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Walking in Kinston, Hoynes is still Hoynes, and other media musings.

Now back at home, I'm excited to get back to posting in game and fanpost threads more regularly.  Some recent media irked me (and some impressed me), so here's a little roundup, complete with holier-than-thou condescension and snark.

If you're not really an insider, you're just an idiot fan who likes to speculate.

Paul Hoynes offers the super-insidery tidbit that "Francisco's stay could be brief."  Then he quotes Wedge as saying, "You never know what will happen.  I told him to stay ready."

So, essentially, Francisco is up, but might be sent back down soon, but might not.  Thanks for that.

Oh, and Jeremy Sowers has a sample size-free 20.25 ERA in his career against the Yankees.  So that's something.

Speaking of the Yankees, JoePos nails it.

Great stuff as usual, with the added bonus of targeting Chuck's burning nemesis.  Though I have to say that I grew to like Paul O'Neill in the booth very much last year -- especially when comparing him to his counterparts on other broadcasts.

Holy crap, 40 at bats, 20 walks.

Of course I'm speaking of... what's his name again...

Anyway, Kinston Tribers are taking a bunch of pitches.  If only that will translate as they progress.  And if only the real Tribers would follow suit.  Cause right now we're walking less than Steven Hawking.

Can we end the practice of quoting unnamed scouts?

Cause it's almost always worthless.  But Jayson Stark sees fit to quote the unnamed scout to bolster his assertion that Cliff Lee's insane start is "more real than not."  I certainly hope that's true.

"I think he has to be for real," Stark quotes the wise scout as saying. "He's pitched this way before. Now he's showing the same ability again. And the only glitch was when he got hurt. So why wouldn't he be for real?"

The "only glitch" was when he got hurt?  I can think of a suitcase full of glitches.  But again, here's hoping.

And Jon Heyman thinks he's clever.  But not so timely, it turns out.

"C.C. could stand for Crazy Control."  Good one!  Very biting.

But I'm more interested in the end of his piece, where he lists some walk-year performances.  Many lazy media scribes love to haul out the meme that walk-year equals extra motivation.  I haven't seen anyone do any kind of research to either back this up or (much more likely) take this idea apart.

So if anyone has come across those kinds of numbers, I'd love to see them.  And then I'd mail them to every mainstream sportswriter.

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Actually, I think someone at BPro showed that players do in fact perform better in their contract years. I think it was in Baseball Between the Numbers.

by ClarkM on Apr 23, 2008 10:58 AM EDT   0 recs

Hmm, I’ll google it. Maybe I shouldn’t doubt the allure of dollars.

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 11:01 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If I remember right, I read a summary somewhere saying it’s about 15% but doesn’t show up in all players. Now, how that’s measured, how reliable, etc. etc. I have no idea, and don’t have a link. In other words, just my worthless memory.

by Voltaire on Apr 24, 2008 12:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

sweet. thanks tabler.

by emil minty on Apr 23, 2008 10:59 AM EDT   0 recs

Is it really true that Indians players have not been walking? I don’t think that’s really true (seem to recall Jay saying we’ve actually been walking a lot). What we HAVEN’T been doing is hitting!

by peter m on Apr 23, 2008 11:03 AM EDT   0 recs

Peter,

Garko is walking a ton, but I’m not encouraged with other starters. Pronk’s not walking like his usual self—which could be an early sign that pitchers are not as scared of him as they used to be. Victor has walked one freaking time in 55 at bats. Peralta is behind schedule. Neither Gutz nor Cabrera have shown much progress in taking pitches.

But alas, now I’m perhaps falling victim to sample size.

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 11:07 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I had a closer look and you’re probably right. We’re not walking as much at this point as we did last year; the pattern’s more like 2006 (oh no!!). But, it looks to me as if it’s really Hafner and Martinez who are the reasons for the drop off, not a team-wide thing. Sizemore has started to walk more and Dellucci has done all right, which is a good thing. And, we’re doing better than we did in 2005 (at least in April). SSS is right, but there are clearly guys on the team who need to be more selective.

by peter m on Apr 23, 2008 11:26 AM EDT   0 recs

I’ve missed the media reviews, Evan, and I actually was thinking about asking you if you’d do more of them. I hope you will. Very fine work here.

by Jay on Apr 23, 2008 12:39 PM EDT   0 recs

Nice of you to say. It was, for good reason, easier to do in the playoffs. So much more material.

