Game Thread: April 27, 2008 - 7th Inning
by Jay on Apr 27, 2008 2:52 PM EDT
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PrintNew York Yankees at Cleveland Indians, Oct 4, 2007 6:37 PM EDT
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lets go tribe
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 3:13 PM EDT reply actions
fuck
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 3:13 PM EDT reply actions
Grady will pinch hit in the bottom of the 9th with a walk off, continuing the streak. I’m calling it now.
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:14 PM EDT reply actions
I think a walk off HR is evidence of being healthy, fierce, and productive
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
well, it would have to be played now, wouldn’t it?
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Sizemore was not in the starting lineup for four games last season.
His consecutive starts streak ended today at something like 28.
Ripken’s streak wasn’t for starts, either
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, it was.
Ripken started every game from May 30 1982 through September 20 1998.
When he made a pinch-hit appearance in 1999, it was his first since 1981.
Problem is, he had his best season in years in 1999, at age 38, after ending the streak. At age 39, with many days off, he was essentially the same hitter he was at age 31-34, with no days off.
CC made one mistake. Solo shot by Melky
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
On the positive and trending, note, CC with another solid start. On the negative, bats again dead.
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:19 PM EDT reply actions
if you draft a player, does it count as developed? joba played college baseball, so that doesnt count, right?
my helmet has, like, no pine tar on it.
College drafted guys count. Who else deserves the credit? The coach who developed his skill with an aluminum bat?
For prospects acquired in trade, I credit the new organization if most of the player’s time in AA and AAA was with the new organization.
Hafner - no. Sizemore - yes.
Can announcers put a moratorium on the phrase “one game away”?
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:22 PM EDT reply actions
cc = god of big things
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 3:24 PM EDT reply actions
JMike hustled out that bloop double today. He still sucks, but I’m just saying.
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
DO NOT SWING AT ANYTHING STARTING OUT BELOW THE WAIST.
Good God, don’t these guys read my posts?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
I have a friend named Vitor who likes to brag otherwise.
by supermarioelia on Apr 27, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
more important. are the midges available?
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m losing brain cells listening to TBS
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:33 PM EDT reply actions
still CC, eh?
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 3:34 PM EDT reply actions
I don’t know. the TBS announcers are too busy spouting platitudes
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:35 PM EDT reply actions
LGT has been seriously lacking in wang jokes today. We can only blame ourselves for the performance on the field.
good point
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
+ westbrook but he is hurt
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
i think he’s hilarious
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Weather for Monday’s game sounds brutal.
Could the Indians have a quick trigger on postponing the game? What would ESPN say?
5 seconds left in Cavs-Wiz. Delonte West just hit a three to put the Cavs up by 3. Wiz ball. Great game. The Cavs had missed something like their last 6 shots prior to that.
I can’t wait to just switch back to the Indians game.
does pronk have options left?
The Disabled List just called ... it was trying to unload Joe Borowski. I offered a bagel but balked at giving up a ham sandwich. It wanted to keep Westbrook.
You know exactly what I’m going to suggest.
by supermarioelia on Apr 27, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
No no, the mandatory reading for new LGTers.
by supermarioelia on Apr 27, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
well, I’d say i know about 75% of it—sorry, i haven’t been in the minors since my relief near-perfect game (snicker, snicker)
The Disabled List just called ... it was trying to unload Joe Borowski. I offered a bagel but balked at giving up a ham sandwich. It wanted to keep Westbrook.
No it wasn’t anything personal, it’s just amusing how often the same questions come up.
by supermarioelia on Apr 27, 2008 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
The ninth inning might be a good time for Victors first home run of the season.
Il faut d'abord durer.
i need the braves to score 5 runs
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 3:48 PM EDT reply actions
i wish masa would strike more people out
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 3:51 PM EDT reply actions
What was Masa doing on that pop-up?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 27, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Another good Masa outing. Circle of Trust?
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:54 PM EDT reply actions
I’d say he was in the CoT a few days ago.
by supermarioelia on Apr 27, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Where’s Sandy Alomar, Jr. when you need him?
