My Favorite Indian is...
by mjschaefer on May 10, 2008 2:45 PM EDT
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PrintFirst let me say I don't know if this qualifies as a fanpost or a fanshot and I apologize for being so naive.
I can't speak for all fans, but in general I've learned to never become attached to one player specifically. For example in basketball Shawn Kemp was traded from my Sonics nearly killing the NBA for me, Randy Moss was traded from the Vikings for nothing, and numerous of my favorite Indians have left via FA or some by trade. However there is always another player to take their place. So without any more boring chatter here is my list of my favorite Indians ever......
10. Cliff Lee- I certainly don't expect anyone to believe me given the success that Lee has had this year, but allow me to show some facts. In 2004 Cliff Lee just started up with the Indians. He was 5-0 through May. I picked my Legion baseball number because of him. I wore 31 for that year and again in Varsity baseball. I was also a pitcher. A pitcher who had extreme temper tantrums....leading to my favorite Cliff Lee infamous moment. Lee threw a glove into the crowd after a poor start against Toronto. 2007 and the subsequent off-season was tough because I wanted him to do well but never envisioned him to get another chance here. Glad to see him running with it now. Below is a picture of me pitching in Cliff's number!:
http://b6.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00818/62/84/818004826_l.jpg
Number isn't visible sadly......
9. Manny Ramirez- This guy was the man when I really got caught up with the Indians. He was post Albert Belle, which I figured meant he'd be around forever...his sweet song has since moved on and he's won two titles and will generally be revered as the most dangerous hitter in baseball over the past decade. When we didn't resign him in 2000 I took it as a sign that the Indians would never be the same. Aside from 01...they weren't.
8. Jaret Wright- I was never so wrong about a guy in my entire life. I was 100% sure he would be the next big thing starting in 1998. How in the world can anyone forget how well he pitched in the post-season of 1997? Arm problems plagued the rest of his career and he was never the same. Any time I see that he's pitching in the box score I think of him as the Yankee-Killer.
7. Kenny Lofton- Any fan of the Indians during the past decade and a half that I've been a fan had to love Lofton. He enjoyed three stints with the team and was generally one of the more exciting players to ever wear the uniform.
6. Jim Thome- This man broke my heart when he left for the Phillies. I don't know why but it just seemed like he would be the type of guy that would hang around even during the down times. Thome is a great man and great player, but as WhySox player I could never root for him.
5. Travis Fryman- Perhaps one of the more underrated members of the Indians. Fryman just showed up and did his job, day in and day out. He was never flashy. He was what he was. His best season occurred in 2000 with his .321 average and a Gold Glove. I think injuries cut him short a few years.
4&3. Alomar Bros- These two dudes were a sheer joy to watch playing together. Sandy Alomar hit the game winning homer off Mariano and hit an exciting homer in the All-Star game hosted at Jacob's Field. Roberto was part of the best double play duo in baseball history. Roberto is widely considered to be one of, if not the best second baseman ever. So eat your heart out Joe Morgan. I got Sandy's autograph last year. He was extremely nice. The sad part was I was at a AAA game to do so.....
2. C.C. Sabathia- I'm not sure if there is any player who better represents the Indians peaks and valleys the way that Sabathia's career arc does. I loved the big guy from the moment he burst on to the scene in 2001. However as the team goes, so does C.C. During their mad dash to the finish line in 2005 it was Sabathia who carried that pitching staff. In August and September he went 9-1 in 11 starts including a 1.54 era in September. Last year's run would have been impossible without him anchoring the staff. With his contract situation up in the air I've been vocal in my feelings that we need to resign him, but only if he takes another discount. I'm unsure of his future.
