SBN Blog-Off: The Battle Of Ohio
Since we are all part of one big SBN family, two writers from Red Reporter (Rick House) and Let's Go Tribe (Jay) decided to see if we were capable of having a friendly conversation about our teams. What the hell, at least we tried.
RR: How much does it suck that we have Brandon Phillips and you don't?
LGT: You really want to start there? Okay. I admit it, it sucks pretty bad. We got took, but then we took the Mariners a few months later to get Asdrubal Cabrera -- very similar package of skills, but younger, and still a bit raw. But anyway, it sucks.
LGT: How did you guys feel about Krivsky getting the axe? Did you ever get a fix on whether he had any idea what he was doing, running a ballclub? He had a couple of these miraculous moves with Phillips and Hamilton, but then he kind of seemed like an idiot outside of those.
RR: You'll find a lot of mixed feeling about Krivsky. He did some stupendous things -- picking up Phillips on the cheap, getting Josh Hamilton (who he parlayed into Edinson Volquez) for practically nothing -- but he did some incredibly stupid things -- The Trade (Felipe Lopez and Austin Kearns for relievers), signing Rheal Cormier and Mike Stanton to substantial deals, passing on Tim Lincecum in the 2006 draft. But the strange thing about his firing was the timing. We were all ready to fire him last year, but a dozen or so games into the season seemed like a really odd time to hand the reigns over to Jocketty. In the end, he did show a severe lack of direction (notice we have 4 centerfielders, none of them any good, and three catchers, ditto, and no decent right-handed bats off the bench), but I think he was improving toward the end of his tenure. It was his first job as the head guy, and I think he showed a decent learning curve. I expect to see him at the helm of another team.
RR: How much does Travis Hafner's slow start worry you? He's a big, hulking 31-year-old dude, and we've seen players of his stature and prowess suffer severe declines at similar ages. Last season was a disappointment, but from an outsider's perspective this year is shaping up to be a disaster.
LGT: Oh, it's already a disaster. He was a very mediocre hitter for more than half of last season, and this season he's been terrible. Just awful to think about how his contract would have been expiring at the end of this season had we not given him that huge extension — and one of the key reasons behind the Indians' success in rebuilding has been avoiding those big contracts that kill you. At this point, he's apparently looking at totally re-tooling his swing. I will say, however, that I think comparisons to other similar players collapsing have been very superficial. For the most part, he gets compared to slow, immobile DH types with low averages, guys like Mo Vaughn. That's not Hafner at all — he's always been a capable baserunner as big guys go, and he was an all-around great hitter, with high averages to go along with the take-and-rake stuff.
LGT: So, how sick are you guys of Adam Dunn? Is it like this constant debate, where half the fans love him and half the fans hate him, and each half thinks the other half is a bunch of idiots? And can we please have him? (Just think about how great Josh Barfield could be as a Red.)
RR: That is the most worn-out conversation on our site, in our city and among our fans. Many (most?) fans don't understand how valuable he is as a hitter and just consider him a terrible fielder who strikes out way too much. He's very unique, but he's been our best hitter over the past 7 years or so, and many of us adore him. That said, I don't think there are many people who think we should re-sign him, given his age (29 next year), likely decline (105 OPS+ so far this year) and likely a huge salary demand (which he's earned). So we're ready to part ways. I don't know that we match up for a trade, though... We need prospects of the following talents: a catcher who can hit; a right-handed power-hitter (preferably an outfielder); or a left-handed starter or two. It doesn't look like your farm is set up in that direction, although...
RR: So what do you have to offer for Adam Dunn (or Ken Griffey Jr. for that matter)? And do you want any of our other players?
LGT: I already told you: Barfield for Dunn. Dunn is off to a shaky start, and you can't be hoping to sucker anyone in a trade for Dunn, because all the sucker GM's will be afraid of his strikeouts. We are willing to take him off your hands and give you Josh Barfield, though, who should thrive once returned to the Mickey Mouse league, not to mention that ridiculous bandbox you're playing in. Doesn't seem like you have any other players worth having, frankly.
