Prospects That Matter – March 2008
Yes, the glorious day has finally arrived. After a 20-month hiatus, I'm finally excavating and updating my ramshackle prospect ranking system, formerly known as the Exciting Prospects Standard and now redubbed with the more apt (but no more humble) moniker, Prospects That Matter. Actually, it's not really a ranking system, it's actually a separating-the-men-from-the-boys system; the specific rankings are secondary, and frankly, I don't give them a great deal of thought. It is perhaps best described as a way of organizing the way we look at our young talent.
Why the new name? Well, my friends, I'm older now, and wiser, or perhaps more tolerant, or perhaps just lazier. If you really find Chris Gimenez exciting, I'm not going to argue with you about it. If, on the other hand, you want to tell me that Chris Gimenez should actually matter to an Indians fan, well, then, you might just have a fight on your hands. The aim of the system remains the same, and that is, for a diehard Indians fan who doesn't follow the minors closely, to identify those prospects that are really worth knowing about -- and not to bother that fan with guys who are merely over-hyped or over-drafted.
PTM attempts to identify: Which guys are the most likely to contribute to the Indians winning a pennant? Which guys are going to contribute the most, and which guys are going to contribute the soonest? To that end, the PTM player must meet one of these criteria:
- In Triple-A: succeeding at age 25, solid at 24, or younger.
- In Double-A: succeeding at age 23, solid at 22, or younger.
- In High-A: succeeding at age 21, solid at 20, or younger.
- In Low-A: succeeding at age 19, solid at 18, or younger.
- In short-season leagues: solid at age 17 or younger.
Triple-A players making this list are major-league-ready or nearly so and basically just waiting for an opportunity, while the High-A players on the list generally will be fairly high ceiling, and their success at such a young age makes them fairly likely to be a good major leaguer. The Double-A players are a nice mix of readiness and likely success. "Successful" generally means that he performed well enough to be promoted, and I try to take a nuanced view of a player's stats. I start with basic productivity but keep a careful eye on peripherals, and particularly on K rates for pitchers.
Statements from team officials may also be considered, but ultimately the choice to promote or not to promote a player is more credible than any verbal statement. Scouting reports are taken into account, but mostly with an eye toward projecting a player's defensive skills and likely role in the majors, which affects how good his bat will have to be in order to make it – in other words, in terms of pure hitting skills, the bar is lower for a standout defender like Brad Snyder than it is for a merely solid guy like Ben Francisco. Injuries are always considered a negative factor, and in the PTM context, I never consider injuries a mitigating factor for a mediocre performance.
In 2006, PTM stubbornly championed guys like Carmona, AstroCab and Lofgren before they were fashionable, Adam Miller even when he was injured, solid successes like Garko and frustrating cases like Ferd and Marte – the system is fundamentally better at predicting who will earn a shot in the majors than who will succeed there, though it may be no worse than other systems in that regard. Recent draft picks without track record and over-21 types dominating in the low minors were excluded without mercy, a tendency of PTM that irritated some fans in 2006 and will continue to irritate in 2008. PTM preaches patience, not only at the plate but in our prospect rankings. There are some guys I don't like leaving certain guys off the list any more than you do, but if the performance is there, those guys will jump on the list soon enough.
A note about the ages listed – it's their "seasonal age" for 2007, not 2008, listed that way because it's based on that age that we're evaluating their achievements so far. I also pay little mind to "official" rules as to what makes a prospect. If a player is 25 or younger and not a fully established major leaguer, he's a prospect in every way that actually matters to a team, or to a fan.
Prospects That Really, Really Matter — players who've met PTM criteria at an excessively young age.
- Asdrubal Cabrera – 21, SS-2B, thrived in Double-A and was solid in the majors. As if you didn't know.
- Aaron Laffey – 22, RHP, not a lot of strikeouts but also not a lot of walks, performed well and "equivalently" from Akron to Cleveland.
- Adam Miller – 22, RHP, struggled with injuries but way ahead of the curve in Triple-A. Still very much a potential ace.
- Jensen Lewis – 23, RHP, unusual to rank a reliever this high, but Lewis truly dominated in Akron, and then Buffalo, and then Cleveland, and then against the Yankees in the playoffs, with an ERA under 2.00 and K rate over 10. Frankly, this ranking might not be high enough — no other Indians prospect performed at this high of a level in 2007.
- Andy Marte – 23, 3B, and you don't have to like it. For one thing, once a guy has made the list, he only graduates by getting too old or succeeding in the majors. Try to imagine 2007 was Marte's first season in Triple-A — 766 OPS, 23-year-old third baseman, it's actually pretty good. But of course, his actual first season in Triple-A was at age 21. His three-year total, ages 21-22-23, are .268/.337/.473.
- Chuck Lofgren – 21, LHP, those who were disapointed by his season in Akron were forgetting how young he is to be an above-average pitcher at this level. Lofgren will spend his age-22 season in Double-A, and he's a lefty with better stuff than Laffey or Sowers.
Prospects That Really Matter — those who beat the PTM criteria with room to spare.
- Jeremy Sowers – 24, LHP, and like Marte, he would make the list based only on his age and 2007 numbers alone, but the high ranking is for his dazzling 2006 performance at age 23.
