Game Thread: April 16, 2008
by Ryan on Apr 16, 2008 6:00 PM EDT
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PrintDetroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Apr 16, 2008 7:05 PM EDT
Gametime: 7:05 (STO)
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| A. Galarraga | C.C. Sabathia |
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the Big Cat.
of course, the fact that i’ve never heard of Armando Gallaraga virtually guarantees that the Tribe will muster about three hits tonight.
oh come on – at least half of us could have predicted that. big whoop.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 17, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Either no one saw this in the anagram thread or it isn’t as cool as I think it is (I’m betting on the first):
Grady Sizemore = Dream Size Orgy
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
Wedge made a good point a few days ago… He said something about a slump like the one we are in is no big deal mid season when we are 12-15 games over .500. My concern, a slump at the beginning, middle, and end will not get us to the playoffs. So, with the managers logic, we are counting this as our official slump which gives us no room for a slump later in the year.
Those teams that slump all year…are just not good.
My concern, a slump at the beginning, middle, and end will not get us to the playoffs
Yeah, “It’s early” is only going to work for another week or so, if that. I would really like to open up some space between us and the Tigers. The next two nights present a nice opportunity to do just that.
Assuming, of course, that we don’t get Cy Younged by this kid tonight.
--
"This must be what it feels like to be a Tigers fan. Except for the self-hatred that necessarily accompanies rooting for Ivan Rodriguez and Kenny Rogers.." - Fiddlesticks
The Pope’s here. Dellucci will hit two HRs tonight.
by jhon on Apr 16, 2008 7:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Just once, I’d like to see the Tribe pound the hell out of some pitcher none of us have ever heard of instead of making him look like Clemens.
Il faut d'abord durer.
hey! the pope does make a difference.
The Disabled List just called ... it was trying to unload Joe Borowski. I offered a bagel but balked at giving up a ham sandwich.
It’s likely that a majority of players in the lineups are Catholic, but IIRC Dellucci visited w/ nuns during a profound slump last season. It didn’t work out for him then, but I say it pays off here.
The disturbing trend continues for CC – give the lead right back.
And while Cabrera is a good hitter, that was horrible pitch location, right in the middle of the plate, albeit a bit up. Even worse, though, the 4-pitch walk to Ordonez.
What a difference a year makes for Sabathia – I sure hope he finds it, but I’m getting less confident he’ll be as steady as he was last year. I hope he proves me wrong, and soon.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
An out. Huzzah!
--
"This must be what it feels like to be a Tigers fan. Except for the self-hatred that necessarily accompanies rooting for Ivan Rodriguez and Kenny Rogers.." - Fiddlesticks
That sounds like a very unpleasant time machine,
--
"This must be what it feels like to be a Tigers fan. Except for the self-hatred that necessarily accompanies rooting for Ivan Rodriguez and Kenny Rogers.." - Fiddlesticks
I think that idea of trading Sabathia in the offseason might have been a better idea than we gave credit for at the time. Of course, none of us knew Sabathia would get off to such a poor start, and look this bad doing it.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
This is like saying it would’ve been a good idea to move before that piano fell from the tenth stories and struck you on the sidewalk.
Sabathia pitching like this makes no sense. He hasn’t been this bad ever.
Hello Andrew,
For the record, I wasn’t fond of that “trade Sabathia” idea either when it was presented; I’m just mentioning that no one really thought CC would fall off this much and look so erratic.
And, again, referring to your last point, something is “bothering” him – is it physical, mental, a combination of the two. Sabathia isn’t normally out-of-whack for this long, certainly not since late 2005, so something certainly seems up – just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
All I’m saying is there’s not a lot of point in a “We should’ve traded Sabathia” argument. There was no great reasons to do it at the time so it doesn’t help to look back and make his performance now a reason for it. CC’s performance right now is so anomalous it’s akin to an injury-totally unpredictable.
I almost feel as though we should have seen this coming for CC. We know the guy is really mental; he’s been terrible over his career in Oakland, and he pitched pretty terribly in the playoffs last year. Not to say he’s never done well in big games, but he sure has done poorly in a lot of them. With the contract situation, there has got to be a lot on the guy’s mind, and that is obviously a bad thing for him.