By the way, just saw this in the latest Sports Illustrated: SI took an MLB players poll. They asked who would win the World Series.

45% (!) said the Tigers. Only 2% said the Indians, barely worth a small-type mention at the bottom of the page. The lesson is that even major leaguers can be fooled by big names and an overdose of hype.

That’s not to say that no one should pick the Tigers. It’s just that there’s NO WAY we should be that far apart. Sick.

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 12:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ditto on the nice work Evan. Of course one dose of Joe Morgan should be all you need to know that on-the-field talent doesn’t always correlate with talent evaluation.

by CBusSteve on Apr 23, 2008 1:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You are surprised that MLB players are not sophisticated analysts?

Projecting standings is real analytical work, requiring an understanding of year-over-year performance correlation, age-based tendencies, roster construction, platoon splits, etc. Many players don’t have a great understanding of how their own team functions on a raw production basis, let alone all 29 others. Frankly, it’s not their job to understand.

by Jay on Apr 23, 2008 1:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Looks like Weglarz, Drennen, Mills and Todd Martin are collectively walking in more than 20% of their plate appearances, which is simply beyond reason.

But there is a problem in that Rivero and Goedert apparently haven’t gotten the memo—just 1 BB in some 125 trips to the plate. Rivero might get a free pass on this for a few months, being just 19 (for a few more weeks) and a flashy shortstop. But if Goedert thinks he gets a free pass just because of his .323 average, he’s sadly mistaken.

Goedert is not a flashy shortstop, not a teenager (he turns 23 next month), and also not hitting for any power—just three doubles and no triples or dingers on the year. He needs to be controlling the strike zone, and in Kinston, he needs to get it done this year.

by Jay on Apr 23, 2008 12:47 PM EDT   0 recs

How long, Jay, until we can conclude that Hafner is not earning the same trepediation from opposing pitchers? I mean, he’s one 4-walk game from being back on a nice clip, but it’s still worrisome to me.

I just find myself over-analyzing Pronk. Last night, on the sac fly, I had concurrent, competing thoughts: “Nice, another opposite field rip, that’s a good sign,” and, “That ball was up, and in 2006 he might have hit it out instead of to the warning track.” WTF is wrong with me? When Hafner isn’t going well, I’m not going well, I guess.

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 12:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m just sick of it. Tired of spotting when he “looks good” and when he “looks bad.” Seems like either way, he hardly ever has an impressive line in the box score, and at some point, that’s just not about luck. I’m not a scout anyway.

by Jay on Apr 23, 2008 1:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No, you’re much too bright to be a scout…

You give a good bottom-line assessment of Hafner. It’s just hard to accept. I’d love to watch video of his 2006 at bats. The guy was simply frightening, controlling the zone, battling tough lefties, and seemingly laying off every sucker pitch. There are certain things we don’t understand, I suppose; I could handle this more easily if the decline had come in between seasons. But his last April was impressive, and it’s a real head scratcher to see it vanish during a campaign.

I just don’t want four years of Andre Thornton for this price.

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 1:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The notion that scouts are a bunch of know-nothing idiots is about as intelligent as thinking bloggers are a bunch of losers sitting in their mom’s basement.

by ClarkM on Apr 23, 2008 1:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Okay, Clark, that’s fair enough, but I was making a joke, you see.

My initial complaint lies in the fact that baseball writers love to use anonymous scouts as sources that somehow solidify their ideas. Sports Illustrated has - for many years, though perhaps not this year if I recall correctly - employed the wisdom of opposing scouts in previewing every team in the league.

Do scouts understand the game? I’m sure they understand many parts of the game much more than I ever could.