- Sean Smith – 23, RHP, not turning any heads but had a very solid season in Triple-A.
- Shin-Soo Choo – 24, OF, obviously slowed by injuries, but as with Sowers, we'd do well not to forget what he did at age 23.
- Eddie Mujica — 23, RHP, also slowed by injuries, and also more impressive in 2006 than in 2007, but check out the great K/BB rates. Still a potential impact reliever if he's healthy.
Prospects That Matter — others who've cleared the bar.
- Nick "Weglarz!" Weglarz – 19, OF, bounced back from injury to make a stellar full-season debut.
- Ben Francisco – 25, OF, improved on his age-24 numbers and made a solid debut in the majors.
- Jordan Brown – 23, 1B, a knee injury reportedly sapped his power, but he still hit .333, and it will be interesting to see how his power develops this season.
- Jeanmar Gomez – 18, RHP, suffocated Dominican Summer League hitters at 16 (2005) and dominated the Gulf Coast League at 17 (2006), although a bit reminiscent of Carmona, you have to wonder how a guy manages a 2.50 ERA with just 5.92 K/9. His full-season debut was merely decent, and he's going to have to show more strikeouts and fewer home runs as he progresses, but he improved in both areas as the season progressed. He'll be starting his age-19 season at High-A, something nobody else on this list has done or will do – youth and progress, that's what we're looking for here. Somebody really needs to do a scouting report on this guy.
- Jeff Stevens – 23, RHP, eye-popping K rates in Double-A and apparently not content to be a footnote, he may well hit the Cleveland bullpen in 2008.
- Carlos Rivero – 19, SS, marginal overall numbers, but a plus defender with a solid walk rate, and a decent amount of pop for a teenage middle infielder.
- John Drennen – 20, CF, not unlike Lofgren, his struggles caused some to:: forget that he was one of the youngest players in his league.
- Hector Rondon – 19, RHP, pitched better than Gomez at Lake County but is a year older, will also start the season in the Kinston rotation.
A few themes emerge on this year's list. For one thing, it's huge, which either means I'm getting more lenient, or the criteria are letting in certain types of players too easily, or that the Indians are justified in their strong confidence about the depth of their farm system, defying most "organizational talent" rankings. A small core of players has been promoted to the advanced-A Kinston club to start the year at age 19 or 20, and it's a happy mix of two pitchers, one skill position player and one power-hitting Canadian. This complements well the small core of college draftees who will converge on Akron in 2008 (with a good shot to make next year's list).
The other theme is guys succeeding in Triple-A at very young ages – not just at 25 but at 22 – but then possibly being stuck there, possibly because of a limited ceiling, possibly because that last jump to majors is the hardest. Spots 5-10 are fairly dominated by a sense of, "Don't give up on me, I'm still young, I still matter!" They all reached Buffalo by 22, and not one of them is 25 yet.
It may be that a future refinement of PTM should raise the bar in some way for Triple-A pitchers in particular, but then again, maybe the bar is just fine. Part of the premise of the system is that a guy who reaches Triple-A at 22 may have the same stats as a low-ceiling 25-year-old, but he's got three whole seasons to figure out how to make that last jump. Some research suggests that unlike a hitter's raw tools, a pitcher's stuff doesn't really improve after age 23, but it takes pretty good stuff just to get this far, and there's more to pitching than just stuff. Something to ponder going forward.
More lists after the jump.
Too Accomplished to be Prospects — the graduates.
- Grady Sizemore – 25, CF, two-time All-Star, Gold Glover, 30/30 threat and crush object.
- Fausto Carmona – 23, RHP, arguably the best starter in the game in his first full season in the majors.
- Jhonny Peralta – 25, SS, questionable range but very solid bat, was stellar in the postseason.
- Rafael Perez – 25, LHP, truly dominated out of the bullpen.
- Franklin Gutierrez – 24, OF, established major league starter, even if not all that well established, superior defense will keep him in the majors even if his bat disappoints.
- Josh Barfield – 24, 2B, and like several guys on the main list, his accomplishments at age 22 and 23 suggest strongly that he will be back
Taken along with the PTM list, the Indians' total collection of significant talent, 25 and under last season, is truly staggering, and the 24 players on the above lists don't even include recent college-draftee luminaries like Beau Mills. Ryan Garko and Tom Mastny also both graduated from PTM with solid first full seasons at age 26.
Too Old To Matter — notable players who are not on the list and not ever gonna be, not a complete list.
- Michael Aubrey – 25, 1B, and wow, hate to see the guy here, but the best I can do is to put him on the top.
- Brad Snyder – 25, OF, and oh, Brad Snyder, Brad Snyder, Brad Snyder. I threw Snyder off the list two years ago -- that is to say, PTM correctly excluded him, and I incorrectly put him on the list anyway because everyone was so crazy about him. He nearly makes it this time, having turned 25 mid-year, owing to his viability as a fourth outfielder. It's doubtful he can ever be a major league starter, but he's got plus range and a plus arm even in CF, and he might hit RHP well enough to make a reasonable platoon option. But he hasn't shown us quite enough yet to state that with real confidence. Sorry, Brad, I wanted to, but fool me once ...
