Borowski to the DL, Mastny called up
by millionairesrow on Apr 15, 2008 1:49 PM EDT
142 comments
According to the PD, Bororwski has been placed on the DL with a triceps injury, and Mastny has been called up to take his spot on the roster. Wedge is supposed to address the closer issue prior to the game tonight, with speculation that Betancourt will get the first shot.
I'm wondering (Indians claims to the contrary notwithstanding) if the tests showed any real damage, or if this is just a phantom injury. It will be interesting to see how our uber-Manager handles this latest twist. Can Casey Blake close games?
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Here’s to hoping that whoever is given the closer job can handle it. Trust in Raffy.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2008 1:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don’t care what anybody says. Fastball George is the man.
by fleerdon on Apr 15, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Raffy was uneven last night - bad pitch to Casey, who fortunately has warning track power only. He has the stuff to close, and he battles. I imagine he gets first shot, but I wouldn’t be totally surprised to see someone else get a shot pretty quick if Raffie falters (not Julio; Masa is my guess). Interesting thought for tonight - Raffie has pitched two nights in a row, more than one inning last night. In the unlikely event that it’s close tonight, who closes? Might be Masa sooner than we think!!
by peter m on Apr 15, 2008 1:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is a strained tricep a euphemism for “out with teh suck”? What are the chances we see him again? As the closer?
LeCavs!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
by Matt in LA on Apr 15, 2008 1:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Somewhere between “not good” and “none at all” for the first question – he might come back for low leverage someday. Somewhere between “none at all” and “none at all” for the second – somebody else will fill the role, or it won’t matter whether he comes back.
by pdxtribefan on Apr 15, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m so excited right now I want to scream. This is awesome.
by Joe. on Apr 15, 2008 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Am I a callous and unfeeling human being to be so overjoyed to see someone go on the DL?
by bogey021 on Apr 15, 2008 1:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not when it was apparent that he is not physically the same as he was last year. Its not like its unfathomable for his are to deteriorate after last season. Remember Philly past on him for the two year deal, The Indians got him on a one year and an option (i.e. if he doesn’t make it through the first year than they aren’t stuck with his contract for an extra year). And he’s a pitcher. They tend to get injured. The DL and rehab is the best thing for him right now. I can guarantee that if he doesn’t correct his loss velocity and location problems that he will not be on this team in any meaningful role though.
by hans on Apr 15, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey guys, did you know this Mastny guy is from indonesia?
by gte619n on Apr 15, 2008 1:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m also thinking Masa will be installed in the pitch-the-9th-with-a-lead-of-three-runs-or-less role. I sure hope they continue to use Raffy B in the “fireman” role, and that he goes back to his unhittable ways soon.
by mrich on Apr 15, 2008 1:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yup, I really don’t care who closes as long as it’s not Raffy B. He’s perfect where he is right now.
by Voltaire on Apr 15, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think its either Masa or Julio.
I haven’t been thrilled with anyone in the bullpen though, so we shall see.
by mjschaefer on Apr 15, 2008 1:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m mystified why anyone thinks it won’t be Betancourt. It’s his turn, and he’s the best.
by Jay on Apr 15, 2008 1:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Being better than JoeBo didn’t stop the brass from keeping him away from the closer role.
by mrich on Apr 15, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s gotta be Raffy B. Warn RoyalsReview now.
by JulioBernazard on Apr 15, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, don’t worry, royalsreview knows. However, if Raffy B pitches to Jose Guillen with the game on the line at some point this year, I think the destroyed innocence quotient will be palpable enough to wreck his hard drive.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Apr 15, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think Royalsreview has a Google News alert for Raffy-R.
Il faut d'abord durer.
by CU Adam on Apr 15, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you’re right, it will be Betancourt. But wouldn’t you agree that he’s more valuable in his current role?
by Voltaire on Apr 15, 2008 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No. I think he will be most valuable as a closer that we’re not afraid to use in the 8th, and who is our first choice in any tie game in extras. In other words, a maximized closer role, as opposed to the minimized closer to which we’ve become accustomed.
