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Game Twenty-Seven: Mariners 7, Indians 2

400px-coconut_cream_pie_tiny by Ryan on in Game Recaps

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via www.fangraphs.com


Highest WPA Lowest WPA
Grady Sizemore .230 Rafael Betancourt -.461
David Dellucci .230 Jhonny Peralta -.288
Fausto Carmona .117 Andy Marte -.126

The Indians have been impersonating an NL team for a couple weeks now: bunting early and often, relying on one or two guys to actually hit for power, and praying that the pitching staff gives them a chance to win scoring two or three runs. We can discuss how Rafael Betancourt blew the game in the ninth, but the root cause of this stinking morass of an April starts and ends with the offense. The power isn't there (12th in AL SLG), and the on-base is below average (8th). No regular is slugging over .500, and only three regulars have an OBP over .350. This plodding lineup is currently hitting like light-hitting smallballers, obviously not a good combination.

As to tonight's game, Fausto Carmona didn't pitch that well, but his stuff is such that even when he's not throwing strikes he can get outs by virtue of the movement on his pitches. He's walked, including tonight, 26 in just over 34 innings. How he's only given up 12 runs in those innings is testament to both stuff and luck. And while his stuff should remain consistent, luck won't; allowing that many baserunners, even considering his ability to induce the double play, will eventually catch up to him.

I guess one of the positives of tonight's game was that we got to see Andy Marte again. It took Ryan Garko going into a major slump to get him a start, though.  Counting tonight, he's made 16 plate appearances in 27 team games, which is not doing any interested party any good. Andy doesn't get regular at-bats, he obviously can't go down to AAA (not that that would accomplish anything anyway), so he's in an overwhelmingly difficult position. The front office isn't going to learn anything one way or the other, which will put them in a quandry when they have to make a decision about third base in the offseason.

 

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WPA WP-shmay. Give ‘em what-fer, Andy.

by fleerdon on Apr 30, 2008 12:26 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

I’m going to put in my vote for David Dellucci as the positive offensive surprise of the early going. I like him in the 2 hole and his .871 OPS looks very Dellucci-like. It’s good to see him producing the way we thought he would when he was signed.

How’s that for finding a silver lining in the awfulness that is our offense?

by JesseAK on Apr 30, 2008 2:18 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

I'd just like to say . . .

Booo . . . Booooooooooo!!

Boring!!

Sorry . . . I needed a little ballpark catharsis . . . feel free to join in . . . booooooooo.

by DocNo on Apr 30, 2008 5:55 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

It is true that it’s much more interesting, cathartic and even fun to watch Brodzoski blow up than Betancourt.

by Jay on Apr 30, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Heh. I was thinking along these exact lines earlier. Watching anyone else blow up on the mound just isn’t the same, is it?

--
Right now, I'll take .500 and run. I'm a cheap happy.

by vbc3 on Apr 30, 2008 6:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

This team is incredibly boring right now.

"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"

by Gradysmanldy on Apr 30, 2008 7:00 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

My self-suspension has come and gone. Looks like nothing has changed in that time

by Roger Dorn on Apr 30, 2008 8:17 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

These are the days I wish we had a day game. Nothing really positive to think about and the chance of an afternoon win can erase all of those ill feelings.

by Toxicadam on Apr 30, 2008 8:30 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Absolutely right about Marte—he needs to play regularly so they can find out if he’s a legitimate 3rd baseman with power (as they’d hoped). They’re not going to learn that playing him once every ten days (usually against a tough right-handed pitcher).

Following up on that, I think Franklin Gutierrez’ season thus far is instructive. He’s looked awful at times, and has not been very selective, but he has begun to hit with greater consistency in the last week or so, illustrating that sometimes it pays to stick with a young player and give him a chance to show what he can do. Give Marte regular AB’s for a few weeks and see what happens. At worst, it would clear a roster spot if he stinks it up.