- Brian Slocum – 26, RHP, may have missed his narrow window, like Jason Stanford a few years ago.
- Rich Rundles – 26, LHP, and maybe he will turn out to matter, but PTM says no.
- Ryan Goleski – 25, OF, and hopefully, having gone un-selected in this year's Rule 5, he'll stop blaming other people for his position. Shares this spot honorarily with Brian Barton, who probably isn't coming back and wouldn't have made the PTM list anyway.
- Ryan Mulhern – 26, 1B.
- Jason Cooper – 26, OF.
- Nate Panther – 26, OF, but hey, at least his name is Nate Panther.
- Juan Lara – 26, LHP, with much bigger fish to fry.
- Bubbie Buzachero – 26, RHP.
Prospects That Might Matter At Some Point — notable players with a reasonable shot at making the list next year, not a complete list.
- Beau Mills – 20, 3B-1B, and let's face it, we'll be crushed if he doesn't dominate in High-A and/or make it to Double-A, which is all he needs to do, but there's just not enough in his 2007 numbers to justify putting him on the list yet.
- Tony Sipp – 23, LHP, piles of strikeouts for the Aeros bullpen in 2006 but missed all of 2007 with elbow problems, eventually undergoing Tommy John surgery last July. He'll be out half of 2008, too, and will be nearly 25 by the time he's back, but Tommy John surgery has become remarkably consistent in returning players to their top form, and Sipp was on the verge of the majors when he left. If he smokes Triple-A hitters once he gets back, nobody will be surprised.
- Josh Rodriguez – 22, 2B, very solid prospect, just needs to do it in Double-A.
- Wes Hodges – 22, 3B, very solid prospect, just needs to do it in Double-A.
- Jared Goedert – 22, 2B-3B, very solid prospect, just needs to are you beginning to pick up on the pattern here?
- Reid Santos – 24, LHP, coming off a fine season split between rotation and bullpen, and like Rafael Perez, could move quickly now that he's a full-time reliever.
- Scott Lewis – 23, RHP, followed up a stellar debut in Kinston with a fine season in Akron, but a delicate elbow still had him on very limited pitch counts and sitting out the postseason. He was good enough to make the PTM list outside of his continuing injury problems, which are significant and may never go away.
- Paolo Espino – 20, RHP, made a very fine pro debut at Lake County and has been promoted to Kinston to start his age-21 season.
- David Huff – 22, RHP, a level behind Lewis and also troubled by elbow problems, but while his took out most of his 2007 season, they may be less severe. Huff needs to progress to Akron and excel there and may well do that.
- Wyatt Toregas – 24, C, struggled at the plate in 2007, and while superior defensive skills could take him a long way, he needs to look competent, or at least not overmatched, in Buffalo this season.
- J.D. Martin – 24, RHP, another year removed from surgery, needs to have that breakout season in Buffalo.
- Chris Archer – 19, RHP, opens the season as the youngest player on any full-season roster – well, actually, Jeanmar is six days younger, but still. He's got the stuff, we'll see if he's got the control.
- Matt McBride – 22, C, wields a highly regarded bat but has yet to show it off, and he's out with an injury. He'll rehab in High-A but really needs to face Double-A pitching this season.
- Gregorio Rosario – 18, RHP, still waiting to make the jump to full-season ball and yet obviously, obviously destined to win multiple Cy Youngs.
- Cirilo Cumberbatch – 20, OF, currently at Kinston and just a few months from turning 22, switch-hitter and adequate defender in CF, makes good contact with a solid walk rate but really needs to develop more power to go anywhere. But hey, how'm I supposed to not list a guy named Cumberbatch?
- Chris Gimenez – 24, C-3B-OF, could be carving out an interesting role for himself as a super-utility guy, but needs to do it in Buffalo now.
- Matt Whitney – 23, 1B-3B, and Trevor Crowe – 23, OF. Whitney and Crowe share the final spot in part because you could argue neither guy even belongs on this maybe-next-year list. Either guy would have to achieve something at Triple-A in order to make the list next year, and neither has accomplished anything at Double-A to date.
I think there's a reasonable case that Whitney is already a better hitter than Crowe, who is more or less the epitome of the type of player PTM doesn't like. He's 24 and constantly discussed, but his biggest achievement as a player was having two good months – two! months! – in High-A at age 22. If you didn't know he was supposed to be a top prospect, you certainly would never discover that fact by looking at his numbers. Based purely on the stats, he's done nothing to distinguish himself from the likes of Nate Panther or Stephen Head.
A few final thoughts. I am not a scout, and PTM is meta-evaluation at best, not a real system for evaluating prospects, because we really don't have good information on any of these guys. We're missing high-quality scouting reports, and in fact we see basically no scouting reports that haven't been spun for public consumption. We're missing good splits and game logs to hunt for revealing details, and there is never, ever a reasonable sample size anyway. We're also missing the kind of valuable data on how hard balls are hit that we're starting to get used to using for major leaguers.