Who knows? If there was ever a moment to try the Relief Ace, this would be it. Make Julio or Masa the “second closer,” in charge of three-run saves and various 7th/8th work. Stomp and Steel become the assassins.
by Jay on Apr 15, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i wonder is the general reluctance to slot betancount in the closer role based on his stuff? his success is entirely predicated on the fastball, and even though we love him we actually suspect his success might be flukey, and don’t want to throw him in the fire?
by emil minty on Apr 15, 2008 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We don’t suspect that. At least, if we did worry about flukey relievers, he’d be last on the list.
by dgcambridge on Apr 15, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he’s too calm? Seriously, people like their closers to be animated or gritty or a young gun or scowl at opposing batters. You’re not supposed to have pinpoint control and take 30 seconds between pitches – it’s so boring.
by Thommy on Apr 15, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh. True dat. I caught some of Pimplebutt’s face-pulling on the “highlights” last night. You have to hand it to the guy: not only does he have the stuff, but he knows how to milk the moment.
God, I hate him. Can we have one?
--
"I love baseball. You know it doesn't have to mean anything, it's just beautiful to watch." - Woody Allen
by vbc3 on Apr 15, 2008 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. Voltaire, I understand liking how we’ve been using Betancourt, except that if we carve out all save chances for our new “closer”, then we are keeping a good bit of our highest leverage situations away from our best reliever. Jay’s maximized closer is best, but if we’re not going to do that, let’s at least put Betancourt in the traditional role.
by dgcambridge on Apr 15, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm. We must be using different terms to describe the same thing – because I, too, am advocating for a Relief Ace. I just think Wedge will never do that, and so given a choice between 7/8 and 9, we’d want Betancourt in 7/8.
by Voltaire on Apr 15, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two different things. We both know what Relief Ace means generally, but by “maximized closer” I just mean that we don’t only use him when we “have to” according to the Save rule. Lots of closers get brought into tie games, or brought in for the end of the game but before the 9th, the 4- or 5-out save. We’re not used to thinking of the closer as a guy who could get used before the 9th, or in a tie game on the road, but that’s just because we haven’t had a dominant closer for years and years.
by Jay on Apr 15, 2008 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bob Wickman is going to be pissed when he reads this.
by afh4 on Apr 15, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course we don’t use Raffy based on the saves rule – we’re in complete agreement there.
Are 4/5 out closers actually that common? Or tie-game closers? Sure, you see it more frequently in non-Indians games, but I am under the impression it’s still uncommon (correct me if I’m wrong, as I’m sure someone will).
by Voltaire on Apr 15, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree Jay, but the problem with this logic is the assumption that Wedge will use Betancourt like that. I’m not saying he won’t use him in the 8 and 9th, but there isn’t a track record to suggest that he will. So I’ll sit on the fence on this one and say that if Wedge’s plan is to slot an RP into the closer role and plans to use him in the same manner that he used that guy on the DL, then I’d rather that be someone other than Betancourt. He’s the guy I want coming in those high leverage (2 on and 1 out) type-situations in the 7/8 inning.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Apr 15, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d like to a more flexible use of closers too. But, Wedge obviously likes to have clearly defined roles for relievers, and having a closer whose role varies significantly makes that harder to achieve. Not that he’s right, but that’s his approach.
Also, how durable is Betancourt at this point? A couple of years ago, I recall talk about not using him on consecutive days and things like that. They didn’t seem to worry about this last year. Is that no longer an issue for him?
by peter m on Apr 15, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
can anyone explain why Wedge likes to have clearly defined roles for relievers? i mean, is there a legitimate argument for this at all? if so, can someone play devil’s advocate and present it?
i’m just stumped as to why the roles can’t be more complexly defined. why should there not be a designated 3- or 4-run closer? there’s no reason to waste your best reliever on a situation like that, unless he just needs work or something.
by still ill on Apr 15, 2008 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think sometimes we tend to understate how much it means to these guys to know what their role is going to be every day. Moving guys from one situation to another could have a significant impact on an already emotionally fragile group of folks (e.g. relievers in general).
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2008 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Emotionally fragile? They make six or seven figure salaries and play baseball! What’s there to be so emotionally fragile about?
by emd2k3 on Apr 16, 2008 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In an ideal world, the manager could look ahead, see how every inning was going to unfold and could use his best relievers in the highest leverage situations.
Failing that, I think Wedge is a big believer in a human element that goes beyond stats or leverage. Read through the game threads – fans who watch most of the games can almost always identify (or at least narrow it down to 2 to 3) who will be coming in when. It is not like that with other managers who are more likely to go with a hunch or play specific match-ups.
