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Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we should just shoot ourselves

Last season, the question was, what's wrong with Pronk?  This season, the question is, is there any reason to think he's coming back?  And by "he" I mean, the old Pronk, the young one, the Old Young Pronk, the Scary Monster.  Hell, you know exactly what I mean, why am I trying to explain it?

All the major projection systems are calling for a mild bounce-back for 2008, but this is cruelly neither the comfort (great chance he'll come mostly all the way back) nor the condemnation (he's toast) that we crave.  I mean, guy has shocking off-year, he'll probably be somewhat better this season, but probably not as good as he used to be -- Duh.  Like I needed your goddam algorithms to tell me that.

UPDATE:  For more goddam algorithms, see also Adam's examination of Hafner's balls in the Diary section, an equally detailed, interesting and futile take on the subject. [Jay]

I've got my gut instincts about players like everybody, but I only bring them out into the sun once in a while.  I just don't believe in arguing about our guts -- my gut is probably bigger than yours but not necessarily better.  And I don't want to just swap guesses all day -- part of the day maybe, just not all day -- and I do want to understand.  What's happening to these players?  What's going to happen?  And how much, and how likely, and why?  So yeah, I do mostly talk about the objective stuff.

But for the love of God, how can we be objective about the Pronk?  I mean, we can, but how can that satisfy us?  The Quest for Pronk is a philosophical stake in our hearts, confounding our minds and flashing our collective ignorance, piled atop a trash-heap of statistics, in bright neon letters.  What do we really know?  NOTHING.  <off>  NOTHING.  <off>  NOTHING.  <off>  NOTHING.

The heart thing, I can't help anyone there.  We're all in it together, and that's the only comfort we're likely to get.  The brain thing, though, maybe I can be of some help.  At the very least, we can take a look at what the projections do say and don't say, and what they can and can't tell us.  As I mentioned earlier, every system will sheepishly offer up a mild bounce-back -- regression, you ain't got a system without it -- but in PECOTA, the multi-year trend line is definitely a decline, as I think it would be in any system considering more than one season forward.  If all you knew about Hafner was what PECOTA knows, 2008 was a great year for a team to have his contract ending.

But let's step back from PECOTA and, possibly, off the ledge,  just for a moment.  Subjectively, I think you have to look at just how strange and rare a case Hafner presents.  It's all well and good to throw up a couple of comps like Boog Powell -- I've done worse -- but good, robust projection involves 100 or more somewhat similar players, because we're trying to peg what types of player Hafner might be.  One or two players do not a typology make, and realistically, Hafner '08 does not have 100 comps.

How many players have ever racked up three straight seasons with .305+ average, .408+ OBP, .583+ slugging, 563+ PA, 162+ OPS+, and 281+ total bases -- reaching every one of those statistical levels, in every one of those three consecutive seasons?  I would guess that there have only been a dozen or so players who've done something like that in the past 20 years (and yes, four of them were Indians).  It's not unheard-of, but we're talking about a handful of players.

Next, we have his 2007 performance, which (regardless of current projections) was completely unexpected.  I don't have the old 2007 projections, but my recollection is that his 2007 line was well below the 10th percentile for his aggregated/weighted comps.  I'll call it 5°, though it could easily have been 2°.  (Maybe I'll ask Nate Silver.)

The point being, here you have a player who is one-percent rare to begin with, having a five-percent result season after that, and the net is one really baffling situation that can't be predicted with much confidence.  It ain't like Konerko or Morneau, Grady or Grandy.  It's a very, very rare case, and you can't tell me that there is a typology for Scary Monster Without Relent For Three Years And Then Bupkis, because there ain't.

As Ryan noted in another thread this morning, we're not looking at an "old player" skill-set here.  Hafner is in the 90th percentile of all hitters based on batting average, so obviously he can't be considered a "low average guy," even if James really meant "average average."  This only works if you think you can map typology based on one season, ignoring all previous, and obviously nobody serious thinks that.  Hafner also shouldn't be considered slow, certainly not old-player slow.  His being a DH has nothing to do with his mobility, as he goes first-to-third quite effectively -- yet another factor that makes him hard to typologize neatly.