But do they also suffer from a lack of statistical understanding? It’s a sweeping generalization, but based on the myriad quotes and interviews I’ve read, they often do.

So I’m not saying that scouts are an anachronism, but when they talk to writers, it can seem like they want to be perceived as such.

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 1:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I will take up the scouts’ cause a little bit.

First, re: my “bottom-line assessment” above, it’s not of Hafner, it’s of my own state of mind. If you want to say that I’m bright, it’s only because I understand that difference. I am not a scout, and I don’t have the patience to await a more statistically valid result from Hafner’s performance data.

Second, I don’t know if scouts generally understand the statistical truisms and tendencies of the games, but I do know that it’s not their job to understand those things. They go out to observe a player’s performance within a sample that has no meaning or validity whatsoever. They are there to observe not his performance results but his skills, approach, methods, preparation, body language, etc.

It might help if a scout had a massive understanding of the game’s nuances from a data perspective, but I suspect it wouldn’t help all that much. There’s no need to have a scout evaluate a player’s walk rate; we already know what the walk rate is. Hell, the scout might be better off not knowing too much about what a player’s tendencies supposedly are.

If you know the guy has a high walk rate, you might “see” selectivity at the plate, where if you don’t, you might see a guy who’s too tentative against certain pitchers to ever take a decent swing. I would argue that if a certain scout is worth paying a dime to do his job, you’d rather just find out what he observed without predirection or bias.

I’m sure plenty of scouts are well capable of understanding baseball statistics on a highly sophisticated level – this stuff really ain’t rocket science—but it’s not their job to do so. And if you ask a scout about a player, why would you expect him to tell you anything about his stats?

by Jay on Apr 23, 2008 3:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’d have argued in favor of a scout broadening their statistical understanding, but you made a wholly convincing argument against predirection. Sold on that point.

My beef is not that scouts are not the most perfectly rounded analysts; it’s that writers occasionally conflate scouts’ ability to accurately measure a player’s approach / method / preparation with scouts’ ability to translate those things into a big-picture or seasonal analysis.

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 3:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

By the way, I think that perhaps I’m not being clear enough in regards to my initial comments.

It’s just journalistically lazy to rely on any kind of anonymous source unless you have a really good reason. If you’re a sportswriter and you decide that your opinion about what ails Player A is Cause A, if you talk to enough scouts, one is bound to agree with you. And it’s even easier for you as a writer, because you don’t have the pressure of clarifying which team the scout works for, or what level they work at! Scouts are given such a commanding respect by sportswriters that simply writing, “One scout told me XYZ” tends to be good enough.

And once the scout confirms your view, you don’t have to spend any of your precious time doing, you know, statistical research that might back up that view. Why, the scout said it! What else would a reader need?

I mean, do you think the only thing that Cliff Lee struggled with last season was injury? Shouldn’t we check first-pitch strikes, walk rate, and other metrics before relying on that analysis? Could we also reasonably assume that he was a mental mess, prone to tipping a cap to booing fans?

But this is just one example, and the larger point is that journalists should avoid the lazy route. Jayson Stark probably didn’t write his piece with an assumption that Cliff Lee only suffered from injury last year; Stark probably thought, “Okay, I’m on the phone with a scout, let’s get his take and be done with it.” Had he been talking to a different scout, couldn’t that scout have said, “I need more time to be convinced with Lee. He looks great, but let’s see how he handles the league’s better lineups. Last season he convinced me that he doesn’t have the courage to throw strikes to teams like Boston.” Then Stark’s story - based on one unnamed scout! - would have been totally different.

If I’m covering politics, I could load up any piece I write or air with anonymous sources and cut my work time down immeasurably. How will they balance the budget? “Republicans are trying to force us to raise taxes by opposing chargebacks,” said one Democrat who wished to remain anonymous. Boom! Story, controversy, and more free time to drink Brunello for yours truly! Of course, getting people on the record takes more work—and might require more honest assessment.

That’s it for this rant. Sorry if I wasn’t clear earlier; I hope that clears up my frustration.

