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Fultz and Breslow - what it is

UPDATE:  I've posted some general comments about Breslow from our sister Red Sox site in this FanPost, worth a quick read. [Jay]

One of the Nicks -- I believe it was Iron Nick, not Steel Nick -- helpfully posted a link to this Comment I made a couple weeks ago.  Many took that post as sort of a blanket defense or thumbs-up for Fultz, and I guess it's kind of the former but not really the latter.  Some may not have taken full notice of this paragraph:

Main thing to remember about Fultz is that his status is no different than it was last year, or than Oldberto's last year, or Borowski's this year or last.  He's only on a one-year deal, he's only making $1.5 million, and if he struggles and/or they have a reasonable replacement for him, they'll DFA him and never look back.

I don't see this as an awesome prediction (it isn't even follwed by a "Boo Thome"), it's just kind of stating the obvious.

My guess is that a lot of the negativity surrounding Fultz is just based on the fact that he's never impressed anyone and was a free agent signing.  Most folks here are savvy enough not to scream at Shapiro every time he makes a minor league signing, understanding that these signings are insignificant when they don't pan out, and nicely significant when they do.  We know that Shapiro doesn't envision the likes of Tyner and Elarton as centerpieces of a championship club.

But we still perhaps pin too much importance on our minor major-league free agents -- witness the vitriol sometimes directed at the likes of Hollandsworth, Rouse, Michaels, Carroll and Aaron Fultz.  These guys are just bit players, "role players" in the parlance of the game, and it just happens that role player money has gone slightly north of $2 million.  It's crazy, but it doesn't change the fact that they're role players.

What I'm getting at is that while the difference between a major league deal and a minor league deal is significant, it isn't enormous.  Julio didn't get Fultz's deal, and Fultz didn't get Borowksi's -- and none of them thankfully got Baez's deal -- but the performance differences aren't great -- obviously.  The minor league deal guys are a few good weeks away from the majors, and even Borowski is just a couple of bad months from being DFA'ed.  And every one of these guys has been more effective than Baez, who got $19 million.  (This is of course the very reason to go bargain-hunting for relievers -- the trashbin cumulatively has far more raw effectiveness left in it than the mid-tier free agent market for relievers -- but I digress.)

So that's the first broad point.  The second broad point is that we never really get a non-ridiculous sample size when it comes to relievers.  My comments earlier in the month essentially defended Fultz, but only to say, based on the numbers, there's little if any reason to hate the guy.  But how much do the numbers tell us about a sporadically used reliever?  Very little.  With samples this tiny -- including all Spring Training numbers -- you have to rely on the scouts being on the ball with their evaluations, because the numbers just can't tell you anything with even a small amount of confidence.

Fultz's option was picked up, which meant only that based on what the Indians saw out of him last season, they felt he was worth giving another very-minor major-league deal for 2008 -- nothing less, nothing more.  After the past three weeks, however, they felt they could dump him and not regret it -- but as always, the decision isn't based just on the player's performance alone, it's based on all the available options.  Part of the utility of picking up Fultz's option is, simply, we don't know that a better option will present itself, either on the free agent market, or on the waiver wires, or in a trade, or from our own minor league system, i.e., some other lefty showing up looking like the second coming of Rafael Perez.  Fultz looked terrible -- not just in the numbers, but in the eyes of the team's evaluators -- and also! a better option presented itself in Breslow.

Okay, then, Fultz is gone.  And this one part of the prediction I will take credit for:  They didn't hesitate to do it.  (And let's pause for a moment of silent appreciation that our club is run by grownups.)  (Thank you.)

As for comparing the two, I would speculate that even beyond his Spring struggles, the Indians really were not thrilled with Fultz in the specific role of LOOGY anyway.  The Indians philosophically seem more oriented toward finding all-around good relievers rather than one-out relievers, but that doesn't mean they don't want a reliever who can dispatch lefties reliably.  Given the composition of the rest of the bullpen, and specifically the desire to continue using Perez for more general late-inning work, they really need a guy with LOOGY potential moreso than just another decent lefty.

