Game Thread: April 14, 2008 - 8th Inning
by Jay on Apr 14, 2008 10:09 PM EDT
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If we lose this game Roger your IP is going to get banned. Just FYI.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
Alright with all due respect, GTFO.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Its important the next few we get 1-2-3 so w dont have to see Ortiz/Manny again.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate Youk
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:11 PM EDT reply actions
oh fuck
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:11 PM EDT reply actions
It was going to before that even happened.
Tribe fan from far, far away
by LGT Patrick on Apr 14, 2008 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
i need the indians to score another run
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:12 PM EDT reply actions
Well... better now than against Papi or Ramirez last inning. But I don't like the idea of handing Borowski a one-run lead....
Its important the next few we get 1-2-3 so w dont have to see Ortiz/Manny again.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
what the fuck is your deal iron
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:14 PM EDT reply actions
iron says "cool it, bitch, I got this"
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
They weren't, last week.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Can we arrange a Pedroia-Youkilis cage fight? I mean, no matter the outcome the world is a better place afterwards, right?
No because it would be televised on ESPN.
Tribe fan from far, far away
by LGT Patrick on Apr 14, 2008 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Can we get any insurance in Progressive Field?
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:17 PM EDT reply actions
i missed it
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:17 PM EDT reply actions
You're lucky, it was a JoeBo lose-a-minute-off-your-life moment.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
huh?
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Just watchin' the Hasselhoff commercial on ESPN, with my cider.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Apr 14, 2008 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
and more cowbell
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I've got a fever, and the only cure is more cowbell.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Apr 14, 2008 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Did they just say an ERA of 81?
Break out the shovels, kids!
--
"I love baseball. You know it doesn't have to mean anything, it's just beautiful to watch." - Woody Allen
.1 IP
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Apr 14, 2008 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
shit, someone tell him.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
let's make it a HR
Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" but also a developing a Gutz mancrush. Free Marte, Free BenFran, Free Laffy - 'nuff said.
That first pitch was RIGHT DOWN BROADWAY, and he popped it up over the dugout. He's not right
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Brodzoski (The Close) warming.
I want my mommy.
--
"I love baseball. You know it doesn't have to mean anything, it's just beautiful to watch." - Woody Allen
GFP send that Lithuanian broad over to Voltaire's, stat.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
she hasn't spoken to me since i turned her down
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
hors d'ouvres.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
frank looks awful at anything off speed or breaking down in the zone
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:24 PM EDT reply actions
solid contact there
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:24 PM EDT reply actions
"Borowski can avoid Ortiz and Ramirez if he can go 1-2-3 in the ninth." -Hamilton
So in other words, we'll be seeing Papi and Manny ;)
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
by Chris Pokorny on Apr 14, 2008 10:25 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Hey, a DBN sighting!
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Cavs clinch, Indians about to take out Boston...have to fit in the Brownies somehow.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
by Chris Pokorny on Apr 14, 2008 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I have complete faith in Casey Blake, and he did not prove me wrong.
by Fiddlesticks on Apr 14, 2008 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
gutz hit it hard
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:25 PM EDT reply actions
fuck it i'm drinking the other 40
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:26 PM EDT reply actions
If he doesn't...
Tribe fan from far, far away
by LGT Patrick on Apr 14, 2008 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, it's a bet.
If not, he is made of wood.
And, therefore, a witch.
--
"I love baseball. You know it doesn't have to mean anything, it's just beautiful to watch." - Woody Allen
I'm sitting in a public study room in my University's library - when I read that I "BWAH!!!"'d so loud that the entire room turned and stared at me. Yes, that'd be about 30 pissed off people.
Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" but also a developing a Gutz mancrush. Free Marte, Free BenFran, Free Laffy - 'nuff said.
YEAH! LET"S KEEP PLAYING BLAKE BECAUSE HE"S NOT ACTUALLY A PIECE OF SHIT! YEAH!
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 10:27 PM EDT reply actions
Do you need to ask?
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Apr 14, 2008 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
This is not a dream.....
Tribe fan from far, far away
by LGT Patrick on Apr 14, 2008 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
wait, stella or stella artois? cuz stella is some shit egyptian beer that is worse than beer 30. or maybe it just tasted like that over there.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:29 PM EDT reply actions
FUCKING DAMNIT DELLUCCI WHY DONT YOU RUN OVER LIKE IT MATTERS AND THROW IT IN A FUCKING HURRY.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
What's that?
Tribe fan from far, far away
by LGT Patrick on Apr 14, 2008 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
stomp. p. masa.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:30 PM EDT reply actions
Seriously - why if FUCKING DD playing? I mean, seriously. WTF!
Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" but also a developing a Gutz mancrush. Free Marte, Free BenFran, Free Laffy - 'nuff said.
Baseball rules don't apply in the 9th.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean there isn't actually any doubt about what's going to happen, is there?
Let's not kid ourselves, or get our hopes up..
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
We need a non-scoring out here...
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:31 PM EDT reply actions
he was safe ...
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:32 PM EDT reply actions
Replay says out...
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
ANDY MARTE WOULD'VE TURNED A TRIPLE PLAY.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 10:32 PM EDT reply actions
BOROWSKI READS LGT
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:32 PM EDT reply actions
zzz
FUKKKKKKKKKKKFuCFukCUFJFUeduhfdijzj iq[w4tq8034]0gt9 qj3]4gj134gr14
jer
m rm
qeqg'mpmno
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
/melts down.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Westbrook's decision goes down the crapper...
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
Jo...BLOW
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:33 PM EDT reply actions
shit
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:33 PM EDT reply actions
The bottom rather?
Tribe fan from far, far away
by LGT Patrick on Apr 14, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Mooooooooovers
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Apr 14, 2008 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You're bitter so you cling to guns and religion...
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Ready for Papi's first bomb of the year?
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
FUCKING UZBEK! AISUHLIUAHWELIFHILEUHFLIUW
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 10:34 PM EDT reply actions
WEDGE BETTER
Tribe fan from far, far away
by LGT Patrick on Apr 14, 2008 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
No it's not
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Apr 14, 2008 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate you
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's see how Manny handles one of these smokers from Borowski...
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
More importantly, get ready for the pose
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Apr 14, 2008 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
oh jesus
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:35 PM EDT reply actions
So in Wedge's twisted world, Borowski is likely now off the hook. What in the flying fuck.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 10:35 PM EDT reply actions
we have seen the last of manny ramirez
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:35 PM EDT reply actions
I mean I'm not even upset because of how predictable that was.
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
err. joe borowski
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:36 PM EDT reply actions
FIRE BOROWSKI NOW
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:36 PM EDT reply actions
A pitching change!!!
--
"I love baseball. You know it doesn't have to mean anything, it's just beautiful to watch." - Woody Allen
Borowski is going to kill our whole team morale.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
He can't kill Marte's. His is already dead after yesterday.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Apr 14, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
blake, dellucci and borowski have all been just terrible this inning. maybe this will be enough to get wedge to dump them all
Who would you rather shoot in the back of the head right now, Wedge or Borowski?
Can we accept that Borowski is a great closer against awful teams only?
LeCavs.com!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
I'm convinced that Shap as GM and LGT as manager would win a World Series no problem. Fuck this.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 10:37 PM EDT reply actions
I think it's a real possibility.
The whole good-teammate thing is compromised when one guy squanders the efforts of 15 other guys too often.
And the whole slow-and-steady-not-impulsive-or-reactive thing doesn't apply when there's a very tangible loss of ability to perform. In other words, we don't just have a couple of bad results here, which could be considered a fluke, but the velocity thing, that makes it different.
I wouldn't be shocked to see a DFA tomorrow, but then I wouldn't be shocked to see nothing. I guess we might see a trip to the DL, they'll discover something to which to attribute the lost velocity, let him rest and excercise for a couple weeks, rehab for a few more weeks, see if he can't get his velocity back. Or possibly they'll just put him in long relief for a while.
I think the DL route is where they go. It gives them a chance to see if its something he can work through (the velocity that is). And not act like they are being reactionary. This isn't mental or anything like that (like Carmona's difficulty in the role) its simply loss in ability, which likely means he's done. Still a small sample size to go off of, but I don't know how he regains that lost velocity if there isn't a "real" injury here.
z
What happened? I went to switch to the STO feed from ESPN & couldn't find it & next thing I know, there's a douchebag standing on second.
Who said he'd hit John Adams in left? You called it!
FUCK YOU JoBo and fuck you Wedge for not walking the best hitter in the AL over the past 10 yrs.
Oh, yeah? FUCK YOU too Blake. You should be riding the pine if you're not bringing any glove.
Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" but also a developing a Gutz mancrush. Free Marte, Free BenFran, Free Laffy - 'nuff said.
cccc
What? Those fans had nothing to throw at him? Tomatoes? Eggs? Dog Crap? I thought this was Cleveland for crying out loud
-Erik
So have we ruined our chances of splitting the series with Byrd going tomorrow?
Tribe fan from far, far away
Yeah, I think everybody gets a pass for April.
LeCavs.com!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
Orel, shut the fuck up. This has nothing to do with the ALCS. We got outscored 30-5 the last three games, and Borowski didn't even appear until we were already down 10-2 in Game Six.
i seriously think joe bo might get the DFA tonight
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:39 PM EDT reply actions
I will not watch the Tribe again until Borowski is selling used cars somewhere.