The pitchers themselves have the same certainty and can prepare themselves as well as possible to succeed in their roles. There is something to be said for Raffy-B knowing that he’s likely going to come in with baserunners on, late in the game, while JoBo knows that he’s is likely to start the 9th inning with a lead of 3 runs or less.
I don’t know if Wedge’s way is the best or not, but I certainly see the thought process – he wants his guys to know (before the game starts) how they’re likely going to be used. It should be noted that this does not necessarily eliminate Jay’s possibility above – using Raffy-B in a “maximed closer” role – as long as Wedge can define how that role would work.
by cajones on Apr 15, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knowing what your role is reduces stress by creating consistency. It makes it easier to prepare mentally for the situation you’ve being put in. As you become successful in that role, you gain confidence that you can handle it – and have that success again.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 15, 2008 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We could be baseball revolutionaries.
by supermarioelia on Apr 15, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you watch how the Red Sox handle Okajima and Papelbon, you will see that your closer can pitch high leverage 8/9 inning situations too, when necessary, and not lose a relief ace. (Perez/Lewis can tag team Oki’s role)
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 15, 2008 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s going to be Betancourt for numerous reasons.
Although I will miss his presence in cleaning up other people messes .. I will love he fact that we can bring him in in the 8th inning and have him finish out the game. That’s a powerful tool to have.
by Toxicadam on Apr 15, 2008 1:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re “phatom” injuries : does the league ask for any doctor’s note or anything when you DL a guy?
by JulioBernazard on Apr 15, 2008 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You mean, from the doctors paid by the team?
by fleerdon on Apr 15, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i recall that when wohlers flipped out in atlanta and was put on the DL, the medical reason provided was “inability to pitch.” i think the team is given pretty broad latitude in fashioning a medial excuse.
by emil minty on Apr 15, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like that. But, on some teams, anyway, how can you distinguish those on the DL from those NOT on the DL if that’s the criterion?
by peter m on Apr 15, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that fear of crying wolf is the most significant deterrent. Abuse the system, and your use of it will fall under greater scrutiny.
by fleerdon on Apr 15, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they can put a player on the DL and the player can contest the designation. By the quotes from the after game interviews, sounds like JoBo was willing to go.
by JK in CBus on Apr 15, 2008 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word on the street was that Borowski’s injury was validated by Byrd’s dentist.
by Fiddlesticks on Apr 15, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Word on the street is there was nothing wrong (in a medical sense) with JoBo’s arm after the game, but once Wedge and Shapiro got done twisting it, viola – strained triceps.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 15, 2008 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Yankees placed just Wilson Betemit on the DL with a case of conjunctivitis (aka pink eye), so I don’t think they’re all that strict about it.
by zempf on Apr 15, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From ESPN.com:
There are two Disabled Lists, the 15-day and 60-day. The only real difference between them is that players on the 60-day DL - sometimes called the Emergency DL - don’t count against a team’s 40-man roster.To be placed on either Disabled List, a player must be certified disabled by a doctor. That said, such certifications generally aren’t particularly difficult to acquire.
Players can be disabled retroactively, up to a maximum of 10 days, beginning with the day after the last day on which they played.
A player on the 15-day Disabled List may be shifted to the 60-day DL at any time.
According to the Rules, players on a Disabled List “may be assigned to a Minor League Club for the purpose of injury rehabilitation for a maximum of 20 days in the case of non-pitchers and 30 days in the case of pitchers.”
From my experience in litigation, it’s not hard to find some doctor who will say what you want him to say.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 15, 2008 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, why did it take 2 hours for someone to post this? Are you guys actually WORKING today? I think you need to find new employment.
by Toxicadam on Apr 15, 2008 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The news I wanted to see when I woke up this morning
One day I'll get over to watch the Tribe play
by new zealand tribe fan on Apr 15, 2008 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Amen.
Next Headlines:
Delucci takes bereavement leave (great great great uncle has disappeared or something)
Byrd retires or something
Blake goes on a hunting trip
All clearing the way for Marte, Francisco, and Laffey
It's the Arizona talking, really.
by RD74 on Apr 15, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why the Dellucci hating? It’s Michaels who is the chief impediment.
by Voltaire on Apr 15, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Michaels died. Dellucci is on leave to grieve for him?
by peter m on Apr 15, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Dellucci is helpful, valuable, and playing well!
by Voltaire on Apr 15, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not yesterday, he didn’t (play well, that is). But, I grant that he has played reasonably well over the last week.