Thing is, in the relentless pursuit of comps, there's no doubt Hafner has a bunch of old-player-skills guys mixed into his PECOTA projection, because they have to compare him with somebody.  And even outside of total old-player-skills guys, he's mixed in with slow guys, gimpy guys.  He's not slow and he's not gimpy, but again, the system just has to find some comps.

By the way, his being a very rare case is pretty scant consolation, because it doesn't mean he'll bounce back.  Here's another weird thing about Hafner:  for 2004-2006, his BABIP was trending down (.350, .344, .323) while his OPS+ was trending up (162, 168, 179) -- so you might say that his luck-normalized production was trending up even more dramatically.  In 2007, his BABIP drops to .294, his OPS+ drops to 118.  Chicken?  Egg?  Caviar?  Tofu?  Could he have been exceptionally lucky for three years running?  Let's face it, that is a possibility, because it's a given that we're looking at a very rare circumstance, so possibly some very rare variable element is the main cause.

So where does understanding the rarity fit in with our processing of PECOTA?  Well, objectively, PECOTA is what we've got.  Beyond our guts, and beyond the front office's collective gut, we've got to deal with the range of probabilities that PECOTA lays out for us.  That is the objective answer.  The rarity comes in just to say:  Either he is, or he ain't.  Meaning, either he's never going to be Old Young Pronk again, or he is going to be the Old Young Pronk again and all of this was, more or less, hooey.  N/A.  Thank you, drive on through.

PECOTA actually agrees with this conceptually, if you dig deep enough.  It traces very different career paths for Hafner at the 10°, 25°, 40°, 50°, 60°, 75° and 90° points:

  • 10° and 25° -- a continuing rapid decline, he's finished by the end of 2009.
  • 40° and 50° -- no significant bounce-back, a sharp decline in 2009, and he's finished by the end of 2011.  (The 50° numbers are commonly used as shorthand for "his projection.")
  • 60° -- a decent bounce-back followed by mild decline.  He's not coming back, but he's not toast either.
  • 75° -- a great bounce-back, reasonably regressing for age in 2008 based on his pre-2007 production, and continuing as such.  Still a star hitter through 2011 and solid through 2013.  This is what we expected of him a year ago.
  • 90° -- Scary Monster is back, without even any  age regression.  He's at 2005 levels for 2008 and 2009, then settles into a typical slow decline, remaining a star hitter clear through 2013.

In other words, what PECOTA is really saying is, there's a 25 percent chance that he'll get back to being the player we thought he'd be or better, along with the 60 percent chance that we really have lost the Old Pronk, substantially, for good.  Cold comfort, I know, but isn't it nice to know the Old Young Pronk is in the mix there, and not just infinitesimally?

If there's an up-note to end on here, it's the front office that signed Pronk to that suddenly-humongous-looking four-year, $57 million extension last season, even with his relative slump in full, mediocre swing.  Every team knows more about its players than its fans do, because of scouting and medical information.  The Indians are one of the few teams that also knows more than PECOTA does about the objective data.  The Indians track hard performance numbers that PECOTA doesn't incorporate, and their internal projection systems are every bit as sophisticated and probably moreso.  Diamondview was probably at least PECOTA's equal in this area two years ago -- and then the Indians hired Keith Woolner.

So while there are few front offices worth betting on ahead of PECOTA, the Indians are probably one of them.  And that's basically all I've got for you to pin your hopes on:  One very smart and sophisticated front office, and one totally livable 75th percentile projection from PECOTA.  It ain't much, but it might be just enough for us to keep our sanity through May.

Hat-tip to one of the Nicks and to Chuck, for forcing the closer look.

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Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
Great read, thanks.
Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Mar 7, 2008 2:49 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
Nicely done, Jay.  Very well put together, even if it doesn't tell us as much as we want.

by painaxl on Mar 7, 2008 2:55 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk,
I guess the good news is that we don't NEED the "old Pronk". We can still win the world series with a "slightly better than 07" Pronk.