Because the data is relatively weak, PTM is just making the best out of what we've got. It is fundamentally econometric, valuing likely and near-term usefulness over daydreams about a young player's ceiling, a concept that is largely subjective even on its best day. And while not purely objective, it has a fundamentally objectivist bent, which means not only the numbers but also valuing what organizations do over what organizations say. I think you will find that there aren't really that many close cases requiring a judgment call, based on the basic rules I've set up.
In sum, PTM is merely ongoing experiment in looking at our young talent through a certain, pre-defined prism, to see what that perspective tells us. I do think that PTM more revealing than other prospect lists, but I also think it has its problems and could use more work. One thing I can say is that whenever someone asks me about a prospect, if he's actually accomplished something in the minors, if he's put up good numbers aside from having beat up on younger players, then I know he's on the list, and if he hasn't, I know he's not. To me, that's a really good first test, and that's why PTM is the way it is.
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umm, awesome, thanks Jay.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 30, 2008 2:35 PM EDT 0 recs
I'll assume that Gregorio Rosario is on another list you're compiling titled "Destined for Multiple Cy Young Greatness."
by NickFantana on Mar 30, 2008 2:38 PM EDT 0 recs
Now we sit back and wait til the Mariners series and have someone innocently link to it over at LL. Or better yet, have it cited as a source in a mainstream publication.
by NickFantana on
Mar 30, 2008 4:47 PM EDT
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Nice.
I'm curious, do you have rough statistical thresholds when you decide whether someone 'succeeded' at a certain level?
by crazymoloh on Mar 30, 2008 3:30 PM EDT 0 recs
It really varies a lot as there are so many things to consider. In a very general way, I'm probably looking for something like a 900 OPS out of an offensive position, 750 out of a skill position, and 825 for the average positions (3B and CF). For Carlos Rivera, a plus defender at shortstop and only 19, a 750 OPS would be fine. For Josh Rodriguez, only a decent 2B and already 22, a 750 OPS would not be fine.
But from there it can vary a lot. For an outfielder, is he a great CF, a solid CF, a fringe CF and good corner OF, a solid corner OF or a fringe OF? Those impressions will factor into whether I think a guy has truly "succeeded" at the plate, because, just for a real obvious example, Gutierrez wouldn't be handed a starting job based on his bat alone, he'd be caddying for some Trotlucci type. So that's an example where even though we don't even need a CF, the fact that Gutierrez is a great CF should lower the threshold for his bat, because that directly reflects how and if he'll be of use in the majors.
I'm looking out more than ever for BIP flukes, giving players more credit if they have a just-okay average but solid secondary numbers. At the same time, I generally won't penalize a guy for having a high BABIP as a hitter, because that can be a legitimate sign that the pitching at that level was simply beneath him -- and we also see guys like Sizemore, who are gifted contact hitters at a very young age and translate that to selectivity later on.
I'll still prefer OBP to slugging, and I especially don't demand big power numbers out of any of the low minors guys, as every almost hitting prospect will gain a lot of power after age 21, and all the players I'm considering at that level are 21 and younger of course. To some extent I've also become more forgiving of low K totals for pitchers in the low minors
by Jay on
Mar 30, 2008 4:13 PM EDT
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I notice there aren't any college players on the 'Too Accomplished to be Prospects' and and 'Prospects that Really, Really Matter List'. Maybe its time that some people in the Indians brain trust realize they're either missing something when it comes to college prospects or that they're overemphasizing college experience.
by crazymoloh on
Mar 31, 2008 12:19 AM EDT
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It's an interesting point, but a pretty small pool ... let's break it down a little bit.
acquired in trades - 5 - Cabrera, Marte, Gutierrez, Sizemore, Barfield
foreign signings - 3 - Peralta, Perez, Carmona
drafted out of college - 1 - Lewis
drafted out of high school - 3 - Laffey, Miller, Lofgren
So there's that -- draft obsession rears its disproportionate head once again. Only half these guys came out of the draft, and only 1/3 were drafted by the Indians.
It's kind of a truism anyway that high school guys have higher ceilings while college guys are closer to the majors -- of the five acquried in trades, three were foreign signings and two were high school draftees, so this isn't really an Indians-specific problem. And isn't everybody always whining about how they want the Indians to do more risky, higher-ceiling drafting?
by Jay on
Mar 31, 2008 12:58 AM EDT
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Jay,
Your thoughts on Tony Sipp, healthy recovery assumed?
Nice to see some love for Sean Smith. He's climbed the ladder without anybody knowing. Not that he's anything special, but it saves you from paying $1M to see what Sidney Ponson has left in case of emergency.
How about the haul of arms from the '01 draft? Talk about TINSTAPP. Martin, Denham, Dittler, Foley, and Sean Smith. Looks like the best of that group, Alan Horne, was the one that got away.
by xrickx on Mar 30, 2008 4:03 PM EDT 0 recs
Sometimes I think I want J.D. Martin to make it just so we can stop talking about the trainwreck of that 01 draft class.
Re: Smith, my thoughts exactly.
Sipp was a careless omission, I need to add him to the piece, but it's actually a tricky question as to where he goes. Based on his 2006 performance, he clearly deserved a spot on the main list, as he really dominated in the second half, during which he turned 23. But I haven't ever dealt with the situation where a guy who has made the list misses a year entirely because of surgery. The Indians don't plan to put him into full minor games until July, a year after his surgery, and by that point he'll be 25.
