Game Thread: April 17, 2008 - 8th Inning
by Jay on Apr 17, 2008 10:07 PM EDT
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PrintDetroit Tigers at Cleveland Indians, Jun 1, 2007 7:05 PM EDT
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he only had one poor start, and it was only poor because it was inefficient.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 17, 2008 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
horribly, grotesquely walkariffiicly inefficient.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 17, 2008 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I more or less realized that. It’s just that he’s sort of snuck by, like he did tonight, and I’m not sure the results truly match the performance. Well, obviously I guess. Nobody’s performance matches a 1.96.
I’m developing a man-crush on fausto.
Can we call him the crooked grill, to go with crooked cap?
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 17, 2008 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I haven’t been monitoring LGT tonight, so apologies for repeating what others have said. I wanted to say two things in particular. First, Wedge has had a far better night tonight than on Wednesday. He put Carroll in the line up, which was a great idea. And, he pulled pitchers at the right moments (for a change)—got Carmona out when he was still in great shape and recognized that Lewis wasn’t going to be able to pitch the 8th effectively.
Second, Carroll has earned more ab’s. He seems like one of those sparkplug types, and plays good defense. I say he should play again tomorrow, maybe at 2nd to give Peralta a much deserved chance to consider his approach at the plate.
Oh, and Carmona is the ace.
So managers have no effect? I don’t agree. They get paid to decide who plays and who pitches when. Wedge did a nice job tonight and a poor job last night. If you think it’s just about the players, then I guess we should just save money on managers’ salaries (but I don’t think the pitchers will pull themselves at the right moment!!).
No, but they should be able to see when a pitcher has nothing (CC last night, Jensen Lewis tonight). That’s my point about the difference between the two games.
But you said he had a good night by putting Carroll in the lineup. If Carroll gets a hit, the manager did a good job, but if he doesn’t the manager is an idiot?
No. Putting Carroll in made sense. Asdrubal has been awful for a long stretch and Caroll played well in Anaheim and showed some energy last night. So, I’m saying Wedge read the situation and made a good call. It’s even better that Carroll has played well tonight, but the point is that Wedge didn’t just run the same line up out there again and tried something to create a spark (batting the guy 2nd too).
I don’t understand the argument. Is it just fate, or do managers make decisions (and can we praise or criticize them for the decisions they make?)
All managers essentially act the same.
Managers have far less control over player performance than a myriad of other factors.
Unless your manager is acting like an insane person, he probably has no more influence on the game than any other manager would, so he has no impact relative to other managers.
It’s not fate. It’s players. As long as a decision is defensible, I don’t really care. Quibbling over lineup changes for one day, etc, like it’s the manager “playing his cards right” is for the Steve Phillips of the world.
I think what some people are getting at is, maybe your sig should say something like “king of hindsight”.
+1
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 17, 2008 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. This is knee jerkiness to the max.
by supermarioelia on Apr 17, 2008 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand the venom, y’all. All I said was that Wedge made some good moves last night with which I agreed, and didn’t the night before. I was afraid he’d leave Lewis in, and he didn’t. Good move. I thought it was time to give Cabrera a rest, and he did. I thought it was time to try someone else in the 2-hole (and he did). Obviously, it’s better that the moves worked. But, I’d have been in support of these moves even if Carroll took the collar and Kobayashi walked the bases loaded. I also think it was wrong to leave CC in the game so long the night before, and I explained why in a discussion of this with Jay.
I guess you’d all be okay with Wedge letting Borowski tough it out after the Boston game and continue to attempt to close games? That wouldnt be “Insane” inasmuch as many managers do exactly that kind of thing. But, most Indians fans would be howling if that happened. So, when Wedge makes a decision that works, maybe he deserves a little praise?
It’s tough to gain credibility on manager critiques when you praise things during big wins and criticize things during big losses. When that’s all you’re doing, there’s no distinction between you and a nation full of reflexive, uncritical manager-haters.
Let’s see you praise some things Wedge is doing during a loss. Let’s see you praise some things that don’t work out - like playing Carroll when he turns out to have a bad night - and criticize some tings that work out well even though you think they were a bad idea. A manager doesn’t have the luxury of knowing that Carroll is going to have a good night, and lots of smart moves don’t work out.
In blackjack, you can decline to split aces and still end up with 21, but it’s still an idiotic move. But with your style of critique, I imagine we’d be seeing a comment like, you know, it was a good idea to keep those eights together for that hand, seems like we haven’t seen a lot of face cards lately anyway.
As long as we’re criticizing “styles of critique”, may I suggest you chill? I haven’t attacked anyone personally or called anyone names. Apparently I said some things you disagree with, which is fine. Presumably we can have a discussion without attacking one another?
I can assure you I’m not a manager-hater. I have my reservations about Wedge, but he’s obviously an effective manager in many ways. And, I don’t quite see why someone would object to my saying (during the bad game) that he should bench Cabrera, then praising him for doing just that, for example. That’s just being consistent, whether you agree with me or not.
If you want a criticism of something Wedge did during a good game, see my suggestion that he needs to rest Peralta (with which you apparently disagree?). And, while I disagree with having sent Francisco to AAA in favor of playing Dellucci, I have acknowledged, more than once at this point, that he’s playing pretty well and contributing.
You’re obviously free to agree or disagree with what I or anyone else says, but let’s keep in mind that we’re all Indians fans and we’re on the same side here.
peter, you’re still pretty new here. When people make a steady stream of what are considered to be BS arguments, they’re going to get called out. You asked for someone to spell it out for you, so I did, and then you got defensive and accused me of not being chill. Don’t worry yourself, I’m very chill, this is just a walk in the park.