In the end, that's all I care about. Win it all .. the details don't really matter.

by Toxicadam on Mar 7, 2008 3:04 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
It's time for Pronk to man up and show us something.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Mar 7, 2008 3:05 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk,
Pretty sweet content the last two days now.

by supermarioelia on Mar 7, 2008 3:30 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
...my gut is probably bigger than yours....

Too early for a fat slob joke?

by Brick. on Mar 7, 2008 3:35 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young
What most disturbed me about Pronk's 2007 was that it wasn't a general all-around decline in performance.  Rather, it was a decline in a specific skill - that being driving the ball hard (i.e. "power") - which by the end of the season seemed to bleed into other areas of his approach.  I just don't know enough to say why or how this might have happened or how it might be fixed.  I was sort of clinging to the "secret injury" idea, but Hafner himself has said that wasn't the case.

by APV on Mar 7, 2008 3:52 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young
You see I debated this at the end of the season, that it wasn't any loss of "power" in the true sense, his avg. distance on his HRs was within a foot of his previous season's, but rather pitch selection. He was hitting more GB and (subjectively speaking) swinging and missing at more breaking balls in the dirt, I also think that advanced scouting picked this up and went wild with it. Someone did some pitch f/x data on Pronk a few months ago, if I have time I'll try and find it. (and by time I mean after I drink some more beers and wonder back through some previous posts).

by hans on Mar 7, 2008 4:47 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young
I don't think our observations are mutually exclusive.  My main point was that, beyond the first three weeks of the season (in which Travis hit .381/.494/.651 5HRs) Hafner wasn't making consistent solid contact and therefore wasn't really showing the power we are used to out of him.  From April 25 onwards, he put up a .251/.371/.425 line...still excellent plate discipline, but without the same results.

by APV on Mar 8, 2008 8:30 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
I just wish you put more thought into what you write.  I mean, ten paragraphs?  It's clear you're at a loss for words on this subject.

In all seriousness, thanks for this, I'll sleep better tonight.  (Unless E is un-banned, in which case I'll be refreshing like a maniac.)

by NickFantana on Mar 7, 2008 4:03 PM EST   0 recs

the Old Young Pronk,
Excellent read.  Thanks Jay.

by dgcambridge on Mar 7, 2008 4:08 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
Brilliant stuff, props.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 7, 2008 4:10 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
I'm not really worried about Hafner.

The Indians' had offensively solid if not unspectacular seasons from Garko and Blake, and solid half seasons from Cabrera and Gutierrez.  Positions considered, the Indians' had above average offensive seasons from Peralta, Sizemore, and Vic.  Hafner's season was a far cry from his previous years, but this was Vernon Wells collapse.

I'm most interested in two players:

Grady Sizemore.  His walk rate has climbed to a truly awesome level.  He drew 50 walks in his first full season, yet only two seasons later, he DOUBLED his walk total.  I would not be surprised by 30-35 homeruns this year.

Jhonny Peralta.  It's easy to forget he's only 25.    If he plays defense like he played in the second half, nobody will complain about his defense so long as he produces at his 2007 offensive level.  But I think Peralta's capable of much more.  Again, at only age 25, he has the potential to put up quite a few special offensive seasons.  

If either Sizemore or Peralta explodes in 2008, Hafner's return to form will only be that much sweeter.  

 

by rick on Mar 7, 2008 4:40 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
*this was NO vernon wells type collapse*

doh.

by rick on Mar 7, 2008 4:52 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
Thats a positive way to look at it, but most of the projection systems that have the Indians on par or ahead of Detroit for this upcoming season are doing so with the expectation of some regression toward the mean in the positive direction for Hafner. If there is a legitimate "problem" with Hafner, than you can look at all the prediction analysis you want, but they'll all over-shoot what he'll likely be capable of putting up (once again if there is a legitimate physical reason only).

by hans on Mar 7, 2008 4:52 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
I'll add-on to the well-deserved ass-kissery here. Great stuff, Jay. Helping work go by faster.
Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Mar 7, 2008 4:40 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
Amen.  Three really great diaries over the last two days (Jay's 2 and rick's on BenFran).  Mid-season form!  And an E5 meltdown!  LGT!!

by macasson on Mar 7, 2008 6:41 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
This exact same type of post could have been done about Peralta in spring training last year. In fact, Jay was on the doom and gloom side of Peralta back then (as far as I'm concerned, if someone is considered less valuable than Andy Marte, that is doom and gloom). Peralta worked out fine in 07, but our fears aren't completely gone with Jhonny in 08. I expect that Pronk will be just fine in 08.

