Who's the Next Guy Thrown Overboard?
In the old days, to right the ship and to appease the gods in the middle of the storm, it was customary to throw one of the sailors overboard.
How long do we wait until we hit the panic button? Is it time yet to throw somebody overboard to shock the rest of the team? It can be argued that JoeBo was already tossed (though I think you could also make the argument that he jumped).
Some candidates:
- Jason Michaels - Right now, Jason Michaels, according to B-Ref, has an OPS+ of 0
- Casey Blake - Not only is he blocking Andy Marte, he has an OPS+ of 51.
- Asdrubal Cabrera - He has options, he's looked generally lost at the plate, with a BA below the Mendoza line and an OPS+ of 42. Jamey Carroll could play second.
- Eric Wedge - Yeah, I know he took us close enough to the promised land last year that, like Moses, we could look across the Jordan and see it but not cross over. How many years do we have to get off to a crappy start under this guy?
- Derek Shelton - The team is last in the AL in BA, total bases and slugging percentage. Is it time to start the Fire Derek Shelton campaign?
- Stay the course - It's too early for drastic action. Keep giving the veterans plenty of rope with which to continue to hang themselves.
- CC Sabathia - Is it too early to start thinking about dealing CC? Could we even find a taker as terribly as he's pitched?
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Don’t forget to say who you voted for and why. I’ve not voted. I’m just curious about community sentiment.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on
Apr 21, 2008 10:49 AM EDT
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Honestly, I think all of those above guys will pull back to respectability. But, if I had to choose it would be Michaels, because his contract is easy to eat and he is easily replaceable (Blake, Choo or Francisco).
by Toxicadam on
Apr 21, 2008 10:52 AM EDT
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I agree. Heck he can be easily replaceable by a monkey swinging an oversized banana at the plate. I bet you that monkey can put up an OPS+ of 0 and and we’d only have to pay him in oversized bananas.
Marte needs to start over Blake. Its almost criminal that Wedge is so easy to sit guys like AsCab and Gutz (both young guys) while stiffs like Blake and Michaels get to play through their slumps (both vets….hmmm). Sitting AsCab makes sense because there is an alternative there, and the same goes for Blake. Wedge wedge wedge, what are we going to do with you.
by hans on
Apr 21, 2008 10:58 AM EDT
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I’m the lone Ass-Cab voter. I’m assuming it’s correct that he has options and he can work things out in Buffalo, while we wouldn’t be losing anything with Caroll in there. I’d guess that would create a problem with the utility infielder role, unless Barfield is brought up.
I really didn’t think it through that well… one of the many reasons I’m not Assistant TO the General Manager.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
by rolub on
Apr 21, 2008 10:59 AM EDT
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I voted for Michaels, who is not helping in any way. Cabrera has actually had his moments and is really a good fielder. Carroll can play the outfield, so they could try calling up Barfield (who has actually hit a bit better than Francisco) to give them infield depth.
Since Choo is scheduled to come off the DL in May some time, I’m afraid they’ll wait on Michaels so that they still have roster spot to play with. I don’t know if they have additional options on Francisco or Barfield should they call one of them up at this point. I know Choo can’t be optioned.
by peter m on
Apr 21, 2008 11:04 AM EDT
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Even if ‘drub gets sent down (certainly a possibility – although Barfield’s mediocre play isn’t increasing the likelihood of this happening) I don’t see it as being thrown overboard. I voted for J-Mike because of the guys on the list, he seems the right combination of easy to get rid of/easy to replace. But hasn’t JoBo already been walked out to the end of the plank? If he doesn’t show increased velocity during some rehab outings, isn’t he already gone?
by APV on
Apr 21, 2008 12:55 PM EDT
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It remains to be seen whether JoeBo jumped or was pushed. Regardless, given his decreased velocity and admitted arm issues, he never should have been allowed to leave port with the ship.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on
Apr 21, 2008 1:51 PM EDT
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Who should, or who will? Who should? Probably Jason Michaels. Who will? I honestly think Andy Marte will be the first to go.
by Fundamentals on
Apr 21, 2008 11:13 AM EDT
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Can’t see them abandoning Marte just yet (he hasn’t really had a shot and they have a lot to lose by giving him up—in PR terms, if nothing else). And, they really have no depth at 3B if they do let him go.
by peter m on
Apr 21, 2008 11:18 AM EDT
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I chose Drube (Droooob), not because I think they should, but because it would be an infuriatingly apt gesture for Wedge-management.