So it seems to me that he really belongs on the "maybe next year" list, since even his breakout season came amid injuries and rehab stops.
by Jay on
Mar 30, 2008 4:26 PM EDT
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Thanks for the incredible piece. Need to give it multiple reads, but as far as the 22-year old 3-headed monster that just needs to do it in Akron (Josh Rodriguez, Hodges, Goedert), are they expected to split the at bats more or less evenly in Akron (across 2B and 3B with Goedert splitting the at bats between both positions)?
by cheech99 on Mar 30, 2008 4:04 PM EDT 0 recs
I think they're keeping Rodriguez at SS for now. Also, I think Goedert is slated to start at Kingston.
by dgcambridge on
Mar 30, 2008 6:25 PM EDT
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I think that's right, and I didn't mean to confuse that point. My sense of the scouting reports is that he's expected to end up at 2B, and I expect him to hit well enough to be valuable there.
by Jay on
Mar 31, 2008 12:59 AM EDT
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That Akron troika is going to be fun to watch, considering that they're all essentially the same age and trying to separate themselves all in the same year...all in the same infield.
by The DiaTriber on
Mar 31, 2008 9:27 AM EDT
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This is essentially exactly how I look at prospects, except I'm a lot more inclined to ignore "success" if there's no peripherals-i.e. all the fights I've been about the relative uselessness of Jeremy Sowers.
by afh4 on Mar 30, 2008 4:12 PM EDT 0 recs
What, no Frank Herrmann? Do you realize he went to Harvard?
by ClarkM on Mar 30, 2008 4:17 PM EDT 0 recs
I obviously love this stuff. No love for Scott Lewis anywhere? He's a month older than Smith and hasn't yet had a season at AAA (largely because he was a college draftee instead of a high school one), but his numbers are far superior. Of course that lat strain he has doesn't bode well...
Others I'd probably add somewhere into the mix...David Huff and Paolo Espino. Huff has somehow (injury) turned into the forgotten 1st round pick. If he can stay healthy this season I expect we'll be talking more about him. Espino's 20 and spent last season in Lake County, so I can understand his exclusion...but his numbers were pretty nice (116K, 31BB, 108IP).
Also, Trevor Crowe clearly possesses some sort of X-factor that isn't visible to us. I agree that looking at his numbers, there is very little to be excited about...and yet smart people in the Indians organization are excited about him...something which I don't think can be discredited.
by APV on Mar 30, 2008 5:08 PM EDT 0 recs
For those of you wishing to argue more over Jay's exclusions, here is some more ammo. Here's a link to the end of Tony Lastoria's Top 50 prospects series which is nice in its depth and detail. Here's a link to a top 75 list I put together in the dark days of winter (consider it as a name-hyperlink to stats resource as much as anything)...
by APV on
Mar 30, 2008 5:17 PM EDT
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Thanks, that's so helpful.
By the way, you forgot Jensen Lewis.
by Jay on
Mar 30, 2008 5:41 PM EDT
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Happy to arm the troops. I think I considered Jensen as having already graduated into the majors....
by APV on
Mar 30, 2008 5:52 PM EDT
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Well, I guess I can't complain since I also made up my own eligibility rules. We should perhaps put together a giant chart of all the rankings, with your list and mine modified to conform to the standard.
by Jay on
Mar 30, 2008 5:55 PM EDT
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My list is about as meaningless as they come. I was just bored and cold one day and decided to put together a list of every player worth anything in the Indians system and then put a pretty arbitrary order to them. Yours is much better.
by APV on
Mar 30, 2008 5:57 PM EDT
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I love that piece, but I get SO sick of reading "his velocity consistently sits in the 88-91 range." Doesn't anybody in this organization have a present participle fastball?
by fleerdon on
Mar 30, 2008 8:49 PM EDT
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I agree, APV, it's that the scouts love Crowe, isn't it?
by dgcambridge on
Mar 30, 2008 6:27 PM EDT
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This may have been already posted, but it's hard to beat this classic mythical story from Lastoria on Weglarz:
In his second at bat, while he was in the on-deck circle he turned to Kinston manager Chris Tremie and smiled and said "I'm taking this one out." Tremie playfully responded and said, "Do it. Don't say it. Do it." Weglarz turned to right field and said, "See that Carraba's sign over the right field wall? I'm hitting it." Tremie responded, "Tell you what, if you hit that Beef O'Brady's sign deep over the right-center wall, I'll buy you dinner." Nick smiled and walked to the plate.
You'll have to follow the link to see the finish, as if you don't know how it ends.
by dgcambridge on Mar 30, 2008 6:18 PM EDT 0 recs
I heard he fashioned his baseball bat out of a 450 yr old Canadian Oak tree that he chopped down only using his hands. Then I heard he went and used that bat to post a .892 OPS in the Sally league.
by hans on
Mar 30, 2008 6:23 PM EDT
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I heard it was carved from a tree that had been struck by lightning and that he's named it "Wonder Boy."
