What about D?

by JoeyBelleRedux on May 6, 2008 7:42 PM EDT

I know that offensivly the tribe has looked attrocious, bad approaches, no patience, etc. for most of the season but, why is there not more discussion about therir defense?

I do not get to watch any games that aren't on national T.V. being in LA but, I do listen to Hegan and Hammy and am constantly infuriated by their defense. It seems they are in poor position before the ball is in play, they take poor routes to the ball and take forever to transfer and throw.

Obviously it starts at Third with the Chin, but Garko is below average at first, Peralta has little range and does not turn the DP well at all. Victor as good at the plate as he is still has problems controlling baserunners (which is a problem shared with pitching). RF and CF are solid but it remains to be seen if whomever they put in LF can pull their weight.

Ever since Wedge ball began the fundimentals, including their hitting approach, baserunning, and defense have been terrible and they don't seem to be getting better anytime soon.

Does anybody else feel this way or am I just crazy for thinking that they give up a run or two a night based on either inadiquate or downright poor defense?

JBR

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Comments

I don’t think you should be posting a screed about defense when you haven’t seen any games and haven’t even bothered to research any statistical information.

I think you should get the Extra Innings package and watch some games.

by Jay on May 6, 2008 11:00 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Didn’t Screed just come out with a new album? Or was that Snickleback? I haven’t been listening to the sradio much.

by fleerdon on May 7, 2008 8:47 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Worst. FanPost. Ever.

by supermarioelia on May 6, 2008 11:30 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Oh, no, there’s been some even worse than this. I can’t think of any off the top of my head, but I’m pretty sure.

by Jay on May 6, 2008 11:54 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Definitely, but hyperpole is fun.

by supermarioelia on May 7, 2008 12:21 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I’m still trying to figure out how to pronounce “inadiquate.” I think it’s in-ad-ee-QUA-tay.

by fleerdon on May 7, 2008 8:50 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Another argument for the no-posting for your first week on the site.

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on May 6, 2008 11:56 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Ever since Wedge ball began the fundimentals, including their hitting approach, baserunning, and defense have been terrible and they don’t seem to be getting better anytime soon.

Welcome to 2006. Or was it 2005?

by Ryan on May 7, 2008 12:06 AM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Or was it 1993?

by Jay on May 7, 2008 12:33 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

No wonder why he likes Casey Blake so much.

by gahnki on May 7, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Every time I see this I think it’s Larry Walker.

by afh4 on May 7, 2008 6:26 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Goodness, Larry is apparently very happy to be on the cover of SI.

--
Right now, I'll take .500 and run. I'm a cheap happy.

by vbc3 on May 7, 2008 6:32 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I’m convinced it’s actually Rafael Palmeiro

-Erik

by drerikbrady on May 8, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Thank You

for pointing out my ignorance. I was wrong to question the adequacy (fleerdon thank you for pointing out my spelling error in such a graceful manner) of the indians defensive prowless in 2008. Next time I will come more prepared to speak on issues I clearly have no understanding of. As for the Extra Innings package, if it means I have to listen to Matt Underwood say “gone to souviner city” or anything else for that matter, I think I’ll pass.

by JoeyBelleRedux on May 8, 2008 3:35 AM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Ah dude, chillax. This is like joining a fraternity, we’re all bro’s here – you know we all belong to the great fraternity of Indians fans. So you got hazed a little – so what? You’re from Cleveland right? So we know you’re at least tougher than a Waffle House steak – right? So hang out, have a beer, listen to the rest of us make asses of ourselves and then join in the fun. Two rules: don’t insult any of us, cuz, you know we’re all gentlemen here and two: don’t bore us. Other than that, rave on dude, rave on.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 8, 2008 6:49 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Still, calling it the worst post ever was a little much.

by DixonCayne on May 8, 2008 6:58 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Agreed – I shoulda said somethin’ then.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 8, 2008 7:08 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

you’ll get there. hang around and get a feel for the place.

by Brick. on May 8, 2008 10:07 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

You’re welcome.

Underwood is far from the worst. Most of the folks posting here live outside of Cleveland, just like you, and eventually ante up for Extra Innings or MLB.tv. If you have DirecTV, you get to choose your own broadcast.