Still an Ohio boy through and through!
by TribeLoverInNewYork on Apr 14, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
He should, but Indians don't wait until its too late before they fix the ship.
NBR (No Borowski Run): Refers to that run which puts the Indians up by 4 over an opponent, thereby drastically reducing the chances of Joe Borowski pitching in a game.
It would actually make this night tollerable
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 14, 2008 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at the bright side, if the FO is forced to see reality (i.e Borowski sucks) earlier in the season, we might save ourselves restless nights in August and September.
NBR (No Borowski Run): Refers to that run which puts the Indians up by 4 over an opponent, thereby drastically reducing the chances of Joe Borowski pitching in a game.
This has got to be a big slap in the face to the offense that actually showed up tonight.
Tribe fan from far, far away
Sizemore-Asdrubal-Hafner in the 9th.
Against Papelbon.
Somehow, you have to imagine that with Lugo-Crisp-Pedroia, the Red Sox would be looked at as the favorite to produce more when you factor in Borowski.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
So who is the new closer? The "obvious" Betancourt? I'd like to see Jensen, to keep the Raffy's in place.
LeCavs.com!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
Don't it matter? A monkey throwing feces would be a HUGE improvement.
NBR (No Borowski Run): Refers to that run which puts the Indians up by 4 over an opponent, thereby drastically reducing the chances of Joe Borowski pitching in a game.
Hard to get good wood on monkey feces.
by Fiddlesticks on Apr 14, 2008 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
What the fuck, seriously. Every night, something goes wrong. Either it's Byrd or Sabathia blowing up, the offense sucking, Borowski sucking, whatever. Some shit always goes wrong. You can't win games with little offense, a horrendous closer, poor defense, and Byrd/Sabathia sucking like they are.
A lot of pent-up LGT rage just came flowing out in the last 10 minutes. You want big picture? That's big picture.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 10:41 PM EDT reply actions
i feel bad for borowski, cause i know he's trying. but john mcdonald tries too..and that's just not enough.
-.748 WPA for Jobo... can't do much worse than that.
LeCavs.com!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
Tonight. From an 85% chance of winning to 10%.
LeCavs.com!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
I propose changing the name of Let's Go Tribe to Let's Fire Joe Borowski....
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:42 PM EDT reply actions
Would easily get more publicity than Larry Hughes' version.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
by Chris Pokorny on Apr 14, 2008 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Just stick it out there and try to find a hole
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, Wickman was a contact closer
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Could he possibly get trotted out there tomorrow? You know, he's got that great quality of being able to forget the night before. Grittiness. Veteraness. I'm terrified. I don't trust wedge.
¡Free Chan Perry!
by TheVanillaGorilla on Apr 14, 2008 10:44 PM EDT reply actions
found how my best case byrd scenario is still a worst case scenario. that almost makes sense but i think you understand.
¡Free Chan Perry!
by TheVanillaGorilla on Apr 14, 2008 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
good cut
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:44 PM EDT reply actions
For all the talk about team morale with this club, Wedge does a pretty good job of depressing the fuck out of everybody.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 10:45 PM EDT reply actions
Not a strike
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:45 PM EDT reply actions
zz
inside
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:45 PM EDT reply actions
fuck
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:46 PM EDT reply actions
The sad thing is, with first and second, nobody out, Wedge would probably sac Pronk.
LeCavs.com!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
It's not that bad...
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
If Borowski gets a 40 season trial, kiss this season goodbye. Frankly, if we have a FO that dumb, we deserve to be cellar dwellers.
NBR (No Borowski Run): Refers to that run which puts the Indians up by 4 over an opponent, thereby drastically reducing the chances of Joe Borowski pitching in a game.
My night was already ruined by my stupid philosophy paper, but at least I was keeping it together because the Indians were winning. And now, I mean, damn. Goddammit.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 14, 2008 10:46 PM EDT reply actions
i dont understand how the fo can seem so smart everywhere else and then employ wickman or borowski 5 years running
kill me now
As General Manager of this team, I demand to know when I'm getting a start.
For comparison's sake:
http://www.fangraphs.com/wins.aspx?date=2006-06-30&team=Reds&dh=0&season=2006
Worse single swing negative WPA possible, courtsey Robert WIckman.
LeCavs.com!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
I think they announce injury soon and some DL time for Borowski. He's clearly down a more than a few MPH per pitch.
fuck me
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:48 PM EDT reply actions
???
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Back-to-Back-to-Back homers?
Winning Formula: Long fly ball... Deep ______ Field... Awaaaayyyy back! Gone!
by Justin Higgins on Apr 14, 2008 10:48 PM EDT reply actions
What is the point of having a pitcher who would get shelled in college baseball in the major leagues?
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 14, 2008 10:49 PM EDT reply actions
And 3!
I think we need another (Ir)Rational Tantrum thread.
--
"I love baseball. You know it doesn't have to mean anything, it's just beautiful to watch." - Woody Allen
FUCK that ball was JACKED
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:49 PM EDT reply actions
I don't think we've ever been this collectively pissed before. Can anyone confirm this?
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 10:50 PM EDT reply actions
Our fucking mood is negative.
Tribe fan from far, far away
by LGT Patrick on Apr 14, 2008 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
On the scale of 1-10.
Tribe fan from far, far away
by LGT Patrick on Apr 14, 2008 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm feeling about 8.5, I think.
--
"I love baseball. You know it doesn't have to mean anything, it's just beautiful to watch." - Woody Allen
I will be tomorrow if JoBo is gone.
Tribe fan from far, far away
by LGT Patrick on Apr 14, 2008 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't think i have been
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
It's one thing to expect it rationally.
It's another thing to see it happen so shockingly.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
The ball he threw to Ramirez was 80 mph, just above the belt, and right_down_the_middle_of_the_plate.
How do you miss THAT badly to Manny?
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I felt hot all over.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I could probably have hit that over the wall.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2008 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
LGT Auditions: Who here can throw faster than 80 mph?
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
I think I've topped 70...but then again I relied more on finesse.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
by Chris Pokorny on Apr 14, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I bet I can keep it away from the *middleofthefuuckingplate*
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
z
I AM SO EFFING ANGRY RIGHT NOW I CANT FIND THE CAPS LOCK KEY
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
Could we lead a boycott of the team to force them to DFA Borowski?
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 14, 2008 10:51 PM EDT reply actions
I call for the death penalty for blown saves.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 14, 2008 10:51 PM EDT reply actions
my heart skipped a beat, I got really happy
by Tribe_Hippie on Apr 14, 2008 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate this goddamned shit
5-8? That a joke? We got fucking Fausto Carmona. We have Grady Sizemore. We've played the goddamned A's, and the White Sox, and they're both supposed to suck. F this shit. I put off doing a paper until tomorrow to watch this. I skipped Monday Night Raw for this. I'm mad as hell.
Same here man, same here.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 14, 2008 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
z
I'm going away for a while and won't come back until someone's DFA'd, preferably Michaels or JoeBo, or I can say something nice. I may be gone for a while.
Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" but also a developing a Gutz mancrush. Free Marte, Free BenFran, Free Laffy - 'nuff said.
CLE: Traded P Joe Borowski, LF Jason Michaels & LF David Dellucci to PIT for LF Jason Bay
LeCavs!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
How long before the FO sees the obvious? 4 games under .500? 8 games under .500?
NBR (No Borowski Run): Refers to that run which puts the Indians up by 4 over an opponent, thereby drastically reducing the chances of Joe Borowski pitching in a game.
CLE: Fired manager Eric Wedge, out of a cannon, into the sun
LeCavs!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
Don't blame him. Blame our cajone-less GM.
NBR (No Borowski Run): Refers to that run which puts the Indians up by 4 over an opponent, thereby drastically reducing the chances of Joe Borowski pitching in a game.
not wrong. but myabe not the time.
¡Free Chan Perry!
by TheVanillaGorilla on Apr 14, 2008 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
F that.
Like Borowski's decline is a reason to call Shapiro an idiot?
Where is the closer we passed on? What are we supposed to do at this price level? You build your bullpen through trial and error. There's not another apparent solution.
There is not a single pitcher in the bullpen (and 2 in buffalo) that I wouldnt feel more comfortable closing than JoeBo.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Fausto 2006 would have gotten over it eventually, but they wanted to put him back in the rotation anyway.
Eventually, maybe.
But if we're so concerned about giving away games it doesn't make much sense to go to youth who might get it "eventually" does it? Or youth who might not be able to do it at all?
Moving Raffy R isn't an option for me. He's far more useful in his swing role.
I think you're missing a very important fact:
Joe Borowski can no longer retire MajorLleague Batters.
I'm with you. Andrew, Volt ... you guys are nuts. Keeping Iron Fist in a certain role is not as important as, you know, winning ballgames.
But if we put a lesser player in more important situations more frequently, I think it will add up to more losses.
nah man...the set up only makes sense if the pitchers you use in winable games (i.e. games we lead in) are all very good pitchers. You have to have a good closer
nah man Jobo threw a few MPH faster than. He was bad, but not as bad as his ERA last year (remember the games he pitched when not closing blew it up) He was probably our fourth best reliever last year, but still above avg (compared to league relievers) and now he's not.
I can buy 4th best, but not "above league average."
Again, i don't mind him closing low-leverage situations. But these high ones - it's inexcusable.