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Apr 2, 2008 2:02 PM EDT
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I hear they installed new bathroom facilities system wide in preparation for Weglarz...
by APV on
Mar 30, 2008 6:24 PM EDT
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Well that left me more than a bit aroused.
I swear, next year is it.
by fwembt on
Mar 30, 2008 6:31 PM EDT
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I bet if he wasn't such a butcher in the field, he would be a top prospect already. Most guys don't show the hitting skills Nick showed at such an early age.
by Joe. on
Mar 30, 2008 6:51 PM EDT
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I was psyched about Weglarz from the moment we drafted him, just as I was with Beau Mills as a very young college pick. I just think for all the savvy and smarts out there, youth still tends to get under-emphasized, even by the real experts, when it comes to evaluating how projectable prospects are.
by Jay on
Mar 30, 2008 7:13 PM EDT
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Jeff Harris has a great work ethic and will make you regret leaving him off this list. Seriously, this is tremendous. I only wonder if Jeff Stevens might deserve to be a little higher on the list, it seems like he may have the chance to leapfrog Mujica this year.
I swear, next year is it.
by fwembt on Mar 30, 2008 6:42 PM EDT 0 recs
Great list, but I don't really see how Carmona was possibly the best starter in baseball last year. I just hope his upward trend in strikeouts continues.
by Joe. on Mar 30, 2008 6:45 PM EDT 0 recs
Sometime I'll dig up the argument for you. We had our own SBN Awards, voting for Cy Young and everything else, and I did a pretty thorough examination of the top seven AL starters. By the time I was done, I was convinced that Carmona very narrowly had the best season of all of them.
by Jay on
Mar 30, 2008 7:15 PM EDT
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Some of the key points were overall run prevention, number of quality starts and "high quality" starts. He simply gave his team the most and best chances to win games.
by Jay on
Mar 30, 2008 7:16 PM EDT
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Thanks, Jay, this list is very helpful, and well done. It helps a lot to see the "other" lists, to really illustrate the criteria used.
Just thinking out loud (don't take as criticism)- I guess we'll always have less college players on your PTM list, because the organization generally seems to have their college 22 year olds at Lake County and Kinston. So their window doesn't open until 23 at Double A. Does this suggest that college players entering the pros at 22 (their first full season) are behind the curve? Should the organization challenge more of them by starting them higher?
(btw, small typo in McBride's line)
Anyway, great stuff. I'm sure Lastoria will send you a picture that he's taken, if you wanted.
by dgcambridge on Mar 30, 2008 6:54 PM EDT 0 recs
You're basically right about the college guys, except in a case like Mills where a guy gets drafted at 20, or in a case like Aubrey or Guthrie where they send him to Akron for his full-season debut.
Of course it is tempting to relax the restrictions in this area a little, but there are at least two very good reasons not to. First, it is pretty successful at weeding out guys who never do much above Akron, or even at Akron, so it's simply useful. Second, their reputation and scouting is largely based on their skills translating well to wood bats. For me, that element of doubt makes it a lot less tempting to twist the simplicity of the system.
And again, if they're really that good, they'll make the list next year, and still a year or two ahead of their big-league debut in almost every case.
by Jay on
Mar 30, 2008 7:45 PM EDT
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Jay, thanks, I really like this type of list in that it's fan-centric, and focuses immediately on players that have a good chance to eventually contribute, and does not use the normal "prospect" bar of x # of innings or at bats.
The emphasis on "age at level" also adds much needed clarity to performance - a guy who's had several years of mediocre A-ball only to have a great season eventually is simply not the prospect another guy is who puts up the same numbers in his first year at that level.
The only refinement I would suggest is to weight "number of games played as a pro". For example, Michael Aubrey has been in the system more than 4 years, but has only played sporadically in a 100 or so games over the last 3 seasons. Nobody doubts he has ML tools and can contribute at the top level - if only he can stay on the field. If he remains healthy for the whole of '08, its not way out there to come up with a scenario where he could make a decent contribution to the parent club next year or even this year at some point.
By the same token, its tough to weigh preps and college guys the same at the A level, since its almost always the first pro at bats for college guys. Kouzmanoff and Garko quickly showed they had advanced hitting tools that could soon play at the ML level, but they were too old to "qualify" given the criteria above.
Just my take - given a little more weight to the actual amount of play, I'd put Aubrey and Goedert in the "prospects that matter" category.
by mcrose on Mar 30, 2008 7:44 PM EDT 0 recs
I have doubts about Aubrey's ability to contribute at the ML level, injured or not. It's not as if he's always been an uber prospect-he's only really raked at any level once he's gotten much too old for the level. Frankly, the results have never truly matched the hype when viewed in the context of age and level. And he's a first basemen. Stats are here: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/michael-aubrey.shtml
There's no reason, in my mind, to assume he's major league ready or even that he's going to destroy at AAA. Obviously, he grades out well with scouts but that's a whole other can of worms.
Also, your recollection of Kouzmanoff seems a little off. He took quite a while to take off considering his age-much slower than Garko anyway. It wasn't until his huge breakout year that he showed that he obviously was a professional hitter. Garko hit earlier, but struggled as he went up; in fact, his ML OPS is higher than his AAA one (eyeballing it).