In the end, though, the problem is in the middle of the line-up. Everyone’s on Hafner, correctly, but it’s also Garko, and Peralta (despite some good stretches), and Victor’s power outage. Take the Yankees and have Abreu, Rodriguez, Matsui and Giambi hit poorly with almost no power numbers and you have a bad offensive team, no matter what Cano, Jeter, Damon and Cabrera do. I honestly don’t know what the Indians can do to jump start their key hitters—maybe it’ll just take a good game from one of them to awaken the others (Peralta’s good game against the Yankees didn’t do it, though). I suggested flipping Martinez and Hafner in the order, but Jay’s probably right that that just exposes Hafner even more. Still, if Martinez got the chance to hit with Dellucci and Sizemore on base and no one out, it might produce an extra run or two. I think they have to try something pretty soon, because this is starting to become a pattern (I know, small sample size, but the sample is growing larger).

I still like their pitching, though, so not all is lost.

by peter m on Apr 30, 2008 9:23 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

I wonder if victors hamstring (that was what he injured the first game of the season…right?) is limited his power.

by tyler083 on Apr 30, 2008 9:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yes, I’ve wondered the same thing (and they’ve indicated it’s still not 100% when they explained why they’ve limited his appearances at 1B)

by peter m on Apr 30, 2008 10:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Sixth – bat Hafner sixth not fourth. That won’t expose anybody.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Apr 30, 2008 12:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

The 2 errors really didn’t help, either. Even though, as a surprise to me we were 3rd in defense going into last night’s game.

by emd2k3 on Apr 30, 2008 10:04 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Not a terrible outing for Fausto, but I’m still very concerned about that 1:2 K:BB ratio. Also, a lot of fingers are being pointed at people in the lineup, but no one has really mentioned Sizemore’s power drought. What’s going on there?

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Apr 30, 2008 10:27 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Grady is the ultimate team player, he doesn’t want to show anybody up.

Pure class, that guy.

by Toxicadam on Apr 30, 2008 10:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Grady’s OBP is actually above his career average, so he’s been doing a good job of getting on base (I was worried about his walk rate early on, but that’s gotten much better). He had a couple of doubles last night, as I recall, so I think he’ll be fine. I hope the same thing is true for Victor (who also has basically hit pretty well, but with not much power). That hamstring may be the problem there, as was pointed out earlier.

by peter m on Apr 30, 2008 10:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

To his credit, Grady had a nice doubles stroke going yesterday.

by CBusSteve on Apr 30, 2008 11:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Off-topic, but the shine has really come off that Cueto kid. 7.48 ERA and batters hitting .295 against him in the past 4 games.

The struggles of all these young pitchers should really make you appreciate guys that perform well at the big league level. With the inflated numbers you see in video games and fantasy baseball .. we begin to have unreal expectations of players on our favorite teams

by Toxicadam on Apr 30, 2008 10:52 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

How about Mr. Phillip “THE NEXT COMING OTHER THAN JOBA” Hughes. ERA of 9. oooooof

by gte619n on Apr 30, 2008 10:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Neither of those guys has faced the Indians, of course.

by peter m on Apr 30, 2008 10:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Something just occurred to me. Is witnessing the disappearance of one Mr. Travis “Pronk” Hafner the first traditionally “Cleveland” thing I’ve seen with this franchise? If so, this is certainly a rite of passage for me. (refresher for those who don’t remember: I outed myself as a 19-year old earlier)

by Voltaire on Apr 30, 2008 11:57 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Chuck Nagy went down with a thud. Other than that, and that’s not really close – you’re right. Hafner’s probably the most precipitous drop in the last 20 years. Oh yeah, Charboneau, but he never really approached Pronk’s numbers. Nope ya got me. Hafner’s fall has been Biblical.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Apr 30, 2008 12:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I guess you could call what happened to my fave, Carlos Baerga, an example of a precipitous fall by and Indian (primarily after Hart unloaded him), but that would fuel Chuck’s argument that locking up Hafner was an error, so I won’t go there!!

by peter m on Apr 30, 2008 12:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I don’t know what you are defining as “Cleveland.” Did you join us after the ‘94-’01 era?

by Roger Dorn on Apr 30, 2008 12:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I am referring to the stereotypical whining a Clevelander does about how all the sports teams suck and always have the worst things happen to them.

by Voltaire on Apr 30, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

When it’s the truth, it’s not whining. Generally, bad, fluky things have happened to Cleveland teams to keep them from winning the big ones.