Il faut d'abord durer.
CC’s mental “strength” has always seemed to be a weak spot, in the sense that things bother him more than you would expect – a bad call by an umpire, a poor defensive play behind him, etc. That’s why I think the contract is going to be an issue all year, even though he’ll say otherwise.
The only way I’ll believe it is when/if he starts pitching more like he did in 2007. CC really should have just signed the contract the Indians had offered him and been done with it – just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Hello xrickx,
I thought of that – perhaps, though with Sabathia’s history of letting things bother him, I still wouldn’t rule out the contract as being a factor, and it’s likely, we’ll never know for sure, as I highly doubt CC would ever admit it if the contract is the main reason for his struggles.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Meh. The nearly 400 innings in his age 20 and 21 seasons didn’t seem to bother him. There’s a chance we hit his ceiling but I don’t think it’s likely.
Hello Andrew,
Good point – I too think that the IP last year aren’t the main cause of his problems. Whether it’s the failure in the postseason eating at him, the contract situation eating at him, or something else, I don’t know, but I’d think, based on his past history with things “eating at him” and lingering with him, I think those are the likeliest possibilities.
Polanco – who was 0 for his last 9 – now he gets a 2B. First, the 0 for his last 16 Lugo, now the 0 for his last 9 Polanco. Can we keep any opposing hitters in their slumps?
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I wish Peralta would get in a good groove AND STAY IN IT. Why he can’t stay in a good groove for any length of time, I don’t know. The way he chased those garbage pitches from Lester the other night, when he was going pretty well before that, I don’t know why that happens so much with him over the course of his career to this point.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I hope we hit them, and not the Tigers. Come on Indians’ bats – wake up – it’s time to hit!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I think we need to pray to Jobu right about now
by Bernie19Kosar on Apr 16, 2008 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
No offense, but it seems they missed Wedge’s memo about “quality at-bats.”
Great – we’ll making Gallarga look like Roger Clemens – Argh! Cabrera’s slow start is concerning, and unfortunately, Barfield has also cooled off considerably at Buffalo as well, now batting about .263 (he was batting over .400 just a few days ago.)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
No offense, Andrew, but I recall several games where he had multiple hits – it was not one game (one game would not lead to an over .400 BA this late into April.) That’s certainly better than he was doing last year.
In fact, checking Barfield’s stat line – he’s had 2 2-hit games in the last 10 games (back to April 6,) plus was 1-3 in another game, and 1-4 with a 2B in another game, so, no offense, he’s had more than one good game, especially when compared to his offensive struggles last year.
Unfortunately, those offensive struggles are now showing up again in AAA.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Hello jhon,
The only reason I brought up Barfield’s BA is because I suspected someone would bring up the idea of bringing Barfield up, especially if they thought Barfield was still hitting well at AAA – I was just letting others know that Barfield has also cooled off, so Barfield really isn’t a better option than Cabrera at this point, and Cabrera’s defense is still likely better than Barfield’s, so it’s probably better just to stick with Cabrera.
Of course, I wouldn’t put too much stock in 50 ABs, but in case anyone thought Barfield is a viable alternative to Cabrera, he isn’t at this point.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
The most depressing part for me is that they’re more talented than this. We KNOW they are.
What’s the most depressing part for you?
I know you didn’t ask me, but what depresses me is the fact that this team simply DOES NOT CARE.
The Disabled List just called ... it was trying to unload Joe Borowski. I offered a bagel but balked at giving up a ham sandwich.
dammit CC! and did blake really break the wrong way on that ball?
at least baerga is giving me something to smile about this inning
49 through 3. Better get somebody loose in a couple of innings. >:|
--
"This must be what it feels like to be a Tigers fan. Except for the self-hatred that necessarily accompanies rooting for Ivan Rodriguez and Kenny Rogers.." - Fiddlesticks
Ugh! Blake is looking poor at 3B.