I note your moniker—is it the best of all possible worlds? Could we do better than Dellucci (even in the real world)?
by peter m on Apr 15, 2008 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could we do better than Dellucci? Depends on how realistic we’re being. He’s OPS+ing 123, all against righties. That’s perfect.
by Voltaire on Apr 15, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s slow and has no arm. Based on only my opinion I think Francisco could put up the same numbers…I know….We’ve heard it all before.
It's the Arizona talking, really.
by RD74 on Apr 15, 2008 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dellucci grades out with surprisingly good range, and Francisco is no CF. Other than the arm, they aren’t as different as folks here have magically invented them to be.
by Jay on Apr 15, 2008 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are interchangeable in my book. Give them time and they’ll both end up sucking. I think I just hate Delucci’s beard most.
It's the Arizona talking, really.
by RD74 on Apr 15, 2008 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Blake scheduled to go hunting with Dick Cheney?
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 15, 2008 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully neither will come back
It's the Arizona talking, really.
by RD74 on Apr 15, 2008 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much the only thing that could have cooled me off after last night. Cleveland just breathed a collective sigh of relief, because regardless of who is closing games, we’re much better off.
And yes, I dont care, if the bullpen explodes circa 2006 you can quote that noun.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 15, 2008 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought some might appreciate this tidbit, apparently from the last time “Warrior” stunk the place out.
http://cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20040606&;content_id=762793&vkey=news_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc
Sound familiar? It almost reads like Jay’s infamous Peralta spoof.
by randallhank on Apr 15, 2008 3:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OK that didn’t work. technical assistance?
by randallhank on Apr 15, 2008 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Let’s see if this works:
I’ve been asking him the whole time, and Larry [Rothschild, the Cubs’ pitching coach] has been asking the whole time,” Baker said. “Joe, being the warrior that he is, [said] nothing hurts. It’s just something’s not right.
by randallhank on Apr 15, 2008 3:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
JoBo looked like a shotputter heaving the ball to the plate. He obviously has a physical problem – call it an injury, call it an old arm, call it what you will…
Raffy B might be the next in line to be closer, but I worry about messing up the bullpen by making that move. Let’s keep him in the Fireman role, and if that means entering the 8th with 2 outs, then he can finish the game. If that means entering the 9th after [enter name here] gives up a leadoff double, then that works. I prefer that he does not start the 9th inning with a 3 run lead. (I think this is what Jay is arguing).
Finally – if RaffyB fails as the closer, will he be too damaged to revert back to the setup role?
Spidey
by Spidey on Apr 15, 2008 3:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I seem to recall past reasoning for handing both Cabrera and Carmona the closer role…they keep getting people out and they have good stuff. Meanwhile, guys like Doug Jones, Wickman and 07 Borowski piled up saves.
I question if theres anyone outside of Masa who has displayed the kind of bulldog attitude for the job in the past. I dunno how one measures potential bulldogedness, but I hope mgmt has this as the major deciding point.
by elsandito on Apr 15, 2008 3:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is it so far fetched? I argued against relying on Cabrera to close despite a wall of disagreement at LGT. Sure, the closer needs a live arm or pin point location or some kind of baffling pitch. That would disqualify Borowski in his present state. But, I mean among remaining candidates, I would look for the guy who is battle tested with the game on the line. Someone who hasn’t already shown an inability to consistently close out games. I think Masa deserves first shot at this, all things considered.
by elsandito on Apr 15, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you need to consider how first batters fare against the potential closers. Betancourt has been great on this, and rarely walks anyone. Masa, so far, has looked a bit more tentative. I think it makes sense to use Betancourt in this role unless he proves he cant’ do it.
by peter m on Apr 15, 2008 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh man, we should definitely put the most bull-doggedest pitcher in the pen in the closer’s role!
that man: Joe Borowski.
by still ill on Apr 15, 2008 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely!
It reminds me of my 10 year old son’s little league manager last year. He told every kid who took the mound to “be confident, be aggressive, and throw strikes.” It was like a mantra.