LGT: Speaking of which, you guys have fluked into two wins over us now, and I was just wondering, are you really enjoying this at all? Or is it kind of hard to work up any enthusiasm, knowing your season is going in the toilet anyway? Have you pretty much written off the rest of the decade once Dusty Baker screws up all your young pitchers?
RR: Josh Barfield is putting up some monster numbers in the International League: .255/.301/.392/.693. Thanks, but we'd rather have Drew Carey in the infield. *Our* second baseman's not too bad, anyway. And yes, five wins in a row have felt great. We haven't given up hope that we can win the NL Central, with our young and kickass rotation and some reinforcement bats on the way. Also, our closer doesn't give up walk-off home runs. As for Dusty's reputation for mistreating young arms, let's just say that claim is underdeveloped overused.
RR: What the hell happened to your farm system? You didn't graduate any of your top-10 guys from last year but still dropped 9 spots to 19th in Baseball America's rankings. Adam Miller's in Triple-A for the third straight year, and Beau Mills looks less than impressive in Class A Kinston. Is it nerve-wracking knowing there's no help on the way from the farm?
LGT: Nerve-wracking? You must have us confused with a team that has to fight for fifth place in a six-team division that's so bad, the Cubs are considered good. Hell, if the Reds were in the AL, they wouldn't even be above .500. Oh, wait a second ... I gotta be honest with you, we're not really sweating the farm system, considering we won 96 games last year and 20 of our players are under 30. Anyway, Baseball America isn't even sophisticated enough to rank our farm system -- that's why we got major contributions last season from three prospects who didn't even MAKE our Top 10 -- Laffey, Lewis and Cabrera. But there's no way you could have known that, since you didn't have any reason to watch the playoffs last year.
LGT: Anyway, you tell me -- which of your players should we have any interest in? And let's get serious for a second here -- let's say we were willing to send you Kelly Shoppach. Young catcher, great defense, genuine power threat. He'd be a starter on most teams, ask anyone. Moving beyond your overpaid rentals and our half-busted prospects, what could we do for real, significant moves on both sides? Because Shapiro and Jocketty have done business before, we are natural trading partners.
RR: Good point about playoffs. By the way, do you know anybody who was out of diapers the last time the Indians won a World Series?
LGT: Haha, well played, my friend. I'm surprised you even knew that they still hold the World Series. Something else you may not know is that teams are allowed to send more than one player to the All-Star Game — it's true, you could look it up. You know what you could do, drive on over to Kentucky, maybe you can get someone there to show you how to look stuff up with a computer, right after he teaches you to read. No offense intended, of course. I really respect the illiterate, you have so much courage.
LGT: So anyway, I guess I was right the first time, you don't have anybody worth trading for, huh?
RR: We have a lot of players on the chopping block, and some are even worthwhile. If you want an extra outfielder, take a look at Ryan Freel. If you want a good outfielder, you can have Dunn or Griffey if the price is right. If you want a major league-ready starting pitcher, check out Bronson Arroyo. If you want a pitching prospect with ace potential, we might be willing to part with Homer Bailey. Shoppach's shown good power in the minors, but he's 28 and I'm not sure he's much different than David Ross.
RR: What are you looking forward to the most: Our ERA leader striking out 10, or our hitters proving what kind of a pitcher your ERA leader really is? (No, seriously, Cliff Lee is not that good, right?)
LGT: Sadly for you, Cliff Lee really is that good, and he's enough of a badass that he might just throw at Phillips all day long — it's not like baserunners can score on him anyway. It actually should be a great matchup, one that any baseball fan should savor. But to answer your question, what I'm looking forward to the most is getting the hell out of Cincinnati. And you can take that however you want.