Bottom line, there’s no substitute for direct knowledge. If you’re not watching, you might learn something by learning about the most advanced defensive metrics. But it doesn’t make sense to just come in here and quote what Hammy is saying. I love Hammy, but if I want Hammy’s opinion, I’ll get it from Hammy.

by Jay on May 8, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

It’s not you, JBR—I’m serious, I would’ve done that to anybody. It’s just a needle, man, not an elbow.

by fleerdon on May 8, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

A couple of beefs with the original post. Peralta, while not having great range is actually regarded as being able to turn the DP pretty well, due to his strong arm. Victor hasn’t had problems with controlling the running game since 2006. Also, the defense is likely to be better than it was last year as we have upgraded at two positions, right and second. Blake hasn’t looked great so far this year, but he was decent last year and his backup, Marte is regarded as a good defender. Garko appears to still be a work in progress at first, but he is probably no worse than average. Dellucci is not a great defender in left, but he Carlos Lee and Adam Dunn, he is not. Last year, according to BP’s Team Defensive Efficiency, we were 16th, and I would expect our defense to be a little better this year. I would say our defense, while maybe not a strength, certainly isn’t a glaring weakness.

by ClarkM on May 8, 2008 8:24 AM EDT reply reply 0 recs

I agree with you on Peralta turning the double play. He was 4th in starting double plays and had the 2nd most turned double plays in the AL.

But Casey Blake was below avg. as a third basemen and was particularly poor going to his left. We can do alot better than Blake defensively at third.

by hans on May 8, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

You got a lot of talents, Casey, but hangin’ a louie isn’t one of them.

by William Gerard Nahorodny on May 8, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Thanks for the link. I am not entirely certain on the pros and cons of the different fielding metrics, I just know that they all have them. I am willing to be persuaded on the virtues of one metric over the others. FWIW, FRAA and RZR liked Casey’s defense, but Chris Dial’s metric hated it. When the metrics aren’t in harmony, I tend to go with general observations and it seemed that last year most people were saying his defense was decent. My eyes, which I give little weight thought he was adequate as well.

by ClarkM on May 8, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

RZR liked Casey last year but also reported that he was making far fewer out-of-zone plays than his peers.

His RZR was among the worst 3B in baseball in 2004, as it is this year so far.

He’s not good.

by Jay on May 8, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Oops, I figured that the out-of-zone plays were incorporated into the ratings. I guess that’s why you shouldn’t cite stats that you don’t understand completely.

by ClarkM on May 8, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Actually, I suspect what is happening is that the team’s inability to score runs just magnifies defensive miscues way out of proportion.

However, as ClarkM just said, many of your assumptions about our defense are just flat-out wrong.

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on May 8, 2008 10:48 AM EDT reply reply 0 recs

I’d say he was off on half of his assumptions. Both Blake and Garko aren’t very good defenders (mostly because of range for both and Blake’s difficulties fielding to his left). But Vic is not a problem, Peralta can turn the double play with the best of them, and Dellucci is one of our best hitters.

by hans on May 8, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Garko showed average range last season, and I expect his 2008 numbers will end up about the same. I think he has the potential to be slightly above average at 1B, and there have always been signs here and there that we benefit from his catcher skills, particularly on pop fouls.

by Jay on May 8, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I’m occasionally amazed by Garko’s ability to stretch.

by emd2k3 on May 8, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

He’s quite limber for a big guy.

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on May 8, 2008 1:54 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

purely speculative and subjective, but his weight loss over the offseason . . . has it created a better defensive first baseman with less power?

by macasson on May 8, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I can give you that he can be avg. to potentially above avg., once again we are talking about different defensive metrics though so some of them had him worse than others. RZR was about avg., OOZ had him as below avg, but not horrible, and David Pintos had him as below expected and below avg. for 1B last year.

I know the naked eye can lie, but I bet if we had a list of 40 times for each of the Indians players, we would likely find Garko as one of the slowest Indians on the team, theoreticaly this should effect his range (along with instinct development, which for him is also a negative since he was a catcher for most of his minor league years). I think he can field the balls hit to him well, develop his instincts as a first basemen well (improve positioning on hitters and response to pitch location, etc.) but I expect his physical limitations to hinder his range somewhat. Its less of a problem with AsCab to his right, than it is for Casay Blake who has Peralta to his left.

by hans on May 8, 2008 5:31 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

40 times? I think you’re confusing being quick with being fast. Huge difference. I’ve bored my friends with this many times.

by supermarioelia on May 8, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Nope, I think he’s confusing being rapid with being speedy.

by dgcambridge on May 8, 2008 6:39 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I think he’s confusing being premature with being easily satisfied.

by Jay on May 8, 2008 7:42 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

nah your right. Little sloppy on my part. Go see chuck’s comment or his past comments on this type of thing, he communicates what I want to communicate in an accurate manner.