I kept thinking that no measure of confidence or aggression would substitute for the fact that none of them had a clue (from a mechanical sense) of how to throw a strike – and the manager didn’t either.
A closer takes two things – a bulldogged mentality and “stuff.” JoBo had a lot of the former (he was from NJ after all) and less and less of the later as time went on. Two years ago, Fausto had plenty of the later and (we sadly found out), not enough of the former.
There are guys in the pen who have “stuff.” We’ll have to see if they have the mentality to use it in the 9th inning.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 15, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seem to recall past reasoning for handing both Cabrera and Carmona the closer role…they keep getting people out and they have good stuff. Meanwhile, guys like Doug Jones, Wickman and 07 Borowski piled up saves.
Paging Scott Elarton. . . .
(I noticed that he was brought in to pitch the ninth in Buffalo yesterday—though they had a big lead at the time.)
by ken from alexandria on Apr 15, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Raffy R is pitching in any role tonight; he’s pitched 2 2/3 innings in the last 2 days.
by palcal on Apr 15, 2008 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Despite the open-mindedness of keeping Raffy B in the setup role (which may or may not be the best thing), the fact is that he deserves the closer role. I’m as guilty as anyone when it comes to getting stuck on statistics and ideal usage (ideals?), but Raffy is the most (MLB) senior reliever and best reliever we have. There is a culture with regard to relievers, and venturing too far from it is probably not the best idea when you consider the human element. Not letting him close would be basically screwing with his career – right?
Anyway, we’ll be fine with Masa setting up. Personally? I can handle a blown lead better than I can handle a blow save, so I’ll take the increased chances of fewer blown saves with Raffy B closing.
The DL stint also allows us and Joe Bo the use of two fantastic words: rehab assignment.
by Thommy on Apr 15, 2008 4:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the fact is that he deserves the closer role.
So he deserves to be used in a (comparatively) inefficient manner?
I don’t think it’d be screwing with his career at all. There may be a “culture” of closing, but it’s moronic. Any steps to break through it are welcome.
by Voltaire on Apr 15, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you seriously think that Rafael Betancourt is sitting there in the dugout thinking “Eff that closer’s role, I really want the glory of being a James-ian relief ace!”
Come on, there definitely exists a culture that idealizes closers, and Raffy does deserve the relative glory if that’s what he wants.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Raffy B wants the Indians to win the most ball games possible, he won’t care about collecting pretty save numbers.
by Voltaire on Apr 15, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are prettier numbers than saves to a reliever, and all of them are preceded by a $.
by Thommy on Apr 15, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly … and getting numerous 3 run saves is how relievers get those $$$.
I’m all for leaving RaffyB in his 7th/8th high leverage situatiuons … but I don’t see Wedge agreeing with the LGT majority on this one.
by talonk on Apr 15, 2008 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m guessing you’re not in a management role at present…just a call.
by Thommy on Apr 15, 2008 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
b/c you’re not clouded by the delusions of top-down power structure systems…
by kwoog on Apr 15, 2008 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if a culture of closing is moronic, it’s still a culture, and those need to be respected – or at least respected for the fact that they exist and the people within that culture are a part of it. Sorry If I’m being obtuse. Anyway, within that culture, he deserves it. If you go around screwing with culture (social dynamics) too much, you run the risk of getting bit as people in it might not understand what you understand. I suppose something like that is in a management bible, if one exists.
I also meant no offense, I wrote it with a smile on my face hoping you’d kind of laugh as well.
by Thommy on Apr 15, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s fine (nothing personal taken). It is important to remember that people are just going to accept a sudden, tearing radical shift without any pain. It’s just frustrating to think how long small steps will take to ultimately end up at the desired goal.
by Voltaire on Apr 15, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol…meant people AREN’T just going to etc.
by Voltaire on Apr 15, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that wasn’t a perfect slip or anything.
by Thommy on Apr 15, 2008 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you can re-define roles and shift cultures in major shifts, but you have to do it very thoughtfully, clearly and comprehensively, and you have to a create a sense that all the key people’s input is embedded into the new status quo.
This is not that different, by the way, from my comments to the effect that Marte has a right to be pissed about losing his job last year. The culture says, you just don’t do that.
by Jay on Apr 15, 2008 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
V, I still think you’re vastly overestimating the difference between his current use, and using him as the Closer. He’s used in a lot of highly leveraged situations, but kept out of plenty of high leverage 9th inning situations.
