Does downtown suck? Only if it's re-named Souvenir City.
Checking out the media this week...
That's mainly because I was angered by the split. Cue Jayson Stark telling us when the last time a team played a doubleheader and its two starters went 9 / 0. Anyway, my response to Eric would be to bunt more. Everyone should bunt. Bunt bunt bunt.
Is downtown really this rough?
I don't get back to downtown Cleveland more than once or twice a year now, but I thought this Globe & Mail blogger's take was excessive: Cleveland is a "sad metropolis that turns into a ghost town at nights and over the weekends."
I wish I would have come up with this idea.
A very nice series on beisbol in the DR from Slate.
I'm beginning to like this blog more and more.
At first I was lukewarm to Anthony Castrovince's blog; I went to college with him, and he was roundly unimpressive then. As in, Andrew Swift could out-write and out-clever him using only two fingers and 20% of his brain. But I think Anthony has worked hard to improve his writing and sourcing, and his blog is a lot of fun. He's got a funny entry on Wikipedia today.
I like to check out the media for teams we're about to play, and I thought this column was silly. The author essentially argues, "Every late and close situation should be superstar hitter vs. pitcher. Blah blah I don't like when middle infielders have to bat with the game on the line." And is there some sort of rule in the NL that prohibits Carlos Beltran from pinch-hitting?
Why do you have a mailbag if you can't answer mail?
Dear John Donovan,
When a reader makes a stupid comment, you can either print their email and refute it in swift, simple, devastating fashion, or you can not print it at all. Otherwise, what's the point? (I'm referring to the Sizemore overrated letter).
Six-year olds know more than some managers.
The inimitable JoePos has a rant against the intentional walk, complete with too-cute-to-believe anecdote. Have you read his blog lately? The man is prolific.
Nothing gets Manny Downs. Okay, mildly Downs.
Really, this gets a headline? He's probably right, and definitely an ass.
And finally, some random observations.
The PD's Tribe section online sucks. The whole online PD is a mess, really. You've got half the article printed on the main page. Readers can't tell if an item was technically an "article," "column," or "blog post." And that's not really a blog they have; I'm amazed they haven't hired someone who can blog or can teach their writers to blog.
I know I dog Underwood and Manning, but they deserve it. Just from memory, here are three standouts from yesterday:
Underwood, commenting on a 2-1 count with a runner on first: "This is a good count to try a hit and run or some other offensive play." What other play would that be?
Underwood's reaction to AbaCab's dinger: "It's outta here, a la Robbie Alomar!" I said this in the game thread, but what kind of idiot references one of the worst moments in your team's history to describe a May home run?
And someone needs to tell Manning that the camera angle from center field does not show a straight-on view to judge balls and strikes. Three times he declared a pitch to be "way off the plate," only to have replay and technology prove him wrong. And yet he still declared that he was correct.
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Castrovince
I went to OU with him, too. I don’t really remember his journalism then, though. Did he write for The Post?
by J83 on May 13, 2008 11:22 AM EDT 0 recs
Yep. Very typical stuff. He’s fortunate in two ways:
1) Sports writers don’t have to be good writers (just peruse the PD staff), and
2) He seems to have a solid work ethic and a will to improve.
by tabler84 on
May 13, 2008 11:26 AM EDT
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The downtown judgement is typical of people who don’t stray far from the hotel. Euclid
Avenue and Public Square don’t make a great impression, and the area around the courts IS deserted at night. But, the Warehouse district and Tremont and west 25th are lively. If
downtown Toronto were interpreted as the area around the main downtown hotels, it wouldn’t look too lively either. Mind you, Toronto is lots livelier than Cleveland—there’s no doubt about that.
by peter m on May 13, 2008 12:36 PM EDT 0 recs
I can weigh in on this a litle bit. I had several friends from college in from out of town last week, one living in Philly, one living in NYC, and a couple that are still in Columbus (all Ohio State alums).
Just for some background, my new wife and I moved up from Columbus last August, and I have been trying to familiarize myself with the area since. From what I understood, aside from the Jake being an obvious destination, some places to go were W6th, Gateway, Ohio City, and Tremont.
We went out in Gateway before and after the game (Flannery’s, Local Heroes) and it was lively, naturally because of the Indians game. I had been out there before several other Tribe games, and the bars are typical sports bars, nothing special. E. 4th has a lot of potential, though, and has been becoming steadily more popular from what I have witnessed and read.