Michaels should be the one out, but there’s no replacement unless Blake plays LF against LHP & they play Marte at third, which hardly seems likely, even if advisable.
by DocNo on
Apr 21, 2008 11:57 AM EDT
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Aaron Fultz will be the first to go.
by supermarioelia on
Apr 21, 2008 11:59 AM EDT
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mario wins
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on
Apr 21, 2008 12:05 PM EDT
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Aaron Fultz was thrown off the dock before the ship even left port.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on
Apr 21, 2008 12:15 PM EDT
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Assuming we can find a solution to the utility infielder issue rolub pointed out above, I see Ascab being sent down before anyone else gets cut or traded. It’ll allow him to work it out in AAA and Wedge gets more clutchy verteranness out of Caroll without having to cut any of his other clutchy veterans.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Apr 21, 2008 12:26 PM EDT
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I went with JMike.
My general opinion of Wege is ‘eh,’ but I can’t understand why Marte is even on the 25-man if they are going to absolutely refuse to play him. Might as well get something for him in trade, no? Even if it is only a bushel of oversized bananas. As it stands, he is only taking up roster space. We could put a real ‘veteran grinder’ in the mold of LeftOnBlake in that roster spot and increase our grind quotient. You know, someone with the ability to realize that ‘it’s a long season’ and that good players know how to ‘separate.’ That’s how we pull out of this funk. Separate, age, count games, and grind.
by CBusSteve on
Apr 21, 2008 12:28 PM EDT
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Because Marte is under contract for five years after 2008, and thus they may want to keep him even if they don’t find much use for him right away.
by Jay on
Apr 21, 2008 7:10 PM EDT
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Point taken, but I can’t imagine it helps a player’s development much to spend their entire age 24 or 25 year in the cage and taking pre-game BP and fungo(e?)s. Also, if we’re playing for this year in terms of keeping CC and such, then it makes little sense to fill roster spots with players you refuse to use. More than anything I was venting a personal frustration with Wedge.
I suppose it’s likely someone will be injured at some point, and he will get his shot there. Sadly, I don’t think he can count on Wedge to give it to him.
by CBusSteve on
Apr 22, 2008 9:50 AM EDT
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I voted Shelton. Please see the weekend set against the Twinks for my reasoning.
by JulioBernazard on
Apr 21, 2008 1:26 PM EDT
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What he said, only add “last July and August and half the ALCS as well.”
--
Right now, I'll take .500 and run. I'm a cheap happy.
by vbc3 on
Apr 21, 2008 9:56 PM EDT
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I think its J-Mike for a few different reasons. The stats are a starter and Wedge isn’t going to betray his Shocker brethren. It would have a greater impact in the psyche of the team. There really isn’t a replacement for the first three in the minors that is intriguing enough to surplant Marte as the next shot given to a youngster. I also think Blakes versatility makes Michaels more expendable.
by JK in CBus on
Apr 21, 2008 1:50 PM EDT
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I say Michaels. Anyone who says CC makes my brain hurt.
by Joe. on
Apr 21, 2008 1:57 PM EDT
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I voted J-Mike because I see that as the most likely move but I’m to the (probably irrational) point where a text message update announcing the firing(s) of Shelton and/or Wedge would give me some hope.
by Fios on
Apr 21, 2008 2:18 PM EDT
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michaels is a role-player, and to the extent he gets ABs against RHP, we should expect him to be pretty bad. 25 of his 47 2008 PAs have been against RHP, and, as expected, they were bad. i think he got most of them, however, spelling gutz when he was sick, so do we really want to throw him overboard for this?
his line against LHP, which is supposed to be good, is even worse than his line against RHP. BUT, we’re talking about 22 plate appearances here, or, about the same number of plate appearances grady gets in 4 games. should we really throw a guy overboard for having a terrible 4 games? it’s not even like he’s hitless, and he’s walked 4 times.
by emil minty on
Apr 21, 2008 2:23 PM EDT
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yeah but even if he gets back on track, he’s not that good. And excusing him for not hitting RHP is fine and all, but it doesn’t take away those at-bats. He shouldn’t be the guy we turn to when we need a replacement for Gutz, but he currently is. I don’t blame him for this, but I blame the composition of the team that puts a terrible hitter vs. RHP in that situation to the extent the Indians have. Bottom line is he’s not that valuable to us if he can’t hit LHP, Because of Gutz we don’t need him to back up Grady in CF, and any time he is put in the role to face RHP he’s terrible (track record backing this up). If Gutz was hitting than this wouldn’t be such a problem as Michaels suckitude would be limited to plate appearances vs. LHP, but its a problem, and we need a solution because there’s not garuantee that Gutz will hit perform like we thought, if that happens than we are stuck with Michaels vs. RHP and that is going to just be terrible. (choo might be the solution, Gutz hitting better might the solution, but I wouldn’t think twice about moving Michaels as his value isn’t that much to this team)
by hans on
Apr 21, 2008 3:02 PM EDT
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I’ll caveat this because I am a little to harsh on his value to us. He was valuable in the vaccum of this this team’s lineup last season as he was one of the better hitters vs. LHP last year in a lineup that wasn’t that good vs. LHP last year compared to the league.
by hans on
Apr 21, 2008 3:17 PM EDT
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I picked Shelton.