No man he's clearly lost MPH on his pitches, He should not be in "winnable" games. Put someone else in there. Technically I'd agree with keeping Raffy B and P in the set up role, and moving Masa or Jenson in the the 9th, but I don't see them doing it, so the alternative is Raffy B to the closer role (or potentially Masa,,which would be interesting to see). But Borowski is much much worse this year, and does not need to be in winnable games
He doesn't need to be on the team, that's what. But if that's not going to happen, he needs to be our mop-up guy. If THAT'S not going to happen, he needs to only close low-leverage stuff. If THAT'S not going to happen, he needs to be eaten by Hannibal Hamlin.
Again, making too much out of velocity. His location is plain terrible too, and his pitches didnt have much movement on them last year.
He has a tendency to hang sliders leave changeups high in the zone.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
No I don't think its too much...but I think your right as well, location is all over the place. But location can be fixed. I don't think velocity is going to improve.
Location, Velocity, Movement. Need to have 2.
Say his location improves. His movement/velocity isnt going to.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, I'm not necessarily saying that you HAVE to move Bentancourt. I mean, if Joe Bo can do this "Closer" job it an ERA around 40.00, I mean, couldn't Jensen? Couldn't JD Martin, Couldn't Slocum?
No, I do think the role can rattle certain players. You're more likely to see Masa or Julio inserted than a first- or second-year player, that's partly why they signed those guys.
There's no doubt that a move needs to be made now, probably Borowski to the DL.
But, before tonight, I dunno. It's easy to look at tv radar guns and act like we know what's up but I trust the FO and all to know when to call the body dead. He looked like this at times last year and worked through it. Obviously, that's not happening, so we need plan B.
I guess I'm defending bring Borowski in tonight, which feels weird, but frankly I'm not sure what else they should've done. It's April 14.
The point is that you can replace a lesser bullpen guy (say, Jen Lew for Elarton/Mastny) and move the deplaced pitcher into JoeBo's spot, and no longer have to play a guy who is total shit.
And btw, fuck the radar guns: any speed in the location of the balls he threw manny and youkkilis are going to get ripped.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
This is revisionist. Borowski did what was asked of him. He didn't blow the playoffs either, no matter what Orel says.
Um what? Did what was asked of him? Sucked? Well, yes, I still maintain he should be our closer half of the time - in the low-leverage situations. But we kept using him in these high-leverage ones, and he usually blows them! That's not revisionist.
He closed a lot of games. Saves aren't like wins; they're still a stupid stat but they aren't one that indicates someone else actually got the job done (i.e. the offense).
Saves mean he did exactly what was asked of him-not give up the lead and get three outs.
It means something because Wedge or the FO or whoever has identified it as a role we're going to fill with a single player. So, we have to have one apparently and Borowski did an alright job at it last year, freeing up our best relievers to do the actual hard work.
On the bright side, I have won a longstanding argument with my husband. He had fallen for the Saves = good pitcher dealio.
Your husband is an idiot, and you should divorce him immediately. You deserve a real man. His name is ANDY FUCKING MARTE.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
hahahah
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
My god. I should post a transcript of his "That really high ERA is from non-close situations!" speeches.
Three types of non-save situations -- tie games, four-run leads, and blowouts. The blowouts, I'll give him that.
As for the other two, blowing those games is not excusable. Here's the logical breakdown:
Julie: Geez, he gives up a ton of runs and is not a very good closer.
Mary: Yes, but on the plus side, most of the time he blows a game, it's a tie game or a four-run lead!
Julie: Why is that a plus?
Mary: Because it means he's doing his job as the closer!
Julie: His job as the closer is to blow tie games and four-run leads?
Mary: No, of course not! Those games aren't his job, that's why he's allowed to blow them!
Julie: But ... if they're putting him in those games, don't they want him to win those games?
Mary: Sure, but it's not really his job.
Julie: It's not his job to pitch well so they don't lose the game?
Mary: That's right! Only if it's a save situation!
Julie: So what if it's a four-run game, and then he gives up two runs. It's not his job to not give up another two runs!
Mary: Exactly! Now you're getting it!
Just in case it isn't clear, your husband in this script is named "Mary." See, this is just crazy talk. The job of the closer is to kick ass whenever you stick him in any game. To help you win, to keep you from losing. And if Mary can't see that, then he's just nuts.
That's not at all the argument I'm making.
Borowski isn't a good pitcher. He's a guy who did an ok job at a defined role. That's useful for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that we can't afford to replace that role and we don't have an obvious internal candidate.
Look, I'm trying to see it from the FO perspective going into 2007 and again into 2008. They didn't want Betancourt in that role, probably in an attempt to increase his impact. The FO agreed with this so much they went out and signed two guys to close even after Betancourt's 2005 and 2006.
Is he now? Well, it seems pretty obvious.
I don't get the "can't afford to replace that role" argument. Jobo last year was good enough not justify use in winnable games, but this year he clearly is one of the worse relievers in the league right now... he should never be inserted into another game where we are winning. If that means moving guys around and ruinging the reliever ace thing we had going on, so be it. reliever ace only works when your closer isn't one of the worst pitchers in the league. We need our best relievers pitching in the winnable games and our worst one pitching in the mop up duty games.
I'm not advocating more Borowski. I'm just trying to explain why it's bullshit for everyone to scream bloody murder over Borowski being used tonight.
i agree with andrew1 on this
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
AGREED. Like when the fuck are we going to draw the line here? When his arm falls off? When he falls below 70mph? This has been a steady decline and they've been afraid to make a move. What makes us think tonight will somehow change things?
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
It seems silly to get mad about future events.
And, well, yeah, a lot of people seem to be acting like it's indefensible he was in there-crazy, faustossinking for two.
See, the thing is, we were mad before the game, knowing if it were a save situation, this could very likely happen. See the comments when he was brought in. This is nothing new.
Yeah, because I'm a big fan of Borowski as a closer. Like I cheer when he comes in.
Look, unless you wanted him replaced last year in the playoffs I don't know what justification there is for replacing him much earlier than this game. His line between sucking and saving is very fine and if we can get him on the right side of it, like last year, he's valuable.
We can't, so he's probably done.
If they said that Mastny was going to close in the playoffs before they started last year, I would have been fine with that.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 15, 2008 7:41 AM EDT up reply actions
He won’t be used tomorrow (well, now it’s today). Byrd is on the mound against Wakefield, and the Red Sox will beat Byrd like a rented mule and the Tribe will flail at knuckleballs. It won’t be close enough for the Indians to need a closer.
I hope I’m wrong. But I’ve been a Cleveland fan long enough to see a death spiral when I see one starting.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Apr 15, 2008 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
But this shows up all the time here. Andrew just used it a few comments up, saying JB did what he was asked to do.
by dgcambridge on Apr 14, 2008 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry. I should have been clearer. I agree with you completely, i just don't see a lot of people heeding your entirely rational advice at the current moment.
¡Free Chan Perry!
by TheVanillaGorilla on Apr 14, 2008 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough. Good talk.
¡Free Chan Perry!
by TheVanillaGorilla on Apr 14, 2008 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
FUCKING INDIANS. FUCKING TAXES. FUCKING VAN HALEN BREAKING UP.
by fleerdon on Apr 14, 2008 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm mad, but.. yeah. Have some perspective.
For one, I expected this as completely & totally as you can expect something.
For another, it's still early. I guarantee you there were stretches last year where we went 5-8. Yeah, it's shitty & it'd be nice to be 13-0 and in the lead of the division, but you know what? We still haven't played 10% of our games yet. Shit happens.
My only axe to grind with this game is that Borowski sucks. Westbrook actually looked pretty awesome, as did Betancourt. Hafner hit a couple of balls that would be out in June, and Sizemore hit at least one that would've been close.
149 to go. Plenty of time for another 90 wins. Let's Go Tribe!
Later!
LeCavs!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
I think what's called for is John Adams to come down and hit people in the head in the dugout.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 14, 2008 10:55 PM EDT reply actions
I'm now rooting for Borowski to blow every save opportunity he gets. His leash can't be THAT long. Is Shapiro willing throw away a season because of Borowski?
NBR (No Borowski Run): Refers to that run which puts the Indians up by 4 over an opponent, thereby drastically reducing the chances of Joe Borowski pitching in a game.
I'm so pissed that I'm taking out my frustration by eating all my Easter candy. This 12 oz bag of M&M's is toast.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
I blame this whole loss on Monty Python. Fucking witch made of wood.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I blame Roger Dorn. You dont fuck with a superstition.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
F-ing monkeys learn faster than clowns running this team.
NBR (No Borowski Run): Refers to that run which puts the Indians up by 4 over an opponent, thereby drastically reducing the chances of Joe Borowski pitching in a game.
I will personally volunteer to eat Brodzoski (The Close).
by Hannibal Hamlin on Apr 14, 2008 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
The second after we squandered that bases loaded 1 out inning, I knew it was going to go down like this. I knew the lead would stay within range of JoBo blowing this game. I didn't want to come in here and post negativism.
This would have easily happened yesterday if we didn't tack on those extra runs at the end of the game.
LOVE IT
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2008 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
"That's the kind of game that makes you want to go home and beat your wife and kids,"
Charles Barkley
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 14, 2008 11:03 PM EDT reply actions
Baseball tonight says the Red Sox "steal one" from JoeBlow. I wouldn't let him guard my pog collection.
¡Free Chan Perry!
by TheVanillaGorilla on Apr 14, 2008 11:04 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That is good.
