Game Twenty-Eight: Indians 8, Mariners 3
by Ryan on May 1, 2008 1:14 AM EDT
in Game Recaps
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| Highest WPA | Lowest WPA | ||
| Cliff Lee | .235 | Kelly Shoppach | -.036 |
| Victor Martinez | .114 | Asdrubal Cabrera | -.030 |
| Grady Sizemore | .097 | Jason Michaels | -.029 |
Cliff Lee ran out of gas in the seventh inning, probably a result of a string of eight- and nine-inning appearances. But even though his final line denoted a disappointing three runs allowed, Cliff Lee still pitched very well. He continued to pound the strike zone, and while he only struck out three, he did not walk a batter.
Travis Hafner sat out tonight's game, and what looked like a very weak lineup ended up bouncing Mariner starter Jarrod Washburn in the fifth. Franklin Gutierrez collected two more hits; he's having an excellent homestand (9-for-23). The offense rapped out six extra-base hits. Ryan Garko, who still hasn't gotten a hit since April 22, nevertheless got on base twice. But Grady Sizemore was the star of the evening, hitting a home run, a double, and reaching base four times.
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Grady hit well the night before too. And, I think most people would take 6 innings of zeroes from Lee on a consistent basis (even if he can’t throw a CG shutout every time out!).
It was a great game to watch and a nice way to break the depressing streak they were in. A few comments on the game, though:
The Indians got production out of the 3-6 guys last night (although Ryan’s right that Sizemore was the spark/star of the offense). But, two of the regular core guys didn’t play—Hafner and Peralta. They’ll probably be back today, so let’s hope that the offense doesn’t revert to its previous pattern when the regulars are reinstated. It’ll be interesting to see if Wedge goes back to the lineup he had been using. My guess is he will.
Marte didn’t play (as usual). Nothing has changed on that front, apparently. I still can’t understand how they’re handling him.
Good relief pitching in a low pressure situation. In fact, good pitching generally, which I think remains the key to this team.
I dunno about today’s lineup. The ESPN recap of last night’s game had Wedge sounding pretty noncommittal about keeping the lineup the way it’s been.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
It’s entirely possible that Marte has been told that he will receive more PT when he reaches certain benchmarks in his workouts. And this could be subject to Blake’s being needed at other positions. And it could be subject to Cleveland dropping out of the race. I am not willing to discount the staff’s evaluation of Marte and his readiness to hit major league pitching.
All probably true. I’m just frustrated that they’ve unnecessarily placed themselves in the position of having a player on the roster they’re unwilling to use much, but are unable to shift. If the team were going great and the current incumbent at third were a great player, I’d be less concerned. But, neither of those things is really true, unfortunately.
How is it “probably true” that Marte has been told he will receive more PT when he reaches certain benchmarks in his workouts? Els, did you make this up out of thin air or did someone on the Tribe staff make a remark to this effect? Seems utterly silly to me.
We might as well say, “It’s entirely possible that they’re waiting for a player to suffer a life-ending injury first. And it’s entirely possible that Marte will have to bench press the team plane to prove himself. What do we know?
It’s entirely possible that Marte has been told that he will receive more PT when he reaches the kill screen in Donkey Kong.
HAND-EYE COORDINATION, ANDY!!!!
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
i figured someone would know the inspiration for that.
extremely well-done doc. the dvd extras were a good watch as well.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
Every version – every version – of that movies was awful.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Like I said, just watched Das Boat a few days ago – great movie with plenty of FX and CGI. But it also had a plot and characters and everything!
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
That really wasn’t the point of my retort. Besides Das Boat was released in 1981, couldn’t be alot of CGI in that.
Anyways, my snide remark was more along the lines of:
You said you refused to watch LotR because it was all CGI and no story. Well without watching it, I can’t understand how you could determine that it has no story/plotline (unless you read the novel), but that is an argument for another day.
Then you comment on how all the King Kong movies are awful. Based on that comment, my interpretation is that you actually watched Peter Jackson’s version of King Kong from 2005. Since Peter Jackson directed both LotR and King Kong, my disbelief is that since you wouldn’t watch LotR, why on earth would you watch his version of King Kong, knowing it would be heavily CGI.
Then if you didn’t watch the movie, and are single handedly just calling it awful makes you a hypocrite.
So which is it?
Ooh, good – Hobson’s Choice is it? Nope I haven’t had the stomach to actually sit through any of ‘em at one sitting. You know – flip to it for 5 minutes during a commercial break or something – catch two scenes while my kids’re watching it – like that. Probably haven’t seen all of any of ‘em. But I can identify crap when I see it – don’t really hafta eat a whole can of Spam to know it’s awful.