So much for Hamilton and Hegan saying – “This could be a critical point for CC if he can get out of this inning.” He didn’t, though admittedly, it may not have been CC’s fault (unless Blake thought CC was going with a pitch in one location and CC missed with that location.)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Indians better get it together very soon, or we’ll be the ones looking up at everyone else in the division.
Blake, Cabrera, Gutierrez, Michaels, Peralta falling into that hole – too many hitters struggling way too much. Come on guys – wake up and hit!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
How many guys do we have in our lineup right now who look like they couldn’t hit their way out of a paper bag? Blake, Gutz, Cabrera, Peralta, Michaels whenever he plays. It’s a little hard to score runs when more than half of your lineup hits like little leaguers.
Peralta does not belong on that list. He deserves a pass as he’s the only hitter outside of Vic and Grady that’s actually gotten hot all year.
Hello Andrew,
That’s why I put the caveat in the post above – I wouldn’t put Peralta quite in that group, but he’s moving more in that direction, whereas Dellucci is moving away from that group.
In other words:
Need improvement:
Cabrera
Blake,
Michaels
Gutierrez
Not as bad, but falling that way:
Peralta
Not as bad, and steadily improving:
Dellucci
Better, but is teetering:
Sizemore
Better, though can still improve:
Hafner
Very hot:
Martinez – WE NEED MORE OF THESE!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Verlander must be watching this and making plans for his post-game celebration tomorrow night after his no-hitter.
geez, feller, rehearse this story much? “it was a norway gray day with the wind whipping off lake michigan” come on.
This Tigers lineup isn’t very intimidating. I don’t see how anyone ever thought it was good for a grand. I guess that’s hindsight.
But…Marcus Thames?
I think the mid-90s Indians’ lineups were better because they were even deeper.
I also thought that the Indians’ and Tigers’ lineups would be close in terms of runs scored at the end of this season, but now I’m wondering – our lineup has to hit sometime, right? :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
To give them some credit, they’d be a lot better if Granderson was in there. Plus for some reason a lot of people were convinced that all those 33+ year olds were going to repeat their career years from last year.
That’s true in regards to Granderson – I’m a bit amazed they put Rodriguez in the leadoff spot, as his OBP is very dependent upon his BA. I’d think Polanco would be a better choice, though he’s hitting worse than Pudge to this point.
I also agree that several of the Tigers were not likely to repeat their career years, due to older-than-average age.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
ESPN just showed Manny hitting 2 homeruns against the Yankees back in 1993. HOLY CRAP, he’s a totally different person.
Il faut d'abord durer.
I love seeing old pictures of him with no facial hair & no crazy dreadlocks & no pants that you could fit two Mannys into.
Red sox announcers were talking about how manny does all that stuff to “deke” people into forgetting what a physical specimen he is underneath. They say he’s one of the most jacked guys in the game.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 16, 2008 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I have a hard time believing he does that to fool people, but I have no trouble with the idea that he’s as big as anyone in the game.
Il faut d'abord durer.
There is a lot of that he does, though. Baggy pants, baggy shirt, bizarro hair, goofy demeanor.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 16, 2008 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it wierd that im happy CC’s velocity is down?
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 16, 2008 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I think I like it better when his velocity is only in the low-90s, with an occasional 95 or 96 on his fastball. His fastball is arguably better at lower velocity because it has better movement.
Darn – where is that CF wind – the ball should have blown out of here. Bad luck again, I guess.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Holy sh*t, the run came from a Dellucci HR? I just got here, that nearly floored me.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
Pitch count after 4:
Ggaallaarraaggggaa: 41
CC: 65
--
Right now, I'll take .500 and run. I'm a cheap happy.
Sabathia is the defending Cy Young veteran, right?
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I just checked my fantasy teams. Between the two, I’m 1/18 so far tonight. So I suck, too.
Il faut d'abord durer.
Now I know something’s bothering Sabathia – he balked! Argh – come on CC – focus!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
10 pitch at bat. that is the average number of pitches the indians have made galarraga throw an INNING
i keep looking at the smile on cc’s face in his gamecast picture and asking myself, why is he so happy
Smiling about all those benji’s he’s going to reel in after this season.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 16, 2008 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you new?