Tribe fan from far, far away
by LGT Patrick on Apr 14, 2008 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
This thread might finish 2nd only to "game 7" for f-bombs dropped.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:04 PM EDT reply actions
Unfortunately, a whole heck of a lot of people saw it at home I'm sure though.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
by Chris Pokorny on Apr 14, 2008 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
"You know, recently I've been thinking, we never gave 'Rebuild & Contend' a fair shake."
by fleerdon on Apr 14, 2008 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Is there one?
Tribe fan from far, far away
by LGT Patrick on Apr 14, 2008 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
We don't have money to sign C.C, but we have the money to pay Borowski $4M a year. We don't have the money to sign C.C, but we have the money to pay Byrd $8M after he was caught using HGH.
What. A. Joke.
MAYBE IF WE STOPPED WASTING MONEY ON GRIT, WE COULD SPEND IT ON, YOU KNOW, TALENT OR ABILITY.
NBR (No Borowski Run): Refers to that run which puts the Indians up by 4 over an opponent, thereby drastically reducing the chances of Joe Borowski pitching in a game.
Don't forget the money to pay casey blake.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 14, 2008 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
"Very Exciting News About a Member of the Pitching Staff (NOT CC Sabathia)"
by Fiddlesticks on Apr 14, 2008 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
WEDGE: "And I do trust our closer, people. But interestingly -- and totally unbeknownst to me -- our closer is actually Jorge Julio."
by fleerdon on Apr 14, 2008 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Is the press conference available online?
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 14, 2008 11:08 PM EDT reply actions
To be fair, he wasn't on base very long.
by Fiddlesticks on Apr 14, 2008 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
welp, i went across the street and bought another 40
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 11:09 PM EDT reply actions
And Borowski will probably take the "responsibility" again for the loss. And you know what? THAT MEANS NOTHING! You guys remember that ridiculous diary rant I had last year about JoeBo during the playoffs? Shit hasn't changed a bit.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:10 PM EDT reply actions
if joe borowski is a real closer and a real cleveland indian he will retire tonight and give the tribe back the remainder of his salary
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 11:11 PM EDT reply actions
"I've got to talk to him." -Eric Wedge
"I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse." -Vito Corleone
Of course, Wedge wasn't as badass in his demeanor.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
I'm not MAD at Joe Borowski tonight, and I'm not MAD at Eric Wedge for pitching Joe, and I'm not MAD at the FO for picking up Joe's option. All of these are defensible moves, GOING INTO TONIGHT.
Now if we have a 3 run or less lead tomorrow, and you bring in Joe Bo... well I don't think I can get behind that, after tonight.
You guys do know that this happened 2 nights ago, right?
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
As true today as it was on October 9th.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:14 PM EDT reply actions
Except the Raffy B part of course. I realized 2.2IP would've been a little nmuch.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I just hate him so much. And I hate that we put him in in the 9th when we could have put in Perez earlier and Betancourt later. I hate that what is supposed to be a lockdown move for managers becomes a nail biter for us. I hate that I still like this team because this is unacceptable. I hate that we can't find a closer who can throw over 85 fucking mph. I hate that we have guys in Des Moines who can throw 10 mph more than this assclown because Des Moines has no baseball talent. I hate that this guy is a millionaire when he deserves so little of it. I hate that I hear that he had so many saves last year especially since he played his way into saves. I hate that I can't blame this on good hitting because that pitch should have been hammered. I mean COME ON! I hate that I wasted an evening. And most of all, I hate that this fucking shit keeps happening to every fucking team I like. GODDAM IT!
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 14, 2008 11:20 PM EDT reply actions
what? that wasn't me
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but you're from Iowa. Therefore you have more talent than JoeBo.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
ohhh true
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
and i'm 5'5" mario, i can't even throw 70 i don't think
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 14, 2008 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
You could have walked Manny.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 14, 2008 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
we might be the two shortest guys on LGT. 5'6" over here.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Friendly Reminder
Go ahead and do your venting (within reason) here, but the Ground Rules apply everywhere else on this site.
I'm cool, Ryan -- back into "parts of speech" anger levels.
by fleerdon on Apr 14, 2008 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Hell, I won't need to post a picture of Hines Ward grinning on DBN to get pissed off before Steelers games anymore. A snapshot of good old JoBo will do the trick...
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
I hated Joebo more than Hines Ward before this season even started.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 14, 2008 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I just want to keep swearing to be honest with you.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:24 PM EDT reply actions
that that that that don't kill me / can only make me stronger
by fleerdon on Apr 14, 2008 11:25 PM EDT reply actions
oh my. we're losing this one. somebody call for help.
¡Free Chan Perry!
by TheVanillaGorilla on Apr 14, 2008 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
1. As in one more Kanye reference to get me to give up and go to bed.
¡Free Chan Perry!
by TheVanillaGorilla on Apr 14, 2008 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
omg...Browns schedule to be announced tomorrow. Let's hope for those prime timers!
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
Honestly take your big picture and shove it.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you can go two ways:
1. Bring up Elarton to be an actual "long man." Move Julio or Masa into closers role.
2. Bring up JD Martin, Slocum or Elarton to close. Seems unlikely.
Wha? Let's keep some semblance of sanity here.
Betancourt closes. Lewis and Perez are the setup guys.
Much rather see Lewis closing, Raffies setting up. But anything that has Joe B. not closing (AND NOT PITCHING IN THE RELIEF ACE INNINGS) is fine by me, I'll deal with any configuration.
Why is JoeBo ahead of anyone on the totem pole right now?
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm as pro-Stomp as anybody, but you'd have to show me Betancourt failing as the closer before I'd put Jensen back there. Isn't Stomp our relief ace right now?
by fleerdon on Apr 14, 2008 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know that I'd call it "FAILING," but Bentacourt's previous go round as closer was NOT productive.
I don't know what you're even referring to.
I count just 12 times Betancourt has ever entered a save situation in the 9th or later, and he succeeded 9 times. That's not great, but it's also not many trials.
Betacourt's career 9th inning line: .219 .246 .343
Career line in extra innings: .134 .205 .194
Those are better than his 7th/8th inning numbers.
Hello gte619n,
Jay mentions Betancourt’s career save statistics below, and those certainly aren’t bad (SSS understood,) and arguably better than what Borowski has given to us so far this season (SSS again understood.)
Also keep in mind that most of those save opportunities (I believe) came in 2004 when Betancourt actually did a solid job as the closer up until he had to come in virtually every game because no one else in the 2004 bullpen could get any outs. Eventually, Betancourt started to falter with a few blown saves and went on the DL with some type of arm problem (bicep or tricep tendinitis if I remember correctly.)
Therefore, some of Betancourt’s statistics are a bit skewed due to his being overworked and his arm problem.
Even with his less-than-stellar career save statistics, I’d still give him the first crack of being the new long-term closer. After him, it would be a toss-up between Perez and Lewis – I could go with either of them, as I think both have the stuff to dominate, and just have to learn how to close effectively at the ML level (I think both had some limited experience closing in the Minors.)
After that, it would be a tossup between Julio and Kobayashi, though I’d probably lean toward Julio, only because he has done it before here in the States, and arguably, has the better stuff. I also wouldn’t want to put Kobayashi in that situation so soon in his debut season; later on this season, if the need would arise and Kobayashi has pitched well up to that point, I wouldn’t hesitate considering him as a closer option either.
That would only leave Breslow, and while I’m not sure he’s closer material, I feel more comfortable with him than I do Borowski right now. Case in point, I’m more comfortable with the other 6 relievers in our bullpen than I am with JoeBo, and while I haven’t seen Mastny pitch at the ML level this season, if he pitches close to what he did in the postseason last year, he’d probably be added to the list too.
Just my 2 cents – no offense. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I think the reason the FO picked up JoeBo's option this offseason is that they really believe in the "super reliever" role. That the closer is not necessarily pitching in the highest leverage situation. You use your "BEST" reliever when the LI is the highest... like bringing in Raffy B tonight.
Ergo, leave Raffy B in his current role. Bring in Some Warm Body Throwing 90+ to "close"
Here's how I see that: Jesus Jones and Bro Breslow are locked into your 6 and 7 spots -- and they're doing lovely work there -- and the Circle of Trust shifts back into the 8th and 9th. That leaves two slots, and Death Ball's sitting in one of them. So you're looking at a 7th Inning / matchup guy. I'd guess Elarton first, since we've got the least to lose there. After that, I'd guess Mujica.
by fleerdon on Apr 14, 2008 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair guess; he's the closest thing to a capital-C closer we've got, and they do seem to have an affinity for that role. I don't think that affects the call-up, though -- Elarton or Mujica, who had a nice outing recently.
by fleerdon on Apr 14, 2008 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha! I have him already!
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2008 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
He’s available in any league that doesnt have holds as a statistic.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 15, 2008 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
How will you all remember tonight? Here's what i am going to do:
1) Joe Borowski dartboard
2) Joe Borowski urinal cakes
3) Joe Borowski toilet paper
4) Hilarious new sayings like, "I haven't seen anything this bad since that time when Borowski blew it against the Red Sox in April"
5) Commissioning a statue of Joe Borowski just to destroy it.