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:56 PM EDT reply actions
3 run home run, someone
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 3:56 PM EDT reply actions
Rivera is extremely tough on lefties. I don’t see Sizemore pinch-hitting for anyone short of Michaels.
Tough call.
Garko is the more intuitive hitter.
Peralta more likely to send it out, also is immune to pressure.
No, he took a good cut at a good pitch.
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
i am nervous
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 4:01 PM EDT reply actions
Please post this on the clubhouse door…....
STOP FUCKING LOOKING AT STRIKE 3.
P.s. ITS DOWN THE FUCKING MIDDLE.
How many looking Ks were there today? Jesus.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 27, 2008 4:02 PM EDT reply actions
discontentment
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 4:02 PM EDT reply actions
Time to go to work
One day I'll get over to watch the Tribe play
by new zealand tribe fan on Apr 27, 2008 4:02 PM EDT reply actions
Really? I just looked at it again and it looked right down the pipe to me
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
If you were to say to Jahonny and Garko I will through you a fastball right in the wheelhouse, they would look for exactly those pitches. Except why hit a homer when you could look? It hought the rule was, anything close with 2 strikes you swing.
Disappointed by the Indians since 1995.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Apr 27, 2008 4:03 PM EDT reply actions
Well … at least we don’t have to hear about the streak anymore (after another 100 mentions in the next 24 hours).
Now if we can only figure out how to make Mastny not from Indonesia.
It’s ok. You’re right. I just rewatched the whole AB. You’re just too fucking rational when we lose these games. Entire offense anemic all day. Can’t expect to win ball games that way. And I also love JP.
by Denver Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not all that rational, I’m just watching on two separate tracks, one for method and one for result. I’m desperate for the right result, but I (think I) know when I’ve see a right method. Totally pissed about the game, but I’m pretty satisfied that we got a good effort out of Victor and Jhonny there.
Remember that game where Hafner got the walk-off RBI with a broken-bat dribbler down the 3B line, the defenders all shifted over to the right? We were all like, THAT WAS AWESOME, including me, but we weren’t like, HAFNER IS AMAZING.
So here’s the flip side … game lost … it totally sucks … but Jhonny doesn’t suck. He gave us a good AB as he usually does.
i love aaron laffey. no joke.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 27, 2008 4:06 PM EDT reply actions
Yankees had seven players in today’s lineup hitting better than .256.
Indians had seven players in today’s lineup hitting worse than .256.
Hitting? You’re giving us batting average?
Let’s get some walk rates and BABIP in there. Batting average is meaningless without context.
Six looking. On four of those, the first pitch was strike looking:
AbaCab and Gootz - low expectations for selectivity.
Blake - nothing new here.
Garko—immune from criticism.
The other two:
Hafner: Ball, Ball, Strike looking, Foul, Hafner struck out looking. Can’t hit much anymore, but you can’t really fault the AB.
Peralta: Ball, Ball, Foul, Strike swinging, Foul, Foul, Peralta struck out looking. Held back on two balls, swung at four strikes, got yelled at anyway.
hafner death-watch? would anyone eat that contract? just askin’
my helmet has, like, no pine tar on it.
Please don’t post this nonsense ever again.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 27, 2008 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
hey man, i’m willing to be wrong (often), but i thought that was a pretty non-threatening probe.
my helmet has, like, no pine tar on it.
I’m with you here dude. I’m pretty sure you’re allowed to fantasize on this site. It’s like me nailin’ Heidi Kloss – ain’t gonna happen but we can all dream.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Ugh. fine, I apologize; but talking about dumping contract on one of our best players seems pretty foolish to me.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 27, 2008 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Is there a point you feel you have not yet made about this?
I think perhaps the amount of chest-beating you’ve done is bordering on glee. Hafner might have devolved into a bum, but he’s still our bum, and there’s no point thumping on that drum all day long, is there?