So label me however you want – I still think that it’s all a lot of bovine excrement.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Ok chuck … just yanking your chain. But I sure am glad Oscar voters don’t make their decisions on five minutes of a movie. Thats like determining how good an album is by 5 seconds of one album.
Guess we should just agree to disagree on movies.
I made this up out of thin air. I said it was entirely possible, as in plausible. I’m banking on mgmt that hopes for all of the short and long term rewards that we hope for. The insertion of Marte at 3rd seems so obvious to fans, therefore, some impediment to this probably exists. We may think that major league plate appearances will most foster Marte’s development, but mgmt must have some reason why this is not necessarily so. All I’m sayin is it’s too easy to use the “we smart, they dumb” reason and then sit back lazily satisfied.
Part of any good and fair analysis is conceding that you don’t have nearly the same bank of evidence and data that management does. I assume that we enter the debate with that in mind.
And part of the frustration is that barring some significant factor about which we know nothing (and it’s plausible that such a factor exists), there seems to be little strategic justification for the Blake / Marte situation.
Ahh the Nixon defense. You remember? “I got a secret plan.”
Nope sorry, ain’t goin’ for it. Results dude, results. If they mishandle Marte and eight months later he’s tearin’ it up for the Rockies then they screwed up. If he’s washin’ cars at Pearl and Ridge – they screwed up. If he’s playin’ a servicable third base, hell if he’s OBPing .320 and OPS 750 they’re pretty smart baseball guys. If he’s OPS 950 then they’re GD geniuses. Simple.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
So, to draw a parallel, if your son drops out of college, you’re a failure and if your son graduates from Princeton you are a genius. It doesn’t matter whether he’s born with an iq of 90 or 140, it’s all on how you raised him.
The result of Marte’s success or failure rests as much on his shoulders as mgmt’s. If Marte fails, perhaps mgmt did as well as they can, if he succeeds it may be despite his mishandling. The team has some kind of process that they believe in and hope that it yields the most positive results. It’s fun to believe that we, as super interested fans, can see benefits to a move that mgmt doesn’t. Maybe we can.
Well since I’ve gotta lot of control of my son’s environment, and I would like to believe I’ve influenced his character – yeah I’ve got a whole hell of lot of responsibility for how he does. I’m extraorinarily proud of him and what he’s done, but I know his mother’s got a lot more to do with that than me. But yeah, I’ll wear the jacket for that one.
But like Patty said we don’t know half of what’s goin’ on behind the scenes with the Indians. In every respect we’re spectators and like I told Jay, we’ve got more impact on world peace than impact on how the Indians are run. The only real data we have are the results. After all this isn’t spring board diving or ice dancing. This is an objective sport and you don’t win on style points – either you score more runs than the other guy and win or you don’t and you lose. Similarly you either acquire and develop good players and you win or you fail to amass superior talent and you lose.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
“entirely possible” = “not in any way un-possible”
by Jay on May 1, 2008 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it too simplistic to suggest that Wedge/FO have a “doghouse” and the only way to extract yourself out of there is through injuries or severe performance downslides to other players? For much of ‘07 there were guys that resided in that limbo state where they just collect cobwebs and were never used (even in situations where it might make sense).
I’d clarify that by specifying Wedge. I’d further posit that Shapiro et al are reluctant to mess with the clubhouse in any significant way, specifically how Wedge assigns roles and playing time.
As far as idle speculation goes, that’s a good topic. Why do you suppose it is that the Indians FO, the smartest in the game, doesn’t ever override Wedge’s decisions or force his hand?
Speaking from my own experience, there are roles where you have to trust in the person and the process, where overruling someone on one point or another ultimately does more harm than good.
I employ engineers and producers at my studio, and so while our clients by and large hire the studio (ultimately me) to produce their recordings, at some point I generally assign a specific person to be the Producer and/or principal engineer of a project. The majority of the time, I am not even in the room. I set things in motion, connect artists with highly capable people, and then step back. For those moments when I’m in the room, I disagree with lots and lots of the little details of what’s going on, but for the most part, I say nothing. I trust the professionals to do their jobs—after all, I picked them. If I was routinely over-ruling my staff, good records simply could not get made, because the relationship between the producer and recording artist is paramount to the process.