6) Referring to tonight, in the tradition of Cleveland meltdowns like "The Drive" and "The Fumble", as "The Blow"
7) Inserting a few insulting references to Joe Borowski in my next few papers for class.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 14, 2008 11:36 PM EDT reply actions
I don't think this is even top 5 for dramatic JoeBlow blown saves. That's the most ridiculous part.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Looks like Jay and others have covered this well, but I came to the PC to post my thoughts so damnit, here it goes.
As others have stated, I wasn't the least bit surprised. In fact, I didn't even watch it live. I figured a tie was the best-case scnenario. I watched some stuff on my DVR and just flipped back every so often.
JoBo just cannot compete with the stuff he's throwing up there. It's not fair to his team, and it's not fair to him. They're embarrassing him by throwing him out there. Someone posted that he is hanging his changeups...one problem...he doesn't throw a changeup. That's the issue.
I posted after the Hunter grand slam that I thought this would be the first of six or seven games he blew before getting replaced. The silver lining is that if he was going to blow them, it's best he does it spectacularly. In that way, maybe they don't wait for 6-7 blown saves to pull him. This loss may be the best thing for this team in the long run.
And for those of you suggesting guys like Slocum or Miller for closer...you are clearly insane. You're going to tell the other 24 guys in the locker room who are focused on getting back to the playoffs that some kid is going to come up and close for them. Again, that might work well in Strat-O-Matic ball, but this is the real world. I'm not saying that at some point Miller couldn't be the closer, but he hasn't even appeared in a minor-league game this year. Come on!
I completely agree that this is the best thing for the team in the long run. It wouldn't have been surprising for JoeBo to BABIP his way through the season, lucking out at every turn, and crapping the bed in the playoffs. This will hopefully be nearing the end.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
My mom just walked into my room. She heard me swear an hour ago. First thing out of her mouth..."Borowski?"
Enough said. Hell she doesn't even know Vic or Pronk or Grady, but she knows who's been pissing me off weekly for the last year. Goddamnit to hell.
by supermarioelia on Apr 14, 2008 11:49 PM EDT reply actions
Well, I think we've cleared up our next roster move: Trade Casey Blake. Obviously.
by fleerdon on Apr 14, 2008 11:54 PM EDT reply actions
So nobody's gonna point a finger at the offense here? Nobody thinks we shouldn't have blown this into Jorge Julio territory against Tavarez? Yeah, like, Borowski ate one and everything, but golly gee willikers did we leave a flock on the pond in the middle innings.
by fleerdon on Apr 14, 2008 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, okay, you guys do what you want. I'm gonna blame Casey Blake.
by fleerdon on Apr 15, 2008 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
No offense, fleerdon, but again, JoeBo didn’t do his job – that is the main culprit. We can’t keep losing games because we didn’t extend the lead.
Yes, the offense needs to do better, but must we score at every opportunity we get (and 2+ runs each time) in order to ensure that JoeBo can finish it off? Sometimes, the pitching has to pick up the hitting – we scored 4 runs, which was our magic charm last year. While it would have been nice to score more, we had one more than Boston, but JoeBo didn’t finish it, giving up hits to the 0 for his last 16 Lugo, and the less than .100 Big Papi, so the lack of offense doesn’t excuse Borowski for a poor job or Wedge for not taking him out of there when he probably should have known something was up with Borowski (who isn’t that great of a pitcher when he’s at “full” strength, let alone only throwing 83 MPH on his fastball – heck, Charles Nagy after his elbow injury threw harder than that. So does Byrd.)
If you wish to blame Casey Blake, that’s your choice, but in my mind, the main culprit was Borowski, without question. He does his job, we win, even with Blake faltering with RISP. That’s why Borowski is the “numero uno” culprit for our loss in my opinion.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
They're not going to DFA Borowski after 2 bad appearances. They'll give him a little bit more rope, but I don't see him as the closer July 1.
I don't fault Wedge for bringing him in. He's the closer, you're up by 1 at home in the 9th inning. That's what closers are supposed to be used for. You could make the argument, ala Bill James, that the closer role as presently understood is a mistake, and that there shouldn't be a designated relief pitcher reserved for the 9th inning in such circumstances, but that doesn't have anything to do with Wedge's decision to bring him in tonight. He's just working with what he's been given.
yeah, listen i rag on wedge a lot, but i'm not faulting him for borowski tonight.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 15, 2008 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I am - didn't last year teach him anything? Sure it's normal, but, to use a cliche, you don't jump off a cliff just cause every other manager in the bigs is doing it.
Wedge didn't pick up the option, the FO did. What's he supposed to do, just refuse to play him? Borowski was acquired to close, and that's what Wedge is using him for, until he proves to everyone that he can't. I'd say we're getting close, but not everything can be blamed on Wedge.
Wedge can refuse to play him when it will cost us the game. (Very) roughly half of Brodzoski (The Close)'s appearances are meaningless save situations. Let him pitch those - fine. He's "closing" for us. But when it's a close game - when it really matters, like tonight - you cannot, cannot, cannot just trot him out there and let him blow the game, then shrug your shoulders and say "I had no other choice." Of course Wedge had another choice. The Close should be working half-saves, half-mopup, if he's going to be on the team at all.
The issue isn't whether or not it was the right decision in retrospect, since managers get burned by their relievers all the time, the issue is whether it was unreasonable for Wedge to make the decision he did. It wasn't. Borowski was signed as a closer. He closed for us all of last season. Based on that performance, the FO made the decision to pick up his option for this year with the implicit assumption that he would close for us again. There was no clause in the contract that said he would not be relied upon in tight situations.
I don't understand the need to blame everything on Wedge. Borowski sucks, but the solution is to get rid of him, not relegate him to a Closer-In-Name-Only role. A closer who can't be relied on in close situations isn't a closer at all, he's Terry Mulholland. He has no utility to the team. I don't see how we can blame Wedge for NOT taking his $4 million closer and banishing him to bullpen Siberia after one blown save. It would be a half-measure that's really no measure at all. Either he's gonna work out in the role he had last year, or we can't trust him, and he needs to be gone. Tonight should help both Wedge and the FO decide between the two.
There was no clause in the contract that said he would not be relied upon in tight situations.
Well that's kinda silly.
Borowski was signed as a closer. He closed for us all of last season. Based on that performance, the FO made the decision to pick up his option for this year with the implicit assumption that he would close for us again
And did a mediocre job of it - if you feel like being really generous.
I'm not blaming all of this on Wedge. Borowski last season was our 4th best reliever (behind Raffys and Lewis). He was better than Mastny and Fultz; I was fine with him being on the club last year. But the way in which he was being used was rather silly.
Maybe I'm asking for too much here - to want Wedge to cast aside the idiotic closer's role that has been ingrained into the very fibers of the game. But if any organization is, ahem, progressive enough to do so (and see the increase in bullpen effectiveness that would result), I would hope it would be the Indians.
Of course it's silly - a closer is a closer. If he can't be used in close games, may as well not even have him on the team. Which is where I think we're all leaning (to put it diplomatically) at this point. And although we don't know, it may well be that Wedge is forcing the issue here: Either he's going to perform in the closer role for us, or he's gonna be gone.
I agree that the closer role itself is kinda silly, but I don't exactly think Eric Wedge has Bill James on his nightstand. He ain't the guy to make that change. The best avenue now is to jettison Borowski, and go to Betancourt as the closer.
I agree with everything you've said, up until the very last part of your last sentence. I feel like that'd be wasting (albeit in a small way) many of Raffy B's innings. Count me a member of the (as I've said several times in this thread) Lewis for closer bandwagon.
Yeah, I could go with that. But I imagine that Closer Betancourt would be throwing more innings than Borowski - brought in to face righties in the 8th, or something like that. I don't know; the major issue is Borowski right now. Fight Joe First.
“If he can’t be used in close games, may as well not have him on the team”
This is pure lunacy. Just because you don’t trust a guy in one-run games doesn’t mean he can’t serve some useful purpose. You’re sayin Mastny might as well not be on the team now since we obviously don’t trust him in close games? Or Julio?
by supermarioelia on Apr 15, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The only place I see Borowski is in the front-end of the bullpen, like say the 6th inning or 7th inning at the latest, and perhaps only for mop-up duty. Other than that, I’d rather he’d not be on the team – he’s really not a good pitcher even at “full” strength – his command is too erratic, he hangs too many breaking pitches, he falls behind or runs the count full on almost every hitter, and he has to “gut” his way out of every appearance.
In my mind, that’s not a “good” closer, despite his save percentage from last year. Essentially, he was moreless lucky or fortunate, as he converted some save opportunities only because his defense caught some hard-hit balls or they were right at one of our defenders. Very few of his outings did he actually go out and dominate or shut them down 1-2-3.
That, in my opinion, is the definition of a good closer, someone you know is going to shut down the opposing offense more times than not and where the other team essentially knows they’re going to be in one “hell” of a dogfight. When you face closers like Rivera, Papelbon, Nathan, etc., that’s what other teams likely say. I highly doubt anyone “fears” Joe Borowski, not with his track record of allowing baserunners to come on board and the number of H/IP he gives up. Heck, a lot of teams probably “lick their chops” waiting to face him, so really, I think we could do a lot better at closer with the other relievers we have rather than stick with JoeBo, regardless of how he did last year.
I’d like to go back to the days when you feel pretty confident your closer will nail down the 9th inning (Mesa in his prime, Jackson, even Wickman early in his Indians’ career, etc.) – honestly, can you really say you’re comfortable or confident when JoeBo comes in that we are going to win the ballgame? I don’t, not even last year, and certainly, not this year.