Michaels sucks. He is at best a guy who can get on base against lefties and play adequate defense at all three OF positions. Still, Francisco and Choo aren’t yet beating down the door. Blake doesn’t seem like a viable option in left against lefties. We should be looking for ways to reduce his role, not change it. Plus it means more playing time for Marte, and I don’t think Wedge is ready for that. Simply, Michaels isn’t a big enough problem (should only be playing 2x/wk and pinch hitting against loogys) to eat his modest contract.
Sizemore, Cabrera, Hafner, Peralta, Michaels, Gutz, and even Martinez (his slg% is only .400 and he has taken just 1 BB all year) are playing playing below expectations. The problem isn’t just our underachieving partime #7 hitter, its the whole freaking offense. A new voice could be helpful. I don’t have a replacement in mind, but I really think that Shelton’s days are numbered. If the lineups struggles continue into May, I think he is gone.
by DaytonDogg on
Apr 21, 2008 2:57 PM EDT
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I voted for Blake, but I think dumping Michaels is only less important because he plays less. Are they really going to wait until June to bench them (like they did with Nixon)? Or until August (like Barfield)?
Yeah, we haven’t seen a very significant number of ABs from either guy, but hopefully the front office is a little better at determining a trend than we are. I’m prepared to give them some benefit of the doubt, but the cases of Nixon and Barfield loom large, though.
Presumably we have the depth we enjoy for more than just injuries and late-season call-ups.
by FranklinScott on
Apr 21, 2008 3:31 PM EDT
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I think it’s too earl to make a move if we’re just going to be making lateral moves.
The only real improvement out there is Barry Bonds, and that’s just not happening. Dellucci’s not been a problem, but replacing Michaels only makes sense with somebody who hits lefties…something Michaels has always done and probably will do over the long-haul.
Kevin Mench is available, and he actually hits lefties better than Michaels. Last three years: .305/.361/.558. But he can’t hit RHP for the life of him. But he’s got nothing on defense, and he’s just as likely to take a dive over 22 at-bats as has Michaels.
If Sizemore, Hafner, Peralta, Blake, Gutierrez, and Cabrera would pitch in a little…
by xrickx on
Apr 21, 2008 4:18 PM EDT
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Borowski. If he comes back from the DL, he shouldn’t be given the closer reins much longer. My guess is they’ll keep him on the DL until they get an easy schedule stretch, let him throw a few innings where there is zero risk for blowing up, and then get rid of him. Hell, the Red Sox took Gagne last year, and then the Brewers signed him to close. They’ll find a taker for Joe Blo.
by zenbowl on
Apr 21, 2008 4:19 PM EDT
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too early to tell
cant get rid of jmike-dellucci’s arm isnt strong enough from left
however i wouldn’t mind seeing Cabrera go in favor of playing Jamey Caroll-he was one of the best second basemen in the national league and out of the 3 games he’s played he’s contirbuted way way way more then Cabrera has the whole season.
by danab on
Apr 21, 2008 4:37 PM EDT
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While Carroll’s defense looks fine, I think I would buy the career .704 Coors-aided OPS before I would buy the 18 at-bat 2008 .814 OPS. He’s a nice role player, but I’m not sure that he’s the answer. Especially for a team struggling offensively.
by CBusSteve on
Apr 21, 2008 4:59 PM EDT
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You can make a case for sending Droobs down to Buffalo to get his act together and force his way back into the infield picture. But let’s not get carried away with Carroll. He’s a handy guy to have around and far better than what we’ve had in the way of utility infielders, but he’s a little like Blake in that he’s most valuable when held in reserve.
by ken from alexandria on
Apr 21, 2008 5:01 PM EDT
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How long do most hitting coaches last? Shelton took over in June of 2005…so he’s getting close to three full years with the club. Seems to me that for a team in basically a year-long funk that a new fresh approach for some of the hitters would be beneficial. Don’t get me wrong, he’s done wonders with this lineup at times, but at some point a change has to be made. And we know Wedge isn’t going anywhere.
by supermarioelia on
Apr 21, 2008 4:44 PM EDT
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If Shelton went to Wichita State, he’ll never leave.
by CBusSteve on
Apr 21, 2008 5:00 PM EDT
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I got jumped all over a few days ago for saying something that implied the manager mattered. So, let me ask what evidence there is that hitting coaches matter. I know that when Shelton replaced Eddie Murray, the team seemed to hit better. But, now he’s being blamed by some for the team’s hitting woes (did he lose it? did he never have it? If so, why was he better than Murray?). I can accept the idea that firing a coach might have an effect on the team by getting their attention (and maybe giving them someone else to talk with/to), but I really wonder whether the actual content of what the coach says to the batters is all that different from one guy to the next (and, given that, how much difference they actually make).