We went to GLBC after the game also, and around the corner to Bier Market, places I had been a few times. Fun places to hang out, and pretty lively also. I am a huge fan of Great Lakes beer, even before moving to Cleveland, so that was a natural stop. After Ohio City, on a friend’s (and many other) recommendation, we went on to Tremont, which was fun, but less lively than I expected. I didn’t feel like it lived up to its reputation, and my friends agreed. The Treehouse in particular was a cool bar. (In its defense though, last Friday night was pretty chilly, and Tremont is definitely a walking environment).
Saturday night, we went out on W. 6th. It was pretty crazy down there, with the Cavs win and the Tribe both playing and winning. The bars were very cool (the Velvet Dog, in particular), and you could hardly get in to some places. It was a huge hit with all of my of my buddies.
I think downtown is on the upswing, contrary to some thoughts posted in this thread. I read somewhere that the population of downtown has doubled over the past six or seven years, and there are a lot of condos and apartments under construction. W. 6th has a lot of future potential, also, considering the huge project that is about to go in down the street in the Flats.
by bewwolv on
May 13, 2008 7:32 PM EDT
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People shouldn’t be so sensitive about others’ opinions of downtown Cleveland. Anybody who’s anybody moved out to distant suburbs long ago. We are lucky to have enough entertainment close to home so that most of us don’t bother driving into downtown to amuse ourselves. Any outsider that interprets the state of downtown Cleveland to the quality of live in Norheast Ohio is pretty dense.
by elsandito on May 13, 2008 1:08 PM EDT 0 recs
There are also a bunch of close-in suburbs that are pretty nice, and in most “greater city areas,” those would be part of the city itself. Cleveland’s city lines are unusually tightly defined.
by Jay on
May 13, 2008 1:17 PM EDT
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To me, a big part of the lament is that everybody has moved out of the city and couldn’t care less whether or not it dies. Folks in the Cleveland area have retreated to their suburbs and all but shut themselves off from downtown, which I think is a shame.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
May 13, 2008 1:24 PM EDT
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Yeah, probably. Not that I have a lot to base this on, but I get the feeling that it’s a bit more of a problem in Cleveland.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
May 14, 2008 8:50 AM EDT
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It is indeed a common theme in North American cities (even some European ones). But, it seems more extreme in Cleveland, Detroit and a couple of other Great Lakes cities, probably because of the loss of central city employment and the more or less complete collapse of central city shopping. Highway construction and a deliberate policy of encouraging suburbanization going back to the late 40s laid the groundwork. A few cities I’m familiar with (NY, SF, Chicago, Toronto, Montreal, even Boston) have had some success in preserving or even reviving their downtowns and retaining residential populations. And, people seem to care about those cities, even if they live in their suburbs. But, all North American cities seem to be struggling with this.
by peter m on
May 14, 2008 10:29 AM EDT
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I actually have some friends, a younger couple, that live downtown right of W. 9th and love it. Last time I was at their place we ran into Anderson Varejao on the street, who apprently also lives (or lived) in the neighborhood.
by APV on
May 13, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
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A co-worker lives in the Warehouse district and always sees local athletes out (including Andy quite often), and just Friday night saw BJ Ryan and Brian Tallet.
On a Browns note, he said nobody could have been nicer to he and his drunk buddies than Browns punter Dave Zastudil.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
by rolub on
May 13, 2008 2:02 PM EDT
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I randomly ran into Zastudil’s parents before a Browns/Ravens game in Baltimore a few years back, when he was still playing for the Ravens. Extremely nice people, they even gave me and my friends a couple of beers. They told us they were Browns fans, so it was kind of depressing for Dave to have to play for the Ravens and that they wouldn’t be sad if he signed with somebody else when his deal was up.
by ClarkM on
May 13, 2008 2:59 PM EDT
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Rumors spread all the time about where local athletes live, but I think this is correct. I have an acquaintance who claimed he lived in her townhouse/condo buildling (the one right behind GLBC) and my good friend has talked him up on a number of occasions at the West Side Market Cafe (the dive/diner inside the market and on lorain).
Although the last time he saw him was late last summer, so he may have moved by now. I had read/heard somewhere that he has a house in Westlake.