When all is said and done, I also expect the 07 season to be more of a downward aberration in career statistics for Sizemore than for Pronk. Grady is going to be a monster this year, so much so, he should be the obvious choice for MVP (though I can't say he will get it, Belle didn't get it when he hit 50 hrs and 50 2bs, Manny didn't get it when he drove in 165 with a .400 OBP, and the NBA is waiting for LeBron to move to Brooklyn before belatedly giving LeBron his). People will look back, and say, Grady had a little dip in 07, but man did he come back strong.

by oxforddave on Mar 7, 2008 5:42 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
If I was doom-and-gloom on Jhonny, it was only immediately after reading something Marc Normandin wrote on the subject.  I later on determined that I thought there was some significant fault in his analysis, but damned if I can remember what it was anymore.

I always try to be upbeat in terms of my personal attitude, I don't see how you can root for guys while expecting them to fail.  I'm not trying to spread doom-and-gloom with this piece, I was just trying to help people digest and understand the objective projections.

My own gut?  I can't see a guy hitting that way for those three seasons, such a well-balanced hitting performance and so consistently excellent, and then just vanishing.  It doesn't make intuitive sense to me, certainly not at his age.  I mean, you look at what happened to Robbie Alomar in 2002, but that was different.  He was somewhat older, and he'd had a down half-season in 2000.  And even his collapse is considered unusual and historic.

Actually my instinct on Pronk is the same as my instinct on Marte.  When a guy is that good, three years running (four for Marte) at that age, there is no reasonable explanation except that it was real premium talent on display.  Talent can have an off-year or even two, but talent usually wins out in the long run.

by Jay on Mar 7, 2008 6:37 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
You could have just as easily been right about Peralta. The point was that these down seasons happen, for whatever reason. There will always be some guy one is worried about. I worry about Victor,  as he has shown in the past to go into unexplainable funks, and is 07 was so spectacular. I don't worry about Sizemore.

by oxforddave on Mar 7, 2008 7:04 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
That's exactly it, Jay.  And I don't think it has to be attributed entirely to gut. I think a guy can sometimes have a "down" 500 at-bats.

Placido Polanco in '06, Paul Konerko in '03, can I throw A-Rod in '04 in the group?, Chipper Jones '04.

Players with established superior skill sets (in their own regards) having unexpectedly weak seasons. A-Rod's year especially was still a wonderful all around season, but I just use it to showcase deviation in performance.  

by rick on Mar 7, 2008 9:32 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
Quickly, a rundown of BPro's 2007 and 2008 capsules on Travis:

2007

Per plate appearance, Hafner was the best hitter in the American League in 2006, with a broken right hand on September 1st possibly costing him an MVP award.  The Rangers had let Hafner stagnate in their system, but not even the Indians dreamed he'd be this good when they acquired him for what basically amounts to the immortal Einar Diaz.  Hafner's track record suggests he can continue at this level, but it's important to note that he's not a young budding superstar--he turns 30 in June and has those dreaded "old player skills."

PECOTA:  623 PA, 39 HR, 112 RBI, .296/.407/.588, .339 EQA, 64.1 VORP

COMPS:  Willie McCovey, David Ortiz, Boog Powell, Fred McGriff

2008

Concerned about Hafner's huge drop in production last year?  You should be.  Look at his age and look at those comps.  Kent Hrbek?  Washed up at 32.  Boog Powell?  Cooked by 31.  Travis Hafner has those dreaded old-player skills, and once they start going downhill, they tend to simply pick up speed.  The fact that the Indians owe him more than $57 million through 2012 could turn into a nightmare.