You’re right it is tiresome. But I think that hanging on to the idea that Hafner is still an elite talent is delusional. We need to seperate.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
An elite talent? I don’t think anyone still thinks he’s an elite talent.
But here’s this.
Last 150 games, worst of Hafner’s career by far.
He’s got a .359 OBP and 21 HR. I cite these simply because they’re the most important simple stats.
His walk rate is .120 and his BABIP is .283. I cite these because the excellent walk rate is mostly skill-based and the weak BABIP is mostly luck-based.
There’s another big-league hitter, first baseman, with a .361 OBP and 21 HR over his last 150 games.
This other guy’s walk rate is .075 - kind of lousy - and his BABIP is .315—perhaps a bit lucky.
This other guy is of course Ryan Garko. And I could spin the whole argument around to Garko, he had more HBP and a lot fewer GIDP and K, and he actually was getting a lot more extra-base hits than Hafner with 50 points higher slugging … but then again, Hafner ends up with 95 RBI to Garko’s 69, which is kind of a big difference …
But these things, they’re details. Details that give a clear answer as to who’s had the better 150 games—yes. But they don’t signify a big difference between the two players.
When you’ve got two guys with the same OBP and the same number of HR over the same number of games … they aren’t all that different.
But here’s a big difference. One guy over the previous 400 games was very possibly the greatest hitter in the world, with no serious argument for anyone else but Bonds or Pujols. And over those same 400 games, the other guy wasn’t even one of the best hitters in Triple-A.
Think about it.
And we’re paying one guy $383,100 and the other guy $8,050,000 to put up those numbers. One guy is on his way up and the other guy is on his way down. Think about that.
Here’s what you get for your eight mil:
.226/.324/ .366
Here’s what you get for less than 400k
.233 / .327 / .378
I’ll take the second guy and pocket the seven mill.
We play in the here and now. What’s past is past. It’s the future – the 08 ALCS and the WS that I’m concerned about. Let somebody else pay for Hafner’s brillant past performance – cuz we sure as hell can’t afford it.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
And just to smack this moribund equine one more time. I don’t blame Hafner for the Indians predicament. I believe he’s working as hard as he can to turn this thing around. I blame Shapiro, and make no mistake I’m a Shapiro fan. Which only compounds my angst. How the hell could one of the best GMs in baseball be so wrong?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Willful suspension of disbelief. Plus, the extent of Hafner’s collapse is unprecedented—Kent Hrbek to the contrary.
Here check this guy out. My favorite Hafner comp.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
When you’re playing with tens of millions of dollars, yes somebody’s gotta be accountable. Shapiro’s probably makin’ a coupla mega-bucks a year. He damn well be better at managing a baseball club than I’d ever dream of bein’. In this one instance he’s not.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
let’s say granted, but you said it yourself, “we play in the here and now.” now, i’m not really arguing with you, i’m just saying.
my helmet has, like, no pine tar on it.
You’re right of course. We can’t undo the contract and I keep hoping against hope that Hafner will become Pronk again. But I need to be focusing on the doughnut and not the hole.
Hey, I hear this guy Lee is doin’ much better than expected. Ya know anything about that?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Not to be a homer, but seriously, have you watched Hafner hit the last two weeks? I have seen him absolutely ROPE the ball in half of his outs. That BABIP figure may be a little unlucky, but I’ll take the at-bats he’s been having this year. Eventually they will turn into hits.
Is he going to hit 310+ again over the year? Maybe not. Is he going to exceed last years numbers? Absolutely.
I feel Hafner is somewhere between his monster 05-06 self and his disappointing 2007 showing.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 27, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I just question you: What is Shapiro supposed to do? Are you questioning signing Hafner to the monster contract, which he damn well earned, midway through last year. You will argue back that he had a weak first half, which he did. But I would love to try and find the person that after seeing his numbers in 2006 wouldn’t sign him long term?
Do you want Hafner released? Do you want him traded? C’mon man, we’re 25 games into a 162 game season. Ryan Howard is hitting a pathetic .174 right now and he’s a former MVP. I think Pronk finds his stride sooner before later and then we can focus on the true problem of this team, corner outfield positions.
You want to talk money let’s talk about David Dellucci who is making 3 mil and I’m pretty sure i can walk faster than he can run. This point can be proven by looking at the tape of David Ortiz plopping a bloop single into DEEP LEFT and setting Manny up for a huge 2 run blast. We can also talk about Michaels 2 million dollar salary and the fact that he’s hitting .174, but he was never close to an MVP candidate.
People need to stay off Pronk’s back, he’ll hit his stride and Ben Fran will slide into the lineup and start to hit and give the offense a boost. Sorry if this post sounded angry, it wasn’t I just get frustrated when people give up on someone who hit like he did in 2006…...this guy isn’t Andrew Jones people, he’s actually got determination and commitment to the game.
by Tribe_Hippie on Apr 28, 2008 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Dude … you are way off base.
Chuck is saying that Hafner didn’t have to be extended at that time, for that kind of money. We already had him under contract through the end of this season (2008), so we could have waited to see how (if) he bounced back from his rough couple of months. If we do that, there’s no need to trade or release him; it’s more of a wait-and-see approach. Signing him to an extension 1.5 seasons before free agency was, in a way, a high-risk-high-reward move, which is not usually Shapiro’s style.
Dellucci is actually making more like $4 million, and he is not slow. He actually has above-average range among LF, not that that’s saying much.
Francisco is unlikely to give the lineup a boost. He has only ever slugged .500 at one level, in short-season rookie ball in 2002. Dellucci has slugged over .500 several times in the majors—1999, 2005 and 2006. And by the way, Dellucci is slugging .521 in the majors right now, while Francisco is slugging .253 in Triple-A.
So … maybe you haven’t really thought this stuff through.
A note of optimism. Another good start; Indians pitching has been solid to outstanding for almost two weeks (since last CC disaster). And, they’ve won the majority of those games, despite erratic, often non-existent hitting, despite Garko’s recent slump, despite Hafner’s woes, and so on. This doesn’t mean we’re okay, but it’s the basis of a good season—IF they can improve their offense somewhat. Why not bat Victor third? Worth a try.
Seems to me that Wedge did precisely this sort of tinkering around June/July last season, and then he reached a point where he just said, screw this, I like the way the lineup flows with Grady/whoever/Hafner/Victor, so that’s what I’m sticking with.
Whether Hafner is 3rd or 6th is not terribly significant, even if it means Garko if 5th rather than 3rd.
Something else occurs to me, and I admit right off that this is just off the top of my head and may not make any sense …
Wedge doesn’t want pitchers working around Victor to get to somebody else batting 4th, Hafner or whoever. He wants them to have to be careful with Hafner, often putting him on first if it’s open, which it often is given the speed/power coming off of 9-1-2. And then they have to deal with Victor. Hafner is more likely to take a walk, and Victor is more likely to get a hit. You want the hit following the walk, not the other way around.
Yes, that’s a good point; they ARE afraid of Victor, so that helps Hafner. I just worry that standing pat when things aren’t going well won’t work. I don’t think it would hurt to shuffle the deck a little (even just for a game or two), just to see what happens (especially if the offense continues to sputter).
In the end, it’s probably true that the big guys have to produce: that means Sizemore, Hafner, Martinez, Garko and probably Peralta. So far, all of those guys (except perhaps Victor, and even his power and walk numbers are down) have been spotty—Sizemore is really important. When he gets to second base, it really seems to spark things. I think they missed him today, which is not a knock on Dellucci.
Well, that was certainly an interesting duel to watch, though I hate losing these damned things 1-0 (especially taking some of the awful swings we took).
Almost as bad as the end result: being partially surrounded by shrieking NY fans. The three seated next to us were at least charming in their friendly obnoxiousness (if you get my drift) while the guy seated in front of us was exactly the kind of Yankees fan I loathe: “I sure hope Sizemore’s ankle is okay. It’s really gonna hurt this team when we get him! Ha haa!” Etc.