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 16, 2008 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I see that CC is at it again
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 8:23 PM EDT reply actions
I know! I feel the same way….like “shit, am I going to do this to myself AGAIN?”
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 16, 2008 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
He walked Ordonez.
Sharp play by Peralta.
I wish the Indians’ defense would be sharper – perhaps it’s CC’s lack of throwing strikes that’s putting them into a lull. That wasn’t a problem last year.
Hamilton: This is not the same CC Sabathia as it was a year ago – exactly what I’ve been saying.
Last year, CC would have handled both Sheffield and Ordonez.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
fuck CC
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 8:27 PM EDT reply actions
I’m likely leaving too – I have work to do as well!
Sabathia – you SUCK – 9 ERs in his last two starts. 2007 was an absolute fluke!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
When I say 2007 was an absolute fluke, I was referring to Sabathia, not specifically the Indians, though I do question whether they can turn it around enough to make the postseason.
I hope Adam Miller stays healthy and other reinforcements can help – Sabathia may be like this all season. 32 H/18 IP/5 HR (something like that) – 13.50! = putrid!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Sabathia – you are definitely disappointing us all.
The D’Backs are 11-4 – they’re certainly not wasting any time.
Sabathia – you SUCK! Let him leave or trade him!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
oh my fucking god
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 8:28 PM EDT reply actions
Why are we leaving him in here?
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
adios, CC… hopefully we can get a nice trade package.
The Disabled List just called ... it was trying to unload Joe Borowski. I offered a bagel but balked at giving up a ham sandwich.
Wow. I just dont get why we leave him in there to get rocked by Renteria?
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
Wedge should have removed him sooner, though the main fault, by far, rests with Sabathia.
What a difference a year makes – I wish we would have won it last year, because this year is not looking very good right now. I’m hopeful it will turn around, but a repeat of 2006 isn’t out of the question either – sure hope I’m wrong on that.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I said that a repeat of 2006 is not out of the question – I didn’t say it’s a certainty, but if Sabathia doesn’t rebound, it will be MUCH harder for us to achieve our 2007 success, unless Miller or someone else from Buffalo is great for us!
Sorry to sound negative, but it’s hard to stay positive when your so-called ace gets rocked for the fourth time in four outings – I’ll believe he’s back when I see several strong starts in a row. Until then, sorry – I have little faith in him right now.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
We have achieved maximum suckitude. We can only get better from here.
by Joe Charboneau on Apr 16, 2008 8:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Glutton for punishment for watching THIS team? Am I the only person in this room who remembers the 70s and 80s?
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Apr 16, 2008 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You were what, 10 years old when they started to get good. You don’t have any idea what it was like back in the day.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Apr 16, 2008 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
z
time for some Madden.
The Disabled List just called ... it was trying to unload Joe Borowski. I offered a bagel but balked at giving up a ham sandwich.
My gamecast was way behind, so I thought people were pissed about the Cabrera RBI single. Until someone said Grand slam. And now im caught up. ERIC WEDGE YOU AREN’T TOO BRIGHT ARE YOU? IF YOU WERE COMPETENT, MAYBE CC WOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN OUT BEFORE THE CABRERA SINGLE OR AT LEAST BEFORE THE GRAND SLAM. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A 2 RUN OR A 4 RUN GAME, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN WINNABLE, AND CC MIGHT HAVE REGAINED A SHRED OF CONFIDENCE. FUCK YOU.
Maybe this is divine intervention to get me to study.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 8:36 PM EDT reply actions
damn everybody’s jumping ship
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 8:36 PM EDT reply actions
Im still here.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve complained about Wedge’s “slowness” in staying too long with Sabathia and Byrd, keeping Borowski out there, etc. His managing so far in this young season has been debatable, at least.
Of course, his players are faltering big time as well – very unfortunate!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I’ve forgiven a lot of previous blunders, but i can’t forgive basic no-brainer things. CC has shown no ability to pitch out of trouble this season. Why think he wouldn’t have a second consecutive 9 run start.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
ERA: ∞
The Disabled List just called ... it was trying to unload Joe Borowski. I offered a bagel but balked at giving up a ham sandwich.
we tempted fate with all that tigers hating
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 8:39 PM EDT reply actions
I was talking way too big a game after that Casey Blake winner to start the season. Too bad Casey Blake’s hitting was the fluke in that game, not CC imploding.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Umm.