1. Omar Vizquel- The little O was quite amazing to watch. His defense is the best of all-time for any shortstop and he never ceased to amaze me with his wild acrobatic plays. Vizquel helped key the comeback against the Mariners in 2001 with a triple down the line late in the game. Vizquel went 5-6 against the Yankees in the infamous 22-0 game. Vizquel did something that few of the players before on this list had done....he hadn't left. Vizquel was just there. He was the one constant from 1994-2004. Now he plays for the Giants and more importantly at the ripe age of 41 he is going to come of the DL today and play. I wish him the best luck in the world and hope that the Little O continues to dazzle others the way he dazzled me. He won't make the HOF even though I contend he should.
Now that I've wasted your time........feel free to make your own list!
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I played the Alomar Bros on my old SNES. Ir was awesome when Sandy would hurl a turtle shell at Yankees and his brother Robbie would power up and shoot loogies out of his mouth.
grady, vic, fausto, raffy B, jhonny, andy marte, westbrook. formerly lofton and manny
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on May 10, 2008 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
i was totally serious
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on May 10, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Fausto is tied with Vic as my current favorite and they’re high on my alltime list, although the walks are annoying. It’s like he’s not pitching to induce groundballs anymore, but rather to avert homeruns. Like Grady in the last couple seasons, it’s seems to me that he’s still experimenting in his approaches. I think he’ll continue to improve as this season wears on.
It’s hard to single out any one pitcher now though, because I’m in love with our rotation. I’m even loving Bryd these days.
I dig hard throwing, wicked relievers: Mike Jackson, Arthur Rhodes, Alan Embree and Paul Shuey
Gotta love switch-hitters: Alomar, Baerga, Vizquel, Whiten et al. A switch-hitting catcher is a ridiculous skil lset; thus my admiration for Bard while he was here, and that guy who replaced him.
Shout out to Jhonny and Marte.
David Justice is a very under-rated ex-Indian.
Ankiel is my favorite non-Indian, of course. I just added some thoughts about his spectacular arm into a since-disappearing fanshot.
Aaron Laffey, if for no other reason than it really cheeses me off that everybody knows who Ian Kennedy is - “IPK”? Seriously? Too many Ians running around in MLB - despite the fact that Aaron Laffey is both a better pitcher and also could beat Kennedy in a fight.
by fleerdon on May 10, 2008 4:42 PM EDT reply actions
oh jesus how could i forget aaron laffey, after all my drunk musings and dials and text messages regarding him
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on May 10, 2008 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Given my avatar, I have to start with Baerga, who was really fun to watch before he lost it.
Close second would be Omar. Martinez third.
I agree with Jhon about relievers, but wouldn’t pick the same ones: Jackson, yes, but also Paul Assenmacher, and Betancourt. Tavarez was a lot of fun that one great year. Rafael Perez is pitching his way on to my list.
Of the starters since the mid-90s, I like Westbrook - he makes the most of his talent and reminds me, in a funny way, of Jimmy Key (right-handed, of course) who I used to like when I followed the Jays - a guy who doesn’t overpower you, but gets you out, is really tough, and doesn’t get much credit for what he does.
In all seriousness, Baerga is my all-time fave. I still remember when I was about 8 after one game at Skydome waiting outside Gate 6, and Carlos coming out in the coolest flowery shirt of all-time. He signed my glove, which I promptly played with, and ruined. Idiot.
by supermarioelia on May 10, 2008 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but I’m confident with a little effort you could get another one. He works for ESPN Deportes, it’s not like he got taken back to his home planet.
by fleerdon on May 10, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
equivocado
Fingers crossed, but breathing normally
by Chief WaDrew on May 11, 2008 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Albert Belle is my all time favorite Indian. I’m surprised he’s not on more lists.
And Joe Carter would be on my list, but that’s probably because I’m a decade older than most people here (31).
I’d say you are the exact median age. Maybe even the mode age.
LGT is not as young as it seems, I don’t think.
all those bloggers are young and kids and naive and everything!
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on May 10, 2008 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
30
Formerly known as "tribefan stuck in boston"
by BostonWahoo on May 14, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, and the Brothers Alomar are my favorite Indians.