--
Right now, I'll take .500 and run. I'm a cheap happy.
"I sure hope Sizemore’s ankle is okay. It’s really gonna hurt this team when we get him! Ha haa!"
Yeah, the Yankees figure to be tough in 2013.
So you out on bail after breaking one of those ass holes jaws or what?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
I seriously just had a shudder run down my spine. That is classic yankee fan 101, right there.
Ugh.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
by Gradysmanldy on Apr 27, 2008 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I say we blame Shapiro and crew for the Haf signing, as long as we fully credit him for all the fine work he’s done. Comparing this FO to the reigns of Segui or Lane is insulting. There isn’t a GM in the game that hasn’t made his fair share of bonehead moves. We are lucky to have these guys as well as Phil Savage. This market doesn’t have the economic vitality, but we have more brainpower where it counts than most markets.
Haf has only himself to blame for spoiling us. What a beauty he was in his day.
And if it appears that I compared Shapiro to Seghi – you must be referring to me, cuz I’m the only guy on the planet that mis-spells his name like that – I apologize. I think what I said was a coupla more Hafner deals and he’ll be approaching Seghi territory. Sorry for the confusion.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
I think what I said was a coupla more Hafner deals and he’ll be approaching Seghi territory.
Yes … and even saying that is total nonsense.
The Indians are going to continue to maintain a core, if they can, of young, cheap players that collectively make $50-60 million. We are going to contend with that team, plus a few spare-parts additions. That’s $70 million. Done.
We soon will be spending $80-90 million, but what production we’ll get for those extra $20 million will be minimal compared to what we’re getting from the core group.
We signed Hafner and Westbrook, and both have had their problems already. If they continue to have problems - Westbrook’s health, Hafner’s injury - and if we then sign Sabathia, and he too has problems, you know what we’ll have then?
I’ll tell you what: a team that still can win 80-85 games, possibly more, which is far better than anything Seghi ever accomplished.
The big-money deals are simply not the big-impact part of the GM game. Not for a small market team, and not for a smart organization.
See you forgot to factor in the economic realities Phil was dealing with. Not only was the revenue at the time in the shitter but the owner couldn’t possibly add any cash into the operation. If you’ve read your Pluto – that’s Terry and not the Disney character, they’re hard to keep seperate – you’d know that the financial situation during Seghi’s tenure under Ted Bonda was way past awful. According to Pluto often on away trips the team bus would hafta drive arround town until they found a hotel that would take their clubs purchase orders. Making monthly payroll back then was a regular Perils of Pauline nail-biter. Shapiro has never lacked for resouces. Not for facilities, not for player salaries, not for scouts or any other infra-structural expenses. Seghi had to deal with many more micro-expense issues than any GM after the Jacobs brothers bought the team. And Seghi was the Oakland Athletics farm director from ‘69 until ‘71 and help sign and develop much of the talent that dominated the American League in the ‘70s.
In short, while we tend to paint every body in sports as either a hero or a goat, Phil Seghi had some talent as a baseball man. He may not have been Cy Slapnicka but I believe he know more about baseball than anyone on this website – even me and you.
But if Shapiro were to saddle the Indians with two or three more Hafneresque contracts – I doubt that he will since Mr. Dolan’s paid $57M worth of tuition for Mark to learn that lesson – that’s $45-60M worth of ballast for this team to drag around. I know it ain’t gonna happen, but if it did it would take Hank Greenberg hisself to get us outta that mess.
In short Jay it was just a little hyperbole for comedic relief. Don’t take it so seriously. Like I told you before, we’ve got more impact on world peace than we do how the Indians are run. They ain’t readin none of this stuff.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
You’ve confused me, Chuck. Wasn’t it you that brought up Seghi as a negative comparison to Shapiro? And now you are eloquently defending him as a man of baseball knowledge. Why didn’t you use someone whom you feel lacked baseball knowledge as your negative comparison to Shapiro?