I think GM’s generally are in the same boat with their managers. They might expect to discuss usage patterns, but if a GM doesn’t fundamentally trust his manager well enough to just step back and let him do his job, then he’s got the wrong manager. My sense is that Shapiro feels not that Wedge does everything that he would do, but that Wedge is open to input from Shapiro and others, and grasps that input completely, and beyond that is in a better position than Shapiro to know who can bunt and who can’t, or whatever.
The manager might not do everything right, but managing the manager is probably a losing proposition. If the manager isn’t showed respect by the GM, how can the manager possibly command the respect of his players?
by Jay on May 1, 2008 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I tried for several minutes to spin a reply to this comment involving a ?uestlove joke and just couldn’t pull it off. Thoughtful post, though.
by fleerdon on May 1, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s “probably true” that it’s “entirely possible.”
Technically … that’s all that Peter M said.
by Jay on May 1, 2008 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
My sin was greater. I said probably true, although I was hedging my bets with the probably. I was persuaded to back off, too, once I thought about what others said. I actually think it’s unlikely, on reflection, that they’ve set some kind of “goal” for Marte that will earn him PT. I think they won’t play him unless the situation changes (i.e., if they decide Blake needs to sit, or if they decide they’re out of it and need to look to the future.).
Sizemore has a great day, but to me it is pretty clear that Lee was the star again. Six innings, no runs. He tired in the 7th but the game was already over.
I dunno about “already over.” That discounts Stomp, stomping.
by fleerdon on May 1, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, I admit: I don’t even know the context of this. I was only repeating what Brick said above. It was silly. Is there some deeper meaning that I don’t get and should have been aware of?
i’m confused
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on May 1, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
We gotta opening for a pipeline forman in Kazakstan, keep you pretty busy.
You like to travel and carry guns?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Nah, I’m mostly in Princeton NJ now. I haven’t been overseas – for any period of time at least – since 2003. But I got a picture of a buddy of mine – in Iraq of course – overseeing some concrete work wearin’ his Carhart’s, steel hard hat, carrying a clip board and strapped with a .45. Real macho, but I don’t wanna hafta go to work like that myself. But it sure pays good.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
What, there aren’t people who need shooting in Princeton?
by Jay on May 1, 2008 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
geopolitical knowledge quiz. i’ll mediate.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on May 1, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
ooooh
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on May 2, 2008 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m nearly qualified:
1) Even though I live in a city with a handgun ban, I’m handy with “the Steel”. Seriously.
2) I work in a field related to construction. I used to work at an engineering firm too, where I inspected infrastructure (culverts, retaining walls, pavement—-no pipelines though).
3) I’m crazy enough to go to Kazakstan.
4) I’d like a new job
Foreman need an understudy? Or would a lesser gig like that go to a Pan-European, or Asian ex pat?
I got the email address of the girl in London that handles all the recruiting – remind me next week and I’ll forward it to you. But it really doesn’t do much good, since ya gotta know somebody inside to get on, but once ya get over there, there’s lots of possibilities.
Anyway the website – Swift Somethin – over in London is my POC. I’ll see if I can find it.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
This was supposed to be my responce to Turk – sorry.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
I’m sure someone will post this shortly, but I heard tonight’s line-up on the radio just now:
Sizemore
Blake
Dellucci
Martinez
Peralta
Hafner
Garko
Gutierrez
Cabrera
(actually, Garko and Hafner might be flipped—my memory is faulty and I was driving). Anyway, the much talked about shake-up. Let’s see if it works!
Thanks. Wedge stacked his (relative) speed 8 to 3. He’s going to try everything, apparently. Except Andy Marte.
by fleerdon on May 1, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, why try Andy when Casey is like, leading the league in RBI or something?
Also! Rick Manning declared last night that Wedge was simply putting Casey in “RBI spots” because he’s the most productive hitter at the moment. Um, Rick, it lasted one game, buddy.
RHP (Miguel Batista) starting for them tonight. Left-handed hitters have a small advantage in attempting to crack Wedge’s rotations. If Brandon Phillips hit LH, Vasquez wouldn’t have been the utility guy even if he was “better suited” to it.
If we start calling ourselves out for every facile point we make, we’ll spend a lot of time calling ourselves out for facile points. Such as mine.
by fleerdon on May 1, 2008 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Hafner sixth – and I thought they weren’t readin my posts!
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Kimchi – out of the most disgusting things I have tasted in my limited traveling, this one ranks right up there … yucka!!
Wow, if we’re affecting the lineup more, does that mean we’re affecting world peace less?
by Jay on May 1, 2008 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
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