Keep him out of the back-end of the bullpen – I just hope Wedge is thinking the same way.
Just my 2 cents – no offense. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I agree, except if Borowksi is still the the closer on June 31 I will shout for Wedge's departure from major league managing. This is a May 1 decision, not a July 1 decision
by Ryan Kelsey on Apr 15, 2008 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Another possibility, sort of a dark horse, is that Borowski might actually accept a minor league assignment. I ordinarily wouldn't speculate that, but Borowski is a good dude, he's got his money, the Indians have stuck by him steadfastly, and he has a real problem with his velocity that can't be denying. So maybe he'd be willing to go to the minors, salary intact, and see if he can't straighten himself out.
He obviously would clear waivers, since any team claiming him would be taking his $4 million salary.
Borowski - from the AP take on tonight's game:
Borowski has blown two saves in a row, and is so concerned about a loss in velocity that he’s going to have his arm examined.
"I’m grasping at straws. I think we’re going to get it checked. Maybe it’s nothing, maybe it is. It’s driving me crazy, too," he said.
and
"I just felt like I had nothing, like I was throwing through water," Borowski said. "It’s like I’m stuck in one gear. I had no extra gear. Not only that, I couldn’t locate. What hurts is the guys played a great game except the one guy out there at the end."
Seems like this is shaping up to be a pretty clear DL situation.
I've gotta wonder how he felt warming up in the pen. . . .
It’s like the final scene of Rookie of the Year when Chet’s arm just gives out.
by supermarioelia on Apr 15, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
More on Borowski from Hoynes:
Borowski met with Tribe manager Eric Wedge, General Manager Mark Shapiro and the team's medical staff after the game to discuss the condition of his right arm and shoulder.
"I hope we can pinpoint something," said Borowski. "Right now, it's driving me crazy. I'm grasping at straws. Maybe it's something. Maybe it's nothing."
He could undergo tests today.
With the blockquote tags, you have to format everything with html manually. Surround your paragraphs with “p” and ”/p” tags.
by fleerdon on Apr 15, 2008 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions
What was that pitch exactly?
"[It was] like a fastball," Ramirez said. "It was something like 80 [mph]. Or a changeup. It was right there."
For all the “Manny being Manny” talk, most of the time when he opens his mouth about hitting (which I don’t think is very often), I’m pretty impressed. Since he was with us; the guy is a prodigious hitter, and knows as much or more about hitting intuitively than 99% of the world will ever learn. He was one of my all time favorites with us (getting picked off in the ‘95 Series notwithstanding), and if he wasn’t a Red Sox HOF’er he’d be my favorite non-Indian to this day.
Il faut d'abord durer.
Current AL Central Standings:
KC
Chicago
Minnesota
Cleveland
Detroit
Does anything look askew to anyone else - or are we officially in Bizarro World?
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
I’m reading that borowski is going for an MRI after the game. lets say this is an arm problem – what took till tonight to take it seriously? why wasn’t this looked at before? why didn’t his speed reduction ring alarm bells before he was in a pressure situation?
was he expected to, all of a sudden, in game, gain back the speed he hasn’t had? was this being examined objectively, proactively?
I don’t get it.
my helmet has, like, no pine tar on it.
Hello joeee,
My thoughts exactly – why didn’t they check Borowski’s arm after he blew last week’s save? If I recall correctly, he wasn’t throwing all that hard last week either (though, personally, I don’t think it really matters if he throws mid-80s or around 90 – I still don’t like him in the closer’s role, even with his performance last season. As mentioned in the game recap, “every save is an adventure with him” and it’s almost a matter of luck whether he can get through the 9th inning without giving up any runs and/or get the save, even if he is throwing around 90 MPH, let alone 83 MPH.)
Right now, I trust EVERYONE else in that bullpen more than I do JoeBo – and yes, that includes Breslow, Kobayashi, and Julio – JoeBo basically pitches on guts, but if his command isn’t perfect, he gets tattooed, even when he was throwing 90 MPH.
Personally, I think it’s time for a change in the closer’s role (something Wedge isn’t willing to do at this point unless he has to make a change, according to the game recap, which if JoeBo is going to get his arm checked out, that means he’ll have to make a change, and I sure hope JoeBo NEVER regains the closer’s role, a role he inherited by default last season.) I’d take Betancourt, even with his inconsistency in command early on this season, over JoeBo as the closer. I’d also take Perez or Lewis in the closer’s role over JoeBo.
Granted, these guys aren’t as “experienced” as JoeBo in the closer’s role, but all three have better stuff than JoeBo, arguably have better command than JoeBo, and are more likely to strike guys out and dominate than JoeBo. Plus, you’ll never know if these guys can or can’t close if you don’t put them in the closer’s role, and let’s face it, these guys are going to be here in the coming years; I really can’t see JoeBo being here beyond 2008 (I certainly hope he isn’t.) Plus, while Betancourt wasn’t stellar as the closer in the early part of 2004, he did a decent enough job (arguably better than JoeBo has done so far in 2008) before he went down with an arm injury due to overuse because the rest of that 2004 bullpen couldn’t keep runs from scoring.
Therefore, I’d nominate Betancourt to be the new closer and have Perez and Lewis as his set-up guys, with Breslow, Kobayashi, and Julio to be the frontline guys. If/When JoeBo comes back (I presume the Indians won’t DFA him, though I wouldn’t mind seeing that,) put him in mop-up duty to start off, then perhaps work him in with the frontline group. The ONLY way I’d want him as a setup-guy or the closer again is if Betancourt/Perez/Lewis falter miserably at the back-end and a combination of the other guys hasn’t worked either if they’ve pitched very well at the front-end. In other words, JoeBo should only go back into the back-end of the bullpen as a last resort (and I’d probably even try some prospects like Adam Miller, Brian Slocum, or maybe even J.D. Martin back there first before putting JoeBo back there again.)
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
ok. if thats the case: was he expected to function while throwing low 80s?
my helmet has, like, no pine tar on it.
I think they thought YES. His velocity sucked all ST and obviously now. So they were hoping for it to gradually increase as he built arm strength back up. Only he has been regressing for the past 3 years. I guess they thought he would come out and find an extra gear in these situations vice his ST velocity fastball errr. changeup errr meatball errr batting practice pitch.
“I just felt like I had nothing,” Borowski said. “It felt like throwing through water, pretty much. Physically, I felt fine, but I was stuck in one gear. I had no extra gear. Not only that, but I couldn’t locate either. So it was a double-edged sword.”
If Borowski knew he had “nothing” on the mound, he should have motioned for the trainers and Wedge to come out of the dugout and tell them about it – it doesn’t help the team to throw “whatever you have out there” and hope it will be enough – the team fought hard to get that lead and was in prime position to defeat the Red Sox and get just our 2nd 2-game winning streak on the season (the longest we’ve had to this point.)
Instead, in my opinion, JoeBo does the wrong thing and hurts the team. Jensen Lewis, Masa Kobayashi, and Jorge Julio were all in the bullpen, and all three have completed games before (and I know Kobayashi and Julio for sure have been in the closer’s role before, so it’s not like Wedge didn’t have other options to go to if JoeBo had to come out of the game, and when he realized he didn’t have “anything,” JoeBo should have stepped up and said, “I’m not helping the team and giving us the best chance to win. Put someone else in there who is at full strength and who gives us the better chance to seal this win.”)
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Masahide is on the all-time saves leader list for the JBL. Being stationed out here, I can tell you that these guys are nuts about baseball. Many of these players are Major League ready but the JBL requires 9-10 years service out of them before they allow them to explore the major leagues. That is why it cost an extra 50 mil to get that pitcher …whats his name… to sign with the BoSox. They bought out his contract. So yeah, Masa is ready, has been ready, and could have easily stepped into that role. Maybe next start, Westbrook will think twice before he “trusts” the bullpen and just opts to throw another CG. That is the only win he has with that low an ERA, and an offense like the Tribe’s, he should be 3-0 right now.
Joe, I’m not going after you personally here, and not all of the following arguments are yours; you’re saying some things that are representative of the whole forum, and I want to offer some counter-points.
1. “If Borowski knew he had nothing, he should have said so.” That sounds like an explanation in retrospect to me. If guys could actually tell when they were going to throw a meatball, nobody would ever make a mistake.
2. “Why didn’t the trainers check him out after the last blown save?” Nobody’s seriously questioning the diligence of the Indians’ training staff, right? The one that agents regularly call the best in the majors? Good. Just checking.
3. “Wedge should have used somebody else.” Either Joe Borowski is a major league back-end reliever, or he isn’t. Eric Wedge didn’t sign the guy; Eric Wedge didn’t extend him. Eric Wedge called on him to do his job, which is his until the organization decides otherwise. What kind of precedent would it set if that weren’t true? We’ll pull you on suspicion of incompetence? That’s just not how they do business. Except with Andy Marte.
4. “The team fought hard and Joe let them down.” Yeah, sort of Joe let them down. But can we back up a bit? How about Casey friggin’ Blake’s gritty, patient, experienced, proven performer, known quantity, “better than Andy Marte” late-inning RISP groundout? My boy Franklin Gutierrez windmilling? How about that 2-out, RISP first-pitch excuse-me swinging weak flyout from Jason Michaels? How about a major league offense laying down for the 64-year-old Julian Tavarez for 9 outs? The bullpen will give up runs late against good offenses. That’s Manny Ramirez. It happens. That’s why you score runs.
by fleerdon on Apr 15, 2008 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Joe Borowski is not a league average major league reliever. There are 6-7 guys on the roster (and in the minors) that are better at facing major league hitters in any situation than Joe Borowski.