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Apr 30, 2008 3:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Dude name of Ray Chapman had an abrupt end to his Indians career. His BA really dropped off after 1920.

by odradek on Apr 30, 2008 12:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I would say both the last-week-of-2005 collapse and losing three straight clinching games in the ALCS both qualify as classic Cleveland sports disasters. Hell, they both might make the top 10.

I guess you’re not counting stuff from before your teens?

by Jay on Apr 30, 2008 1:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Right, I’m talking stuff I’ve lived through as a “conscious” baseball fan. I was basically just a lil’ tyke for most of the 90s.

by Voltaire on Apr 30, 2008 2:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

In the AL since 2000, there is usually one team that rises from below .500 in April to make the post-season.
Yankees, Twins, and A’s have each done it twice. In 2004, nobody did it.

In 2008, the Indians and Tigers both have this chance. Will either or both do it?

by palcal on Apr 30, 2008 11:58 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Everyone knew that barring injury, this is how it was going to play out for Marte in April. Marte will only play if Garko, Blake or Hafner gets hurt. Why the hand wringing? He will stick around possibly all season in this role.

by oxforddave on Apr 30, 2008 12:45 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

I guess the hand wringing is about the fact that we don’t know what we have in him—is he a stiff with a bad attitude or is he a good third baseman with power? They’re not going to find out by playing him as little and as inconsistently as they have. Since he’s been touted as the future at that position, I for one would like to see him play a bit, especially since the team isn’t hitting much anyway. At least that way they’ll know whether they need to make a deal for another third baseman in the near future.

by peter m on Apr 30, 2008 12:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I think we need to decide who we like more, Barfield or Marte. If we like Barfield better, then we should play a permanent shift with no 3B and either 2 2B (AstroCab and Barfield) or 2 SS (Peralta and AstroCab). Then no one has to change positions and we don’t need to trade for another 3B.

Problem solved!

by Nat on Apr 30, 2008 1:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I didn’t know it. I had read somewhere that the Indians would try to get Marte some 400 AB this season, which suggests at least 2-3 starts per week plus occasional pinch-hitting. He’s about 44 AB behind that pace so far, and I wasn’t expecting many of his AB to be at Garko or Victor’s expense (with Blake playing 1B), but rather Blake, Michaels and occasionally Gutierrez.

Well, at this point, Blake has 24 starts, Gutierrez has 23, Michaels has 15, and Marte has 4. That is not the distribution I was expecting, and it’s not like Michaels was hitting at all or Blake was looking good in the field, and Gutierrez really struggled for a couple weeks, too.

I didn’t notice that the Indians weren’t playing Blake in the outfield in Spring Training, or I might have realized that they weren’t thinking of Blake as an outfield option. That puzzling decision, more than anything, makes it “hard to get Marte at bats,” as only a protracted struggle from Blake or Garko - both of whom are given immense slack based on their intangibles - can open up playing time.

by Jay on Apr 30, 2008 1:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Are you sure you read about the promised 400 at-bats or was that just wishful thinking on our (LGT’s) part? Not trying to being snarky, just wondering if you were thinking of a particular article you read.

And you know I’m not a huge marte fan, but even I think it’s a damn shame the way they’ve screwed him so far this year. Especially the way we’re “hitting.”

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Apr 30, 2008 1:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Coming into this season, isn’t it reasonable to expect that Marte and Blake would perform roughly equally, if both received 550 PAs this season? Furthermore, isn’t it also true that Marte’s eventual ceiling is significantly higher than Blake’s, who is a known quantity and in an age-induced decline?

Or how about this: Has anyone asked Wedge this very question?

by tabler84 on Apr 30, 2008 1:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

surely not any media types i’ll tell you that.

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Apr 30, 2008 1:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

They did ask Blake why he shaved off his beard, though.

by peter m on Apr 30, 2008 2:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

What gets to me is that Marte has been singled out as undeserving of playing time.