The more I talk about this, the skeevier i feel.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
by rolub on
May 13, 2008 2:36 PM EDT
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I was looking at a place there (the “F&S building”, full name withheld to protect Sizemore from those Grady’s ladies stalkers) a little over a year ago and the realtor couldn’t stop talking about how Sizemore lived there, that seemed to be a big selling point for the guy, it was pretty pathetic. No clue if he still lives there now.
by millionairesrow on
May 13, 2008 3:18 PM EDT
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Garko and Barfield lived on W. 6th as of the post-season clinching party last year…
by APV on
May 13, 2008 2:38 PM EDT
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Don’t misinterpret my tone; I wasn’t indignant about what the writer said about Cleveland. More surprised, if it’s true.
by tabler84 on
May 13, 2008 2:52 PM EDT
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From my brief experience in Cleveland, the city was simply atrocious. I stayed in the area by the Jake though so it was probably not representative of the city as a whole. Still, it sucked all kinds of ass. The bars were empty on a Saturday night and last call was at 1, which absolutely blew my mind.
Since I live in the ‘burbs of the greatest city in the world, I am used to getting frustrated when last call is 2 instead of 4, but 1 is simply unbearable. There’s almost no point in going out unless you’re at the bar by 8.
by Joe. on May 13, 2008 1:42 PM EDT 0 recs
The “bars” you went to had to have been the restaurant/bar type… Harry Buffalo, Winking Lizard, Flannery’s, etc.?
Bars/clubs on W. 6th typically have a 2:00 a.m. last call.
Still not saying that the downtown nightlife is terrific, but there’s much more action on W. 6th, or in Tremont. Not sure I can lump Ohio City into that group yet.
Visitors looking for college-drunken-nightlife are better off staying in Lakewood or Cleveland Heights.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
by rolub on
May 13, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
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If I recall correctly, I went to the Thirsty Parrot, which was packed early but died out fast and was pretty terrible anyway. We also went to a couple of small bars that were in front of the stadium. Can’t really recall any descriptive features or anything of the first, but the second had a framed Vizquel jersey on the wall. That bar literally had like 15 people.
A factor in my misery could have been that the Indians were beaten pretty badly and I just sat in a car for several hours from New Jersey to watch it. Not to mention, I had to hear my damn buddy rub the score in my face all night. At least the playoffs were sweet, sweet retribution.
by Joe. on
May 13, 2008 2:05 PM EDT
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So, you live in Rome – is that right?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 13, 2008 3:12 PM EDT
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Hard truth:
Depending on where you go in a city and what happens to you there, most cities could be classified as dumps.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on May 13, 2008 2:24 PM EDT 0 recs
true.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on
May 13, 2008 2:36 PM EDT
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Since I was in Camden, NJ this morning, I could not agree with you more.
Calling that place a dump is an insult to dumps around the world.
My point is, Cleveland ain’t perfect, but it could be worse.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
May 13, 2008 2:39 PM EDT
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Camden NJ makes Cleveland look like Paris, France.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 13, 2008 3:13 PM EDT
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Paris was, in my experience, vastly overrated.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 13, 2008 3:22 PM EDT
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Quelle arrondismont, mon petit chou?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 13, 2008 3:52 PM EDT
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My boss is from the 8th Arr., and he told me that’s the only place to live in Paris.
The batter swings and the summer flies...
by cclemens31 on
May 13, 2008 4:17 PM EDT
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He of course, is wrong. The place to live is the 18th arrondissement – Montmarte with the Sarce-Coure Cathedral and all of the brassieres. If I could talk the Mauidaisy into it, that’s where we’d be – or Grasse in Provence. Alas mon madame doesn’t parle and refuses to learn. C’est la vie!
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 13, 2008 6:57 PM EDT
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I will have to mention that…I’m sure I will receive a very atypical snooty French response in reply.
The batter swings and the summer flies...
by cclemens31 on
May 13, 2008 7:35 PM EDT
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Here’s what I learned about dealing with the French. If you tolerate their bullshit you get more bullshit. If you tell them – in English – that if they keep it up you’ll put their Gallic ass in traction, they stop. Simple, non mon amie?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 13, 2008 7:37 PM EDT
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I got him to admit that the 18th was far more popular than the 8th. I’ll tell you, his being French is a constant source of entertainment for me.