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 2:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don’t think many people would disagree with you that only relying on one scout’s take is lazy, but I think you have created a strawman because that doesn’t appear to be what Stark did. He polled a buch of people througout baseball, some scouts, some executives (who probably have a better understanding of statistical analysis) to get their takes on some early season performances. In the article, he said that most people he polled felt that Lee’s struggles last year stemmed from his injury (I’m not sure if that’s true, but it is not an outrageous assumption either). He then used a quote from an anonymous scout to represent that sentiment. I don’t know what’s wrong with that, but then again I know very little about journalism.

I jumped on your scout’s are dumb remark, because its a bit of a pet peeve. Obviously scouts aren’t experts in statistical analysis, but they also don’t claim to be, that’s why most organizations and news outlets are starting to use scouts and analyists in conjunction with one another. Simply relying on scouts is stupid, but so is relying soley on statistical analysis.

by ClarkM on Apr 23, 2008 2:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think your last point is spot on.

Regarding Stark’s piece, I’ll concede that it’s not the most egregious example of what I’m talking about. While only quoting one scout, he seems to have tried to talk to multiple sources. But the item is still accompanied by no effort from Stark to evaluate the potential accuracy of an anonymous source’s claim. That’s weak.

To some extent, writers like Stark might feel handcuffed without offering anonymity. GMs depend on it, of course. But I can tell you as a journalist - I’ve fallen victim to this myself, trust me - it’s tempting to allow quotes, anecdotes, and off-hand analysis to replace any kind of work on the journalist’s part.

I think it’s a significant reason why many sports broadcasters and writers have been very slow to come around to understanding the statistical evolution in baseball. They don’t have to do research or legwork themselves. They can rely on others’ judgements and just call it a day. And they’re relying on the judgement of people who have often “been in the game for years” and thus aren’t inclined to accept a new wave of evaluation.

Again, we’re veering into broad generalizations that might be a tad unfair, but that’s my broad, generalizing assessment.

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 3:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

As far as I know, Stark makes no attempt at serious analysis, ever, regardless of whether he’s citing scouting or performance data.

by Jay on Apr 23, 2008 3:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And you know, maybe I’m being unreasonably tough on him. After all, his stuff primarily consists of slapping a bunch of strange and perhaps interesting details and coincidences together on a page. Hardly hardcore analysis, I know.

But when he does try to veer into it, I tend to think he flops (while often tripping over his overly flowery language).

So maybe I’m just picking a weak example to vent about, eh?

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 3:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

His column should be called “This Wacky Baseball Game!”

He can be fun to read, and he’s a pretty good writer, but it does bug me whenever he purports to be making an analytical point that should be taken seriously. But I could say the same for Buster Olney and all the tiresome HOF arguments. These people are children when it comes to really giving a serious answer about anything, and they act like they’re adults.

by Jay on Apr 23, 2008 3:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Makes you wonder why they don’t beg Scott Raab to shake things up…

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 3:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, this goes back to a more general media criticism that goes way beyond sports, i.e., they think they’re giving us what we want, but are they right?

by Jay on Apr 23, 2008 3:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

for the record. i love the world “pabulum”.

by Brick. on Apr 23, 2008 3:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ha! Several years ago I remember trying to spell it, and realzing that I had no earthly idea.

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 3:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Whoops. How about “realizing.” Nice.

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 3:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Also! If they’re not giving us more Scott Raab, they are most certainly not giving us what we want.

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 3:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

How could “scout’s [sic] are dumb” be a pet peeve?

Outside of the awkward joke in this thread, who talks about scouts being dumb?

I can’t remember ever reading about scouts being dumb.

by Jay on Apr 23, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And who talks about relying solely on statistical analysis?

I think you are inventing extreme views to rail against. Nobody actually says these things.

by Jay on Apr 23, 2008 3:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

“I can’t remember ever reading about scouts being dumb.”

Moneyball, Michael Lewis.

“And who talks about relying solely on statistical analysis?”