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Comments
yes, please, give us Bronson Arroyo.
thank you, he is now 13th on our starter depth chart.
by still ill on May 18, 2008 1:01 AM EDT 2 recs
Very nicely done, Jay. But I can’t believe you let him slide by with the phrase “very unique.”
by Denver Tribe Fan on May 18, 2008 2:18 AM EDT 0 recs
Seriously. I hate degrees of one-of-a-kind.
my helmet has, like, no pine tar on it.
by joeee on
May 19, 2008 9:15 AM EDT
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Typical. Crappy team harkens back to the glory days of 1990 since of course they won the World Series much more recently than us
by Roger Dorn on May 18, 2008 3:02 AM EDT 0 recs
I would gladly take Homer Bailey. Shoppach + AA talent? Although I don’t want you to think I’m starting a rumor.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on May 18, 2008 9:31 AM EDT 0 recs
Shoppach would be darn useful on the Reds, that’s true—catcher, right handed hitter. Plus he’d hit like 25 dingers in that park.
by fleerdon on
May 19, 2008 8:51 PM EDT
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I wish I knew how to embed youtube videos.
Anyway, I found the soundtrack for this conversation:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nwrHR_nowUo
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on May 18, 2008 9:43 AM EDT 0 recs
Every time I hear that song I think of “Kingpin”. I actually bought the ELO CD many years ago just so I could listen to that song whenever I wanted…I do so frequently.
by The DiaTriber on
May 18, 2008 9:59 AM EDT
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If you get a chance next time, ask him how a new ballpark looks like it imported a scoreboard from 1992. I was expecting a begoggled photo of Alex Cole to appear at any minute on there.
by Fundamentals on May 18, 2008 10:25 AM EDT 0 recs
Firing Krivsky and hiring Jocketty was a terrible, terrible move.
I expect Jay Bruce, Homer Bailey, and Edinson Volquez to be traded for an aging veteran any day now.
And they really want to question our minor league system? They won’t even have one once Jocketty gets going.
by gahnki on May 18, 2008 12:48 PM EDT 0 recs
is the Tribe throwing this inter-league series in order to trick Reds into thinking they’re contenders and trading Jay Bruce for Paul Byrd’s big-game experience? that’s the best explanation i can come up with for the last two games.
by still ill on
May 18, 2008 1:23 PM EDT
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i just can’t believe the Tribe just got swept by the Reds not on purpose.
by still ill on
May 18, 2008 4:28 PM EDT
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You know, some folks from LGT (and I in particular) have been known to visit other joints and engage in a little smack-talk. But I can’t remember even one time, ever, when even the most juvenile and jerky LGT’er felt the need to go taunt the fans of a team we just beat in a series.
Winning is supposed to be enough. Pretty sad.
by Jay on
May 18, 2008 5:36 PM EDT
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this is their world series. the rest of the year for them will be telling stories about how they swept us at great american and how they have brandon phillips.
by Brick. on
May 18, 2008 5:49 PM EDT
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How they swept the World Series champions at great american
by Denver Tribe Fan on
May 19, 2008 1:37 AM EDT
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This manufactured rivalry sucks
I’m as diehard of a Reds fan as anyone, but I really loved the Indians teams of the mid 90s too. It was never bad to have a team to root for in the opposite league. I don’t understand why everyone has bit on this MLB farce of a rivalry. Bengals/Browns is one thing because they are in the same division, but Reds/Indians should not be a rivalry. I understand KC/STL and the NYY/NYM rivalries because they played each other in the World Series and they are in close proximity.
I’m glad the team I rooted for swept the series, but Go Tribe the rest of the season (except June 27-29).
by buckeye22fox on May 18, 2008 5:49 PM EDT 0 recs
Thank you. Good luck to the Reds the rest of the way, you have some promising talent
by Roger Dorn on
May 18, 2008 5:50 PM EDT
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i think the interleauge thing should take a break for a little while, then show up from time to time to keep it interesting.
by Brick. on
May 18, 2008 5:51 PM EDT
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How about a six week break until the Reds and Indians meet again?
I suspect that that series could go very differently.
by Gray on
May 18, 2008 7:20 PM EDT
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The Bengals will always be hated in Cleveland. Old-timers like me hate them because of Paul Brown and the color orange and the initials C.B. and that whole foofaraw back in the day. Younger folks will never, ever forget or forgive Sam Wyche. Young’uns dislike the Brandon Phillips-esque wide receiver. And then there’s the divisional thing, but I think that’s secondary.
None of that exists with the Reds. I don’t feel any particular sense of rivalry between the Reds and Indians. I think an Indians/Reds World Series would be nice.
by Fiddlesticks on
May 18, 2008 6:09 PM EDT
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Indians/Reds WS would be great for Ohioans, but a nightmare for the networks. I dunno why, but I found in my travels that Ohio teams are the least liked or cared about by fans of other teams. They take some kind of perverse joy in rooting against us or avoiding watching.
by elsandito on
May 18, 2008 7:07 PM EDT
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Television viewership would number in the tens of thousands!
by Gray on
May 18, 2008 7:12 PM EDT
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I don’t know, I see lots of Indians merch on the streets of Philly, always have, and even this year, there’s almost as much as the Red Sox.
As for the networks, MLB needs to stop worrying about the networks. Get as much money from them as you can, but baseball isn’t a national sport. It’s a local sport — one that’s popular in almost every significant locality in the country. It makes no difference how popular the Indians are with a national audience, as long as the Indians are popular in Cleveland, the Bisons are popular in Buffalo, the Aeros in Akron, etc., for all 30 major league markets and over 100 minor league markets.
That’s where the heart of the game lies, and that’s where they have always made their real money and always will. Even now, the immense success on the Internet has nothing to do with people wanting to watch a dozen games per day. It’s a million guys who want to watch whoever their favorite team is, like the Indians, from wherever they happen to be, like New Zealand.
by Jay on
May 18, 2008 7:22 PM EDT
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I’ve seen a fair amount of Indians garb in Philly in my seven years here, enough that I don’t do a double-take when I see it (unlike the Reds). But the amount of Red Sox merch is something else; I’ve probably seen more Boston hats than NYY this year. Both are equally offensive.
by ken on
May 19, 2008 9:18 AM EDT
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I quite agree. The Reds were my second-favorite team growing up — a distant second behind the Indians, but a clear second.
I think it’s fine for there to be a rivalry, but not every rivalry has to be Ohio State/Michigan or Browns/Bengals. There is such a thing as a friendly rivalry, and in the big picture, the Reds and Indians have a great deal more common cause than the mere six games we compete over.
by Jay on
May 18, 2008 7:17 PM EDT
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What’s your prediction for tonight?
I couldn’t care much less who wins (nothing against the teams, I just can’t get into the NBA), but I wonder what the mood is in cleveland.
by Gray on
May 18, 2008 7:43 PM EDT
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My prediction for tonight is that fans of the Cavs, who already watched their team lose Game 7 around 6:30, will be sullen.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
May 18, 2008 7:50 PM EDT
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Wait a minute…
I discovered this network of sites containing information, like, say, the score of the cavaliers-celtics game.
Pretty amazing stuff.
by Gray on
May 18, 2008 7:58 PM EDT
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The Worldwide Leader never ceases to amaze me either.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
May 18, 2008 10:00 PM EDT
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I don’t get that in Canadia. In its place, there’s something called TSN, which makes no worldwide claims—only “Canada’s Sports Leader.”
by Gray on
May 18, 2008 10:03 PM EDT
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Gracious, how do you find out Who’s Next?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
May 18, 2008 10:12 PM EDT
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Alright Mr. Canuck, the Tribe-Reds series is over, time to move along now. Go enjoy your hockey gold medal over the Ruskies….oh wait…
(sobs in corner)
by supermarioelia on
May 18, 2008 10:28 PM EDT
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I never said I was Canadian…
But my point, insofar as I had one, was that perhaps it is possible to have a useful/interesting conversation with fans from other sites. Maybe.
by Gray on
May 18, 2008 10:31 PM EDT
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He wasn’t bashing you or telling you to leave. He just wanted to comment on the fact that the Russians beat down the Canadians yesterday.
by gahnki on
May 19, 2008 4:51 PM EDT
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Oh, I realized that. It was actually big news up here! It was a close, hard-fought game, though…kind of like the games in this series.
by Gray on
May 19, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
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Wait, so you are Canadian? Or just live in Canada? Please note that I’m Canadian so none of this is meant as a lure into a joke.
by supermarioelia on
May 20, 2008 12:32 AM EDT
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Anyway, “move along” means “get some new material” around here.