Formerly known as "tribefan stuck in boston"
by BostonWahoo on May 14, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
And Rick Vaughn.
Formerly known as "tribefan stuck in boston"
by BostonWahoo on May 14, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, Scripteye, if you think you are old, take a look at this list :-)
10. Luis Tiant
9. Cal MacLish
8. Kenny Lofton
7. Dennis Eckersley
6. Steve Hargan
5. Chico Salmon
4. Travis Hafner
3. Jack Kralick
2. Sam McDowell
1. Rocky Colavito
The “Rock” will always be #1 !!
by CaptainPenny on May 10, 2008 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoa, CP, you’re ancient.
That looks like a list my dad would put together. :-)
Seriously, though, it does.
Well, that’s better than it looking like a list your grandfather would put together!! But I think there are quite a few of us old farts hanging around here with many fond (and frustrated) memories. I used to pitch and patterned my windup after Kralick. I tried to throw as hard as Sudden Sam. And I could only dream of hitting like the Rock.
by CaptainPenny on May 11, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Joe Charboneau!
(It was 1986 when I finally stopped asking my Dad when Super Joe would be back)
by PatBordersHelmet on May 11, 2008 1:00 AM EDT reply actions
It’s not just the .115/.198/.156, it’s that he did it with a toothpick in his mouth.
Seriously, though, as you might surmise, my all-time favorite Indian was Sam McDowell. For the obvious reasons, including the fact that he was truly brilliant when so many of his teammates were barely adequate. Or that he and I are both tall, lefty, wild, and known to have a drink now and then.
Sam was just coming up when I moved to Cleveland in 1963. For some reason, all of the men in my parents’ generation seemed to be down on him. He was a crybaby, a wimp, not tough like the old ballplayers. I think it had to do with a few false starts and minor injuries early on.
I was entering my rebellious years and gravitated to anyone the old farts didn’t like. Cassius Clay, obviously, was a prime example. So I took it as a personal triumph when Sam emerged as pretty much the best pitcher in the league over a 6-7 year stretch.
I was very much in favor of the trade, as the Indians were going nowhere and it seemed to finally land Sam in the place where he belonged, a team with lots of bats. I predicted a Cy Young. (I was so wrong on this I turned out to be right.)
Looks like he kind of got screwed out of that Cy Young, too — the stat boys would have been hooting and hollering over that. He had 20 wins on a bad team — 54-69 without him, 24-15 with — and he averaged almost a full inning more per start than Jim Perry, with a slightly lower ERA and vastly higher K per start (7.8 to 4.2).
What were they saying about him when he had that off-year in 1967?
McDowell finished behind two 24-game winners and ahead of another one in 1970.
*ERA+ for the top five finishers:
J. Perry 125
McNally 113
McDowell 134
Cuellar 105
Palmer 125
So maybe Sam got shafted, but what really jumps out is three guys from the same rotation finishing in the top five. Oh, and Jaret Wright’s dad finished 6th (22-12, 127).
As for 1967, I think the McDowell-bashing was pretty much laid to rest in 1965.
And not to belabor the point too much more, but it occurs to me that there is a bit of a parallel between the young McDowell and Adam Mller. Imagine if Atom had been pushed into the rotation at age 19 and then suffered the same string of strains and blisters and other setbacks in the glare of the majors. And then imagine he was, all along, being touted as the next Herb Score and given a nickname that was a play on Rapid Robert.
So I think that’s where the “pampered crybaby” thing came from. Sam was pushed too hard, too soon, and his disappointments were quickly interpreted as character flaws.
Omar is #1, and Charles Nagy is #2. For me, those guys were the 90s Indians and though my appreciation for baseball is different than it was then, I sort of buy into the whole nostalgic baseball-of-your-youth idea. Omar just always seemed like he was there, and Nagy almost literally pitched his right arm off for the Tribe, and never got the credit for doing so.