I realize that this debate is largely over and that it is not a controversial position, and maybe I am clouded by a recent conversation I had with a friend who still held this view. I am willing to acknowledge that it may not be as widespread as I think.

So what was your point?

by ClarkM on Apr 23, 2008 4:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think we can agree that your friend is an idiot, and his position is quite fringe.

On the other hand, the position that statistical analysis should not go well beyond the traditional “triple crown” stats, and that statistical analysis can never provide insight that controverts a scouting report, well, that view still has strongholds within the mainstream of not just fans but prominent baseball writers, even now that that a-hole from the NY Times has been laid off.

Of course among reasonable folks there is no debate at all, but to the extent there is a debate, it isn’t a balanced one. The ridiculous anti-stat sentiment is perhaps 100 times more prevalent than whatever equally ridiculous anti-scouting sentiment that might be out there.

by Jay on Apr 24, 2008 12:42 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually I would argue that folks on this site rely too much on statistics. A quick retrospective look at many of the comments regarding Lee’s problems last year, the unwarranted faith in a Hafner bounce back and the rampant disregard for Garko’s skills are excellent examples.

With Lee it was pretty clear, to me anyway, that Lee wasn’t bending back, kicking off his drive leg and following through – all of which can be sequelae of his abdominal injury. But what we talked about here, for the most part, were Lee’s “peripheral” stats all of which pointed to his eventual demise. That and punching him in the face.

With Garko his progress vs age through the minors were proof positive that he would never be much of a major leaguer, plus he’d never hit for power. Well he’s not yet Albert Pujols, but he looks like a top tier major league first baseman to me – minor league stats be damned.

And Hafner – Hafner – no scouting evaluation here, other than there’s been no observable change in his swing. Any scout worth his two dollar cigar will tell you that a sudden drop off in performance without any discernable change in swing is often confidence related. This whole shift thing has gotten inside Hafner’s head. I stand by my original assessment of the Hafner contract: it’s gonna prove to be the worst Indian signing since Wayne Garland. I think that Shapiro will rue the day that he relied on regression in projecting Hafner’s next six years.

Statistics are very useful for evaluating what’s happened, but less valuable for what might happen. That’s where the scouts come in. I’m not arguing for emphasizing one over the other, but a prudent blend of all the available information is key.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Apr 24, 2008 9:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

We could get into a long and tiresome discussion of Hafner’s contract, but for a variety of reasons, it was an important move. He was, what, roughly a month into the new Hafner?

And for my money, Ricky Guiterrez is hard to top in terms of contract bile.

by tabler84 on Apr 24, 2008 10:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Fans’ memories are quite unkind to Ricky. He had an injury where fused spinal segments inhibited his mobility. I think once they figured it out, one doctor said it was a miracle he hadn’t died while trying to play through it.

by Jay on Apr 24, 2008 10:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I feel for him as a person, but I’m not sure how that’s relevant to the contract that we offered and he accepted. He was 31. His career OPS was under .700. 2001 indicated his walk rate the previous year was likely a fluke. And for a guy with warning track power, his career high in two baggers was a measly 24, resulting in a carrer high slugging of a whisker over .400.

All of which is to say that even without his medical condition, we knew his ceiling, and his ceiling was as a league average middle infielder. He was well past his peak age. We could have filled his position with any number of players making the league minimum and expected similar, equal, or even better production. And for a team in transition, 3 years and $11 million is a big mistake for this kind of player.

by tabler84 on Apr 25, 2008 5:35 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If I knew how to use the new search function I could call up my response to the Hafner signing. Suffice it to say I didn’t like it then and I like it even less now. To my mind it was clear that signing Hafner that long for that much money was a dumb move. Still is.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Apr 24, 2008 10:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’ve missed you, Chuck. And I’ve missed the rank stench of theory confirmation bias.

Scouting did no better at predicting Hafner’s future performance than performance analysis, and you personally didn’t predict it any better than anybody else here. One thing we know about Shapiro is that he had collected and understood every possible type of data when he made those decisions, and that certainly included the views of every scout in his employ.