All else is irrelevant.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 15, 2008 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions
All else is most certainly not irrelevant. Replace Joe Borowski with whomever, and this is probably still a sub .500 club at the moment. We’ve got two bum starters and a handful of offensive no-shows, and if Stomp or Fastball George or ‘yashi had served up that tater last night, it would be those bum starters and those offensive no-shows we’d be hot about. Which goes to show: Bullpens will give up runs. You lose some games this way. Sabathia, Byrd, Blake, Michaels, Blake, Guiterrez, Blake, and Blake are the guys who are killing us right now. Borowski’s just easier to yell at.
by fleerdon on Apr 15, 2008 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
That was a pretty magnificent blown save against some guys that are not offensive juggernauts. (Lugo, crisp, casey, etc)
I dont doubt that we would be mad about a blown save if it was anyone else; however! this is the second in 3 games and shows absolutely no sign of change. The overall strength of the bullpen goes up if you replace JoeBo with elarton, mastny, stevens, or miller; there are other people who can close games out on this roster.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 15, 2008 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
All true. Borowski lost these two games, and as you and V mention, that’s something we can sort out. From where I’m sitting, though, Borowski’s a zit, and the offense and the crummy 2/5s of the rotation is meningitis.
by fleerdon on Apr 15, 2008 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
No, you’re right. A lot of inept performances are getting ignored right now because of Borowski’s blown save. There’s a lot more blame to go around, but that doesn’t mean Borowski shouldn’t go.
1/5th of the rotation has meningitis. CC is strep; incredibly painful but quick to clear up.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 15, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Eric Wedge didn’t sign the guy; Eric Wedge didn’t extend him. Eric Wedge called on him to do his job, which is his until the organization decides otherwise.
Ack! Can we please put this argument to rest? It’s Wedge’s job to use the players he is given in the best way possible. He is not doing that with Joe B.
....I will concede that player decisions (including PT) are probably comes from the two-headed monster.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 15, 2008 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think so, necessarily. I think Wedge has final say on what players to use when, but there are collaborative discussions on every subject. The front office weighs in on deployment, and Wedge weighs in on acquisition.
Wedge is accountable for sending him out there, but I think more critically for leaving him out there.
Hello Jay,
I definitely agree in regards to Wedge’s accountability there – he should have known there was something wrong with Borowski and not be so adamant about him going out there and staying out there in every save situation, regardless of whether he is the closer or not.
That is arguably one weakness Wedge has as a manager – I can understand being “loyal” to your players and to sticking to “defined roles,” but when it is not in the best interest of the team and when it very likely could cost you a victory (or at least an easier victory if JoeBo manages to get out of the 9th inning with the tie intact,) then I don’t think you should stick to “defined roles” and “loyalty.”
The win for the team should always be the most important thing, and if you have to go outside “defined roles” and “loyalty” to give you the best chance to win (and I think having another reliever out there would have been better than JoeBo being out there, especially after giving up the leadoff double to Lugo,) then I think you HAVE to do it.
No offense, but I think that’s one area Wedge could improve upon as a manager – I understand loyalty and defined roles have their place, and work often, but when it’s fairly obvious that JoeBo is not your best option in the 9th inning with the way he is throwing, then there is no reasonable explanation in my opinion that would allow him to stay out there and be called “the best chance for us to win.”
From what I read and heard, Wedge wasn’t even committed to removing Borowski out of the closer’s role unless there was something wrong – that comment made me cringe. I sure hope when Borowski returns that Wedge does NOT return him to the closer’s role right away. I wouldn’t even put him as a setup man; I would have him work in the front-end, preferably in mop-up duty, and force Borowski to earn his way to the back-end of the bullpen, and if necessary, to the closer’s role.
As I’ve mentioned before, Betancourt/Perez/Lewis/Kobayashi will definitely be here in 2009; JoeBo is no certainty, so why we don’t try out one of the four above as the closer (Betancourt being my first choice) and STICK with him as the long-term closer for this season, unless he totally bombs at the opportunity, I have no idea. I think that is the best way to go, as we’ll need to eventually replace JoeBo as the closer in all likelihood anyway, so why not just start now and keep it that way?
I just hope Wedge sees it the same way and doesn’t insist on putting Borowski back in the closer’s role when he returns, a position he inherited by default because Foulke retired last ST – if Borowski would have had to earn the position, I don’t know if he would have outpitched Betancourt last spring, so why force Betancourt out of there when Borowski returns, especially if Betancourt does a solid to great job there while JoeBo is away?
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Nobody’s seriously questioning the diligence of the Indians’ training staff, right? The one that agents regularly call the best in the majors? Good. Just checking.
thats why im confused. i don’t question the staff, and im not questioning shapiro. i remember a jay post a few months back that marveled at how the indians got 40 saves out of a guy who’s arm was a blown apart dead thing. do you think the “mri” talk was just coded language for a canning? i dont believe anything was missed with borowskis arm, even though my previous post sort of makes it seem that way. im sure they knew what was up with jobo – which is why i cant believe he was still allowed to pitch.
my helmet has, like, no pine tar on it.
He might be a difficult case. They already know his shoulder’s in tatters and that he’s on borrowed time. If he’s still got a full range of motion and no more pain than usual, how then do you distinguish between the normal shoulder-in-tatters and the abnormal and/or career-ended shoulder-in-tatters? Performance alone? I dunno, I’m way out of my area here.
by fleerdon on Apr 15, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Hello fleerdon,
I appreciate you clarifying that your post is meant for the whole forum, and not just in response to my post – thank you.
I will reply to your counterarguments.
1. "If Borowski knew he had nothing, he should have said so." “That sounds like an explanation in retrospect to me. If guys could actually tell when they were going to throw a meatball, nobody would ever make a mistake.”
No offense, but Borowski’s velocity has been down since Spring Training, so it’s not like this is something new. In addition, from what I have heard and read, there have been concerns about his arm and arm strength since Spring Training, including in his last blown save, so it’s likely Borowski knew something was not right, especially after he threw his first few pitches to Lugo, but instead of doing the right thing and telling Wedge and the trainers that there was a problem with his arm strength and that he likely wouldn’t get the job done, he goes ahead, “guts” it out, and blows it for us. I think more people, including his teammates, would have appreciated it better if he would have let them know that he was not 100% and would have taken himself out of the ballgame.
Many complain that young pitchers don’t let the coaching staff know about when they have an injury and try to pitch through it – Adam Miller was a fairly recent example back in 2005 and it cost him a whole season of development. Borowski, who’s in his 12th season in the MLs and is 36-YO, should have had enough sense to tell the coaching staff that there was something not right and should have removed himself from the game. As mentioned above, this isn’t the first inkling something was wrong, and to go out there when you pretty much you have nothing after the first few pitches and the first batter, who is 0 for his last 16, gets a solid double down the LF line, that right there should have been enough of an indicator to wave Wedge and the trainers out there and tell them that someone else should attempt to wrap this up.
“2. "Why didn’t the trainers check him out after the last blown save?" Nobody’s seriously questioning the diligence of the Indians’ training staff, right? The one that agents regularly call the best in the majors? Good. Just checking.”
I’m not questioning the Indians’ medical staff, per se, but I do question why Borowski’s arm wasn’t looked at a little more closely if the reported discomfort he’s had is true. Either Borowski tried to say that everything was fine and it wasn’t (and that makes Borowski look bad again for the reason I mentioned above in #1,) or someone may have missed something. Or, as was mentioned on a thread on the home page, perhaps this is a “phantom injury,” just to try to help save face because Borowski has blown two straight save chances and has looked pretty bad in blowing them.
If the Indians’ medical staff did miss the severity of the injury, does that mean they are a poor medical staff? Of course not, but they too are human, and perhaps they didn’t run every possible test because JoeBo may have told them it was nothing and convinced them of it, especially since he is often erratic in his pitching and is prone to blowing saves pretty badly in some of his outings. It may have just been his erraticness that caused him to look like this, but JoeBo sounds like he may have knew there was more to it, due to the loss in velocity, but tried to convince the Indians it was nothing, and they trusted him, thinking he knew his own body.
3. "Wedge should have used somebody else." Either Joe Borowski is a major league back-end reliever, or he isn’t. Eric Wedge didn’t sign the guy; Eric Wedge didn’t extend him. Eric Wedge called on him to do his job, which is his until the organization decides otherwise. What kind of precedent would it set if that weren’t true? We’ll pull you on suspicion of incompetence? That’s just not how they do business. Except with Andy Marte.
Again, as I mentioned in my original post, Wedge still had Perez, Lewis, Julio, and Kobayashi in the bullpen, all of whom have finished games to some extent (in the Minors mostly with the first two,) and the last two with extensive closer experience at the highest professional level. Therefore, Wedge had options, and he had to see that Borowski was not right – he could have made a move that some managers probably would have made.
