Trade Everyone! - The Infield
| TRADE EVERYONE! an epic survey in six parts |
|
| 1 | The Starters by Ryan |
| 2 | The Infield by Jay |
| 3 | Wait. What? by Andrew (afh4) |
| 4 | The Prospects by Adam (APV) |
| 5 | The Outfield + Pronk by Ryan |
| 6 | The End by Jay |
July 18, 2006:
Most fans at this point are sick of the entire Indians roster, and who can blame us? I don't know if everyone on the roster is "on the table" for trades, but a part of me would like to think that there is no option for improving the roster that Shapiro wouldn't consider. That nobody is untouchable.
In theory, nobody is untouchable. With the right offer of players and/or money, there is no player in the game who can't be had in a trade. It's just a question of making the right offer. So why not consider it?
Funny how we feel exactly the same way, even though the circumstance is very different. As of that day, in some ways, the Indians had been out of the race for two months — seven games behind the division lead on May 8, 10.5 games behind on May 26, 17 games behind on June 25. By July 18, the deficit was 21 games, and the Wild Card outlook was hardly any better. Sabathia spent April on the DL, both Betancourt and Cabrera appeared damaged by the WBC, and if it were possible to make a train out of a sieve and then wreck it, then you'd have a really good metaphor for our infield defense. We ditched Phllips in favor of Vazquez, but my mid-May we'd already demoted Vazquez in favor of Lou Merloni.
It got real late, real early, but at the same time, the team made the best of that moment's clarity. Unlike the Expos in 2002 or the Mariners in 2006, we were so clearly out of it that there was no temptation to hope or pretend for another 30 days — not for the players' sake or for the fans. So there was no reason to make any plays for the current season, and there was a great chance to improve the team's prospects for 2007 and beyond. We had already traded Eduardo Perez and were on the verge of trading Bob Wickman — deals that eventually produced two key players for the 2007 stretch run.
This season is different. We have a slightly worse record based on a different combination of failures, but the division and Wild Card races have not run away form the club entirely. Seven weeks of intermittent struggles left the team improbably in first place, up by 1.5 games, only to fall into a disastrous run of 2-10. Now 5.5 games behind — but only 5.5 games behind — the Indians are in a division that appears mediocre enough to be won by any decent team, should one emerge. But can the Indians be that team? Should we reconfiguring for a drive, or reconfiguring for next season?
Will we decide to be the 2006 Indians again ... or the 2006 Mariners?
RYAN GARKO
$420K salary, signed through 2008, controlled through 2012
- PRO - Could be one part of a significant trade — scouts and managers love his grinder approach and mentality, and GM's will love his contract status, which has him still making the minimum in 2009.
- PRO - Struggling at 27, he's very unlikely to peak at a level much higher than his 2007 numbers.
- PRO - 1B is arguably emerging as a position of depth — Aubrey and Brown may be reasonable options for first base in 2009 and 2010, and they fit better into a C/1B rotation with Martinez and Shoppach.
- CON - Young, cheap players with reasonably good production are the lifeblood of a good roster.
- CON - Wouldn't clear significant payroll space, now or over the next couple of years.
- CON - Might be selling low on a player who's struggling.
ASDRUBAL CABRERA
$393K salary, signed through 2008, controlled through 2013
- PRO - Should be recognized as equivalent to an elite prospect, given his track record, and so should get a significant return. Billy Beane no doubt still very interested.
- PRO - Would have greater value to a team without an established shortstop, or with a shortstop in his walk year.
- CON - Probable high-quality player and potential impact player over the next six seasons — and cheap.
- CON - Weak overall depth in the middle infield.
- CON - Best defensive player in the entire organization, with no close second in the majors or high minors, high-leverage asset for a team that may well feature the most extreme groundball rotation of all-time over 2009-2010.
- CON - Uncertain long-term viability of Peralta at shortstop.
- CON - Hard to imagine a viable trade scenario where trading him wouldn't be a huge mistake.
JHONNY PERALTA
$2.25M salary, signed through 2010, controlled through 2011
- PRO - Presents the best out of all our struggling hitters — shortstop on pace for 33 HR, barely 26, with postseason heroics, under reasonable contract for three more seasons.
- PRO - Would be considered a viable 3B option by many teams.
- PRO - Would allow team to reconfigure middle infield for better defense in light of groundball-heavy rotation.
- PRO - Likely will be seen by the Indians as merely a reasonable value towards the end of his contract.
- PRO - Not a fan favorite, probably the most significant asset the team could trade while minimizing backlash; local shills would eagerly endorse the deal.
- CON - Lack of overall middle-infield depth, likely would have to acquire at least one player (2B) if we traded him.
- CON - Unclear if Asdrubal Cabrera will hit well enough to stick in the majors in 2008 or 2009, even if moved to shortstop.
- CON - Production possibly can't be replaced at less than twice the price.
- CON - Barely 26, likely will bounce back to higher production, and may have a significantly higher peak left in him.
- CON - Clutch, generally has been immune from team-wide slumps or postseason pressure.
- CON - Would be the first case of trading someone considered to be a core player, unclear how that would affect future dealings.
CASEY BLAKE
$6.1M salary, signed through 2008, controlled through 2008
- PRO - Versatile player with veteran clubhouse rep, apparently considered a clutch performer in some circles, could be considered a significant trade piece in a tight market.
- PRO - Unlike in 2006, team has viable major-league options at each of his positions.
- PRO - Despite slump, may well be selling high.
- PRO - It's his walk-year anyway, and his $4M in remaining salary is high enough to want it gone, and yet low enough to attract most suitors — and low enough to consider eating it to get superior talent coming back in a deal (a tactic heavily employed by Shapiro in past deals).
- PRO - Using Marte at 3B would upgrade the infield defense.
- PRO - Would create opportunity to play glut of rookie corner position players — not just Marte, but also Choo, Francisco and Aubrey — and may have no downside in terms of overall production.
- CON - Uncertain whether Marte can hit well enough to stay in the majors without being a significant hole in the lineup.
- CON - Overall depth at 3B in particular is not good.
ANDY MARTE
$392K salary, signed through 2008, controlled through 2012
- PRO - If some team actually wants him, and is willing to assign any significant value to him in a trade package, it may well be the best offer we ever get for him, as many scouts are quite down him at this point based on his 2007 performance.
- PRO - Shapiro seems committed to Wedge, and Wedge seems incredibly un-committed to Marte — possibly facts not made public influencing the club's evaluation of the player.
- PRO - Some injury history, and despite outstanding track record as a young minor leaguer, has never looked "above" Triple-A pitching, not clear he can hit above replacement level in the majors.
- CON - Uncertain what his ceiling is, has never gotten significant opportunity as a major league hitter.
- CON - Unlikely to get offered anything significant and would save almost no money.
- CON - Would be jettisoning a player under inexpensive, low-risk, team control for the next 3-4 seasons.
- CON - Would have to sign a free agent or trade for someone to play 3B in 2009 and possibly 2010, nobody major-league ready at that position.
- CON - Brandon Phillips.
JOSH BARFIELD
$416K/238K split salary, signed through 2008, controlled through 2013
- PRO - If some team actually wants him, and is willing to assign any significant value to him in a trade package, it may well be the best offer we ever get for him, as many scouts are quite down him at this point based on his 2007 performance.
- PRO - Value to team roster would plummet to zero if the team acquired a 2B, which is a logical target to upgrade. Barfield's bat doesn't work at any other position, and his glove doesn't work as as utility player.
- PRO - Might still be seen as a viable major leaguer by some teams, particularly in the NL.
- CON - May well be selling low, as bat/glove may well return to league-average levels given another opportunity — would be jettisoning a player under inexpensive, low-risk, team control for the next 3-4 seasons.
- CON - Unlikely to get offered anything significant and would save almost no money.
- CON - Weak overall depth in the middle-infield, can't expect help from the minors until 2010 at the earliest.
MICHAEL AUBREY
$380/60K split salary, signed through 2008, controlled through 2014
- PRO - Could we convince Billy Beane that he wants Aubrey as much as he wants Cabrera?
- PRO - Incredibly persistent injury history, scouts report significantly diminished skills from his heyday as a prospect, has never produced good numbers above Single-A.
- CON - Already has more HR than Victor.
- CON - Is a reasonable option if Garko is traded, fits well into platoon with Martinez and Shoppach.
- CON - Young, cheap, under control for many years, still one option left.
JAMEY CARROLL
$2M salary, signed through 2008, controlled through 2009
- PRO - Useful player, high-quality defender who could be attractive to a "fat" contender looking to shore up weak depth.
- PRO - Not a significant long-term piece.
- PRO - Would create opportunity to work Barfield into a two-position rotation with Cabrera and Peralta, which could be somewhat optimizing.
- CON - Weak overall middle-infield depth, would only make it harder to demote Cabrera, as probably is needed.
- CON - Possibly undervalued in trade market, probably as valuable to the Indians as to any team.
- CON - It's harder than it looks to find a quality bench/platoon middle infielder — see also Vazquez, Rouse — and Carroll has a perfect, club-friendly contract.
- CON - No more sweet baboo.
IN GENERAL: There's a lot of reason to think about reconfiguring the entire infield. Garko has been disappointing and never had a high ceiling. Cabrera's bat doesn't work at 2B. Peralta has provided high-value production but seems unpredictable, he's fringy at shortstop, and his bat/glove package may not play any better at another position. As for the others, would anybody really care if they left?
It would seem to behoove the team to make a series of moves aimed at upgrading the infield defense. Not that it's bad, it's fine overall, but the club likely will get over 200 starts from now through 2010 out of three extreme groundball pitchers, Westbrook, Carmona and Laffey — 260 starts if they're all healthy. Our best defensive configuration right now is Aubrey, Carroll, Cabrera and Marte — which notably looks nothing like our Opening Day infield. It also looks notably like our best offensive configuration, but that idea of "best" seems highly questionable at this point. If the infield's hitting isn't as good as we thought, or even is merely highly uncertain, that too is a reason to start giving defensive issues more consideration. (Amazingly, Wedge might actually be realizing this himself.)
That provides a rationale for moving even younger players like Garko or Peralta — let alone short-timers like Blake — but the truth is, without those guys, we don't really have the horses. Shifting guys around still leaves us with projected mediocrity, and worse hitting than before. We could move Garko with little risk or downside, but moving Blake leaves us a little exposed — and if we move both of them, we'd have to be thinking about getting someone who can play 3B off the bench, either with more glove than Blake or more bat than Carroll, for 2008 and beyond. As for the middle infield, we can't really trade Peralta without acquiring a substantial second baseman — and if we do that, we might as well ship Barfield out, too.
Ironically, we have a number of players worth trading in the infield, but we're also in the market for infielders who can make a difference. Infield defense sank the team in 2006, but it could make a huge positive over the next several seasons — and in this one. There are opportunities here to make a series of moves that improve the team in three ways: By bringing in a quality player, by replacing a weak player in the lineup, and by shifting one or two others into roles where they can be more valuable.
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A short graphical interpretation of me as I read this article:
:\
:(
D:
D:
D:
Who knew I was that attached to our infield?
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on May 29, 2008 1:55 PM EDT 0 recs
Which is not to say I don’t think it’d be a good idea to trade one or two of these guys. I’ve just gotten kind of emotionally overinvested in a few of them.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on
May 29, 2008 1:59 PM EDT
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don’t worry. no one understands your strange hieroglyphics, anyway.
by Brick. on
May 29, 2008 2:42 PM EDT
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Translator’s note: [Increasing horror.]
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on
May 29, 2008 3:02 PM EDT
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I have to say that the italicized bold D is pure genius.
But why do the eyes switch sides?
by Denver Tribe Fan on
May 29, 2008 5:31 PM EDT
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Real reason: Because :D means something very different than D:
Better reason: I was so horrified I had to go stand on my head.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on
May 29, 2008 5:35 PM EDT
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Peralta: “local shills”?
With 3 extreme GB starter, we can survive with a plus defense and mediocre offense from our infielders. Problem is, we aren’t even getting mediocre offense now from that infield.
Peralta doesn’t fit on a team with those kinds of starters unless he can play third or first as well as the the guys who are there now. Maybe that’s it, we move Peralta to first base (assuming he can field the position). That gives us an infield of Marte, Cabrera, Carroll/Barfield and Peralta.
by elsandito on May 29, 2008 2:14 PM EDT 0 recs
until one or more of carroll, barfield and cabrera can hit AT ALL, peralta’s offense suits us just fine at SS. the desire to move him from that position becuse he doesn’t dazzle like omar has to be number 2 (to brandon phillips) on the list of things i’m tired of hearing about – at least until we’ve got 3 middle infielders that can hit – then, we can go ahead and pick between the best fielders.
by Brick. on
May 29, 2008 2:48 PM EDT
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I completely agree with this. You guys want to make a real splash, replace AsCab’s offense with a league avg. hitting second basemen. Moving around Peralta isn’t going to save us that many runs. If we upgraded the defense at third base (i.e. lets try that Marte kid, instead of Mr. Blake aka “I can’t get to ground balls hit to my left”) we’d make a similar defensive improvement and not lose much on offense.
by hans on
May 29, 2008 2:55 PM EDT
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I can certainly see trading any of these infielders except, perhaps, Cabrera. In his case, I think he may really be a really good shortstop and he’s young enough that he might learn to hit adequately. If that’s the case, trading him would be an error, in my view.
Peralta and Garko are probably trade-able and I can see situations in which that would make sense. Peralta is a streaky hitter with power and an adequate but not strong fielder. If he could be traded (undoubtedly with others) for an upgrade at another position, it might be a good gamble, since we can move Cabrera to short if need be. I think the most likely scenario, though, involves 1B, where Garko isn’t hitting enough to justify playing him regularly at a power position and where there is no reason to expect him to get substantially better (given his age and his swing). I’d certainly be happy to trade him if we got something worthwhile in return (not sure that will happen) or to package him with other(s) to get a viable corner outfielder or an upgrade at one of the infield positions.
Aubrey, Carroll and Blake are spare parts, so they’ll not bring much. Whatever.
Marte is an odd situation. I’d be inclined to play him in the hope that he raises his stock—then, at least, you’d have something worth trading. He may turn out to be a total loss, but I don’t think he’s going to bring much now, so there’s no real harm in hanging on to him.
Overall, I agree that it would be good to upgrade the infield defense (especially at the corners). But, an OFFENSIVE upgrade at the corners might be an even greater priority, since the adequate infield defense we currently have seems to be good enough to keep us in games (and it’s not the primary reason why the team is losing so much).
Does this post signify the beginning of “we’re now building for the future” (as opposed to trying to win this year?)
by peter m on May 29, 2008 2:53 PM EDT 0 recs
If we fall out of serious contention (and I am by no means saying we have or are close to), one of the few upsides is that it might lead to Marte getting the PT we need to evaluate his long term prospects.
by Denver Tribe Fan on
May 29, 2008 3:33 PM EDT
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I agree with you there. I don’t think it makes any sense to showcase Marte for trade. If he produces, then he stays and he plays. If he sucks, then he’s probably about as valuable as he is today.
I don’t see a scenario where good play by Marte means he gets flipped.
by steincat on
May 31, 2008 10:18 AM EDT
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Actually, it looks as if Wedge is serious about playing Marte more right now. If he makes himself trade-able, I could see how they might move him in a larger deal that brought back a different third baseman. But, I agree that it’s not the most likely outcome here.
by peter m on
May 31, 2008 10:29 AM EDT
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I would tend to agree, except that this is exactly what the Indians don’t do—ever. They don’t trade a young guy with 1-2 years of service time and then bring in someone older and more expensive. I can’t think of even one example when they’ve done that. You’d have to go back to dumping Giles while acquiring Justice.
by Jay on
May 31, 2008 4:39 PM EDT
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I would mention Wes Hodges as a possible third baseman, perhaps even by the end of this year. He’s been on a tear of late, and it would not be surprising to see him in Buffalo by July. While a 10 months younger than Marte, the Indians will probably push him along to see what he’s got.
This goes to what has been most annoying about the Marte fiasco: I think this is the year to find out what we have in both Marte and Hodges. Give Marte playing time now, and if he is not up to the task, aggressively promote Hodges to maybe be the third baseman next year.
by JesseAK on May 29, 2008 3:04 PM EDT 0 recs
With an .870 OPS in AA, Hodges is looking more and more like the real deal. That’s why we need to find out about Marte now. If I’m Shapiro, I want to trade Peralta for a legit 2b. Blake and Barfield don’t have enough value to bring anything decent in return, and Droobs represents the future at ss. 1b will take care of itself. You’d think somewhere we could find someone to give us some production out of the DH slot. Ugh.
by ken from alexandria on
May 29, 2008 3:35 PM EDT
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Currently a three team deal is being worked out. I am being traded to the Phillies, two Phillies fans are being sent to the Rays, and all 3 Rays fans are being sent to the Tribe. I don’t like the deal and would block it if I could. Besides, I’m a little insulted that I am only worth 2 Phillies fans.
The logical trade in my mind involves Peralta. However as my coach used to say, “saying someone has potential means they haven’t done anything yet.” Shapiro cannot logically move Peralta until Marte and Barfield show something, rather, anything more than what they have been showing.
Someone said, “Boo even numbered years.” I’m booing as loud as I can. If I passout, make sure to wake me before spring training.
proverbial "moron in a hurry"
by 94neverout on May 29, 2008 3:16 PM EDT 0 recs
Except for Cabrera, there’s no one I’m attached to in our infield. I would object to the lack of overall depth at 3B. We don’t have a lot of major-league ready talent right at this moment, but as far as offensive positions go, it’s one of our more hopeful positions over the next 2-3 seasons (or sooner) to produce something good out of the minors.
by APV on May 29, 2008 4:28 PM EDT 0 recs
I’m attached to AC, as well as Garko. And I’m attached to the only power hitter we have, only because he’s our only one – not because he has a F’d up name spelling, chronic laziness, corrected vizzshon or can’t hit breaking pitches.
The 2008 Cleveland Indians: Home of the Triple Steal, Unassisted Triple Play, and not a heck of a lot more.
by westbrook on
May 29, 2008 4:53 PM EDT
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I like Peralta, but if we’re talking about trading infielders, I think he’s one of the few guys who a) can reasonably be traded, and b) we could expect a decent return on. I wouldn’t see us getting much for any of the others (excluding Cabrera)...even Garko.
by APV on
May 29, 2008 5:11 PM EDT
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I think we are thinking about depth in slightly different ways. For this series, I’m talking about depth in terms of having a really solid option for 2008 and 2009, maybe 2010. For a guy in Double-A, if he isn’t utterly Kouzmanoffing the league, or kicking major ass at age 20, then he isn’t a solid anything for 2009, he’s a maybe for 2010.
Possibly there is a little too much enthusiasm here for a high-800’s OPS by a 23-year-old in Double-A (and without even getting into the fact it’s only two months). A guy like that is a good prospect but not a great one, has a good shot to be a big-league starter but is far from a lock — and most important, is almost certainly not going to be ready for the majors by the end of the season.
Looking for comps who were: (a) exactly 23, (b) in Double-A, (c) were in the high 800’s … it’s hard to find exact matches, but some reasonably similar recent ones I found were Ryan Church, Ryan Goleski, Ben Francisco, Ryan Garko and Brad Snyder.
by Jay on
May 29, 2008 5:43 PM EDT
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I agree with you in not getting too excited about Hodges because he is 23 and doing well but not great at AA. He is still not as good as Marte in the field and certainly not a Longoria or Zimmerman type 3B prospect. I bring him because, in comparison to the middle infield, he is at least a viable option going forward. As you said in the post, there is really nothing up the middle coming through the system right now. Josh Rodriguez? Jared Goedert as a 2B? There is much more to like in Hodges than these guys. Trading Jhonny will force the team to make a subsequent move to get a 2B, and for the money the team has you’re really hoping that turns into another Ronnie Belliard. (But with better defense since we’re envisioning a defensively-strong infield.)
So I am coming down on the side of keeping Jhonny and Asdrubal up the middle and then clearing room for the corners to work themselves out. Marte and Hodges at third, and Aubrey, Garko, and Jordan Brown at first. Which means Blake is the odd man out. Doesn’t really make us contenders this year, does it?
by JesseAK on
May 29, 2008 6:26 PM EDT
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I wouldn’t argue that Hodges is a “great” prospect, but I’m not persuaded by all of your comps. I think maybe Garko is the only one who played successfully as a 23-year-old in AA in his second year as a pro. By Cleveland standards, they’ve been aggressive with Hodges, and so far it’s paying off.
by ken from alexandria on
May 29, 2008 7:37 PM EDT
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Respectfully, you’re being highly selective — picking out the one guy whose comp suits your desired view of Hodges. I named several comps to present a cluster of similar players, some a little better or worse, some a little older or younger.
Garko in fact did better than Hodges (so far) at a few months younger, and he did it in his first full season, as well as his first season of full-season ball. Garko’s six weeks of short-season rookie ball, while not totally irrelevant, is hardly comparable experience to Hodges putting in a full season at Kinston, two levels up. Garko was also a catcher, although that only matters in the sense that he had to put a lot of time and energy into that part of his game.
Overall, Garko was slightly better, slightly younger, and slightly less experienced than Hodges is now. Garko is the best case scenario, but even if we assume Hodges will progress like Garko, and further assume that Garko could have been effective in the majors to start 2006 — elevating him in April rather than July — that schedule still puts Hodges in the majors to start 2010, not 2009. Garko is a good comp for Hodges, but the other four are equally good comps.
by Jay on
May 29, 2008 11:25 PM EDT
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The thing about Hodges is that he’s competing successfully at Akron in May of his second pro season, and Garko provides the best precedent for that. I recognize that Hodges’ ETA is 2010, but based on his performance so far he has a better chance than Snyder, Goleski, Francisco, and Church of actually being an everday major leaguer. A month from now, Hodges could be at Buffalo, and then, like APV, I wouldn’t see a 2009 arrival as out of the question.
by ken from alexandria on
May 30, 2008 8:34 AM EDT
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You didn’t say anything here that you hadn’t already said, so my response is the same: Your attachment to Garko as a comp is highly biased and can’t be justified on the facts. This “second pro season” argument — where does it come from? Looking at full seasons — outside of rookie ball — is more meaningful than “pro seasons.” After the first full season, the “pro experience” factor is not relevant — and age is completely relevant.
The main thing is, it’s an imperfect comp — you could say that Garko achieved a lot more in his first full season, but he was a year older. Or you could say that Hodges is doing just as well as Garko at the same age, 23, but he’s had more time to adjust to pro ball with wood bats than Garko had.
Does Hodges have a better chance than Snyder, Goleski, Francisco and Church? Only in hindsight. Turn back the clock to when those players had their first success in Double-A, and you’d find plenty of optimism about their projections, too. Snyder was a top-rated prospect, ranked #72 in the world, Goleski was attractive enough to earn a Rule 5 pick, Francisco is now playing every day, and Church has achieved more than anyone on the list, including Garko.
If you’re looking to justify your excitement about Hodges, you’ll just look at Garko. If you’re really looking for fair comps based only on their first exposure to Double-A, you’ll consider all five. None are exactly like Hodges as hitters, but they all are similar.
The irony of this is that Hodges has a chance to be the best hitter of the bunch, but he also has a chance to be … one of the bunch. And the original point I was trying to make was just that even looking at the most optimistic comps, the team cannot be expecting to use him on the big-league club in 2009 — and I can more or less guarantee you that they’re not.
Here are his top PECOTA comps: Tripper Johnson, Brent Clevlen, Mike Bell, Gabe Alvarez.
by Jay on
May 30, 2008 10:46 AM EDT
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tripper johnson is one of those decidedly baseball names. either that, or he’s a porn star.
by Brick. on
May 30, 2008 10:51 AM EDT
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None of those other guys was in AA in May of their second pro season. The only reason that’s important is that I read it as evidence that they’ve pushed Hodges a little more aggressively than the guys you want to compare him to. It’s the fact that he has held his own (plus the element of desperation, given that the farm system is otherwise devoid of position-player talent at the higher levels) that justifies some excitement.
I think we’ve arrived at the point where the late Hal Lebovitz would raise the stakes to something like a sarsparilla soda. I say he’s a major leaguer by the All-Star break, 2009. I’ll remind you when the time comes if I’m right, and will conveniently forget about it otherwise.
by ken from alexandria on
May 30, 2008 5:21 PM EDT
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My notion of depth is that there’s a not completely unreasonable chance (~10-20%) that a guy like Hodges could step in next season and not be a complete black hole. Something like Peralta in 2003 (although, admittedly, he was something of a black hole then). A similar probability that by 2010 he’s an average MLB 3B. Smaller probability that that time table could be pushed forward a full season (1-5%). So by depth I suppose I mean it’s not completely unrealistic that you could find a serviceable in house option. Maybe not the most likely outcome, but not impossible.
by APV on
May 30, 2008 5:28 AM EDT
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I agree with the Peralta 03 comparison, and I agree with your odds. Thing is, though, having that avaialble for 2009 is basically a non-asset for the big league club — in that season — because if they’re willing to settle for that performance level, they can find a minor league veteran to plug in with little difficulty — Andy Gonzalez for example. They plugged in Peralta because, what the hell, let’s see how he reacts?, but they would have yanked him had they felt it was hurting his development. Would they settle for that in a contending year? Doubtful.
by Jay on
May 30, 2008 10:51 AM EDT
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The asset is in potentially advancing the player’s development and, obviously, whatever you get in return from the guy(s) you traded that forced him into the lineup in the first place. I’m not sure you put Andy Gonzalez out there if a) you think Hodges can be a major league player in the next 2-seasons and b) you don’t think you’ll hurt his development by throwing him out there
by APV on
May 30, 2008 12:11 PM EDT
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Adding…the problem with guys like Gonzalez typically isn’t their offense, but their defense. If we had a guy with above-average infield defense, even if his bat was terrible, he’d probably already be our utility infielder. Gonzalez brings something in the range of terrible to sligtly sub-par offense with not good defense.
by APV on
May 30, 2008 12:12 PM EDT
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I’m assuming we’re looking to contend in 2009 and possibly still 2008.
by Jay on
May 30, 2008 12:17 PM EDT
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so am I…although at some point the calculus for 2008 might change
by APV on
May 30, 2008 12:19 PM EDT
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So what you’re (I’m?) saying is:
TRADE BLAKE
Move Jh to htird bhase
Marte becomes Jh’s backup at third, Jh is Droobs’ SS backup, HIRE ROBERTS for 2b, and Garko/Aubrey/VMart platoon at first
The 2008 Cleveland Indians: Home of the Triple Steal, Unassisted Triple Play, and not a heck of a lot more.
by westbrook on May 29, 2008 4:50 PM EDT 0 recs
No. I’m actually saying, if there valuable chips that we can get in a trade, I think that there is a decent case for moving any of them, except Carroll and Cabrera.
Combining value and potential, if we could get good value back, I think ideally we’d trade Garko, Peralta and Blake — but we’d need to acquire a quality starting 2B for 08-09, possibly ‘10, as well as a quality backup 3B/1B. If we can’t get value for Peralta, we trade Barfield instead.
It’s strange to trade Blake and look for a quality backup 3B/1B - which is Blake - but part of the issue with Blake is not just Wedge’s reluctance to “utilize” him, but the fact that he won’t be available to us to play that role in 2009, and that’s the role we really need. Someone will give him a Dellucci deal to play 3B, and hopefully it won’t be us, and he’d be crazy not to take it.
by Jay on
May 29, 2008 5:13 PM EDT
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I am very opposed to moving Peralta. He is only 26, he has some of the best power on the team, and he is a good bet to improve his current BA/OBP relative to the others on the team this year. The casual fan doesn’t like Jhonny because he is sort of an anti-Omar, but he is one of the few position players on this team that I feel good about their future at the moment, moreso than Asdrubal even. If Asdrubal doesn’t pan out on offense (which I don’t believe will be the case), then we basically have John McDonald part 2, who is valuable, but obviously not as valuable as Jhon Peralta.
Trading Garko makes the most sense to me and I think there are GM’s out there that would be willing to give up something valuable to get him based on his performance last year offensively.
by Roger Dorn on
May 29, 2008 5:52 PM EDT
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I am a big Jhonny fan myself, I’m just recognizing some key facts about him. One, he’s more tradeable because he’s a premium hitter at shortstop and possibly above-average at 3B. Two, the contract situation is highly favorable, while at the same time we’ve already gotten the best of his “young and cheap” value out of him. Three, if we could trade him for equal value, there would be ancillary benefits in the form of maximizing the value we get out of other players, most notably Cabrera, but also Carroll and potentially Barfield as well.
by Jay on
May 29, 2008 6:04 PM EDT
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Your points are good ones, I just don’t want the team to start overthinking it and trade away our actual productive players under the assumption that we are maximizing the value of players with potential that haven’t actually done it like Jhonny has. If he were 30, I’d be more inclined to listen
by Roger Dorn on
May 29, 2008 6:07 PM EDT
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I guess the part that I’m kind of glossing over is, this assumes that we’re making a good deal for Jhonny, i.e., that we’re getting back a player just as valuable, but who is perhaps a better fit in terms of our other assets.
I will admit that there’s an element of the tail wagging the dog in that statement — considering Jhonny a “fit problem” when he’s one of the more productive players on the team, ergo, we should really be more worried about fitting players around him than vice versa. So possibly I’m the only one doing the overthinking.
I probably am overly swayed by two basic conclusions that I’ve made. One, that infield defense over the next few years will be of greater value to us than to other teams. And two, that Cabrera is pretty much a lock to become a quality major-league regular, and the only real question is, how good how soon? If you believe those two things strongly, as I do, then even if you like Jhonny, as I also do, it’s hard not to consider him tradeable.
by Jay on
May 29, 2008 6:30 PM EDT
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am i nuts to be highly concerned with AsCab’s offense? clearly, he’s the best defensive infielder in the organization, but i’m worried we’re looking at another rey ordonez here…the guy’s not really been successful at the plate at any level, has he? isn’t this peformance more of a reversion to the mean after a potential outlier last year (in both the minors and the bigs).
he’s still young, though, so i’m holding out hope. but i need some more convincing… someone show me a large sample size, say 30, of positive examples…
by DontCallMeJoey on
May 29, 2008 7:00 PM EDT
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The Rey Ordonez comp is not a good one, http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=10752.