by Fiddlesticks on
May 19, 2008 7:23 PM EDT
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Even the Browns and Bengals match up isn’t that interesting. Probably because the teams are never good at the same time and most times they both suck. But I’ve found that professional rivalries pale in comparison to college ones. There is a more emotional connection to a college you attended than a pro team you root for.
by gahnki on
May 18, 2008 9:55 PM EDT
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Depends on the college. You won’t see me starting up a Penn Quakers blog.
by Jay on
May 18, 2008 10:12 PM EDT
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My experience with (major) college rivalries (mostly based on Michigan-OSU and Alabama-Auburn) is that 98% of the passion comes from people who did not attend one of the colleges. Practically everyone in my neck of the woods is a vociferous Ohio State fan, and I’d estimate less than 5% of them went to any college at all.
by Fiddlesticks on
May 19, 2008 1:05 PM EDT
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We’re very rural around these here parts. Those with college educations tend not to be the dyed-in-the-wool OSU partisans, they’re much more likely to have a more measured response.
by Fiddlesticks on
May 19, 2008 7:26 PM EDT
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Yea, that’s quite low.
And the Ohio State-Michigan rivalry is on another level. It has so much more to do with each state than the university.
I was commenting more on something like Harvard-Yale or other rivalries like that.
And Harvard-Yale take that game very, very seriously
by gahnki on
May 19, 2008 4:53 PM EDT
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Interesting give and take. I like how the Reds guy says that we don’t match up for Dunn even though 3 of the Reds needs are “a catcher who can hit” and “left handed starting pitching”. What exactly would Shoppach, Laffey, and Sowers be exactly? Not that I don’t agree that Shoppach isn’t older or quite have in mind or that we’d ever trade Laffey at this point.
by cheech99 on May 18, 2008 10:48 PM EDT 0 recs
Sorry… meant to say 2 of the 3 things he says they need.
by cheech99 on
May 18, 2008 10:48 PM EDT
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If Shoppach were younger, he might be valuable, but the Reds already have Bako and Ross, who’s only three years older—and in small samples, both are hitting better than Shoppach.
Sowers didn’t exactly look impressive last year or this, and you guys aren’t going to part with Laffey any time soon, are you?
by Gray on
May 18, 2008 10:56 PM EDT
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the indians have won one more game than the reds this season
the superiority attitude is unwarranted.
by Daedalus on May 19, 2008 12:29 PM EDT 0 recs
Your math is off
x = 1.5(y)
x = AL win
y = NL win
So congratulation on geting 4.5 wins this weekend, but you’re still behind.
by Toxicadam on
May 19, 2008 12:51 PM EDT
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By your math
Doesn’t that mean you lost 4.5 games this weekend? So you’re still only one game ahead.
"My wife ain't never ran and got me no pheasant." - Fistbands
by BK on
May 19, 2008 2:05 PM EDT
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And what’s worse, is a sports blog is the last place I’d expect to find unwarranted chest-thumping.
by Fiddlesticks on
May 19, 2008 1:08 PM EDT
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I agree. Most chest-thumping on sports blogs is backed up by shoals of data and rational argument.
by peter m on
May 19, 2008 1:20 PM EDT
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I’m just glad it’s easy to spot the guest due to their use of the subject line.
by Voltaire on
May 19, 2008 2:24 PM EDT
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Ok ok .. I’m actually a Washington Senators fan .. I just don’t have anywhere else to go.
by Toxicadam on
May 19, 2008 2:36 PM EDT
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We have the worst hitting team in the AL so far and still won more games than Cincy. BWAHAHAHAHA
by elsandito on
May 19, 2008 4:26 PM EDT
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you came to cincinnati in first place
and left a game and a half back BAHAHAHAHAHA
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on
May 19, 2008 4:34 PM EDT
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Oh no. Not a game and a half back. It’s not like we could be in first place in two days or anything crazy like that.
by gahnki on
May 19, 2008 4:55 PM EDT
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yes a game and a half back is much better than being in first place
contratulations
In the end, life and business are about human connections. And computers are about trying to murder you in a lake. And to me the choice is easy.
by chandrathan on
May 19, 2008 5:02 PM EDT
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