PECTOA:  636 PA, 28 HR, 97 RBI, .274/.383/.490, .305 EQA, 34.6 VORP

COMPS:  Boog Powell, Carlos Delgado, Fred McGriff, Kent Hrbek

I think it's also important to reiterate what was said in the previous thread.  BPro claims players with good plate discipline decline gracefully and hold on to other skills longer, yet seem to think Hafner is an exception to this rule (that or they don't think he has good plate discipline).

by nickjs21 on Mar 7, 2008 7:17 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
The idea is that a significant lack of athleticism can nullify the longevity that strong plate discipline otherwise might portend.  But calling Pronk and old-player-skills guy just seems like sloppy reporting, and Hrbek's career looks nothing like Hafner's, and Boog Powell was a career .266 hitter!

Again, this is my whole point ... the comps are weak on Hafner.

by Jay on Mar 7, 2008 7:40 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
And just to tie it back to the other thread, if his skill set/body type equals high odds of falling off at this age, every other contender has at least one slugger with similar profiles.  (That's what happens when you draw with such a broad brush.)

Remember, we were one game away from a whole offseason of stories about the Boston lineup relied too heavily on Ramirez and Ortiz, two amazing talents who must have somewhat similar risks.

by dgcambridge on Mar 7, 2008 9:25 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Whither the Old Young Pronk,
Let me add my two cents <tips hat to indiansfan>

Nothing about Hafner's career arc has been normal or comparable to anybody I can think of.  Essentially out of nowhere and then, within 2 years, the best hitter in the American League, and yeah I know about David Ortiz.  All of this at a relatively advanced age.  Like his rise, I don't expect his demise to be normal either.  Here's what I think: he'll either bounce back completely - and by that I mean a OPS of 1.00+ or continue to spiral down.  Nothing in between.

BTW, I gave you guys at least one comp - and he's an Indian to boot - Hal Trosky.  Meteroic rises followed by stunning crashes are not unprecedented, just rare.  Trosky was a star at age 23 and a has-been at 29.  

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 7, 2008 7:52 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk,
Trosky had delibiating migraines.  I'm serious.

And he was a hack.

Doh!  Just couldn't stop it.

by Jay on Mar 7, 2008 8:08 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk,
Wow ... I don't believe in fretting over typos ... but that is one hell of a swing-and-a-miss on "debilitating" there.  Delibiating?  What is that?

by Jay on Mar 7, 2008 8:09 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk,
You're right about the migraines - that's the standard Gordon Cobbledick sports writer story anyway.  

Migraines are tricky - there's a well know pattern to them - and they're actually a vascular disease treated with vaso-constrictors.  Anyway, the migraines that Trosky described were atypical.  But whatever, he said his head hurt and he couldn't play.  End of story.

Similarly I think what's wrong with Pronk is in his head.  His reflexes have not slowed and he hasn't lost strength - as far as I can tell.  I don't detect any change in his swing, other than it looks like he's lunging at the low and outside breaking stuff.  Nope, I think that the "Hafner Shift" has gotten into his head.  He'll either learn to ignore/deal with it or he won't.  

And kudos on your use of statistics to project Hafner's performance.  Using these stat ranges gives a much better indication of the speculative nature and variation of the projections.  

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 8, 2008 7:29 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk,
I forgot to mention that Trosky's migraines were treated with with some success by avoiding diary products and B12 injections.  Is it possible that  Roger Clemens's mother was directing Hal's therapy?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 8, 2008 8:36 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk,
Are those the "diary products" like on the right-hand side of this blog?  Some of those have given me headaches also.

by Nat on Mar 8, 2008 8:56 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
What he said.

If you want to take the "old player skills" into real life, consider what James was saying. If a player has to take a ton of walks just to get to a decent OBP, then any drop in bat speed or vision or other physical reflexes is going to be catastrophic. If a player is slow, he won't be able to rack up any infield hits.

So for opposing pitchers, there's no longer any fear of throwing strikes, because the guy can't hit them. Sure, he might get lucky every so often and hit one out of the park, but you can live with that. The low-average Scary Monster has become a really bad DH.

The question on Hafner's old player skills-related decline is really physical. Has he lost any bat speed? Can he pick up the baseball as well as he did? But even if those answers are correct, he has a long way to fall for him to be "washed up." He wasn't standing on the precipice; he was a mile from the cliff.  

by Ryan on Mar 8, 2008 10:24 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
"Has he lost any bat speed? Can he pick up the baseball as well as he did?"

This would argue for a gradual decline.  You lose bat speed at a gradual rate.  I'll give that "picking up the pitch" is a digital skill; either you do or you don't and great players rarely loose this skill.  But that's exactly what is so troubling about Pronks precipitous decline - it is as if he did he fall off a precipice.  He went from being one of the best, if not the best DH in all of baseball - right up to May of '07 - to the bottom half.  Almost over night.  Nope, I'm sorry, I just don't see this as a decrease in physical skill.  This is something catastophic, like a sever injury - only he's not injured.  

I think that the opposition has gotten into his head and he not been able - up to this point anyway - to shake it.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 8, 2008 10:34 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
But if it's mental, it's correctable. Really good players sometimes have bizarrely bad stretches in the middle of their careers. Pat Burrell 2003 hit .209/.309/.404 - at age 26. He's recovered.

If Hafner had only been in the league a year and then had this type of season, I be a lot more worried. But this is a guy who posted OPS+s of 162, 168, and 179. He has a track record, and it's a really good one. Again, if it isn't physical, I don't see making his 2007 season the start of a downward trend.

by Ryan on Mar 8, 2008 10:46 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
Re: correctible mental problems, see Sax, Steve and Knoblach, Chuck or Ankiel, Rich.  

Sometimes "correctible mental problems" never get corrected.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 9, 2008 8:59 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
Sure, but here you're showing catastrophe bias.  

It's not as if Hafner has to play the field.

I'll venture that all players--even the very best--will experience a mental funk at one point or another and overcome it.  

Pat Burrell is a great example. Also, see Woods, Tiger circa 2003-2004.

by jhon on Mar 9, 2008 4:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
This is a very good point, but I am not sure what you guys are so worried about.  Hafner ripped two doubles yesterday.  The only conclusion to be drawn from that, is that he is back to his old form.

by ClarkM on Mar 8, 2008 12:24 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
Talk about your SSS!
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 9, 2008 9:00 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
Is it fair to say that with CC's contract "resolved" (for the moment), Hafner's performance is the biggest organizational player question mark this season?  Not that I think the season will hinge on whether or not Pronk returns (I think Carmona's ability to repeat his performance would be far more important), but given the contractual commitment to Hafner - is he the biggest question for the Tribe?

by APV on Mar 8, 2008 10:50 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk, or maybe we shoul
Tales from my gutsack!!

I think Old Pronk will be back.  To get my Wedge on, Travis was "pressing" last year, trying to get back everything he felt he hadn't done in one ab/swing.

by rog on Mar 8, 2008 1:43 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk,
Jay, you earned a link from THT

by APV on Mar 8, 2008 3:54 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
APV,

Two things.  First, I think you're bang-on in regards to hard-hit balls.  Hafner simply did not hit the ball hard last year.  Is there an acceptable metric to illustrate that?  Second, what is THT?

Jay,

I like your optimism.  Outstanding work, too.

by tabler84 on Mar 10, 2008 10:24 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
THT is The Hardball Times.  The quality varies, but if you like reading about baseball the put out a lot of stuff and its all free.

As far as I know, the only publicly available metric for hard-hit balls is LD% based on ball-in-play data (which you can find through various sites such as FanGraphs.com).  The scoring of line drives is somewhat subjective, though, and not all line drives are created equal.  The Indians keep track of hard-hit balls as part of their internal stats department, even giving an award each year to the minor league player with the highest % of hard-hit balls (Goedert two years ago, maybe Jordan Brown last year...someone want to correct me on that).

by APV on Mar 10, 2008 10:32 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
it was brown.  jay already informed me that my dream of the award getting named "The Goedert" for him winning it 3-4 years in a row was already crushed last year.

by Brick. on Mar 10, 2008 11:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
Yeah, but Goedert did win the other two awards in 2007: on-base and walk percentage.  Maybe this year he can pull together all three.  The Goedert Hat trick.

by dgcambridge on Mar 10, 2008 3:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
i'm sure he's the organizations best hockey player too.  he's just that kind of guy.

by Brick. on Mar 10, 2008 4:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
Uhhh.