Looking at BP’s leverage numbers for last year, Borowski actual had a higher total leverage number compared to Betancourt. You can quibble with the numbers a little, but I don’t see how you’re going to support your point that his current usage is so clearly more efficient than that of the traditional brain-dead manager’s closer pattern.
Once you add in the outside factors, like the traditional pecking order or mentality, etc, I still see making RB the right choice here. And all the better if Wedge might start using him in more tie/small deficit/4 out opportunities and less in 3 run save opps. But again, this is the small print. My main point is I’m not sure why you’re so sure of the gap in leverage here.
by dgcambridge on Apr 15, 2008 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Strongly agreed.
I know we had to tell ourselves Iron Rafi was being well leveraged last season just to remain sane, but apparently our self-brainwashing was a little too effective.
by Jay on Apr 15, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quickly – I think a lot of that has to do with Joe B. pitching himself into high-leverage situations. A lot of it.
by Voltaire on Apr 15, 2008 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think the stat works that way. I thought it measures the situation the pitcher comes into. Now how it plays out through the inning of work.
by hans on Apr 15, 2008 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MR – Great comment about Blake closing games. Obviously, though, you’ve forgotten that Marte has a better arm and is in need of a spot on the 25 man roster…
by Thommy on Apr 15, 2008 4:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Byrd makes another 3 inning appearance tonight,
we were likely to see Mastny early, then Julio and Kobayashi. We’ll only see Lewis if the game is close
and Breslow and Perez for short stints if close. That could put Lewis in position to pitch the 9th.
by palcal on Apr 15, 2008 4:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Detroit, I will fear no evil: for LGT art with me; Your stats and Your Raffs they comfort me.
by Julie on Apr 15, 2008 4:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You know, for sacrilege, this was actually kind of sweet.
by fleerdon on Apr 15, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know what you mean. My ex-girlfriend burned down my last apartment, but only because she was sad that I wasn’t with her anymore. It too was sweet. Regardless, her and her sweetness are in prison for another 3 years, at which point I’ll probably move to Indonesia (for whatever reason, that place has been on my mind lately.)
by Thommy on Apr 15, 2008 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that’s the end of that. Borowski won’t be seen again with this team. He has been Wolsey-ed.
The best part (considering this is a bad situation) is that this took less othan 24 hours. This is why I love this organization – it was the right move, the obvious move, and they didn’t hesitate. Calling up Mastny kinda makes me groan, but hey, he can’t do much worse.
And the Browns have 5 primetime games. So if we somehow pull out a win tonight with Byrd on the mound, I’ll call that a great day.
by maledicta on Apr 15, 2008 5:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not my go-to reference for this, but you’re not wrong.
¡Free Chan Perry!
by TheVanillaGorilla on Apr 15, 2008 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, there’s shorter reaches, but I’ve been watching too much of the Tudors.
by maledicta on Apr 15, 2008 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how is that show?
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 15, 2008 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, it’s gone downhill since Sam Neill departed, but that was expected. I’d recommend it.
by maledicta on Apr 15, 2008 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well hopefully Commodore Byrd can lead his overmatched navy to a stunning upset of the knuckleballing Boston Armada, closed out with a powerful broadside from Captain Steel (or is it iron?).
¡Free Chan Perry!
by TheVanillaGorilla on Apr 15, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Suddenly, you’re not reaching at all. It’s all about context.
¡Free Chan Perry!
by TheVanillaGorilla on Apr 15, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not holding out hope for a W from Cobra given his recent struggles. A good night would mean not taxing the bullpen with the Kitties due for a visit.
Not only do the Browns have 5 prime time games (although I’m not sure that the one in week 10 on the NFL Network counts as such) – they appear to be the ‘feature game’ in weeks 1 and 3 that is not scheduled opposite a game involving the Giants or Jets.
Living in the NYC media market entitles you to seeing ONLY those teams when both are playing.
Meaning that I have probably have 6 chances to see a Browns game next season – easily a number double what’s been available in the past 20 years.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 15, 2008 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 Monday Nighters = awesome. NFL’s betting on the Browns.
by maledicta on Apr 15, 2008 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I felt the same way. Mixed apprehension against such a strong schedule, but cheerful that I will be able to watch 6 games this year from my house instead of the bar.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 15, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It sounds from what’s being said on TV as if Betancourt is not available tonight, but will be the closer after that. Save us Raffie!
by peter m on Apr 15, 2008 5:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m telling everyone now.