I think it’s great that you love Garko - hell, who doesn’t love Garko, anyway? - but the words “top tier major league first baseman” simply have no place in a discussion of a guy who has never managed a 900 OPS - not in the majors, not in Triple-A, not since 43 games in Double-A when he put up a not-towering 905 - just 200 points below what Kouzmanoff did there, by the way.

We just got through a whole discussion in which it was demonstrated that Justin Morneau isn’t among the top tier (or two) of 1B/DH players, and Morneau is at least a whisker or two ahead of Garko. Garko is about exactly what the “stat folks” expected him to be, and by the way, Garko has exceeded the consensus scouting expectations in terms of his conditioning and defensive skills.

As for Lee, I congratulate you, I think, for diagnosing his problems effectively, I think. But the statistical observations weren’t wrong, and if anything, they complemented your own observations. The observation was essentially that he wasn’t going to bounce back without becoming a substantially different pitcher, whether that meant conditioning or control or velocity or technique or mechanics or whatever. He’s a lot healthier, he’s sharpened his mechanics and control, and that’s why he’s better. The point statistically was that he wasn’t going to be able to just “work through it,” and I think that was absolutely correct.

by Jay on Apr 24, 2008 10:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Theory confirmation bias – is that what you call it? How about making a judgment on future performance and reviewing your prediction method by comparing your predictions with what actually happened – how about trying that?

The Hafner signing was poorly timed and badly executed. At the very least Shapiro shoulda waited until Hafner either snapped out of it or not. As it is it’s a bone-headed move and no amount of data spinning makes it otherwise.

And Garko’s still developing. Despite his age I think his power numbers will continue to rise. As I keep saying – hang on to this post and let’s see if I’m talking through my hat.

Of course Lee’s not going to continue to pitch with damn near flawless consistency – but he’s still one of the top 30 pitchers in the AL. Again, hang onto this – we’ll talk about it in October.

Bottom line: these are human beings playing this game and are almost by diffinition some of the most difficult systems to predict. Like I said, stats are great for looking back at what’s happened but have limitations when it comes to making projections. That’s where you need experience and judgment – the things that seperate good scouts from guys sitting in the stands and talkng bull shit.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Apr 24, 2008 10:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Have I not made it clear, like, a million times that I’m not a scout and I damned well know it?

There isn’t anyone who can put together what seems at first glance to be a really good track record of predicting what players will do. There’s just way too much variance, noise—human element even. I’ve had my doozies in the prediction game in both directions, and I’m not going to lose sleep over the bad ones or bray about the good ones. It’s just the nature of the game.

Re: comparing predictions with what actually happened, how about you give that a try yourself? For example, actually looking at how Garko has actually hit rather than focusing on how he “looks like a top tier first baseman to me” ? Great—that’s what he looks like to you. Meanwhile, your prediction? C-minus at best.

I will admit, I did not give you enough (or in fact any) credit for predicting the persistence of Hafner’s problems, i.e., that it looks more and more like a permanent decline every day. But calling a big contract a disaster on day one isn’t that different than calling a home run at the start of an at-bat. If you’re right, yay for you, and if you’re wrong, nobody remembers or cares anyway. I’ll add that you were right about many elements of C.C.’s contract situation, too.

by Jay on Apr 25, 2008 1:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Look Jay I’m not trying to toot my own horn here – I’ll admit it sure looks like it – but my comment is more about the over reliance on stats. What I’m saying is that projecting human performance is an art, not a science. And as any engineer will tell you statistics are the basest form of scientific analysis.

And I’m talking about Garko future, not Garko present. I see him becoming and even more disciplined hitter with increasing power over the next 2 to 3 years. I could be wrong here, but I’m still optimistic about Garko’s development – and I could give a rat ass about his AAA numbers and how they compare to other minor leaguers. I’m just watching the guy play. We’ll talk in October.