My head's not clear enough right now to decide what equates succeeding on the strength of bat as a college hitter, but I think a better example of it than Kouz or Garko is Ryan Braun:
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/B/Ryan-Braun-1.shtml
Obviously, that's one end of the spectrum. Kouz and Garko are probably sitll on it just way at the other end.
by afh4 on
Mar 30, 2008 8:18 PM EDT
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I guess that's what I'm saying - that a guy with the overall tools and initial projection like Aubrey shouldn't be judged strictly by context of age and level when he's constantly injured. When he's had (rare) extended periods of health, he's been quite good. I've never heard or read anything other than he's a ML caliber first baseman, and has the combination of plate discipline, contact and power that are the basis for ML projection offensively. My sense is that without the injuries, he would be our 1B right now instead of Garko. He may never be able to stay on the field long enough to make a contribution, but if he stays healthy he'll be on some ML roster at some point. He sure made an impression over the last month, with Wedge commenting that he has ML tools right now, he just "needs to prove he can stay on the field".
As far as Kouz, he hit .330+ and .920 ops+ his first two years before his AA breakout, with a half-year of injuries thrown in. Seems to me he hit from the get go.
My overall point is that the very important age/level context is just that - context. There are service time issues that should also be considered in evaluation and projection. For example, a 22 yr old raking in high-A in his fifth pro year might be evaluated differently than a first year 22 yr old at the same level with the same numbers.
by mcrose on
Mar 31, 2008 12:26 AM EDT
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I guess that's what I'm saying - that a guy with the overall tools and initial projection like Aubrey shouldn't be judged strictly by context of age and level when he's constantly injured.
I am taking into account his injuries. I'm taking them into account as a bad thing.
PTM isn't meant to be a final judgment on each prospect, it's just one way of looking at them, and I think it's a useful one.
When he's had (rare) extended periods of health, he's been quite good.
There's a simple problem with that statement, namely, it's absolutely false. For one thing, I'm not sure he's ever had an extended period of health as a pro. For another, he has never, ever performed well in Double-A -- even disregarding his poor 2007 numbers, before that he was barely above an 800 OPS, and for an age-23-24 first baseman, that is not "well."
The only place his numbers have ever looked good has been in Kinston, and he's always been too old and too good for the Carolina League. By any meaningful standard, his numbers simply have not ever been "quite good."
There are service time issues that should also be considered in evaluation and projection.
First thing is, I think you're just wrong about this. I think service time issues are not particularly relevant, and I think nobody ever says that they are unless they're playing apologist for a college player that they like who hasn't accomplished anything once deprived of aluminum.
I think college players get a different type of development in those years but still a significant one, and if they haven't adjusted fully to pro ball by the end of their first full season, they're not likely to make a dramatic leap after that point. And I doubt you could dig up many examples of successful major leaguers who defy that premise.
Second thing is, again, I'm not looking for PTM to be the be-all-end-all final judgment on these guys. You want to make a be-all-end-all system that considers service time, and that pretends injured guys would have hit as well as "nobody doubts" they would have, then I wish you luck with it. That is simply not what PTM is all about. PTM is about the simple question: Is this guy someone everyone thinks can do great things as a pro, or is he someone who's already started to do those things?
Aubrey hasn't done those things. It's that simple.
by Jay on
Mar 31, 2008 1:21 AM EDT
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Braun is an interesting pick there, because at 22 in High A, the first half of the season, he was hitting about 60 ops points above league average. For reference, that's about what Goedert did in his stint at High A at 22. Nonetheless, Braun was promoted midseason to AA, and ripped up the league. If the Indians put Goedert on a similar track, he'd certainly be starting the season at AA.
I'm certainly not saying that if the Indians were more aggressive with college hitters, they would turn into Ryan Braun.
I'm just saying that Braun is an interesting example, because he didn't really force his way up.
by dgcambridge on
Mar 31, 2008 12:38 AM EDT
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I decided to ignore his 200 odd at bats in high A because the rest of his record is so exemplary. I assume additional information (hard hit ball data, for instance) would show (and did show the Brewers) that he was still obviously superior to the competition.
Frankly, what else can we believe? His other 600 at bats in the minors show that he was smoking the ball, everywhere.
by afh4 on
Mar 31, 2008 12:54 AM EDT
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Sure, that may be true. Braun was a pretty accomplished hitter coming out of college. I just wonder if the Tribe would have moved him the same way. Goedert is back in Kinston. Rodriguez, again with similar performance to Braun, stayed all year in Kinston at 22.
Of course, this again makes it sound like I think that Braun's promotion lead to his breakout.
by dgcambridge on
Mar 31, 2008 1:14 AM EDT
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Aubrey is either a casualty of the system or one of its successes. PTM requires a player actually to have done something to match his rep, and for whatever reason, Aubrey hasn't. It doesn't make any difference if "nobody doubts" it, we have lots of prospect systems that rank players according to the things that "nobody doubts." I would suggest to you that we don't need another system like that.
Aubrey's got almost a full season's worth of Double-A plate appearances, ages 22 through 25, and his OPS at that level is 743. The fact that injuries might be the entire reason for that doesn't make it better, it makes it worse – I consider this a bedrock principle of the system, injuries are just as big of a threat to a prospect's prospects as performance.