The batter swings and the summer flies...
by cclemens31 on
May 13, 2008 11:03 PM EDT
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Je ne suis pas une petite chou, mon ami.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 13, 2008 4:27 PM EDT
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I don’t read (or speak) French….so I’m very curious why I clicked on Brussel Sprouts.
by Nat on
May 13, 2008 4:29 PM EDT
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Literal translation of “ma petite chou” = “my little cabbage”
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 13, 2008 4:30 PM EDT
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Is it any worse of a term of endearment than – “spit from a bee” a/k/a/ “honey”?
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
May 13, 2008 5:07 PM EDT
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I believe it’s technically bee vomit, and it’s really not, no. I just like giving Chuck a hard time.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 13, 2008 5:49 PM EDT
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You’ve obviously never been to Camden
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
May 13, 2008 4:07 PM EDT
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This is also true.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 13, 2008 4:28 PM EDT
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Let me know when you’ll be there, the cheese steak’s on me. (You can pick up the crack if you so desire, both are equally obtainable)
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
May 13, 2008 5:08 PM EDT
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I was gonna tell you I didn’t intend to be going any further east than Cincinnati for the foreseeable future, but then you lured me in with the crack.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 13, 2008 5:48 PM EDT
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should have read “you lured me in with the crack about crack” ;)
by talonk on
May 13, 2008 6:10 PM EDT
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And oh yeah – you oh so wrong about this. If there’s a heaven it looks like Paris.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 13, 2008 7:12 PM EDT
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You must not have stayed long enough. It gets better with time.
by jhon on
May 13, 2008 8:29 PM EDT
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aww, gee, thanks.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on May 13, 2008 2:36 PM EDT 0 recs
Am I not even the funniest Andrew here anymore?
Christ. What am I doing with my life?
by afh4 on
May 13, 2008 3:55 PM EDT
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i think you’re definitely funnier than I, FWIW
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on
May 13, 2008 7:17 PM EDT
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Funny ha-ha or funny strange?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 13, 2008 7:33 PM EDT
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I listened to the Wedge interview referred to in the first article. He sounded quite annoyed. I was waiting for him to call the players a bunck of lollygaggers, and he came pretty close.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on May 13, 2008 2:37 PM EDT 0 recs
The problem with downtown (and it’s been this way since the rebirth in the 90’s) is that there are small pockets of activity and humongous expanses of distance between them. Unless you do research, or get lucky and meet someone that can show you where to go .. you can have a pretty dismal night in Cleveland.
One of the most incredible things about San Diego is that they have congregated all of the entertainment, convention center, shopping, etc into one area around the ballpark and anyone visiting can spend the rest of the evening just walking around bar hopping, eating or shopping.
Imagine if they had built the Jake near the lake (with the Flats on the West and West 6th on the East. It could have been an awesome corridor of entertainment for tourists if you could have the foresight to plan it out that way.
by Toxicadam on May 13, 2008 3:25 PM EDT 0 recs
Yes. I think one of the things that charms Americans who visit European cities (and even cities like SF or NYC) is that there is a lot of pedestrian activity - people walking around, sitting in cafes and restaurants, window-shopping, etc. Most American cities (especially the older industrial cities like Cleveland and Detroit) really lack this. The downtown commercial districts are dead, there’s very low density, and most of what’s left is defined as a destination - you drive there, park, go where you planned, then drive back. Playhouse Square is typical—you don’t even have to go outside!! Compare that to the theatre districts in places like London or NYC where you encounter huge crowds of people walking around at virtually any hour.
by peter m on
May 13, 2008 3:47 PM EDT
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That’s an interesting thought. Downtown San Diego is an interesting place, right now, I’d feel reasonably safe walking around almost anywhere at night, whereas about 15 years ago, it was a very dangerous place. Petco only helped that further by getting rid of the seedier areas of downtown San Diego (by building the ballpark and surrounding business by it).
In a sense though, Cleveland isn’t too different than San Diego in the amenities you’re talking about CLE has the Warehouse District and SD has the Gaslamp District, CLE has Tower City and San Diego has Horton Plaza.
The trouble is as peter m says , is the lack of people within those areas. Its probably about a 5 minute walk to the amenities you speak of from both Petco and the Jake however walking to the Gaslamp district after a game v. walking to the Warehouse District after a game would be pretty big differences (in both safety and weather).