Carroll and Shoppach have each gotten 9 starts to Marte’s 4, and again, Michaels with 15. Some of this is attributed to injuries, but most of it is just always playing the guys Marte is backing up rather than Marte, in contrast to the way Carroll has been treated. The players Carroll is backing up (2B-SS) are no better and have been no better than the ones Marte is backing up (1B-3B), and obviously Shoppach understudies for the best player of the bunch.

I think the failure to get Marte in the field definitely stands out both against expectations and against the way Wedge is treating the rest of his bench.

by Jay on Apr 30, 2008 2:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

You can chalk up most of Shoppach’s starts to Victor’s hamstring injury, though. Without that he’d probably be looking at 5 starts or so, which is about what I would expect out of him at this point. Your greater point still stands, though—I would much rather see Marte out there than Carroll, since we definitely know what we have with the 30-something year old career utility infielder vs. the 24 year old prospect.

Despite all of my best intentions, I have not, in fact, grown up to be a debaser.

by zempf on Apr 30, 2008 2:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yes, you might expect Shoppach to get only 5-6 starts barring an injury, but he’s backing up the best player in the lineup. Marte is not.

by Jay on Apr 30, 2008 2:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Carroll got several starts to give Peralta and especially Cabrera time to regroup and get themselves straightened out after a rough stretch. Wedge never seems to do that for Blake, who has even longer stretches of unproductiveness than anyone on the team it seems. I agree with you entirely—totally mystifying behavior by Wedge. It was amazing that Marte didn’t play either game of the double-header in KC.

by peter m on Apr 30, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Marte started the second game. He went 0 for 2 with, yes, a sacrifice bunt.

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Apr 30, 2008 3:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Sorry. You’re right. My memory failed me on that one.

by peter m on Apr 30, 2008 3:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

And then was removed for a pinch-hitter, right?

by Jay on Apr 30, 2008 6:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Personally, I would be very happy to not see anymore starts from Carroll or Michaels. But Carroll, Shoppach, and Michaels do things that Marte cannot that will get them more starts. Namely Carroll can play anywhere in the infield; Shoppach is a backup catcher and catching is very taxing; and Michaels can play all 3 outfield positions (one of which is a platoon, one is a young guy who gets days off, and one is a regular who was injured). Marte can play 3B. That is it. Also, everyday Marte plays 3rd it means Blake or Garko is benched (and Garko is benched not because Marte can play 1st, but that Blake can).

Well maybe Marte makes up for his lack of versatility with his lack of hitting. (This is a joke, I am not that down on Marte.) Marte could force his way into the liineup with some good games (ala Asdrubal last year), but he cannot seem to do this.

But really, it all comes down to Wedge, and he showed no propensity to play him before this year, why would he start playing him now? It will really take an injury, or continuous suck from Garko or Blake. Garko was doing great this year before he decided to hit pop-ups every time out.

by oxforddave on Apr 30, 2008 5:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Totally agree.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Apr 30, 2008 4:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yeah. I think I remember a reference to Delucci’s getting 400 AB, but I don’t remember any such assurance about Marte.

by ken from alexandria on Apr 30, 2008 2:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I did read it somewhere, though it may have been 350-400 or 300 or something like that. I believe the source was one of the Baseball America writers.

by Jay on Apr 30, 2008 3:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I remember the same thing in the off-season, with those hopes crashing down with this article from the Official Site.

Once I saw that, I knew that 400 AB was a pipe dream.

by The DiaTriber on Apr 30, 2008 4:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I think the projections were based on the Indians actually hitting the ball and being a winning ball team. All of those plans go out the window when 2/3 of your lineup is severely underperforming.

Much easier to slip Marte in the lineup when you are winning series and your big guys are performing well.

by Toxicadam on Apr 30, 2008 2:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Nonsense. Marte has lost playing time to guys who were/are contributing to the slide.

by Jay on Apr 30, 2008 3:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

“Losing” something would infer that you actually possessed something in the first place. When was Marte ever promised or granted anything? Was it owed him because of his horrible condition that he came into Fall ball with? Was it the horrible numbers he posted? Was it the lackluster Spring Training stats?