Other favorites, among many, are Brook Jacoby, Glenallen Hill, Carlos Baerga, Manny, Sandy Alomar, Assenmacher (those strikeouts against the Mariners in the ‘95 ALDS! Holy noun!), Grady, and Victor.
And I really, really, want Asdrubal to be good. Maybe because I want another Omar, but I want him to be an elder statesman for the team in 2018.
My favorite that I never saw is Satchel Paige.
Il faut d'abord durer.
I joined the Tribe Nation in 1985 (born in ‘79, but moved from Omaha to Cleveland in ‘85), and from those early years, guys I remember really fondly include Julio Franco, Brook Jacoby and Tom Candiotti. In the early ‘90s, it was the holy trinity of Belle, Baera and Lofton. For those mid-late ‘90s teams, there are few guys I don’t really love. But Robbie Alomar sticks on in my mind. He was only here for three seasons, but damn was he good. In addition to that incredible defensive tag-team with Omar, this was his average line in Cleveland:
157 Games
583 AB
121 Runs
188 Hits
38 Doubles
6 Triples
21 HRs
103 RBI
35 SB
5 CS
81 BB
83 SO
.322 BA
.414 OBP
.515 SLG
300 TB
11 SH
9 SF
Alomar is probably the most complete player I’ve ever watched on a regular basis…certainly the most complete player I’ve seen in an Indians uniform.
It’s weird, all of the Robbie love shown up here has really turned me off of him. I prefer to stick to guys who are really ours, you know what I mean? Hence Thome and Manny meaning nothing to me.
by supermarioelia on May 11, 2008 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
And by “up here”, I obviously mean north of the border.
by supermarioelia on May 11, 2008 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Strangely my first favourite Indians player was Robbie Alomar, after I saw my first Indians game at the Skydome. He was booed for most of the game, which I was told was to do with spitting at an ump, and he then hit a homerun to shut everyone up…dunno why, but that made me like him.
Current fav is Victor….its a South American thing…
http://www.on-the-bench.blogspot.com - an irreverant take on EPL football (that's soccer!)
by Luis (Tribe Fan in London) on May 11, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Robbie ,after he was traded to the Mets, took out a section of the PD Sports section to write to Cleveland fans on how much he would miss playing for us and how he wished that it weren’t coming to an end. One way to endear yourself
I don’t know how any player could be more enjoyable to have on your team than Robbie. In the field, he was very nearly as thrilling to watch as Omar, really very close. At the plate, other than the all-bat corner sluggers, he was probably the best hitter we’ve had since Lou Boudreau — and he was great on the basepaths, too.
He also almost never was disappointing. He had a couple of month-long slumps in 2000, but other than that, he was legitimately hitting at an MVP level for his entire career as an Indian.
We think Alomar goes in as a Jay? I think there’s a sneaky little argument that he goes in as an Indian, because of the sustained excellence there and it was when he was most in the national spotlight.
But, it’s not a very good argument. Bluejay.
They honoured Alomar before the home opener, and there’s no way anyone came away from that ceremony thinking anything except that he’s going in as a Jay. This despite Godfrey and Beeston’s collective awkwardness at the podium. I’ve never seen so many awkward hugs and handshakes in a 20-minute span, but they managed to pull it off. Robbie was clearly uncomfortable with these two men, but the fans’ reaction to him was unreal.
by supermarioelia on May 11, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh. I was a little young to really recognize what he was doing with Toronto. Is there some story with Godfrey and Beeston?
Nah no animosity or anything, just one guy who is kinda hated by Torontonians (Godfrey) and a guy who is just generally socially awkward (Beeston). And Robby was in the middle. It was actually pretty high comedy.