I don’t see how anyone is pissed about Wedge not yanking him. Wedge knew what bullets he had left to spend and, well, they aren’t much better than horrible CC.
the result couldn’t have been any worse than keeping in Crooked Cap
by JulioBernazard on Apr 16, 2008 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but somebody has to pitch the rest of this game. Mastny’s not looking too sharp, so if we’re lucky maybe we can get through the 5th and 6th with him. Then what? Masa can maybe go three? We hope?
We’ve got no Borowski, no Perez, no Lewis, and I’m unclear on the status of Julio. Now, there’s a chance we might see Raffy B tonight.
I mean, FUCK. What is Wedge supposed to do?
Leaving CC in there was not a good option, not with the way he’s pitching. You CAN’T get much worse – he’s given 9 ER in his last 8-9 IP – the bullpen relievers wouldn’t be much worse, if at all – not even Julio, Mastny, Masa, Breslow, etc.
And, no offense, Borowski – please, he’s been as putrid – he’s right there with CC. He might be the one guy I wouldn’t have replaced CC with, but anyone else in the bullpen – I’d go for it!
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I still think it’s a blunder. Mastny, Masa maybe? I mean, CC has been as bad as possible. Wedge has too much trust – he didn’t even consider walking Manny the other night in the 9th.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand your point, but with CC pitching like he’s capable of, 1-2 runs might have been enough.
Besides, as Victor’s poor play behind the plate shows, it’s likely the life of the Indians has been taken out of them because of Sabathia’s very poor outing, so again, he’s the main culprit, NOT the offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
That’s ridiculous. Everyone’s allowed to be accountable. We don’t have to choose a “main culprit.”
1 hit against Armando Gallaraga is just as shitty as CC tonight.
Instead of “main culprit,” try “main reason” – if CC pitches like CC is capable, 1-2 runs might be enough.
Granted, I’d like the offense to be better, and it should be better, but conversely, you can’t expect us to score 5-7 runs just because it’s a rookie pitcher either.
The main point is, CC didn’t keep us in the game. With the way the offense is going right now, our chances of coming back are virtually nil. Even if the offense was going like it should, it still would be a pretty tall mountain to climb because CC didn’t pitch well.
I agree that everyone on the team should be held accountable, but it all started with CC’s poor performance tonight, his 4th in 4 starts – therefore, instead of “main culprit,” try “it all started with” CC, and it did.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
No offense, Andrew, but I wouldn’t be as sure about that – CC has been much worse than last year.
If it was the 2007 CC, I’d agree with you, but right now, CC could be the worst pitcher on the staff, and certainly, bottom 3. Julio has had a few good outings, something CC hasn’t had. So have Breslow and Kobayashi.
Plus, the rest of the starting staff have had at least one good start, something CC hasn’t had – therefore, I think removing CC was the RIGHT call.
Martinez – it wasn’t a force out!
We are NOT focused – this is so discouraging! Sabathia’s horrendous outing again doesn’t help! I think it took a tool on the Indians’ morale and focus, again!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Another thing I blame on Wedge. I mean, I know Leyland is not better tactically than Wedge, but at least he kicks ass some times and puts people in their place, and gets them to focus. Wedge hasn’t kicked any asses since Milton Bradley.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah that Leyland shit has worked with dozens of great teams right? The Tigers shit the bed last year with Leyland yelling at them.
You can hate Wedge but there’s no reason to act like he’s behind all this failure. Managers just don’t matter that much.
Hello Andrew,
I don’t think Wedge is the main culprit, but some of his decisions have not helped – he’s not blameless. Putting Borowski in two outings when he knew he was injured, and especially the other night when we had a 1-run lead against Boston, I think can be attributed to Wedge – putting in Betancourt/Perez/Lewis would have been a better option in all likelihood, since those three pitchers have better stuff than a healthy Borowski, let alone a far less than 100% Borowski.
So, Wedge isn’t the main culprit, but he’s certainly not blameless either.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Well, it worked two years ago when he got them in gear after we put up a bunch on them, and they didn’t look bad. Also, they didn’t shit the bed last year, they just weren’t as good as us (having a crap bullpen didn’t help). And they’ve played better since the most recent tonguelashing.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
And Wedge’s “steady hand” worked great last year.
Do you think, maybe, just maybe, that all of this discussion of “managing passive” or “managing aggressive” is probably bullshit, and that the players, who get paid handsomely to play well, have to play well primarily all by themselves?
There are dozens of diatribes led by managers every year that fail. There are also some that work. There’s no rhyme or reason here and there’s certainly not evidence to act like Leyland has fixed everything while wedge has failed to fix anything.
Man, you have to leave the Cy Young winner out there in the 5th if he’s not at a hundred pitches and your bullpen’s hurting. I don’t care what ya’ll say it’s insanity to fault Wedge for staying with CC, no matter how terrible he is.
“Cy Young winner” at this point is meaningless. He hasn’t pitched well since the end of the regular season last year.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
WHO’S GOING TO COME IN AND FIX EVERYTHING?
None of the players, except for Grady and Vic, are any fucking good right now. What is Wedge supposed to do?
This is everyone on the team’s fault. It’s not poor managing.
Andrew, have I told you lately how much I like you?
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
garko?
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
If guys are trying hard and sucking, then there isn’t much a manager can do. But these guys seem to be losing their focus, which is something Wedge could correct.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Is that possible? Yeah, but it’s no more possible than the opposite. We don’t know how hard their trying or how much they care, as much as we like to pretend we do.
What’s the opposite? Wedge freaking out and they still aren’t focused? Maybe give it a shot.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
No, the opposite is that they’re trying hard and sucking. Acting like we know the status of players’ mental efforts isn’t very productive, on top of it being unfair to the players.
I agree. I just said if they aren’t trying hard. When people like Leyland scream and yell all the time it loses its shock value. BUT, if it hasn’t been done (and I don’t know what goes on in the locker room and in training), maybe Wedge could try it out.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Andrew, realize I’m saying the SAME THING – no, I don’t think Wedge is totally responsible, but he’s not totally blameless either. I think there’s a few decisions he could have made better choices on (staying too long with Sabathia and Byrd in their earlier starts and in CC’s start tonight, going with Borowski when he knew he was injured,) but I agree with you, most of the team is underperforming, and THEY, will have to make the turnaround for us to perform like we expected to.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
No offense Andrew, but the point is whether you have a chance to win this ballgame or not. The way CC was pitching, is it that big of a surprise he’d give up a grand slam to Renteria? Not really.
And that grand slam has essentially ended any realistic chance of the Indians winning this ballgame. As Hamilton just mentioned, you “don’t have the same edge” with a 9-run lead, as you would it the lead is only 2, 3, or even 5.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
guys you’re arguing over nothing, just stop it, seriously.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I know – the horse has left the barn.
The main point: The whole team, Wedge included, is responsible, and ALL of them will need to work harder to turn this thing around.
Thank goodness we have more games to play to turn this around – let’s hope we can!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
You think we’ve got a great chance to win with Mastny coming in and giving up back to back hits against the wall? To the weak part of the lineup?
CC getting out of that and sneaking through another inning was as likely, if not more likely, than Tom Mastny being effective.
The way CC is pitching this year, I don’t think so. The 2007 CC – I agree with you. But, essentially, CC is fooling no one and overpowering no one.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
The sample size in 2008 for Mastny is MUCH less than Sabathia – therefore, you go with the unknown, and essentially, “hope” for better results, since CC has proven again he’s not the same so far in 2008.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
For the record I agree with you on this. Can’t blame Wedge for leaving the starters in too long when our offence blows and our pen sucks too.
by supermarioelia on Apr 16, 2008 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
No offense, Andrew, but we didn’t know Mastny would suck tonight (yes, you could guess it from his past season statistics,) but Sabathia has sucked this whole season and we were still in the ballgame at this point, and you are trying to keep the game close enough so that you can still win THIS ballgame.
Your point has some merit, but my point about removing Sabathia also has some merit – would I have replaced him with Mastny? No, but I would have replaced Sabathia before Renteria hit that GS, and I’m not the only one in this thread who thought that. You’re trying to win this ballgame, and it’s not like we had no one in the bullpen out there.
This is the disadvantage though of not having a true long man out in the bullpen – it worked last year because our starters pitched so well. That’s not the case this year, certainly not with CC.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I assume Victor and Grady are just zombies at this point. They have to look across the diamond at Blake and CC.
They look in the dugout and see Wedge.
by JulioBernazard on Apr 16, 2008 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
guys we’re falling apart in here, too.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 8:47 PM EDT reply actions
Just wait. The revolution will come.
(Note: this is less funny when I can’t make it <font color=communist>.)
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
And when the revolution comes, the folks at Sirius Cybernetics Corporation will be first up against the wall.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Apr 16, 2008 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I find that in the heat of irrationality we really like to posit strawman arguments and then demolish players/manager/FO for things that we imagine they’re guilty of. We should probably stick to being mad about things we know.
For example, CC has been awful this year and it makes me mad. That is all.
+1
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
So, I guess we’ll end up feeling good about not signing CC if this continues, though I still think that a lot of it is just his inherent flakiness. Big Dude has Big Emotions.
I know, I know, I’m not here right now. Just had to drop you guys a reminder.
by fleerdon on Apr 16, 2008 8:58 PM EDT reply actions
This must really the worst Indians game I’ve ever seen. I’m not just saying that. This very well could be the worst game they’ve ever played—at least in my lifetime.
Remember the playoff game against Boston when they gave up like 23?
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Alright, i’ll give you that. I feel like this team has gotten the wind knocked out of it.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
No chargeable errors – Victor’s meltdown at the plate that scored run #10 is an error, but not an official one.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Apr 16, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
tmj?
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
If this doesn’t bring Chuck back, nothing will.
Funny story, when we had our lecture on this one of the precipitating factors was “social unrest”. I think an Indians slump on LGY would classify as that
by supermarioelia on Apr 16, 2008 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
fuck it make mastny throw 75 pitches if he has to
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:04 PM EDT reply actions
i really don’t care about his arm
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
ohhhhhhh
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
you think marte might see some action in this debacle?
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:05 PM EDT reply actions
What would be worse, having CC have a good year, not trading him, and not making the playoffs, thereby getting no value, or, CC imploding and resigning him but getting a shell of the 2007 man?
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 9:06 PM EDT reply actions
with each loss, and each uninspired at bat and bullpen homerun allowed that comes with it, i get madder and madder at joel skinner for giving kenny lofton that stop sign.
shoot me now
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
With each loss my hatred for Jose Mesa grows too.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
breslow = dominance
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:08 PM EDT reply actions
he sounds despondent
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
nice 4 pitch walk
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:10 PM EDT reply actions
at least this douchebag pudge is getting the outs
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:12 PM EDT reply actions
Jason Michaels is looking around the dugout saying, “Hey, it wasn’t me”.
by jhon on Apr 16, 2008 9:12 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
one fucking pitch. jesus.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:15 PM EDT reply actions
MARTE!!
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:15 PM EDT reply actions
come on andy
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:16 PM EDT reply actions
DAMN right at raburn
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:17 PM EDT reply actions
hammy: “that ball was scorched”
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:17 PM EDT reply actions
GOOD AT BAT ANDY!!!!!!
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:17 PM EDT reply actions
i know
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
hammy: “if it weren’t for dellucci’s first inning home run galaragga would have a perfect game through 6”
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:20 PM EDT reply actions
How about the Delluchador being one of our better offensive producers this year?
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
lgft
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Why is Michaels in for sizemore?
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 9:22 PM EDT reply actions
Im not bothered, I just can’t tell from gamecast.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Wedge pressed for a fast start a few years ago and the team fizzled.
Now he starts the season with the laid back approach and the results are worse.
Remember when we laughed at Leyland for ripping his team. It seems to have helped this year.