Compare that with Asdrubal, http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=2088.
by ClarkM on
May 29, 2008 7:13 PM EDT
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This is the problem with you fantasy league thinkers. You want to plug players in like so many spare parts. What the deuce does Rey Ordonez have to do with our situation? When you have 3 sweeeet GB extremists starting for you, the most valuable commodity is an acrobatic SS. This has absolutely nothing to do with Omar envy. If Peralta can play a corner position, even at a mediocre level, I’m fine with his power. But, if you leave him at SS, when you could have moved him to a corner, it’s crazy with these pitchers.
by elsandito on
May 29, 2008 7:14 PM EDT
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You want to plug players in like so many spare parts
isn’t this exactly what you’re suggesting doing? move jhonny, somewhere, anywhere. who cares if there’s no one left to play 2B and now we have even more too many corner infielders to get enough playing time because now SS has the best fielder possible…. you’re arguably optimizing SS at the sacrifice of 2B and 1B/3B.
by Brick. on
May 29, 2008 7:24 PM EDT
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My rearranging of the defense isn’t what fantasy leaguers do. They are willing to accept any defensive arrangement to get productive bats into the lineup.
by elsandito on
May 29, 2008 7:28 PM EDT
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but it probably hurts the defense too. not every grounder goes to shortstop.
by Brick. on
May 29, 2008 10:02 PM EDT
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Every team will put the better defender at shortstop, barring external factors. That’s been the conventional wisdom for many decades, and nobody it’s never been seriously challenged. Everyone knows that more grounders go to shortstop. What’s the controversy here?
by Jay on
May 29, 2008 10:52 PM EDT
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i’m talking about the external factors – primarily being a) what to do with peralta and in turn what to do with whoever used to be there and b) what to do at 2B now that asdrubal isn’t there. i think the sum of these factors is obviously why things remain as they are and until those change, i don’t see much point in clammoring for it.
by Brick. on
May 29, 2008 11:40 PM EDT
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Well, let me be clear, I’m not in favor of getting rid of Peralta. I am in favor of making the best deals possible, and there are upsides to dealing Peralta assuming there is a good deal to be had anyway.
by Jay on
May 29, 2008 11:44 PM EDT
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yep. and we got on a tangent, which i appologize for – the whole GET PERALTA AT 3B clamor drives me nuts sometimes. i’m all for the moving (position or team, though i love him being an indian) and slide asdrubal over if there’s answers of what to do with the other pieces – answers not related to jessie barfield.
by Brick. on
May 29, 2008 11:48 PM EDT
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you know who we could put at 2B? Pablo Ozuna. That’s who.
by Brick. on
May 29, 2008 11:51 PM EDT
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Yeah, but — I don’t want to shock you here — Barfield’s potential to be the answer at 2B has been really underrated. I’m fully leading the charge to describe how terrible he was last season, offense and defense, but he was a slightly above-average 2B with the bat in 2006, and he was significantly above-average with the glove. If you check out the the numbers at THT, you’ll find he’s slightly above average in RZR among all 2B, but also that he got the fourth-most out-of-zone outs. That is a solid second baseman, and we shouldn’t rule out that Barfield can find that player again.
by Jay on
May 29, 2008 11:57 PM EDT
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hey, i’m all for an above average/06 barfield. just not the 07-08 rendition. i’m not ready to punt on him and very happy he has options left.
by Brick. on
May 30, 2008 10:07 AM EDT
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I don’t think anybody is suggesting that it doesn’t matter who plays 2B in particular. But there should be no question that shortstop is more important than second base, and both are significantly more important than third base. Given the choice between optimizing one of the three at the expense of the other two, all else being equal, you would always choose to optimize shortstop. You could call it the Vizquel/Baerga Principle.
I don’t agree with elsandito that it’s “crazy” not to move Peralta into a corner, but if he and Cabrera are both going to play every day anyway, long term, you’d like to see Cabrera at shortstop. Again, this is all else being equal.
by Jay on
May 29, 2008 10:50 PM EDT
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right. agian, all i’m saying is that all things aren’t equal, at least not yet.
by Brick. on
May 29, 2008 11:41 PM EDT
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