Nobody likes being criticized, that’s understandable, but we all face moments here where we are forced to confront our own biases and orthodoxies. You’ll get used to it more, and walk face-first smack into it less, as time goes on. If you’re honest with yourself, you might realize that you’d be bristling less if you didn’t know that there’s at least a grain of truth in the criticism.
If Carroll is at 2B, does Peralta reflect on his approach with him in the field? or does Droobs factor in here?
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 17, 2008 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
It is incredible the way that a manager looks better during an 11-1 victory than he does during a 13-2 defeat. Clearly, you have stumbled onto an important insight here.
Jhonny had a rough couple of games but was probably the best hitter in the majors last week—he slugged 950 or something like that. So let’s not jhump to conclusions or rhush to hysterics on the guy.
He also is trying to pull everything again and is scuffling at the moment. I don’t think it would hurt to give him a day off (maybe not in the first Twins game, since a lefty is pitching) to regroup. That’s not hysterics. I like Peralta as a hitter and think he’s a good player. But, he gets away from his strengths at times—I think he’s in one of those streaks now.
I checked out the “rough couple of games” argument, out of curiosity. Jhonny P’s stats for the last 7 games: 4/25, 4BB, 8K, 0 RBI, OBP .300, SLG .280.
Your argument would be stronger if you didn’t even mention RBI.
Any way you slice it, it’s still just a handful of games, so the variance is enormous and the numbers just don’t say much.
Last six games: .091/.231/.091
Last ten games: .289/.372/.579
I give up, is he amazing or terrible? The last ten games - 951 OPS - includes the last six games.
I picked through the logs, it does look like he struggled a little for those six games, but he was still getting some balls out of the infield, and it isn’t anything that strange for just six games. There might be a reason for it, but there doesn’t have to be.
Forgot to mention, his six-game BABIP is .143. He had a small rash of strikeouts, but it still looks more like can’t -buy-a-hit than can’t-hit.
I still say resting him and playing Carroll makes sense. They used to do this with Thome when he got pull-happy, and it often worked. And, resting regulars once in a while is a good thing anyway. The SSS argument is true enough, but applies equally to the week when he was going well. I’m not at all arguing that he should be replaced or anything—just that he has hit poorly during the homestand and that a day off might do him (and the team) some good.
this guy bautista looks like he could be rafy perez’s right handed brother.
i bet CC still has at least 15 lbs on the 2 of them combined
CC is built for comfort.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 17, 2008 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions
/rimshot.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 17, 2008 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not entirely clear on the Byzantine rules, but I think this is a non-save situation. Which, of course, means that your closer (or closer-designate) will suck.
by Fiddlesticks on Apr 17, 2008 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Borowski could have closed this one out, but the tying run would have come to the plate.
by elsandito on Apr 17, 2008 10:26 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
what should i hate more: that i am scoreboard watching on 4/17, or that it is the white sox whose scores i care about?
Wow, are you folks hearing this about Borowski’s comments? Apparently he was going to yank himself from the lineup after Boston game, even if he sat them down in order.
So I ask you, what’s more improbable:
a) Borowski was going to bow out, or
b) Borowski was going to end an inning 1-2-3.
?
Was he going to yank himself before/after Miller uncorks his nasty?
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 17, 2008 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’ve been trying to think of some response to this that won’t get me banned; but now I can stop, as you, sir, have knocked it out of the park.
by Fiddlesticks on Apr 17, 2008 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I really feel good seeing Raffy out there in the 9th. I know its not a save situation, but after seeing Papelbon here it makes me happy knowing we have a guy who is going to slam the door. (and is capable of going more than 3 outs)
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
That last strike by Raffy actually froze my computer. Freezing WINDS OF CHANGE BABAYYYY
by supermarioelia on Apr 17, 2008 10:30 PM EDT reply actions
It’s still April. I’m sticking with winds for now. Blow the stench right out of the Prog.
by supermarioelia on Apr 17, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
hah!
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 17, 2008 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s as if my computer knew something monumental was happening, and paused to reflect. Raffy is now our closer. CHAMPIONSHIP.
by supermarioelia on Apr 17, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Tribe win, worlds great again, heads off for a weekend away a happy man.
One day I'll get over to watch the Tribe play
by new zealand tribe fan on Apr 17, 2008 10:33 PM EDT reply actions
Oh, wow—if I made a reference there to a Tom Selleck movie, please believe me that it was entirely coincidental. I have some street cred in the cinephile community at stake.
by Fiddlesticks on Apr 17, 2008 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
According to my utterly awesome Jamootz desktop background, both this Saturday (at Twins) and next Saturday (vs. NY Skankees) are Fox network games. Whether they’ll actually show up in a living room near you is another question.
by Fiddlesticks on Apr 17, 2008 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Carmona, minus his unusual walk game, has been very good.
Lee has been our best pitcher so far.
Westbrook has been better than usual.
Let’s see Lee and Westbrook perform again against the Twins now, and then maybe Byrd/CC can get their stuff together against the Twins/Royals.
Dawgs By Nature - Find out why Pittsburgh still sucks.
You could actually make the argument just as easily that Carmona or Westbrook has been the best; both those guys throttled high octane offenses.
Either way, I’m pretty pleased with 3/5 of our rotation.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 18, 2008 6:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think it really makes a lot of difference defensively. Shoppach caught Byrd effectively all last year. Martinez is the better hitter, but he also needs rest (as do all catchers). The one advantage of having Shoppach catch Byrd is that if meant Martinez didn’t catch 20% of the games (and got rested). But, it also created inflexibility, so I can see why the team might want to get away from the “personal catcher” thing.
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