So, this idea that Marte was promised anything is merely fantasy among people who want their previous projections to have a chance to prove true.

by Toxicadam on Apr 30, 2008 3:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Who cares what Marte was promised? The argument is much more focused on what Marte ought to be getting, which is a chance to play. That argument is bolstered by the rather predictably weak performance from those in front of him.

If someone can dig up a FO or Wedge quote indicating that Marte would likely get several hundred at bats, all the better. But in the end, you ought to understand that Jay didn’t mean “lose” to have the meaning you’re ascribing it. Arguing about semantics is silly.

by tabler84 on Apr 30, 2008 3:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

“Ought to be getting” is purely speculative.

What alternate universe is it where the Indians play a young guy not hitting his weight in 08, underperforms in ALL of 07 (including Fall) and doesn’t fare so well in spring training over a veteran making 6 million dollars and performing to about his career average?

Look, you can argue the validity of that line of thinking .. but you know as well as I which way the wind blows in Cleveland. Franky G had to put up insane numbers before he began to take away Trot’s playing time.

So get back to me when Marte is actually performing better at the plate or in the field than Blake.

by Toxicadam on Apr 30, 2008 4:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

And he will be able to do this how by riding the bench?

by Voltaire on Apr 30, 2008 4:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Grady, Franky G, Asdrubal all found a way.

by Toxicadam on Apr 30, 2008 4:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Right, so the argument goes like this, then:

When Marte gets three or four starts in a row, he has to go crazy, tear the cover off the ball, and then we’ll get back to you. But only then, because otherwise he will have no shot.

by tabler84 on Apr 30, 2008 5:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

You got it. Welcome to the real world.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 1, 2008 12:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

This is 100% false.

Franky G. has never put up “insane numbers” anywhere beyond A-ball, nor has Garko for that matter. AbaCab did well in Double-A but certainly did not earn a major-league starting job. They “found a way” only by being the best available option when a massive hole in the lineup presented itself.

Look, I like Casey plenty, but he was an average everyday player at best in 2007, and well below average in the second half, and well below average right now. There’s nothing crazy about thinking Marte should have something more than 10% of the playing time.

by Jay on Apr 30, 2008 6:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I think you need to take a longer look at Casey Blake. Marte can do as good as Casey Blake offensively and better than Casey Blake defensively this season. Casey Blake offers two things at this point, and its P/PA and ability to field multiple positions. He takes a lot of pitches, the Indians as a team are second in the AL in P/PA and part of the philosophy is to work the counts and get to the middle relief of the other team early through high pitch counts. Blake does this as good as any of the other players. He can play 1st base and probably RF in a pinch (ironically RF is probably the best spot for him defensively) But beyond that, I don’t see anything he can do better than Marte, nor any reason to be giving those at-bats to Blake over Marte while Marte is litterally losing a full year of development sitting on the bench, damn maybe thats the new philosophy of the Indians with prospects that struggle at first, ruin them so that no one will be able to use them.

by hans on Apr 30, 2008 4:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

still learning the ins and outs of posting with italics

by hans on Apr 30, 2008 4:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Here type out the whole post, highlite what you wanna italicize (sp? I ain’t got time) and then hit the I button – easy.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 1, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Marte can do as good as Casey Blake offensively and better than Casey Blake defensively this season

But there is the rub … he has done NOTHING to indicate that this statement is true. Not just in 08 .. but ALL of 07 (minor leagues, spring training and fall ball included). There is NOTHING to hang your hat on .. the guy has big gaping holes in his swing and his easily fooled on breaking pitches away. He is a credible defender at 3b .. but not a guy that is definitively better than Blake. In the end, he shows no signs of IMPROVING or adapting.. which would indicate a guy that may be a bit dull on the edges or one that doesn’t want to put in the extra work.

Look, we have to be honest here. We are not San Diego .. we are not going to let a guy hit sub-200 for 2 1/2 months of the season while he is figuring it out. It maybe something we let happen in 02-04 .. but not now. This is a “win now” scenerio we are dealing with.

On a personal note, I want Marte to be in there more too .. but until he shows something ,,, it’s completely logical to keep him on the bench until our situation changes (either injury forces him in .. or the season takes a turn for the worse/better).

by Toxicadam on Apr 30, 2008 5:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs