All-Time Indians-Reds Team
As much as I despise inter-league play, here it comes. I know I am not the only recovering Reds fan here, so I self-indulgently put together an all-time team of players who plied their trades at both ends of the Buckeye State.
Please feel free to criticize or remind me of obvious choices I left out. This mostly comes from memory and unsystematic searching.
My ideal here was to find players who did reasonably well for both teams. This is not always possible at each position. In difficult cases, I went with the overall best player.
In any case, a stroll down memory lane.
C - Bo Diaz
Represented both teams in the All-Star Game, making for an easy choice over The Immortal Joe Azcue, who barely played at the major league level for the Reds.
1B - Joe Adcock
I invoked the "best player" rule in a confusing three-way race. Adcock was a promising young player with the Reds, a medicocre older player and failed manager with the Tribe. Gordy Coleman and Fred Whitfield were both solid starters for their teams in the 1960s. But Coleman was a minor leaguer when traded from the Indians and Whitfield essentially a LH pinch-hitter in two seasons with the Reds.
2B - Johnny Temple
The fiery leadoff man played the bulk of his career in Cincinnati, but also was an All-Star with the Indians. Alfred Manuel Martin put in a season with each team. (Active players were ruled ineligible for this position.)
SS - Leo Cardenas
Choice over Frank Duffy via the "best player" rule. Cardenas was a perennial All-Star in Cincinnati, but pretty much washed up by the time he arrived in Cleveland in 1973. Duffy was the regular SS for the Indians for five years, but nowhere near the player Cardenas was. Duffy played very little for the Reds, coming up as he did alongside Dave Concepcion. His true value to the Reds was that he was traded for George Foster.
3B - Buddy Bell
The easiest choice of all. Played many more seasons in Cleveland, but was still productive in his later years in Cincinnati. And he practically grew up in the Reds clubhouse. Best I can come up with as a backup here is Jeff Branson. That's a long way down from Buddy Bell, one of the most under-appreciated players in history.
OF - Frank Robinson, Vada Pinson, Alex Johnson
All three were better with the Reds, the first two spectacularly so. (All three also played for the Angels, oddly.) But Frank's historic value as an Indian carries a bit of weight. He didn't play much OF in Cleveland, but it makes little sense to have a DH on this team. If I did that, it would open up an outfield spot for Tommy Harper, but his good years were in Seattle/Milwaukee anyway.
Pinson was one of the most exciting young players in the game when he came up, but still a solid veteran in his two years with the Tribe.
Where to begin with Alex Johnson? He was a hitting machine, but had his head up his butt in the field and on the bases, and was a sulking presence in the clubhouse to boot. Shortly after he got to Cleveland, he stopped hitting, too, which didn't leave a lot to like. The Indians were the first team to tire of his act after a single season, instead of the usual two. So maybe Harper should be the choice, but this gives me an opportunity to recommend Alex's SABR biography. It's a tremendous read.
(As many of you know, Alex's brother, Ron, played a year for the Browns before being dealt to the Giants for Homer Jones, who was acquired to replace Paul Warfield. Ron had a solid career thereafter, while Mike Phipps and Homer Jones led the Browns to numerous Super Bowls in the 1970s.)
Ted Uhlaender played a little OF for both teams, as if we care. And Wally Post, who once hit 40 home runs for the Reds, was 0-for-8 in his brief Cleveland career.
LHP - Greg Swindell
RHP - Dave Burba
Dayton native Burba put in 6+ consecutive solid seasons with the two teams. Following 5+ seasons with the Tribe, Swindell spent only one year with the Reds, but he pitched well there.
The other candidates are way out of balance. Calvin Coolidge Julius Caesar Tuscahoma McLish went directly from 19-9 with the Indians to 4-14 with the Reds. Jack Armstrong started the 1990 All-Star game, but was on the scrap heap by the end of that season and was never the All-American Boy again. Milt Wilcox played a few seasons with each team before establishing himself in Detroit. George Culver pitched sparingly for the Indians, but managed a no-hitter with the Reds. Ross Grimsley was a key pitcher for the 1972 NL champs, but useless for the Tribe eight years later. Scott Scudder sucked everywhere. What might have been: The late-blooming Mike Cuellar was a farmhand for each team.
RP - Ted Abernathy
The submariner gets the nod against tough competition by having at least one excellent season as a more-or-less ace with each team. Tribe bullpen mainstays Jim Kern and Mike Jackson each pitched a season for the Reds and both did well in limited duty there. And there was Danny Greaves.
Manager - Birdie Tebbetts
Birdie actually had an overall winning record with each of the three teams he managed (Milwaukee was the other.) Jimmy Dykes also managed both teams.
General Manager - Gabe Paul
Sorry, but it's by default. Maybe things would have been different if enough Tribe fans had chanted HIRE BOB HOWSAM.
Play-by-Play - Ken Coleman
I had this vague feeling that the longtime voice of the Indians and Browns spent some time in Cincinnati. And sure enough, Ken was the TV voice of the Reds from 1975-78. Think about it, Coleman was a local announcer for four legendary teams: the 111-win Indians of 1954, the Impossible Dream Red Sox of 1967, the Big Red Machine of 1975-76, and the star-crossed Red Sox of 1986.
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Comments
This is a walk down memory lane for some of us seniors. Maybe there’s a way to find room here for Reggie Jefferson, who split 1991 between the two teams and is worth mentioning only because we traded him (along with Felix Fermin) for Omar Vizquel.
by ken from alexandria on May 15, 2008 5:59 PM EDT 0 recs
I forgot about Reggie, but I see he only had 7 ABs for the Reds.
The other guy I remembered after posting was Richie Scheinblum, who was the Indians’ perennial can’t-miss prospect in the late 60s. He landed in Cincinnati, briefly, in the trade that sent Hal McRae to KC.
by SuddenSam on
May 15, 2008 10:17 PM EDT
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I mentioned Kern, but went with Abernathy because he had multiple good seasons for each team. Kern pitched well for a bad Reds team in 1982, but was traded away before the season ended.
He also joins Duffy in “traded for George Foster” club.
by SuddenSam on
May 15, 2008 10:14 PM EDT
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A good read, and a nice trip down memory lane; thanks for doing this. As a young boy, for unknown reasons I was an Angels fan, and I remember Alex Johnson winning the batting title over Yaz. Of course, in those days it was hard to know what the players were really like, especially when you are a 9-year-old boy in a small town 2,000 miles away. After reading that bio, I’m glad I didn’t know more about him. It was the 1971 trade that brought Johnson and Gerry Moses, one of my favorite players at the time, from California to Cleveland that rekindled my interest in the Tribe.
by Fiddlesticks on May 15, 2008 7:18 PM EDT 0 recs
Among starting pitchers, I would suggest adding to the mix Dave Burba, who had 2+ decent seasons with Cincinnati and would have been their Opening Day pitcher in 1998, except that he was traded to Cleveland, where he proceeded to win 56 games for the Tribe over the next four seasons. He was not an outstanding player, but he was a steady contributor, and he should get bonus points for being an Ohio native (Dayton) who played at Ohio State.
by Deep South Ken on May 15, 2008 8:03 PM EDT 0 recs
Good point. I really liked Burba, steady was definitely the word for him. It seemed like he gave up exactly three runs in exactly 7 IP in half of his starts. We called it a BurbaStart.
by Jay on
May 15, 2008 10:10 PM EDT
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Burba was my favorite pitchers from some of those late 90’s teams. I was furious that he wasn’t in the rotation in ‘99 ALDS, but it didn’t end up mattering as Doc Gooden was tossed in game 2 early which allowed Burbs to come in and save the day
by Roger Dorn on
May 16, 2008 12:40 PM EDT
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Burba was an oversight. He can be the RHP to complement Swindell.
by SuddenSam on
May 15, 2008 10:20 PM EDT
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FYI, there’s an “Edit” button right under the article. You can update it any time you want.
by Jay on
May 15, 2008 10:58 PM EDT
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Done. There’s a reason why I sometimes space out details of the late 90s, but to explain it would involve getting into a long rant, involving the 1994 season, the Browns, taxpayer-funded stadiums, Cal Ripken, oops…..
by SuddenSam on
May 16, 2008 11:07 AM EDT
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well done
I really enjoyed the read and your research on this article after seeing it at RedReporter. Good luck the rest of the season.
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 16, 2008 10:40 AM EDT 0 recs
Of course losing BP is a sore point around here. Either you didn’t take two seconds to consider that, or you’re an idiot, or you’re deliberately provoking us. I can’t decide which.
Of course we wish we’d held onto Brandon Phillips. He’s become a very good player. How could we not wish we’d held onto him?
I was doing some searching and realized that there isn’t a long, rich history of awful trades the Reds have made. The hum-dinger is Christy Matthewson, who won a zillion games, and Frank Robinson who after being traded to the Orioles was one of the best two or three hitters in the majors for the next six years, and he won the MVP in his very first year as a non-Red. Of course, those guys are way “too big” to compare, not to mention, Matthewson was over 100 years ago, and even the Robinson trade couldn’t be remembered by anyone under 50. Thing is, other than that, there isn’t much to compare the Phillips “trade” with to show you our point of view.
The closest I could come is Paul O’Neill, and that wasn’t very close at all. The similarity is just that in both cases, the player blossomed with the new team, but at the same time, the trade was more or less understandable at the time, and it didn’t kill the team that lost the deal.
I would also say, dumping Phillips was viewed by some as a mistake at the time, but nobody (including Krivsky) could have foreseen how much of a mistake it would turn out to be. That is, when 29 GM’s have a chance to acquire a guy, and the highest bid is a low-level bullpen prospect, that’s a clear consensus that a player isn’t worth very much.
Finally, letting BP go was a mistake, but it’s seen as one of a series of moves over the past six years, moves that led to a team with a fairly well-balanced core of players expected to contend for several years into the future. Long-term, just the acquisition of Asdrubal Cabrera alone will likely be seen as a “win” that counterbalances the mistake on BP.
And basically, it’s a lot easier to forgive a mistake when your team had the best record in the majors anyway. I credit Krivsky with this and a couple of other cagey moves, but no Indians fan is envying the Reds by a far stretch.
by Jay on
May 16, 2008 12:39 PM EDT
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"an idiot"
i was under the impression that some people still held a negative opinion akin to a grudge against “The Franchise.” that seemed to be the case last year.
thanks for your opinion. guess i should have phrased the question differently.
by Daedalus on
May 16, 2008 1:43 PM EDT
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“the franchise” was annoying self-appointed nickname from a guy who didn’t produce for three years, but at this point, anyone who claims they wouldn’t rather we kept him is, I think, nuts.
by Jay on
May 16, 2008 1:53 PM EDT
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a little harsh there Jay
it seems like at the time most Indians fan didn’t care about losing Phillips one way or the other.
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on
May 16, 2008 3:10 PM EDT
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I don’t think that’s true at all. Keep in mind the decision was to keep Ramon Vazquez of all people as our utility guy over Phillips. A lot of fans had given up hope, but those same fans also probably would have rather have kept Phillips over Vazquez.
Then looking at the original question, it was “would we take Phillips back?” Anyone that would answer no is either stupid or lying.
by Roger Dorn on
May 16, 2008 3:34 PM EDT
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Hey SuddenSam
I’m the guy who put this up as a FanPost on Red Reporter. We got a little blowback because I cut and pasted your post instead of providing a link. I wasn’t trying to claim it as my own work; I was just very impressed with the post and wanted to share it with my fellow Reds fans with the minimum amount of hassle. The nature of the post makes it equally interesting to both Indians and Reds fans.
Anyway, it’s been amended and there’s a link to this post now, but it has provoked some discussion, which was my intent. Once again, very nice job. I’m looking forward to a great series this weekend. The game between Cliff Lee and Edinson Volquez should be nuts!
by Brendanukkah on
May 16, 2008 2:21 PM EDT
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oh yeah
John Denny also pitched for both teams and was pretty decent for his career.
He was also a team mate of two perfect game pitchers, Tom Browning on the Reds and Len Barker on the Indians.
Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds
by Caleb on May 16, 2008 10:58 AM EDT 0 recs
There outta be a rule about Reds fans – either current or past – having anything to do with my Indians. It just ain’t natural.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on May 16, 2008 11:07 AM EDT 0 recs
And Chuck and I remain natural enemies and all is right in the natural balance of the world.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 16, 2008 11:16 AM EDT
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how old are you?
once upon a time, the Reds were THE team in ohio and memorial stadium had 4000 fans a game. i’ll never forget a game i went to up there in ‘88 against the would be world champ A’s and the bash brothers. beautiful summer day, and you could sit anywhere you wanted. it’s the nature of baseball. teams go through cycles of greatness and cycles of seeming desolation. unless walt jocketty empties our farm system and stocks the team full of aging veteran hasbeens, we’re about to leave our desolate cycle.
i for one have liked the indians since i was a child, but i am a diehard reds fan through and through.
by Daedalus on
May 16, 2008 11:56 AM EDT
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correction
it was sept 1987 against the A’s, a year before their back-to-back-to-back ws.
by Daedalus on
May 16, 2008 12:37 PM EDT
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See you just don’t get it – no Red’s fan gets it. You’re born a Reds fan, or a Pirates fan or a Cards fan, but to truly be and Indian’s fan you’ve gotta suffer, you’ve gotta earn it. You’ve hadda sit in the stands for 20-30 of those games with less than 4,000 fans – in the cold, in the rain and hope against hope that Gus Gil’ll hit a three run shot in the bottom of the ninth with two out so you’d only lose by two.
Being a Red’s fan in the 70’s was a snap. Try being a Indians fan during the same time period and listening to all of those Reds fans belittle your home town club. I, like my hero Cliff Lee, vowed then never to forget nor forgive those front-running stunods, cuz I knew that one day – one day – my boyz were gonna be the powerhouse and those hillbilly’s down in Southern Ahia were gonna be on the bottom. And when that happened I was gonna be on the bandwagon – where I’d been since Moses Cleaveland landed on the Cuyahoga – to kick those cazzi jadrools off.
So yeah, I remember when the Reds were THE team. But now they’re not. So get the hell offa my bandwagon and go sit in that monstousity you call a ballpark and watches those gafones kick the baseball around.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 16, 2008 12:55 PM EDT
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I don’t think the Pirates were the best third example there, Chuck. :)
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 16, 2008 1:14 PM EDT
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The Pirates have been horrible for a while, but by the time I saw the Indians finish higher than 5th place even once, the Pirates had already been to the playoffs nine times in my lifetime, with two championships. Pittsburgh is a mere 15 years into its baseball suffering, which is trivial by Cleveland standards.
This is a generational difference. Anybody under 25 grew up with the Indians as a great team, and thinks of 2002-2005 as a very dark period. Those four seasons would have registered as the bright spots if you stuck them into the 70’s or 80’s.
So basically, we have a whole generation now that never really suffered to be Indians fans, they just know that Indians fandom equates to suffering from their parents, like second-generation immigrants. Although, it must be said, the Indians have served up some serious heartbreak in the past ten years, but it’s heartbreak of the so-close variety, rather than the never-at-all-close variety.
by Jay on
May 16, 2008 1:25 PM EDT
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The so close which of course was complimented by the Browns and Cavs for awhile with the never close
by Roger Dorn on
May 16, 2008 1:49 PM EDT
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Yeah, I don’t know. The whole “To be a true fan you had to have suffered” thing really rankles me. I guess that’s maybe because I don’t affiliate my sports fannishness with my, like, identity. If I’m not having fun anymore, I plan to stop paying attention. I do that sometimes when we’re winning when I’m irritated with this, that, or the other thing.
I don’t really get where people who feel that way are coming from. I mean, I get that now that the team is winning it feels like you (general you) deserve it more because you sat through all the losing, but… eh. I don’t know. It bugs me a bit.
Then again, I’m turning into one of those people who just likes baseball and is starting to drift away from really intense team affiliations. The Indians are still my favorite, but I’m a little bit soft on about half the teams in the league thanks to my traveling around, seeing all sorts of major and minor league games. so i’m probably not a Standard Fan.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 16, 2008 2:01 PM EDT
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Then you don’t get it either. And you’re missing out on the real fun. There was nothing – nothing better than my Indians beating those damn Yankees last October – nothing. But part of that joy was engendered by the suffering. You know nothing tastes as good as a cold beer when you’re parched. Now when if the Red Sox woulda beat ‘em, that’d be just OK. But for my club – my club – to crush those boobidabetz that was pure ecstasy. You just can’t enjoy it like that if your a non-Standard Fan.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 16, 2008 2:07 PM EDT
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I probably don’t. (Although the almost-there of 2005 has given me quite the hate-on for the White Sox, I think at least 75% of that is just combined hatred of Ozzie Guillen and AJ Pierzynski and is therefore only temporary.)
Then again, no one hates the Yankees like you.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 16, 2008 2:12 PM EDT
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I've read this site a little bit before
I’ve mostly just skimmed, but I consider it to be one of the best of the SBNation sites.
And up until today, I’d always scanned his name as “mauichick.”
by Brendanukkah on
May 16, 2008 2:22 PM EDT
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That was before the surgery.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 16, 2008 2:34 PM EDT
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Jay and Ryan run a pretty tight ship but it generally improves the quality. Tons of smart commenters too. (I’ve really dug some of the threads I’ve read over at Reds Reporter, by the way. Don’t read it as much as I probably should, though.)
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 16, 2008 2:36 PM EDT
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I’ve only been following the team as a die-hard since 2003. I’ve never known suffering. I’m just as much an Indians fan as you are, Chuck.
by Voltaire on
May 16, 2008 6:57 PM EDT
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Let’s not play that game. If you’re an Indians fan then we got solidarity bro. If not then we don’t.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 16, 2008 7:20 PM EDT
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i never got to see the big red machine
born in 77. but i don’t see the need for your attitude. it’s not like former reds fans are jumping all over an indians bandwagon. i’m sure there are some, especially in the columbus area, split about equidistant between the two cities. maybe you should jump on some of the new indians fans (who were never fans of either team) that were never around until the team started winning. (and then returned when the team started winning again.) i’m already angry at the new reds “fans” that will start filling the ballpark again when our young guys come of age.
i was what, ten when i went to my first indians game in cleveland. not exactly jumping on some bandwagon. some of us are diehard reds fans first, baseball fans second. how is it not natural to root for the other team in your state, too? (unless you live in new york.)
regardless, the reds have had seven losing seasons in a row and are sitting in last place now after a slow start. people are talking about the lack of attendance. we are suffering through the longest losing streak since before WWII, so yeah, i know what that’s like. i was in 8th grade when we won our last world series.
you people are in first place right now. i don’t understand where the hostility is coming from. that’s not as a reds fan, it’s as a human being. i’ve always enjoyed going to games in these series (at both stadiums) because of the lack of animosity in the stands between fans of the two teams. i see that may be changing. how sad.
by Daedalus on
May 16, 2008 1:38 PM EDT
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how is it not natural to root for the other team in your state, too?
Wow, amazing. Ask a Phillies fan how he feels about the Pirates, ask a White Sox fan how he feels about the Cubs. Better yet ask one of our Browns fans how he feels about the Bengals – or Sam Wyche for that matter.
And it’s not changing – me and my friends have disliked the Reds since Bench, Morgan and Rose – can’t stand ‘em. We do, however, save our hatred for the Yankees. You probably don’t get that either.
Here’s an idea. Wear your Reds hat to one of the next Cleveland home series and report back. I’ll be disappointed in my fellow Tribe fans if you don’t get your chops busted.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 16, 2008 1:48 PM EDT
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I think there is a difference with the Indians/Reds thing in that they are in different leagues, so it’s less anathema for some people to feel positively about the other team, especially if, like me, they grew up in Disputed Territory.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 16, 2008 1:50 PM EDT
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Have to agree with Ang and Daedalus on this. I’ve always been mildly a Reds fan, and I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone other than Chuck who finds it objectionable.
by Jay on
May 16, 2008 1:55 PM EDT
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Well in your travels around the East Coast if you should bump into a guy driving a 2006 black Pontiac GTO with Maryland license plates that say “GOTRIBE” ask him how he feels about the Reds. He makes me look like Sparky Anderson.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 16, 2008 2:01 PM EDT
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Ah – so we can aspire to the levels of excellence of British (actually European) football fans, who riot in the streets and engage in pitched battles with opposing fans (sometimes resulting in death). Viz the recent embarassment in Manchester involving Scottish fans. That’s why I go the ball game, fer sher. I don’t feel hostility to fans—only teams (unless the fans are obnoxious individuals who earn my hostility).