That’s the complexity in all of this. We cannot possibly know all of the details involved in running a major league baseball club. But here’s what I believe. I believe that every player in the major leagues is an extraordinarily gifted athlete and, independent of his origins, has over come enormous odds to get there. I believe that they all most perform at an almost super-human level to succeed in the major leagues. I believe that even guys like Jamie Carroll and Hector Luna are gifted baseball players. To be an All-Star or a Hall of Fame baseball player is an extraordinary achievement. I respect the talent and tenacity of every player – every player – in a major league uniform. Including the Yankees. But do I criticize players for their gaffs? Sure, it’s part of being a fan. So if I say that Tony Pena Jr. is a bum I’m not saying he has no athletic skills. I’m saying that he’s failing to compete on a major league level – certainly no disgrace.
Similarly if I tell you that Gabe Paul was a lousy GM I’m not saying he didn’t know anything about baseball – although I’m sure if I could go back and play the tapes I’d probably find a quote of me saying exactly that. Gabe Paul spent his entire life around baseball and professional baseball players. He probably literally forgot more about baseball than I could ever know. And he doubtless directed the Indians under extremely adverse circumstances – much like the aforementioned Phil Seghi. But the results speak for themselves – a string of second divisions finishes, bad trades, a barren player development system and a team on the verge of moving out of town. But put Gabe Paul in New York with the Yankees resources and he’s a World Champion.
To be a successful Cleveland Indians GM you’ve gotta be not just good but extraordinary and flawless – don’t forget flawless. If your Brian Cashman you can sign a coupla bad $10M contracts – that doofus Steinbrenner might posture and bellow – but you’ll still have the resource to sign the extra pieces it takes to win a pennant. Don’t worry there’s more money where that came from. You saddle the Cleveland club with one of those long term $15M+ deals and we may not finish above .500 in a year or two.
So I’m not saying that Mark Shapiro’s not a brilliant baseball man. What I’m saying is that the jury’s still out on whether he’s brilliant enough to bring a World Championship to Cleveland.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Interesting take.
I would argue, however, that unlike being a big-league ballplayer, it is eminently possible to become a big-league GM without any particularly high level of talent for the game (of being a GM). I think a GM’s performance is a lot harder to scout or to quantify, and the nature of the job is that the results are borne out over many years anyway.
I think that becoming a GM has a lot to do with being able to sell yourself to ownership and not much to do with raw performance. That is much less true today than it was 20 years ago, or even 10, as the industry has become even more professionalized, but then again, Ed Wade and Bill Bavasi still have jobs. There’s a lot of “good baseball men” running around out there, but few of them have the skills to be an effective GM. A lot of them should have remained pure talent evaluators or coaches.
As an aside, I found myself on the opposite side of this debate when Paul DePodesta was fired from the Dodgers job. DePodesta had come up through the Indians front office and gotten hired away by the A’s, where he gained a reputation as possibly the best pure data analyst working for any team. The 2002 A’s draft, as dramatized in Moneyball, was basically run off an Excel sheet on his laptop. Anyway, he got hired away by the Dodgers, who are mired in one of these petulant idiot owner situations, and a couple years later, they fired him. The moves he made seemed to be working, but he offended Dodger traditionalists by doing things like trading away chemistry for talent, and eventually the owners believed whatever nonsense Lasorda was whispering in their ears.
DePodesta became a sore subject for the hardcore stat guys, but I basically felt that he deserved to be fired. The GM job is a BIg Chair, and you can’t just have Some Talent for making the business and baseball decisions, you have to have talent for dealing with ownership and the media, and for earning the respect of those you lead. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that DePodesta didn’t have Big Chair talent and no real evidence that he did. Ricciardi, Epstein, Shapiro are all guys who are going to insist on hard-core data analysis, just like DePodesta, but they also have a grip on their ownership and media situations, and all three have faced significant challenges in those areas.