Tom Mastny will be the closer by playoff time.
I will inform everyone of Mastny’s awesomeness right now:
Nickname: Mr. Nasty
Birthplace: East Bontang, Indonesia
And hes got brass balls.
Legend in the making,
Gutz for MVP!!!
Lee for Cy Young!
by gahnki on Apr 15, 2008 6:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I actually hope this is the case. Don’t forget 2006:
by westbrook on Apr 15, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and the final columns that got cut off:
by westbrook on Apr 15, 2008 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean like these?
The boys better shape up, or Mitch and Murray’ll be sending this guy in from downtown.
“PUT THAT COFFEE POT DOWN.”
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 15, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just remembered the theme of Blake’s (that’s Baldwin’s character’s name) motivational speech was:
A, B, C
Always
Be
Closing…
The coincidences are just plain creepy.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 15, 2008 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m telling you it’s destiny.
Gutz for MVP!!!
Lee for Cy Young!
by gahnki on Apr 15, 2008 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
”...Coffee’s for closers only.”
It's the Arizona talking, really.
by RD74 on Apr 15, 2008 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and how about this – from Wedge’s office last night … (edited for content)
You see pal, that’s who I am, and you’re nothing. Nice guy? I don’t give a s. Good father? F you! Go home and play with your kids. You wanna work here – close! You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you c__sucker? You can’t take this, how can you take the abuse you get [on the mound]? You don’t like it, leave.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 15, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hoynes and Castrovince claiming the Indians knew about this injury on March 14. Whats the point of trying to push through it in April?
http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2008/04/indians_chatter_the_strange_bo.html
http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080415&;content_id=2529934&vkey=news_cle&fext=.jsp&c_id=cle
by 7foot3 on Apr 15, 2008 8:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not only that they knew about it, but they lied about it after the Hunter slam. Quite simply, WTF?
by NickFantana on Apr 15, 2008 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this is true, than this is simply unacceptable. It doesn’t make sense for them to make a decision on Fultz right before the season starts, yet they keep a guy like Borowski in the closers role on a loose leash!!!
by hans on Apr 15, 2008 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wedge/FO doesn’t owe the fans any explanation for not disclosing JoBo’s injury.
It was obviously something they thought he could handle, but it didn’t turn out that way. It is what it is, and it doesn’t really matter now. We move on…
Gutz for MVP!!!
Lee for Cy Young!
by gahnki on Apr 16, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Before we get all caught up in the loss of our national innocence and all, I’m not sure anyone out and out lied. As I recall, JoBo said he “felt” fine. There may be no real pain associated with this injury, so his statement may be accurate. I don’t recall what Wedge said, so I won’t parse it for out and out falsehoods.
In any event, a decision was made to try and have JoBo play through the condition. Once that’s done, it’s probably better that the team didn’t advertise the fact that he was playing hurt. Although I can’t imagine a result worse than the one we got, letting us (and the opposing team) know about the injury would have only given them one more advantage to exploit.
I don’t mind that Wedge knew JoBo was injured and didn’t tell us. I am concerned that he may have known he was injured and still made poor decisions to use him in situations where the potential for success was very low.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 16, 2008 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello Harry,
I totally agree with your last sentence:
“I am concerned that he may have known he was injured and still made poor decisions to use him in situations where the potential for success was very low.”
That’s why I don’t think Wedge is totally blameless for how this season has started. Granted, the players (and especially, Sabathia and Borowski) are mostly to blame, but Wedge himself has made some questionable managerial decisions, and especially with Borowski, and you highlighted a major reason why I think that.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Apr 16, 2008 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Wedge should shoulder some of the blame, as should JoBo, C.C. and some other pitchers. But it doesn’t end there. Where’s the offense?
I’ve mentioned them before. I’m managing my son’s 7 year old little league team this season, and I think we have more offense than the Tribe. (...and we lost our season opener 11-0, but we had the bases loaded in 4 of the 6 innings).
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 17, 2008 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FIRE HARRY!