And I say this not just because of Fultz's track record but because of Breslow's.  In his brief major league career, Breslow has faced 41 lefties and struck out 11 of them.  In Triple-A Pawtucket, he racked up 14.37 K/9 against lefties in 2007, holding them to a 784 OPS despite a horrendously unlucky .455 BABIP.  A year earlier, he had 11.40 K/9 against lefties.  The two-year totals are 52 K, 15 BB, 4 HBP, and only 1 HR in about 165 PA.  Also worth noting, he apparently doesn't do it with groundballs, which given our inconsistent infield is probably a good thing.

Of course Breslow is out of options, which is irritating, but he's also cheap -- as in, cheap for the foreseeable future.  If we can put this guy back together, we've got him clear through 2013, ages 27-33, and he won't even hit arbitration until 2011.  And remember, this is a guy with some decent career minor league numbers on his résumé -- 9.84 K/9, 0.69 HR/9.  I think based on contract status alone, you probably have to take Breslow over Fultz, and eating the $1.5 million is just a small blip in that decision.

So that's my take.  They're ditching Fultz because they can, and because they always knew they could, and because a better option presented itself in Breslow.  And they like Breslow for Fultz's old job -- I think -- because they think he's going to give lefties real fits up there.  And just like a minor league deal, it's no big thing if it doesn't work, but if it does work, it could pay off nicely -- and not just in 2008.

And if it doesn't work out?  They'll DFA him, move on to the next guy, and never look back.

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Comments

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Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
"...but if it does work, it could pay off nicely -- and not just in 2008..."

Boo Thome!

by Brick. on Mar 25, 2008 1:18 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Basically right, although I'd add, as someone pointed out elsewhere, that Shapiro made reference to the deterioration of Fultz' pitching after he got hurt last year (which carried over into Spring, to their disappointment).   Calling Breslow a "better option" only makes sense in that context.  Fultz WAS a better pitcher than Breslow, or they thought so, anyway, when they signed him last year.  He had had some major league success, and so on.  But, he dropped off to the point that a pitcher who they wouldn't have considered a better option in the past now became one.  I don't think they would have dropped Fultz completely if he was pitching as he did at the beginning of last season.

by peter m on Mar 25, 2008 1:18 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Breslow was not available when they signed Fultz a year ago.  I doubt very much the Indians would have chosen Fultz over Breslow at that time, just based on contract status and track record.

by Jay on Mar 25, 2008 1:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Calling Breslow a "better option" only makes sense in that context.

It makes sense in the entire above context laid out by Jay - as well as in regards to the injury.

Fultz WAS a better pitcher than Breslow, or they thought so, anyway, when they signed him last year.

Not necessarily.  They weren't equally available options at the time.  If Breslow was a free agent to be signed, like Fultz, you could possibly draw that conclusion.

"A year ago at this time, we probably never could have gotten him," Shapiro said.

I don't think they would have dropped Fultz completely if he was pitching as he did at the beginning of last season.

They would - if there was a better option than that available.

by Brick. on Mar 25, 2008 1:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Pick, pick.  No, Breslow wasn't available last year, but I tend to doubt that the Indians would have signed a pitcher with a total of 28 major league innings and a reputation for being erratic INSTEAD of Fultz, who had a track record (albeit a so-so one).  They certainly had interest in him before, and said so.  So, they might have signed him had he been available, but I don't think as a guy they were committed to putting on the major league roster (which is what they did when they signed Fultz).  Bear in mind that they didn't have Raffie Perez as an established major leaguer last year, so Fultz was signed to give them a lefty who was a legitimate major league left-handed reliever.  And, he more or less was, at least for a while.  We're still talking about Breslow with all kinds of ifs and maybes, correctly, so he's not at that level yet, I don't think.  I hope he gets there.

Breslow is probably a better bet now than Fultz (I'm all for this move); but, not because he got lots better (I haven't seen data that say that -- maybe it's out there?), but because Fultz got worse.

by peter m on Mar 25, 2008 1:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
i'm sure if they could have, they would have tried to get BOTH of them last year.

by Brick. on Mar 25, 2008 1:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Excellent.  It's nice to put lay out these moves in context.  Otherwise, fans (and writers) fall into thinking that it's all black and white:  Fultz was in the good column, and then stopped performing so he's moved to the bad column, and the Front office went out to find a replacement.

Rather, the front office is always looking, and readjusting their valuation of players.