Just to explain this a bit better, the Jays don’t retire numbers, they induct people into their “Level of Excellence”. To date, only five guys have been honoured: Carter, Fernandez, Stieb, George Bell, and Alomar. And even though Robbie spent the fewest years with the Jays of any of those guys, he’s considered the greatest Jay by most fans. Arriving in ‘91, winning two World Series, then leaving in ‘95 will tend to leave a sweet taste in peoples’ mouths.
Robbie may have had a great time and had great seasons while he was with Cleveland, but I don’t see any way he doesn’t go in as a Jay. He spent longer there than any other stop, had rouuuughly similar numbers to when he was Cleveland (we’re talking similar enough for him to see them as similar) and won two titles. But hey, would be darn cool for him to screw the Jays.
by supermarioelia on May 11, 2008 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s no longer just a player’s call. Somebody in Cooperstown decides what a player’s “primary” team is. Carlton Fisk and Gary Carter wanted to go in as Red Sox and Met, even though they played longer with the White Sox and Expos. I think Fisk wears a Red Sox hat.
Alomar definitely goes in as a Jay.
It was never a player’s call, but the HOF always asked the player for his input and (of course) tended to agree with the answer. At some point, players got to thinking that it was actually their decision, leading Wade Boggs to sign a deal with the Devil Rays in which he promised to be enshrined in a Tampa Bay cap. At that point, the HOF had to step out and clarify that it was their decision, and that they were more concerned with identifying the player’s most historically significant team affiliation.
This then led to a public spat with Roger Clemens, who basically threatened to boycott his own induction if he wasn’t allowed to be enshrined in a Yankees cap — this actually was one of his all-time classic douchebag moves, albeit somewhat overshadowed by more recent events.
You will find that in nearly every case, players are enshrined wearing the cap of the team with whom they achieved a majority (or the largest plurality) of their on-field accomplishments. A rare exception is Reggie Jackson, who is enshrined as a Yankee despite having played longer and racked up more of his overall numbers with Oakland—over 100 more home runs, for example. But although Reggie played longer with the Athletics and even won multiple championships with them, he also had a significant tenure with the Yankees, and he is undeniably best known for his World Series exploits as a Yankee.
Back to Robbie, it does seem overwhelmingly llkely that he goes in as a Blue Jay. He spent three seasons each with the Padres, Orioles and Indians, and five full seasons with Toronto—he stole twice as many bases as a Blue Jay (206-106) but actually hit more home runs as an Indian (63-54). He played his two very best seasons as an Indian and three of his best five. He was an All-Star and Gold Glover in all eight seasons with Toronto and Cleveland; got one Silver Slugger with Toronto and two with Cleveland; got three sixth-place MVP finishes with Toronto and one third-place and one fourth-place with Cleveland.
So the regular season stuff almost looks like a tie — Alomar was better with Cleveland but achieved more in total with Toronto, but the tie would go to Toronto based on tenure. But the postseason is what really kills us — Alomar was the ALCS MVP with Toronto and was part of two World Series teams. As an Indian, Alomar never won a single postseason series.
Based on precedent, it is almost certain that Alomar will go in as a Blue Jay, and that both Clemens and Manny will go in as Red Sox.
Almost never is right. But there was his unheralded performance against Jamie Moyer in the postseason, where he seemed too weary to run to first base.
The team was just so darn bad in those days that there’s every reason to want to repress the whole era—not only Thornton, but Gaylord Perry and some guys who became stars after we sent them away: Nettles, Chambliss, Buddy Bell, Eckersley.
by ken from alexandria on May 11, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Great post!!
My top would be…
1. Omar Vizquel
2. Luke Easter
3. Al Smith
4. Gene Bearden
5. Victor Martinez
6. Jim Thome
7. Dave Burba
8. Frank Robinson
9. Andre Thornton
10. Jim Hegan
Brian Giles and Sean Casey were also favorites, but they got traded before I could ever really identify them as Clevelanders. Also, I always really liked Enrique Wilson and Jolbert Cabrera.