Weg

Larz

Canadian.

Get it?

by afh4 on Mar 10, 2008 6:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
unlike you, i try to look beyond stereotypes.  i think weglarz is one of those canadians that dreamed of glory on the NASCAR stage and never strapped on a pair of ice skates.  in fact, i think mr. hard hit balls never has either, but is still the best hockey player anyway.

by Brick. on Mar 11, 2008 1:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
It wasn't just line drives that fell, it was fly balls as well:

  1. 43.5% FB, 18.6% LD
  2. 36.5% FB, 20.2% LD
  3. 40.2% FB, 21.2% LD
  4. 34.7% FB, 17.5% LD (47.8% GB!)

Obviously you can't hit for much power if almost half of the balls put in play are on the ground.

by Ryan on Mar 10, 2008 10:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
I had forgotten (intentionally buried in my brain) Hafner's depressing GB numbers from last season.  I wonder if anyone's looked at dramatic year-year changes in GB%.  Hmm....

by APV on Mar 10, 2008 11:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
you're looking at this right now, aren't you.

by Brick. on Mar 10, 2008 11:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
sadly I'm grading right now...maybe later this week or weekend.  I've put it on my procrastination to-do list...

by APV on Mar 10, 2008 11:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the Old Young Pronk
I really want to quibble with this. Can he hit a baseball as hard as he has in the past? I think the data here would show that his home runs from last year were roughly the same distance and speed coming off the bat as the previous years' despite a .260 drop in OPS from that same time. His GB% rises close to 10 percentage points, and his HR/FB drops in half. His BABIP drops to its lowest in three seasons, and with him his BABIP has been been unusually high for a slow-of-foot player for three season in a row (2004-2006) likely indicative of some (if only small) control over the outcome of the batted ball during that span. My guess is the league smartened up and decided to give Hafner junk to hit, add in frustration and mental distress, and the man just started mis-hitting balls leading to more fly-outs and ground-outs. The power is there, the pitch recognition on the other hand might not be. (although spring is looking good so far...)

by hans on Mar 11, 2008 1:42 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the
It probably doesn't need to be said again but truly excellent. Great job, Jay.

by afh4 on Mar 10, 2008 6:28 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Whither the
The chances of returning to peak form post hand injury are not calculable. Haf may be better than ever this year or he may never be as good a hitter as he was before that injury.

by elsandito on Mar 13, 2008 9:06 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Whither the
Noted.  I will update the article to reflect the utter pointlessness of doing any projections on anything.  When I get around to it.

by Jay on Mar 13, 2008 9:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the
You're testy this morning...
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Mar 13, 2008 11:19 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the
Great post, man, that sort of comment always makes people less testy.  Way to defuse the ticking time-bomb over here.

by Jay on Mar 13, 2008 4:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the
Actually it's a typo - the doc ment to say "you've got some testes"
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 13, 2008 4:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the
SUCCESS!  I knew that would work.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Mar 13, 2008 4:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the
i probably would have typo'd my way into something awkward like "your testy this morning"

by Brick. on Mar 13, 2008 5:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the
Excellent. I can't wait for some fresh insight on this!

by Voltaire on Mar 13, 2008 3:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the
Haf may be better than ever this year or he may never be as good a hitter as he was before that injury.

That narrows things down.

I believe that Hafner is physically the same player he was in 2006. There's no evidence that the wrist injury had any lingering effects. Even in 2007 no one brought it up as an excuse.

by Ryan on Mar 13, 2008 5:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the
Actually I'm in agreement with our new-found friend here - sorta.  I think Hafner will be his '06 self or he'll fail miserably - nothing in between.  Does that nail it down a little better?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 13, 2008 5:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Whither the
Well, that is profoundly unlik