This idea that Borowski is the “closer,” and thereby, we have to “live or die” with him is weak in my opinion – you don’t sacrifice the good of the team, the morale of the team, and the win for the team just so that your closer can remain out there when he was clearly not right, and hasn’t been right so far this season. Borowski and the media reports have essentially confirmed that, which is why Wedge should not have stuck with him, and preferably, shouldn’t have even put him out there to begin with. But once Borowski gave up the double and the velocity was down as much as it was, Wedge and/or Borowski should have figured out that Borowski should not have remained out there any longer in that inning and replaced him with one of the aforementioned pitchers to attempt to lock down the save opportunity and the victory.
4. "The team fought hard and Joe let them down." “Yeah, sort of Joe let them down. But can we back up a bit? How about Casey friggin’ Blake’s gritty, patient, experienced, proven performer, known quantity, "better than Andy Marte" late-inning RISP groundout? My boy Franklin Gutierrez windmilling? How about that 2-out, RISP first-pitch excuse-me swinging weak flyout from Jason Michaels? How about a major league offense laying down for the 64-year-old Julian Tavarez for 9 outs? The bullpen will give up runs late against good offenses. That’s Manny Ramirez. It happens. That’s why you score runs.”
No offense, but don’t let Borowski off the hook on this. Granted, the Indians could have scored more runs, but must we lose every time we fail to tack onto a lead because our closer can’t protect a 1-run lead? That has happened two straight times this season, and several other times last season (including games we were able to come back and win in extra innings, despite JoeBo blowing a save in the 9th inning.)
It’s the closer’s job to nail down the save, regardless of how many chances we blew to extend the lead. The point was, Borowski had the lead going into the 9th inning, and it’s his job to nail down the win. What does that say about our closer when we MUST give him a 2-run, 3-run, 4-run lead in order for him to nail down the win? I’m sorry, but that’s a weak argument.
A closer should be able to nail down a 1-run lead, even against a quality team like Boston, most of the time, even if we didn’t extend the lead. And heck, not only did Borowski not save the lead for us, he couldn’t even save the tie, forcing our offense to score 2+ runs off a better closer with better stuff in Papelbon. And keep in mind, Borowski gives up a leadoff double to the 0 for his last 16 Lugo, then gives up a flare hit to Big Papi, who wasn’t batting .100 before that AB – virtually everyone has been getting him out to this point.
A better pitcher with better stuff likely can better keep an offense, even as good as the Red Sox, from scoring 3 runs in the 9th inning. SSS understood, but LHP Rafael Perez struck out J.D. Drew, one of the hottest Red Sox, on 3 pitches.
I understand that you win and lose as a team, and yes, there were chances for the Indians to extend the lead, but the closer can’t always have a 2, 3, or 4-run lead; he has to protect 1-run leads at times, even against good offenses, and his job is to lock up the win. Borowski got that save opportunity, and coughed it up miserably, enough where he gives up the tie as well. That is why the main blame for this loss is on him; the Indians’ offense and bullpen got the lead to him in the 9th inning – it’s his job to finish it, and he didn’t do it. That is why we lost the game – he does his job, we win. That is why people are saying “Joe let them down,” NOT “sort of let them down,” no offense.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I’m not contesting that Borowski is responsible for this game—far be it for me to argue with WPA. I’m saying that this is the American League. In the great context of this season, if we continue to hit like toads, we will continue to blow late leads, because they won’t be big enough. Replacing Borowski with Betancourt is no kind of panacea for scoring 3 runs; neither, for that matter, is reforming Eric Wedge’s reliever usage.
And let’s remember who beat us here. We’d like to think it was Papelbon and Okajima. It wasn’t. It was an inexperienced control lefty, a knuckleballer we’ve got lots of experience against, and a couple of so-so middle relievers. They just shut our offense down with the B-squad. Borowski had nothing to do with that.
by fleerdon on Apr 16, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
The beauty of the blown save is that it negates all the good and bad that came before it.
Like laying a big smelly turd on a hot plate of food. Your meat was browned to perfection? Doesn’t matter .. there is a big turd on your plate. Your mashed potatoes are runny and have too much garlic on them? Doesn’t matter .. there is a big heaping turd on your plate.
I mean, ya, it was great to see Hafner locked in. Great to see Westbrook continue his great pitching. Disconcerting to see Franky G and Dellucci struggle. But it all doesn’t matter. There is a big giant turd on last nights game.
Lost in all this is Wedge’s inability to put the team in the best position to succeed defensively in the 9th inning. How many times does guarding the line work? Can we stop guarding the line in the 9th inning now, please?
If Casey Blake is in normal position, Julio Lugo’s leadoff double is a routine ground out. And if someone other than Dellucci with his bad wheels and noodle arm is playing left field, even if it gets past Blake it’s a single rather than a double.
And that pop down the line from Ortiz – again, if someone with wheels is in left field, there’s a good chance they get to that ball. Dellucci was two steps late – as long as that ball held up in the air, do you think Michaels or Ben Francisco could make up those two steps and get that ball for the third out so that Ramirez never steps to the plate?
I know that Wedge already used Michaels and that he was gone, but the Indians had a better defensive left fielder at third base and TWO better defensive third basemen (Marte and Jamey Carroll) sitting on the bench.
Wedge lost this game not only because of his insistence on bringing in He Who Shall Not Be Named to “close”, but also because he didn’t put his best defensive team on the field and he made the terrible strategic decision to guard the line.
Free Andy Marte!
20/20 hindsight is a bitch
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2008 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
2 outs and a runner on 1st, Borowski serves up a low-80s meatball to Manny Ramirez which he jacks into the bleachers, and we lost because of bad defensive management? Seriously?
Groundballs find holes all the time. Bloop hits happen. You can’t blame the manager for bad luck, especially when the closer admits after the game he has nothing on any of his pitches. Jason Michaels does not deserve to set foot on a baseball field right now, and why he even started the game is a mystery to me. Whoever is playing left in that circumstance is playing deep anyway to prevent a double, so chances are he doesn’t get to a bloop hit in shallow left regardless. As for Blake, we all know his range at third is suspect, and that isn’t why we lost. We lost because of 1) Borowski, 2) wasted offensive opportunities, particularly in the 8th. I don’t get why every instance of incompetence has to be laid at the doorstep of Eric Wedge.
My point is that Ramirez would never have been at bat if Wedge hadn’t screwed up the team’s defense. That’s all. I’m not trying to excuse Borowski’s incompetence. I’m saying that Wedge screwed up and that it should be noted. The manager must put the players out there who have the best potential to succeed. The fact is that the balls found the holes because Wedge put that lineup out there at that time.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Apr 15, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
We may not have had a lead in the first place were it not for some of his good decisions. The manager could be said to have screwed up any time anything bad happens, under any circumstances. Kobayashi could decide to relieve himself on the mound and we could yell at Wedge for bringing him in. None of his decisions were unreasonable at the time they were made, and the fault should lie with the players. I’m sorry to belabor this, but I don’t get the insistence to drag Wedge into everything.
It’s frustrating that Dellucci was out there, but c’mon, no one complained when he came in to pinchhit for Michaels. We had no other options in the 9th defensively.
by supermarioelia on Apr 15, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
blake in left, marte at 3rd. that was the best defensive alignment.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 15, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Or Blake in left, Carroll at 3B. If you carry Casey Blake because of his versatility, then you should use that versatility on occasion.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Apr 15, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
You guys need to calm the hell down about this.
Dellucci actually has decent range, though his arm isn’t great.
Blake hasn’t played the outfield in nearly a year.
Blake has never played LF—never.
The idea that Blake would have been better out there is dim. You are not onto something here.
Seriously. If we’d put Blake out there and he made an error, we’d never hear the end of it.
by supermarioelia on Apr 15, 2008 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I did not realize Blake’s outfield experience did not include left field. I will retract my argument re: Blake in left and someone else at 3B.
I will not retract my disgust for getting burned badly by the “no doubles” defense.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Apr 16, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
The best part is he says he was looking for stuff about Joe B. blowing up. Claims he didn’t see anything. Apparently he does not know how to read a game thread. Anyone want to e-mail him and point out the above 10,000 posts?
i imagine some of it has to do with the “venting” that went on, and its decidedly non-pg nature. nonetheless, i imagine Neyer definitely saw the game thread and was amused by it, based on his chats.
Hmm. Some of the stuff coming out after midnight/this morning seemed pretty level-headed in nature. Ah well, I’m sure Jay will have a great summary/write-up coming out soon,.
Do you know I woke up in the middle of the night twice last night and remembered that I was angry? Im 100% serious.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 15, 2008 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
oh, yeah, i just meant that he might not want to link to it, given his audience.
i totally have the tshirt he links to at the end.
well, if i didn’t want to pay the money, i’d, ahem, use my friend’s account. i mean, in theory you could have a group of 10 guys or so all share one account/login… in theory, of course.
here’s the shirt:
http://www.shelflifeclothing.com/shirtpages/caucasians.html
I just bought that shirt. And i’m only slightly ashamed of myself.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 15, 2008 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m still laughing about the Ché T-shirt that says “I have no idea who this guy is.”
by fleerdon on Apr 15, 2008 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, that shirt is pretty clutch.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 15, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I wish there was a $5/month Neyer-only subscription.
by fleerdon on Apr 15, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
The boards at Theclevelandfan.com coupled with the 1000+ posts here makes me believe that this is an unprecedented amount of angst and anger broiling in cleveland today for a regular season game.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
It’s the Red Sox. Last nights game felt more important than a game in April. On top of that this team is in need of some serious momentum….but can’t get any. Both Cliff Lee Sunday wins have been followed up by Blowroski games.It’s sickening.
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