Anyway, that just as a counter-example. Getting back to the Indians, I don’t think any GM is ever going to be flawless, but just as with players on the field, you can focus on having a good approach, even if the result isn’t always brilliant. A player can make a mistake in an instant, but a GM never should, because he always has time to consider carefully whether a deal really fits into his basic ideas of what a good deal looks like. The GM essentially should hit line drive after line drive in almost every at-bat, while understanding that a lot of those line drives aren’t gonna fall for hits anyway, and occasionally, he might even line into a double-play.
I believe the Haf signing is a symptom of a much larger issue. The decision to pre emptively sign young talent is a cost cutting strategy which assumes additional risk. It’s not a magic formula for success. The Dolans and the Cleveland market have effectively painted Shapiro into a fiscal corner where he is forced to take on added risks. But, let’s go down the road where we take a wait and see attitude on Haf and he regains his previous form. The Dodgers are ready to dangle a $90M 6 yr deal in front of him in 6 months. What is the fan reaction after losing Thome, Ramirez, CC and other established players? These pre emptive signings are desperation strategies by smaller markets to “get lucky” and compete with larger markets. Yeah, Shapiro put a bunch of chips out on the table, but if you expect him to win every hand, it becomes a tantrum atmosphere.
Chuck,
You’re not sure he’s “brilliant enough to bring a World Championship to Cleveland?”
He was brilliant enough to do it last year, no? I know that it’s okay to be results-oriented when we’re talking about, you know, results, but I think we can both agree that Shapiro guided that team to the very, don’t-look-down edge. Once there, it was up to the players, who had three shots to put away the Sox. And given my irrational condescension toward the NL, it was Title Time if CC or Fausto or Game 7 offense shows up.
But put Gabe Paul in New York with the Yankees resources and he’s a World Champion.
As long as his sidekick Seghi was in Cleveland, feeding him players.
Well, to be fair, Gabe was brilliant enough to be high bidder for Reggie Jackson and Catfish Hunter. Great baseball man.
I won’t debate Gabe Paul’s career with you, although I will note the whole blind nut and the squirrel thing … whatever that is.
Anyway, I was talking about this lunacy about Seghi being a great evaluator.
I’ll admit to being a little irrational on the subject of Gabe Paul, but I grew up in Cincinnati, then Cleveland, and Gabe always seemed to be destroying the local team (though it hardly felt that way in post-Lane Cleveland).
Anyway, Gabe gets credit for developing an excellent farm system in Cincinnati, especially the pipelines to the Caribbean and to McClymonds High (Robinson, Pinson, Flood). But his ML trades were horrendous and it took Bill DeWitt to remake the Reds into contenders in the 60s.
Seghi was his deputy in those days. I have no idea how important he was in scouting and player development. I don’t think he was in collusion on the Chambilss and Nettles deals, just always assumed he was even dumber than Gabe.
Then again, Gabe has something in common with Casey Stengel – success with the Yankees, failure everywhere else.
Last night’s game is over. No one is reading this.
i read every post on LGT, so me too
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 29, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Hafner’s driving me nuts too, but I think we need to take a step back. He hasn’t hit well at all this year, but neither has Garko (particularly lately), or really anyone else on the team (except for Victor). Is Hafner’s big contract the only (or even the main) reason the team’s not running away with the division? I don’t think so—early on, we had pitching issues (CC, Byrd, bad bullpen); more recently, the team’s collective (not just Hafner’s) hitting has obscured some really good pitching. I’m still fairly optimistic, especially since the pitching seems to have settled in.
I don’t know if Hafner can become a significant power hitter again (I’m pretty sure he’s not going to become the Hafner of old, but I’ll take a watered down version of that); but, it would matter a lot less if some of the other guys on the team would start to hit a bit better. In fact, that would help Hafner out too, since right now, the whole stadium expects him to carry a team which doesn’t seem to be able to hit much.
On a completely different note, does anyone else think Wang was getting some ridiculous strike calls today? I know the Indians hitters agree with the sentiment based on the amount of dirty looks they gave the home plate ump….lots of high/off the corner pitches called for strikes today.
"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"
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