By the way, I still think the bit player moves deserve full analysis.  You build a good team by acquiring core players through the construct of a good scouting system, thorough player evaluations, good coaching, careful trades, having a financial long term plan, etc.  But you have to round out the team with short term signings.  I admit to being overly zealous in my Graves anger a couple of years ago, but not because it doesn't impact the team.  The last reliever added, and the reserve infielder, matter enough to worry about.  Of course, there's a difference between analyzing bit players and freaking out over them.

by dgcambridge on Mar 25, 2008 1:42 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
And speaking of core players, there are five Indians on Neyer's list.  Of course, one of those will be elsewhere next year.

by dgcambridge on Mar 25, 2008 2:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Couple of mild surprises there  -- Asdrubal and Jhonny.  And, no Fausto, although he's only got one year under his belt (Asdrubal?).  And, no Betancourt -- I thought he was the Indians MVP last year, and has been good for several years.

by peter m on Mar 25, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
That article is set up for the next five seasons, so i could see why Betancourt isn't on it (he'll be 33 this year). But I am surprised AsCab made it over Carmona too.

by talonk on Mar 25, 2008 3:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
He also exaggerated how key moving Asdrubal to SS would be to increasing his value. Sure it goes up but not by a wide margin. Median SS and median 2b last year in the AL were very similar offensively. It's even odder considering if he is predicting Cabrera to move to SS with that rankings, then why the hell does he have Peralta at 21? 3b that hit 21 HR's are pretty yawn worthy.

Also his Matt Kemp comment was colossally stupid.

by Joe. on Mar 25, 2008 3:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Yeah, that will make an interesting chat question.

Hard to complain about most folks not making considering, just for one example, David Ortiz is not on the list.

by Jay on Mar 25, 2008 3:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Five more years of Ortiz?  He could pull in a couple MVPs, or collapse on his knee tomorrow.

Looking at the list again, he has an absolutely different approach to pitchers.  He has plenty of hitters up there with less than two (even zero) years of ML experience.

On the other hand, I counted only 7 pitchers (quickly, I may have missed one or two), and they all have multiple effective years.  The least experience was Verlander.  And he's less concerned about taking pitchers 27 and up.  None of the young Yankee arms, or Dodger or Giant arms.  Though it's hard to pick a better example than Carmona.

The lesson: young hitters are much more projectable than young pitchers.  Put another way: it's very rare to find a pitcher at any age that you should be willing to gamble 5 years on.  

by dgcambridge on Mar 25, 2008 3:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Betancourt is damned good but unlikely to have a season that good in the next five, and there's only so valuable that a reliever can be.  How many made the list?

by Jay on Mar 25, 2008 3:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
None. The omission definitely made sense.

by Joe. on Mar 25, 2008 3:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Actually, I'm surprised there are so few pitchers (and no relievers). Even if Betancourt isn't on there, why not Papelbon or Putz, for example.  Pitching IS hard to predict, but if the question is picking guys to build a team around, I'd think you'd want to focus more on pitching (which is what the Indians have been doing, no?)

by peter m on Mar 25, 2008 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
"What teams should focus on" and "what kinds of players make good five-year bets" are not exactly the same subject, though obviously they are related.

In fact, it's precisely the unreliability of pitchers over the long haul that makes it so critical to continually focus on pitching, always looking to acquire and develop more of it, never assuming you have enough.

Also?  Any time anybody tries to break down every player's value to wins or runs, it always turns out that position players generally contribute far more runs and wins than pitchers do -- even starting pitchers, let alone relievers, and even if you're only looking at marginal wins or runs over replacement.

This suggests that while it's hard to stockpile too much pitching, top position players really are more valuable as individual players over the long haul than pitchers are.

by Jay on Mar 25, 2008 5:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
A guy who starts 150+ games should be considered more valuable than a pitcher, who normally maxes out at 35 starts or 80 games relieved.

The contracts don't always reflect this, but that's the way the dollar crumbles.

by talonk on Mar 25, 2008 5:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
So, the Indians were right under John Hart, and the Tigers are right, now -- stack the line up and find the pitching where you can?  Can't say I agree with that.  

by peter m on Mar 25, 2008 5:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
No, I agree pitching is what wins championships. But hitting is more sustainable and more predictable.