That shit doesn’t help. It’s just correlative. If you yell all the time, and your team is good sometimes, sometimes it can be construed that your yelling has made the team good.
leyland = rainmaker ala clay davis
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe Dr. Phil could come bail out our season.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you realize that if Michaels went 4 for 4 in his next game he would still be only batting .194????
Still an Ohio boy through and through!
by TribeLoverInNewYork on Apr 16, 2008 9:26 PM EDT reply actions
just got back from class. andrew, thanks for keepin some sanity with the sabathia + wedge talk.
john – i cant right now think of a more unwatchable game. you might be right.
my helmet has, like, no pine tar on it.
i feel like hafner just doesn’t quite have the pop he used to? no idea but i feel like a lot of these deep flies he’s been hitting woulda been out two years ago
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:31 PM EDT reply actions
I blame the weather. It keeps me sane.
by supermarioelia on Apr 16, 2008 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Are we standing on home plate????
Still an Ohio boy through and through!
by TribeLoverInNewYork on Apr 16, 2008 9:33 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah. I can’t even see the link, it’s just a box.
by supermarioelia on Apr 16, 2008 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
i just want marte to get 2 more at bats
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:34 PM EDT reply actions
It has gone beyond depression now Mario.
Still an Ohio boy through and through!
by TribeLoverInNewYork on Apr 16, 2008 9:34 PM EDT reply actions
i’m in my bedroom, door closed, under the covers, electric blanket on, clutching a 40 of PBR and shaking my head. it’s bad
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s half of Iowa City on any non-weekend night.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
nah iowa city drinks shit beer, way worse than PBR, that keystone shit and everything. ugh. undrinkable.
but yeah you’re pretty much right.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I missed the game Saturday night, went to a class party, and the first beer offered to me was a PBR. First one I’ve had in my life.
by supermarioelia on Apr 16, 2008 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
how was it
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m one of those guys to whom all beer tastes the same. And I love Bud Light, so take that for what it’s worth.
by supermarioelia on Apr 16, 2008 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Bud Lite is high class shit for IC.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 16, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
sad but true
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Looks like we have a good team this year.
My wife commented to me that C.C.’s wife probably wishes he would have taken the $17.5 mil (or whatever he was offered) in the off season.
What an absolute debacle this season is starting out to be.
by SpringTrainingFun on Apr 16, 2008 9:36 PM EDT reply actions
just foul
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:37 PM EDT reply actions
Damn it the fuck all. This is what the Tribe gets for leaving Florida. It’s the Winter Haven curse….
by SpringTrainingFun on Apr 16, 2008 9:37 PM EDT reply actions
id be so embarassed to have my at-bat music be rap, but how sweet would that be?
my helmet has, like, no pine tar on it.
hahahaha
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t even know …
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
i caught the tail end of it
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I was here, I was just not posting so as to avoid having any of my obscenities grace the front page again.
I was disappointed that only one of my comments made that summary.
by supermarioelia on Apr 16, 2008 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
i think i got two in
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, it’s going to get worse (and busier). This is driving me to drink (more than usual).
by SpringTrainingFun on Apr 16, 2008 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey…two grand slams and we are right back in this thing!!!!
Still an Ohio boy through and through!
by TribeLoverInNewYork on Apr 16, 2008 9:40 PM EDT reply actions
5-10 after 15 games – unfuckingbelievable. From this team, this is what we get.
by SpringTrainingFun on Apr 16, 2008 9:41 PM EDT reply actions
hey we scored again
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:42 PM EDT reply actions
DON’T SWING
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:43 PM EDT reply actions
I was one for trading C.C. PRIOR to the start of this season, but not because I thought he would suck the sweat of dead donkey balls.
by SpringTrainingFun on Apr 16, 2008 9:43 PM EDT reply actions
fuck droobs he’s going to cost me a marte at bat
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 16, 2008 9:44 PM EDT reply actions
Oh man this is so goddamn depressing. The economy sucks and now I’ve gotta deal with this shit.
by SpringTrainingFun on Apr 16, 2008 9:45 PM EDT reply actions
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