Either that, or those kids are a bunch of chokers.
by Jay on Apr 17, 2008 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you want my job, you’re welcome to it, Jay.
In the meantime, I still need to master the fine art of a little league line-up. Standard concepts of table setters at the top, followed by your best all around hitter in the 3 hole, power hitter in clean up, etc. don’t seem to apply. What you have to watch out for is not putting the four kids who are guaranteed K’s together in the order – gotta spread ‘em around.
I did feel guilty for wishing that the kid who shuts his eyes, steps backward and waives his bat at the pitch would not make it back from the bathroom in time to bat… but just a little guilty.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 17, 2008 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The trick is to try to just have an eight-kid lineup, see if anyone notices.
by Jay on Apr 17, 2008 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The real problem with that strategy is that I also hold an position on the executive board of the league.
I’m the Player Agent and am charged with the responsibility of seeing that that very sort of thing doesn’t happen.
Then again, if I’m the one enforcing the rule….
Thanks, Jay.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Apr 17, 2008 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s DFAing his bat? Sounds like he knows what’s up.
by afh4 on Apr 17, 2008 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello everyone,
I mentioned this in the Review thread for Tuesday’s game, but in case you missed it, here is another article on Borowski’s injury.
Some points from that article:
1. As mentioned, both the Indians and Borowski knew about this injury about a month ago, yet the Indians kept it “secret.” I too wonder “why?” It’s not like you don’t have other closer options in that bullpen, and even at full strength, Borowski is not a great pitcher. At less than full strength, he’s a sub-par pitcher – he really had no business being out on that mound in any of his outings, and without the two blown saves, we’re 7-7, which looks a lot better than 5-9.
2. Related to #1, Wedge should not be using him in such critical situations, such as facing the Red Sox’s top and middle-parts of the lineup with a 1-run lead, especially after he gives up a leadoff 2B to the 0 for his last 16 Lugo.
3. Why Wedge is even thinking of putting Borowski back in the closer’s role “when he is healthy” is beyond me. Borowski should never go back in the closer’s role UNLESS virtually everyone else in that bullpen falters in that role AND Borowski is lights out for a while in the front-end of the bullpen and in the set-up role. That’s the only way I even think about putting him back in as the closer.
4. As mentioned in another thread, I think Borowski’s excuse for facing the Red Sox was poor on his part, as he hurt the team:
“As he warmed up on Monday night, Borowski knew his velocity wasn’t good. But he wanted to take on the Red Sox anyway.
‘It’s like you’re still a competitor and you’re fighting through it,’ he said. ‘Even if I had gone 1-2-3, I think I would have talked to the trainer.’”
Unbelievable – we lose 2 games we should have won by sending out a pitcher, who’s had a triceps injury for a month, and who is only average or slightly above-average when he’s 100% healthy, to close games for us – why?
I think that’s an interesting question to ask and discuss – just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Apr 16, 2008 12:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the game I mentioned in another thread where I first saw his velocity was down was in Lakeland on March 23. I guess they thought he’d work through it, but they knew his velocity was way down, and I can’t understand how they thought he’d be successful.
Maybe they didn’t want to play musical chairs with the bullpen early in the season, but that’s a poor excuse. I agree, I don’t think there was too much upside here, and the downside was a) losing games, and b) looking bad when it was revealed when he was truly injured.
by TribeJay on Apr 16, 2008 6:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hello TribeJay,
I totally agree with your last paragraph:
“Maybe they didn’t want to play musical chairs with the bullpen early in the season, but that’s a poor excuse. I agree, I don’t think there was too much upside here, and the downside was a) losing games, and b) looking bad when it was revealed when he was truly injured.”
Borowski is an average to slightly above-average pitcher when he’s at full strength; in the condition he’s in right now, he’s arguably the worst pitcher on the staff, as well as the bullpen. In addition, allowing Borowski to go into the game because he “was a competitor and wanted to face the Red Sox anyway” was a very poor excuse; Borowski in his current state certainly does NOT give us the best chance to finish off games and get wins, the main point of playing the team sport of baseball.
He’s out of there now, but it’s unfortunate he cost us two victories in the process before it was revealed he wasn’t 100% – instead of being 5-10 right now, we’d be 7-8, which is almost light-years better at this point (and certainly out of a share of the AL Central cellar.)
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Apr 16, 2008 11:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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