It's not farfetched that he'll make a contribution – it's very plausible but just not very likely. It's about as likely as Hafner putting up an 1100 OPS this season, i.e., it wouldn't defy all logic, and it would fit within some of the facts we know, but it's still not a good bet. Aubrey may have superstar talent, but he's looking at a career like Blake or Dellucci now if he's lucky – not that that's bad!
You are mistaken about Garko – he not only made the list, he was ranked at #4 after jumping three levels to end the season at Buffalo at age 23. He also was drafted as a senior, and most elite hitting prospects are drafted as juniors, so he made the list despite starting a year later than most college draftees. Garko did exactly what a college senior has to do in his first full season to make the list, i.e., succeed at Double-A,. College junior draftees generally have two full seasons to accomplish this, and guys like Hodges will be in their second full season in 2008.
Kouzmanoff was a very unusual case. When I made my first list two years ago, he had done very well at High-A but was already 23. He might well have gone on to conquer Akron that season as Garko had, but he got injured – and remember, that can't ever be counted as a plus. When I updated the list at the 2006 All-Star break, he was of course crushing the ball in Double-A, but by that point, he was already 24. And here's what I wrote:
We possibly could create a loophole for Kevin Kouzmanoff, whose numbers are so ridiculous that it seems obvious that he'd be succeeding at Triple-A, were he not blocked by Marte. But if we're going to get creative about the rules, we probably shouldn't start with a prospect who has a persistent injury history. Tony Sipp is another close call; his season has been equal parts great pitching and rehabbing.
I basically stand by that, and I would add that Kouzmanoff had missed a week with back problems that April. But the end of the season, he had crushed the ball for an extra two months, and I think importantly, he had played five full months without an injury for the first time in his career. At that point, even had he not spent a month at Buffalo, I'd have put him onto the list anyway – had I made a list a year ago, and had he still been an Indian. Any reasonable translation using Minor League Equivalents would show that Kouzmanoff's 2006 performance in Akron was better than putting up a 900 OPS at Buffalo.
I think it's kind of funny that you'd speak up for Goedert, who didn't even hit well in High-A at 22. I like him as a prospect generally, but the hype on him is based entirely on dominating Low-A at 22, and frankly, you don't have to be a good prospect to accomplish that. Goedert is clearly behind Hodges and Rodriguez, and had I given it more thought, he probably wouldn't be quite so high on the "maybe next year" list. He just hasn't done it yet.
by Jay on
Mar 30, 2008 8:51 PM EDT
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Hello Jay,
Great piece - again (just like your last list!) :-)
You mention that your system takes into account the fact that injuries also hurt a prospect's chances of contributing, and that I think is the main reason why Goedert didn't hit well in High-A last season. By the time he started showing signs of hitting at High-A, he had the shoulder injury, which took him around 4-6 weeks to come back from.
He didn't seem to get on track until the final month of the season (I don't remember his exact numbers, but I know he hit over .300, with decent OBP and SLG percentages if I remember correctly,) so while I can understand why he wouldn't rate highly on your system right now, I think this season will be a more telling sign of whether he is worthy of that hype (provided he stays healthy, of course,) as it seemed he was showing signs of being an above-average to excellent hitting 2B at High-A when the season ended. Granted, it's a SSS, but I think that strong finish and how well he did at Low-A are the combined reason why many think he'll handle High-A in 2008, and presuming he does, probably be in AA in the second half of this season.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on
Mar 30, 2008 11:31 PM EDT
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That's a good point about Goedert, even if it doesn't change his PTM status. I just looked up his Kinston splits, and he absolutely resumed raking in August and September, 1065 OPS over 74 PA. It is a small sample, and the injury isn't a good thing, but I wouldn't have said he that hasn't performed well against High-A pitching had I realized how well he hit after rehabbing.
by Jay on
Mar 31, 2008 1:06 AM EDT
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Hello Jay,
I think it will be interesting to see with both Goedert and Mills not only how their offense progresses as they advance up the Minor League ladder, but also how strong their defense is at their new positions, and whether they are strong enough to remain at 2B and 3B respectively.
Obviously, if they can, that just boosts their value that much more, and provides more depth at positions that are either a bit thin for us (2B - Rodriguez seems to be the only other notable somewhat ML-close 2B prospect at this time) or has question marks about its depth (3B - questions about Marte's long-term future, questions on how good Hodges really is and whether he can stay truly healthy, as he dealt with some minor injuries in 2007, though he did play a good majority of the season.)
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on
Mar 31, 2008 8:27 PM EDT
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I certainly agree that injuries should be part of the evaluation and projection, and at this point its hard to project extended health for Aubrey, since he has no track record of it. But he's healthy now, apparently, and perhaps even more than Whitney has a chance to reclaim his high status this year. I think you know I'm not arguing against the basic age/level context, I'm just... ok, arguing ... that not all players should be held to the same standard of age and level across the board. Take injuries, for example - when a pitcher blows out his arm or shoulder it takes away his only tool that makes him a prospect, and makes projection extremely iffy when he returns. When a leadoff type gets a knee reconstructed that takes away