And as to: "calling a big contract a disaster on day one isn’t that different than calling a home run at the start of an at-bat" – common Jay, you’re smarter than that. "Calling" a home run is like reaching into a bowl of M&Ms and "calling" what color it is. Hafner’s issues were knowable – at the very least apparent – to a any well seasoned scout. At the very least Shapiro shoulda waited until it was clear how Hafner was gonna deal with his prolonged slump. And no Tabler, he wasn’t a month into his tailspin, more like three months – I’d look up the stats but I got work to do before I leave for Maui this afternoon. Again, any 1930’s style scout woulda told you that Hafner’s problems were not just temporary.

I’ll do the medicine vis-à-vis baseball analogy one more time. There’s lots of data available to modern docs that wasn’t available to the old timers. As a result medicine as it’s practiced today is superior, but not as superior as you might think. Medicine is a people business – just like baseball – and unless you try to understand people you’ll never be successful at either one.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Apr 25, 2008 7:18 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Chuck,

Now we’re splitting hairs, but he wasn’t three months into his tailspin, either. For the record:

2007 stats

April: 1021 OPS

May: Batted only .228, but walked 28 times, posted an OBP of .394, slugged a modest . 455, and added 11 extra base hits along with 24 RBI.

June: Swoon. 16 walks, .702 OPS.

July 11: Signed 4-year contract

So Chuck, let’s go back to 2007. Hafner is coming off two of the most productive offensive seasons of any Indian in history. He’s still in potential prime years, 29 and about to turn 30.

In April, the only potential red flag was a SLG of .550. In May, you could argue that he fought a hitting funk to post decent numbers for a down month. June was a big problem, but when you consider that the Tribe’s front office had likely been working on the deal for months, you’re telling me that you nuke the deal and walk away?

by tabler84 on Apr 25, 2008 9:27 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Give me a little more latitude something between falling all over myself to sign him and smacking him in the face. How about this: do the old management soft-shoe for a couple of months – something like, “let’s table this until the end of the season” and wait to see how Hafner responds to his “slump”. Given where’s he at now, I’d offer him an incentive laden 4 year contract. If he balks I’d tell him aloha and look for a Frank Thomas type retread to fill in for a year or two while waiting for one of our prospects to surface. Barring that it’s Shoppach catching with Vic and Garko alternating at first and DH.

Lot’s of options here – and you know Hafner still might snap out of it. But tying up $60M on Hafner was a boned headed move reaking of disperation – Shapiro’s smarter than that.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Apr 25, 2008 9:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Garko … let’s just say, for argument’s sake, that you’re a pro scout and I’ve never watched a game of baseball, I’m just looking at the numbers. Then you might have a point. But you’re not a pro scout, and I’ve watched maybe 1000 games over the years, I never really thought to count before.

And while I grant that you might be seeing something that a pro scout would see, I see a merely very deft contact hitter, great hand/eye coordination. He’s got a good eye for strikes but is not a take-and-rake hitter, he’s operating more on gut reaction, more like Belliard (in a good year) than Sizemore if you will. He’s got that knack for putting the ball in play, that thing that all those toolsy busted prospects didn’t have, he’s got it. But he doesn’t have it in massive quantities, he’s not Nomar, let alone Boggs or Gwynn, and he has good power but not impressive or fearsome power. He frankly doesn’t have Dave Dellucci’s power, perhaps in part because his style of hitting isn’t really conducive to big swats.

These observations are informed by the numbers, but it would be just as accurate to say my take on his stats is informed by visual observation of the player at work, and both are further informed by careful reading of the (always PR-biased) reported statements of scouts. I will tilt to the stats only because I have more confidence in my ability to interpret them than I do in my scouting ability—you know the real truth, Chuck, which is that I’m a hack either way, but at least with the stats I can be considered a talented amateur.

Anyway, what this comes down to really is that I think your faith in your own scouting is taken to an extreme, where you’re willing to totally ignore some of the more reliable things we know from 100 years of baseball data. Perhaps more bias is added based on affection for the player or his style of play, and we’re all guilty of that, and maybe you should just admit it.