But let's say you are part of a group of 10 guys working on a year long project. Seven of you work all year on the project (and you are one of the seven). The other three guys chip in one week every two or three months. But all 10 of you split the $$ evenly. Doesn't seem fair to me, but the mlb union is very very strong and that's the way it is.

by talonk on Mar 25, 2008 5:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
I don't think this a matter of the union, just the market.  

Even if the seven guys do more work, you've got look at the supply and demand of the three guys.

by dgcambridge on Mar 25, 2008 5:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
And in real life, that is true. Those three guys are probably working on a few other projects in the meantime. But in baseball, it is a fact that a SP can only contribute 1/5 of the time. They are not working on any other projects.

But that really is neither here nor there. My opinion is that everyday players are more easy to evaluate. Sorry I got off topic again.

by talonk on Mar 25, 2008 6:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Jhonny at 21 blew my mind. I was backing that guy until I was blew in the face in 2006 but ranked over Jake Peavy? WHAT?

by Joe. on Mar 25, 2008 3:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
He's 26 years old and a power hitter at a position that doesn't have many. If he stays at shortstop, he's going to remain a valuable player over the next 5 years.

by Ryan on Mar 25, 2008 3:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Oh I agree. He's excellent and unbelievably underrated. But Jake Peavy is arguably the best pitcher in baseball.

by Joe. on Mar 25, 2008 3:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Except for pitching in an extreme pitcher's park and a terrible division.  He may nonetheless be the best, but it's hard to be sure.

In related news, Todd Helton will not be getting into the Hall of Fame.

by Jay on Mar 25, 2008 4:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
That's why I said arguably. He's no Chris Young. The peripherals and the road statistics back this up. The guy had a 2.57 ERA on the road and over 9 k/9. I'm sorry but if I was offered Jhonny for Peavy, I make that deal and I celebrate.

by Joe. on Mar 25, 2008 4:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
also, Todd Helton was a really weird comparison to use. Peavy's splits are next to nothing (if we are counting 2006 as an anomaly, which it is looking very much like) where as Helton's are much more pronounced.

by Joe. on Mar 25, 2008 4:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
By the way, I still think the bit player moves deserve full analysis.  ...[snip]...  The last reliever added, and the reserve infielder, matter enough to worry about.  Of course, there's a difference between analyzing bit players and freaking out over them.

Obviously, I agree they deserve full analysis -- I did just write a dozen paragraphs about this move.  It's just the sad tendency of fans to get angry at role players, that's where it doesn't make any sense.  They matter, but they don't matter that much, and it doesn't make sense to act like Hollandsworth 2006 is a disappointment on a scale with Peralta 2006.

by Jay on Mar 25, 2008 5:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Excellent.  I look forward to "Mastny and Julio - where it's at" and "Marte and Barfield - how it be."

by dgcambridge on Mar 25, 2008 5:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Good writeup. I liked the deal too. Breslow looks like he might end up being better than pre injury Fultz and I was one of the few who thought preinjury Fultz was pretty good. Shapiro has seemingly made another great under the radar move.

by Joe. on Mar 25, 2008 3:06 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
My post would have been much shorter, Jay:

Left-handed relievers of unknown quantity are as plentiful and interchangeable as copies of a USA Today in the lobby of a Holiday Inn Express. Any questions?

by Thommy on Mar 25, 2008 7:21 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
You mean, of unknown quality, right?

Otherwise, yes, hell of a good summary.  But you know me, I have to cover the systemic and sociological aspects as well.  And of course the Dickensian aspect.

by Jay on Mar 25, 2008 7:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
quality, quantity...whatever it takes.

by Thommy on Mar 25, 2008 8:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To quote Josef Stalin, "Quantity has a quality all its own".

by Jackdaw on Mar 27, 2008 2:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
So, if we're talking Dickensian aspect, then you just Templetoned up all those stats, right?

by NickFantana on Mar 25, 2008 10:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is
Every last one of those stats is in my notes.

by Jay on Mar 25, 2008 11:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Fultz and Breslow - what it is

More just checking to see if I still exist in SB world. By the way, you guys are handsome.

by rog on Mar 26, 2008 8:40 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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