I grew up a Mets fan (sorry) and hated the Yankees with a passion (still do) – I think New York is another place where people have strong loyalties to one team and animosity to another. I’ve converted completely to the Indians, but feel no comparable animosity to the Reds - more indifference. I’m told by friends whose jobs require their driving around the state that there’s a movable boundary part-way down the state - loyalties shift with the fortunes of the team, with people supporting the Reds when they’re good, the Indians when the Reds are bad. Anyone have a similar (or different) perception of Ohio, the swing state?
by peter m on
May 16, 2008 2:16 PM EDT
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It’s certainly true around Lima, OH. Although get much further north and you start getting into Tigers territory.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 16, 2008 2:17 PM EDT
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Whoa hold up there Pete. Who’s advocating violence here? Certainly not me. It must be the expression idiomatic, "chops busted". I know it sounds violent, but it isn’t. I believe the origin is from the Chinese practice of using a stamp or "chop" to authenticate one’s signature. You know they’d stamp a document with their chop or seal. When one had lost one’s right to own property the government would "bust your chop". That’s the way I heard it anyway.
So when I talk about "busting chops" I mean given you a hard time. A good example was my recent voyage to Yankee Stadium to watch my Tribe destroy those pinstriped strutzes. I got a lot of grief from the Yankee fans for being and Indian fan and living in a hellhole like Cleveland. And lots a crap about how bad my team has been for almost a century while their club was the most successful in all of sports. You know the usual Yankee fan BS. So they were, "busting my chops" about being an Indian fan. But at no time – none – was I threatened with violence. Not a hint, not an implication not even a remote implication. So no, I am not and never will advocated physical confrontation over anything as trivial as a baseball game. Cuz, you know, it’s all allegorical and stuff.
But the movable line thing – yep you’ve hit on the source of my irritation. I was going to post-graduate school at Ohio State during the Big Red Machine dynasty. All I heard was Reds, Reds, Reds and how bad the Indians were. So I’ve been conditioned to dislike the Reds and revel in their incompetence. But you know it’s just baseball, nothing personal.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 16, 2008 2:33 PM EDT
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Explanation accepted. Me no speak so good the English, I guess. I just get embarrassed when I see “fans” at the Tribe games pick fights with people from out of town, most of whom were just engaging in normal cheering for their team. The Red Sox fans who show up in Cleveland are pretty hard to take, to be honest, but one must be nice to lower beings. So says PETA, anyway.
by peter m on
May 16, 2008 2:44 PM EDT
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regardless, the reds have had seven losing seasons in a row and are sitting in last place now after a slow start. people are talking about the lack of attendance. we are suffering through the longest losing streak since before WWII, so yeah, i know what that’s like. i was in 8th grade when we won our last world series.
just wanted to touch on this part of your comment a little bit. As Jay pointed out, there are plenty of Gen Xers or younger who don’t recall the lean years that was Indians baseball. But for us older ones (and chuck still has me by a few years), we all remember just how bad the Tribe used to be.
From 1957-1993, the Tribe posted a winning record a grand total of 8 times. That includes one 2nd place finish in 1959, one 3rd place in 1968, 5 4th place, and the rest 5th or worse, many of them being dead last in the AL/Division.
Now I didn’t see a lot of those years, I started paying attention to the Tribe right around 1975, so I still got to see about 20 years of sucky baseball in my lifetime, all of it back to back. Not to mention the All-Stars we traded away before they were good (nettles, Chambliss, Guerrero to name a few). Our front office gave away most of our good prospects for peanuts. And the ones who did do something with the Tribe promptly got dealt or disappeared from prominence pretty quickly.
So forgive me if I don’t feel sorry for you when you’ve had 7 years of losing records to digest. Your torture has not been long enough or severe enough to match. The Reds were dominant in the 70s and most of the 80s, early 90s. So no, I don’t feel sorry for your current struggles. At least you can recall your last championship, which most Cleveland fans cannot.
by talonk on
May 16, 2008 3:53 PM EDT
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Sorry, no dice my friend. Your team actually made the Super Bowl twice. Yeah they sucked for quite a bit in between and since, but we actually lost our team for a few years AND had to be an expansion team on top of it. Would I trade with you? No. But don’t try to tell me you’ve had it worse then Browns fans.
by talonk on
May 16, 2008 5:27 PM EDT
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Not wanting to get in a pissing match with you
I’m just saying that we know from sucky.
by Brendanukkah on
May 16, 2008 6:02 PM EDT
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No Reds fans get it huh?
I was born in 1991… so I’ve had my fair share of suffering through the Reds without any retribution through playoff berths…
People Don't Kill People. Burning Couches Kill People.
by crolfer on
May 16, 2008 4:42 PM EDT
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Exhibit A. This post is gonna look like I used a sock puppet to prove my point.