Agreed
Omar V. is my all-time favorite just edging out Mr. Lofton. Carlos Baerga is also one of my favorite players. I was at the game where he set the MLB record for hitting 2 home runs in the same inning from different sides of the plate. Have the ticket stub and the basball card that hilights that feat. BTW, has anybody else ever done that in the bigs? When it happened, it was the first time ever.
Mark Bellhorn also did it in 2002 with the Cubs.
by supermarioelia on May 12, 2008 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Great fun! Among the players that will always have a fond place in my memories:
Childhood Heroes:
Toby Harrah, Rick Sutcliffe, Mel Hall, Joe Carter, Cory Snyder, Julio Franco, Brook Jacoby, doug Jones, Carmen Castillo (always rooted for him) and Brett Butler (first autograph).
My first real ballpark memory was a walk-off infield single by Toby Harrah in extra innings. Leaving the stadium, everyone was geeked, car horns blaring, high-fives, etc. I remember an old El Camino run through some barriers into some cement that hadn’t yet set and got stuck. Awesome night! I was probably about 7 or 8.
The ‘90’s Powerhouse Teams:
Carlos Baerga, Kenny Lofton, Sandy Alomar (my all-time favorite), Manny, Paul Shuey
Current Edition:
Victor, Fausto, Jhonny. Betancourt
The 1995 team is more special than anything to me:
1. Kenny Lofton
2. Omar Vizquel
3. Carlos Baerga
4. Albert Belle
5. Eddie Murray
6. Paul Sorrento
7. Manny Ramirez
8. Jim Thome
9. Sandy Alomar Jr.
Manny, Sandy, Omar, and Lofton stick out as my faves, but that entire team was just so magical. I remember thinking when Jim Thome caught the pop up to clinch the division, that even if the Indians didn’t win the Series that year and won the next 30 championships, there would never be a more special moment in my sports history.
that team was great….just looking at it, you’ve got 3 obvious/likely HOFers (Murray, Ramirez, Thome), 3 hall of very good/marginal HOF guys (Vizquel, Lofton, Belle), a guy who somehow managed to do a Rogers Hornsby impression for a few years (Baerga), a talented (if always injured) catcher and a not so bad role player in Sorrento. If only we could combine that team with our current generation of pitchers…or any of those teams from ‘95-’00
Always brings a smile to my face to see Jim Thome batting “second cleanup,” as Grover once put it.
The 1999 lineup produced more runs, but that was more about a confluence of career years (Vizquel, Alomar, Justice). The 1995 lineup was more about pure greatness. Belle would have been a HOFer given just two or three years before succumbing to his degenerative hip.
Also! Tony Peña caught most of the games and got more than one key hit … Brian Giles and David Bell had their first cups of coffee with that team … and Dave Winfield — Dave f’ing Winfield! — played in 46 games but couldn’t crack the postseason roster! That was one hell of a ballclub.
Historical guys in no order: Nap, Shoeless Joe, Speaker, Joss, Bagby Sr, Covelski, Ferrell (Luke and Joe) Harder, Feller, Boudreau, Rosen, Doby, Wynn, Garcia, Averill, Lemon, Rocky, the Perry brothers, Score, ... i know there are many others I am forgetting.
childhood favs: Kuiper (my avatar), Gamble, Buddy Bell, Kern, Hendrick, Thornton, Waits, Barker, Butler, Jacoby, Swindell, Eck, Manning, Ron Pruitt.
the 90s: Baerga, Lofton, Kent (while he was here), Belle, Thome, Poole, Plunk, Hershiser …
And today … Grady, Fausto, Vic, Jhonny, Hafner, and the Raffy’s.
Jeff Kent? Really? I didn’t think anyone would list him. He didn’t do much here, but he did turn out to be a pretty good player.
You know who we’ve been forgetting collectively—Travis Fryman. I always liked him, although he always seemed to be a little less good than I thought he was.
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