But anyway, what we know about Garko is that he’s done what he’s done, and he’s already 27, when the average or typical major leaguer peaks. The average 27-29 guy is in mild decline, while the average 25-27 guy is a little projectable, but even at that age, most of his projection is due to continuing adjustments to major league pitching, not due to physiological development. Age 25-27 are nowhere near as projectable as age 23-25, where typically players are gaining significant experience and physiological strength, and 21-23 is still another order of magnitude more projectable. There is in fact a trend where young, adept contact hitters show improved plate discipline when they get a few years older—this is why Sizemore was considered so projectable (statistically) without big walk numbers, and he’s followed that pattern to a tee. The problem is that this effect is observed in early-20’s guys, not late-20’s guys.

You know all this, I think, but you perhaps are ignoring the brute force of these trends. Two significant recent signposts around Garko would be Paul Konerko and Lyle Overbay. Overbay emerged a little later, had a very nice peak for Milwaukee at ages 27-29 and has struggled to stay a quality hitter, somewhat because of injury. Garko is better than this guy, but there isn’t really evidence he’s all that much better. Konerko broke in a little earlier and was a little better than Garko for age 25-26, then suffered an odd off-year at age 27—with the benefit of hindsight, obviously an aberration. He bounced back to have his best seasons at age 28-30, and maybe this is what you foresee for Garko.

Okay, then, maybe. But even Konerko’s late-20’s surge only amounted to OPS of 894, 909, 932, OPS+ of 127, 136, 134. This would in fact be a couple notches better than Garko has been so far, but it would amount to a brief sojourn as a top-tier first baseman. Just for comparison, Jim Thome has had four seasons in that 125-135 range … and ten seasons in the 140-170 range … and one big, fat 197. Konerko in a good year is Jim Thome in a bad year, and if Garko continues to develop and has a nice 28-30 slightly late peak, that’ll make him Konerko. And frankly, it’s unfair for us to expect more than that from him, it would be fantastic if he did exactly that … peaking in his first two years of arbitration.

I guess what this boils down to is that I think your observations of Garko are valid - certainly more valid than the average fan’s - but i also think you’d do well to contextualize your expectations of him along the lines of what he can really do, what he’s really done, and what other players have done. Garko’s who outperform are Konerkos, not Frank Thomases.

I won’t debate further the Thome contract except to dispute your speculation of the decision as “desperate.” Shapiro has no track record of making desperate moves, ever, and he was not in a desperate situation, which I think you also have noted. If anything, this fits a pattern of Shapiro and the whole organization not being reactive to a handful of games—of assuming that what was true in early May is probably still true in early July, that a short-term aberration, physical or statistical, is always more likely than a drastic long-term shift in long-term trends. We don’t know what Shapiro’s coaches and scouts were telling him about Hafner at that time, but we can assume that he believed he was seeing an aberration.

The team is well served by this kind of steadiness the great majority of the time, but it does appear that it led to a significant error in this instance.

by Jay on Apr 25, 2008 1:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

on quoting unnamed scouts

Scouts are at least smart enough to know that if they’re going to comment on something important (e.g., what’s the deal with Cliff Lee?), they’d better do it “off the record.” I mean, it’s not realistic to expect Stark or anyone else to be quoting named scouts, though once in a while it happens.

by ken from alexandria on Apr 23, 2008 4:19 PM EDT   0 recs

Yes, that’s true. But, since scouts aren’t likely to comment ON the record, building a story almost entirely around that person’s comment limits its value. There’s no way to check who said what, in what context, who the scout is (could actually be a person who isn’t very smart), and so on. A way to deal with that might be to talk to some players, who often are more willing to say what they think on the record (for example when Ordonez said that he thought CC’s velocity was okay, but his command was off). It shouldn’t be hard to get some of the A’s or Twins to compare Lee08 to Lee05 or 06 to see if they think he’s legitimately “back.”

by peter m on Apr 23, 2008 4:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think that last point nails it, peter. As a reader, I have no idea how long a nameless scout has spent evaluating a particular player. But it’s almost always valuable to hear what actual players say about their peers. Who will ever forget Torii Hunter’s evaluation of Carmona?

by tabler84 on Apr 23, 2008 4:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

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