by peter m on
Apr 21, 2008 5:36 PM EDT
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It might not actually matter a ton, but there are combination of possibilities. First, I think there is something to hearing a different voice. This team has a large majority of the same players as it did when Shelton took over. And, if I remember, Shelton coached a lot of these guys in the minors. They’ve heard his take on their swings for 2, 3, 4, 5 years. Hearing someone say the something in a different way might help. Second, and on a related note, a new hitting coach might focus on different details. A new guy might see a defect that Shelton has missed, seeing these same guys swing thousands and thousands of times. Third, this is symbolic more than anything. It would get the guys attention. Hopefully everyone realizes that 1 run in 19 innings isn’t acceptable, but it can’t hurt to send a little jolt through the clubhouse.
So you are right to doubt that a new hitting coach will say too much different, but there is the potential for some improvement. Not to mention, the simple need for a shakeup.
by DaytonDogg on
Apr 21, 2008 6:43 PM EDT
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I agree on the need for a shakeup. And, I hope you’re right that a different voice will help. I wonder, since a lot of the guys we’re talking about are “proven veterans” (Blake, Hafner, Michaels, even Sizemore and Peralta). I imagine it might help the younger guys more (i.e., Cabrera, Gutierrez, etc.)
by peter m on
Apr 21, 2008 8:34 PM EDT
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None of the above. Jeff Stevens is going to leapfrog Mujica on the depth chart and knock Jorge Julio out of the organization by the all-star break.
by Thommy on
Apr 21, 2008 6:06 PM EDT
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jeff stevens once played leapfrog in elementary school and gave his best friend a cuncussion on his turn.
by Brick. on
Apr 21, 2008 6:33 PM EDT
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cuncussion?
JoBo wanted to play leap frog in elementary school, but his arm was too weak, and he couldn’t push himself over the other kids.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Apr 21, 2008 7:00 PM EDT
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you have to use your imagination. but not too much. this is a family site.
by Brick. on
Apr 21, 2008 8:06 PM EDT
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Jeff Stevens had a rough outing last night in the Aeros game. So did Elarton for Buffalo. The minor league relievers have not exactly been making a case for themselves, for the most part. And, Mastny is more vulnerable than Julio at this point, I would have thought.
by peter m on
Apr 22, 2008 10:34 AM EDT
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Yes, but Mastny can be sent down; Julio can only be released.
by Jay on
Apr 24, 2008 11:49 AM EDT
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That’s more or less what I meant. I doubt they’ll release Julio right now, especially since they don’t really have a replacement who’s clearly better.
by peter m on
Apr 25, 2008 9:49 AM EDT
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I voted for nobody.
Michaels—I don’t care if we dump him, but I don’t see that it helps us much. He’s not much of the reason for our funk, even as awful as he’s hit.
Blake – ditto.
AbaCab – I don’t see his hitting as demote-after-three-weeks bad. Aren’t his numbers still better than BP 2003 and J-Barf 2007? And he’s a better defender than those two or anyone else in the organization.
Wedge – the individual performance struggles have been so profound they can’t possibly have much to do with managing. His job along with the coaches is to help these players right their individual ships.
Shelton – the Indians’ biggest problem is their average, and that problem gets amplified through SLG and TB. Their walk rate is still above-average, and both BABIP and HR/F give every appearance that half the lineup is suffering from atrocious luck on top of their real performance problems. Bottom line, how can any smart team fire a hitting coach over three weeks of low batting average, knowing what we know about the volatility of that stat?
by Jay on
Apr 21, 2008 7:54 PM EDT
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I also voted for no one.
There are 2 possible strategies for the season as defined by management.
1)We are in contention by the trading deadline and CC must be a part of that overall battle to go all the way as this is his final season with the club. Veteran players are counted on to carry the majority of the load.
2)We are out of contention close to the trading deadline and CC is dealt. At this point, less veteran players are given as many opportunities as they can handle.
A lot more games need to play out before anyone can conclude that this team has no chance to contend. The vets will continue to either make or break CC’s final season.
by elsandito on
Apr 22, 2008 3:45 PM EDT
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Can we add a place so I can vote for Cliff Lee ironically?
by NickFantana on
Apr 25, 2008 9:11 AM EDT
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Well, we’re now 41 games into the season and only Michaels from this list has been thrown overboard.
Mastny and Tyner have come and gone.
The other names on this list appear to relatively safe for the near future.
Sowers and Laffey can potentially make way for JoBo and Westbrook if it comes to that, yet return in a jiffy if necessary. The more interesting question is whether, when and how Shapiro adds a bat to the roster.
The fact that the Indians are winning and in first place has bought Sharpiro some more time to shop among the
teams that fall by the wayside.
by palcal on
May 16, 2008 12:57 AM EDT
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