No, you clearly don’t get it.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 16, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
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Chuck, all it’s looking like from here is “it’s real suffering when I do it, but when you youngins do it it’s just whining.”
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.
by AngG on
May 16, 2008 7:08 PM EDT
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See you think I’m makin’ this all about me. It’s not, it’s about the history of this franchise. Hell, Yankee fans still bring up stuff – all the RINGZ don’t you know – that happened before they were born. Same here. Somebody once said that Herb Score has seen more bad baseball than any one else on the planet. I agree.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
May 16, 2008 7:22 PM EDT
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Hey Chuck, I’ll respond to you down here since I was gone all day yesterday and this thread went all Maxxim.
I completely understand your position. Being an Indians fan in Reds’ country in the 70s would have been a special kind of hell. I have a friend here in Arizona who actually became a Phillies’ fan, of all things, while stationed at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton because he thought they had the best chance to knock off the Reds. He was tired of hearing about it.
My story is different. I grew up in both cities. I attended my first Reds game in 1958, first Indians game in 1963. I have always been a Browns fan. At one time I was a fan of something called the Cincinnati Royals. My mother was from Cleveland, my father from northern Kentucky. Whichever city we lived in, we often travelled to the other.
There was always a rivalry between the two cities, but it didn’t really become a sports rivalry until 1970. I was happy to see Cincinnati and Paul Brown get a team, but once the league was re-aligned it was time to take sides and my side was the Browns. I lived a number of years in Dayton, which is solid Reds country but which had, at least back then, a substantial (and vocal) Browns minority. I became a sub-species of Browns fan, the kind that hated the Bengals more than the Steelers. Of course, hating a team means hating its fans, and Bengals fans were Reds fans, but I just dealt with it.
We may have been part of the same throng of 4000 a time or two at the Stadium. But I can’t equate my suffering with yours, as I had another team and, eventually, that team provided a spectacular payoff to its fans.
Do you realize that, until Edd Roush was picked by the veterans’ committee in 1962, there wasn’t a single player in the Hall of Fame that “wore a Reds cap?” So you can hardly blame Reds’ fans when they got a true Golden Age and a raft of great players to rival what the Indians had in the deadball era and in the 40s-50s era. No wonder they still can’t stop talking about it. (Hey, did I ever tell you about how Don Gullett would have won the Cy Young if it hadn’t have been for Larvell Sugar Bear Blanks?)
Anyway, I gave up sports after the tragic events of 1994-1995. But then the fates made the Indians good for the first time in my memory, so I watched Tribe post-season games religiously, but that was the only thing that interested me about sports for years. Still is, pretty much. I was pissed off about so many things. I only started seriously following baseball again in 2004, and that’s because I’m a news junkie and the news was too damn depressing, so I started gravitating to sports sites. Basically, sports came to suck, but then the real world sucked more, so the sucky sports world became a refuge.
As for Herb Score, if he hadn’t taken that line drive, he would have seen lots of good baseball. That’s because Frank Lane would have traded him to the Yankees.
by SuddenSam on
May 17, 2008 3:07 PM EDT
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Agreed that the sorry state of a lot of things in general is a good reason to obsess about baseball.
The Big Red Machine gets talked about a lot because not only are they one of the game’s great dynasties in terms of their achievements as a team, but they also included several players who are truly historic in their own right. Rose is the all-time hit king, Bench and Morgan arguably are the greatest ever to play their positions — I’m not saying it’s definite, but they are absolutely in the top two or three with a good argument for #1 — plus latecomer Tom Seaver was the greatest pitcher of his generation. They won six MVP’s in eight years, among four different players — Rose, Bench, Morgan and Foster. Has that ever even happened before?
by Jay on
May 17, 2008 3:43 PM EDT
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You’re just trying to get Chuck started, right? And what have you done with the Maxxim girls?
It should have been seven MVPs for three players. Morgan should have won in 1973 and 1974. Morgan led Rose in every offensive category except BA in 1973 and obviously was superior defensively. I won’t even discuss Garvey.
by SuddenSam on
May 17, 2008 4:30 PM EDT
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You can’t even avoid getting Chuck started. When he makes up his mind about something, he’s just impervious to common sense.
by Jay on
May 17, 2008 5:15 PM EDT
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