The batter swings and the summer flies...
by cclemens31 on
May 13, 2008 3:56 PM EDT
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See, Cleveland isn’t a college town or a white-collar town – never was, never will be. Cleveland is full of my peeps – ethnic, blue collar workers. If you’re looking for a place to have a martini and talk IPOs Cleveland is not the place for you. If you wanna go have a shot and a beer and talk baseball there was/is no better place on the planet
But, unfortunately that part of Cleveland is either dead or dying along with the industries themselves. I know if you go there now you’d never believe it by Fleet Ave., W65th and Detroit, E35th and Payne and a host of other neighborhoods were bursting at the seems with shot and a beer joints. Fleet usta have the Double X, Karb’s, the Looking Glass, Mudders and lots of other great places to grab a beer, get some fine local cuisine and talk sports. And each one specialized in one particular dish. For example you could get a T-Bone and a beer at the Double X on a Saturday night for ten buck, a humogouse burger and fries at Karb’s for seven bucks. And each one of these bars a softball team, touch football and basketball team. For years the old Pyramid Cafe won the city softball title.
Nope, the heyday of Cleveland bars has come and gone, along with the city’s economy. Sorry you boyz missed it.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 13, 2008 4:02 PM EDT
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aren’t you an MD? are you trying to shore up the west virginia vote?
by emil minty on
May 13, 2008 4:15 PM EDT
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hahaha
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.
by Gradyforpresident on
May 13, 2008 7:19 PM EDT
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Or what Jay can remember about Cleveland while riding in his parent’s car on the drive from Hopkins to Canton.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 16, 2008 12:40 PM EDT
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Where ever – it sure as hell wasn’t Cleveland.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 16, 2008 1:33 PM EDT
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Chuck’s post brings up another point. Cleveland is no longer an ethnic, immigrant town (meaning first and second generation, anyway). There’s been virtually no immigration to the city for decades so the neighborhoods that used to thrive on immigrants have shriveled up and died (as people move out and are not replaced by newer arrivals). That’s another kind of density and neighborhood feel that this city lacks. Ironic in a city that prides itself on being a polyglot kind of place.
by peter m on May 13, 2008 4:40 PM EDT 0 recs
Cleveland is a BIG immigrant town. Instead of historic eastern European immigrants, downtown has many Latino immigrants. Cleveland will experience its rebirth, but maybe not in our lifetimes. It makes me a little sad that I won’t be here to see it and perhaps my son won’t either. The southern rim of the sourthernmost Great Lake is one of the loveliest natural wonders of the world.
by elsandito on
May 13, 2008 6:11 PM EDT
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Sadly, the numbers don’t support this. Cleveland has one of the lowest rates of in-migration of any significant city in the country. There is some Latino migration (more to the Painesville area, I believe) and a trickle of Eastern Europeans, Asian professionals, etc. But, immigrants go where there are jobs. Cleveland isn’t attracting them in numbers comparable to what’s happening elsewhere in the country.
by peter m on
May 13, 2008 6:52 PM EDT
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You got it. Cleveland’s is an industrial based economy and the traditional industries are all being shipped overseas. Last year they made a little steel down in the mill, few tires in Akron and even fewer wind shields in Toledo. The medical Borg – the Cleveland Clinic – is ever expanding. But unless you’re a foreign trained thoracic surgeon few of the job openings there can compare with being the the third trick blower on Furnace #5 at Republic Steel. For some reason emptying bedpans doesn’t pay as well as turning coal into coke.
And Cleveland’s “inner-ring suburbs” (read racial transitioning) are rapidly becoming the 21st Century ghettos. Neighborhoods that once supported vibrant communities with superior schools, safe neighborhoods and active citizens are now over-run with abandoned, foreclosed homes. Cleveland is a sad, sad place, not even a shadow of it’s former self.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 13, 2008 7:07 PM EDT
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I live in one of those inner ring suburbs. It’s not what it used to be, I’m sure, back when they had restrictive covenants and homogeneous neighborhoods. There also is a real problem with foreclosures and stagnant or declining property values, as everyone knows. But, people run away from it thinking they’ll escape. Shaker Heights just had the most National Merit finalists of any school in the country (front page of the PD today). It’s not that bad. Gloom will get us nowhere. I’ll stop—no politics on let’s go tribe!!
by peter m on
May 13, 2008 8:19 PM EDT
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This reminds me of a funny movie I once saw (but can no longer identify), in which there are a series of shots of an airplane arriving for a diplomatic visit somewhere. Each time, the plane is met by a delegation from the host country dressed in colorful and stereotypically Eastern European native costume. Ea