Communication sloppyiness aside, I stand by my opinion that Garko is likely not as physically capable to cover distance / time as the majority of 1B man.

by hans on May 9, 2008 12:53 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I think it’s tricky to equate range with speed. The guys who understand fielding statistics can speak to this better than I can, but I’m thinking of someone like Jeter, who is a relatively fast runner but isn’t a very rangy shortstop at all (especially to his right, I think). Obviously, being a fast runner doesn’t hurt, but it seems to me that there are so many other things that affect range (you mention several), that it’s hard to say that lack of footspeed is a major limiting factor. Again, that’s just my impression, so if others have data that say otherwise, please weigh in.

by peter m on May 8, 2008 5:37 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

It’s simple: there isn’t any data, cuz no one’s doing the measurements. But you could. Simple see how much ground the fielder has to cover and the amount of time he has from the time the ball leaves the bat until he fields the ball – simple. But, right now no one’s doing that. I’m confident that soon the will, until then the idea of accurate fielding stats is silly.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 8, 2008 6:37 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Even the way you’re describing it is over-simplified, but that doesn’t mean that the data now available is worthless.

by Jay on May 8, 2008 7:44 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I promise never to post such a long comment ever again

First, I appreciate the ribbing but you can’t expect a clevelander to take it lying down.

Second, I do like the answers I am getting, the original post was my observation as well as a genuine question asking how others see it.

Third, I would love to own extra innings but it is not within my current funding. I would like to start a collection for the 119.99 for the yearly subscription to mlbtv on this blogspot but I cant see that going well. I have had the opportunity to watch in full or part between 15 and 20 games this year, including both NYY series, OAK and LAA series, the opening series and a series with KC. As for Underwood, I haven’t been a fan since his 20/20 updates on WKNR 15 years ago, just my opinion.

Fourth, I understand that defensive metrics provide some insight into defensive ability but no metric truly catches a fielders true impact on a game, yet. I dont know of a metric out there that truly captures the raw athleticism and strategies used to make the uncommon play and make it look more common. Those are the things I dont see when I watch or hear when I’m listening. I think the stats are useful but defense is still the most difficult area of the game to objectify. The D has definitely gotten better in the last year and a half but, I still think it’s lacking for a team that is supposed to be a championship contender.

Stats (I could only find current Zone Range and Fielding % numbers, if anyone knows were I can get other metrics I would love the link).
RF-Gutie-ZR mlb position rank #1-.978, 1 E
CF-Grady-ZR#2-.946, 0 E
LF-Delluc-ZR-#12-.848, 0 E
SS-JP-ZR-#23-.798, F%.978 #11
3D-Chin-ZR#21-.723, F%.928 #18
2B-AbaCab-ZR (over 10 games played) #18-.829, F%.991 #11
Carrol-ZR#3-.881, F%.984 #17
1B-Garko-ZR#22-.805, F% .992 #18
C-Vic-CS-.421
KS-CS-1.000
Team-E 17 # 7

Lastly, the most important defensive stat—ERP

by JoeyBelleRedux on May 8, 2008 10:24 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

First, I don’t think anybody expects anybody to take anything laying down. You’re scrapping right back but also reading and thinking and responding, and I don’t anybody here could have a problem with that.

You write: no metric truly catches a fielders true impact on a game

I think you should reserve judgment on that until you have gotten a little more versed in the metrics that are out there. More on that below. But I gotta tell ya, you have to start watching some games, man. Even all the stat-iest stat guys watch a ton of games, and it fuels and informs any exploration of the numbers you do. If you’ve got internet access, you’re halfway there. You don’t want to cough up the $120, you can get MLB.tv for the last for months for $60.

Fielding percentage is simple but is only capturing a small part of the picture, not unlike batting average for hitting.

ZR is not horrible but has been surpassed by more accurate versions of the same idea. Check out RZR and OOZ at this site—and note that you can narrow it down to one or more positions and look at different seasons as well.

You should also take a look at John Dewan’s work, just Google him to get started.

It’s still a wide open field, defensive metrics, with still lots more disagreement as to what it all means than with offensive metrics. But the work that has been done on this in the past 3-5 years basically dwarfs everything done in the previous 100 years, and all people with internet access now have vastly more information about defenders’ quality and impact than we did just three years ago.

by Jay on May 8, 2008 10:47 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

“Gone to souvenir city” is pretty atrocious—smacks of “boom goes the dynamite.” Underwood’s imperfect, for sure, but he does a solid job of calling the action (the occasional missed name aside), and that’s what I ask of my play-by-play guy. As for the banter, well … ... it may not be all Underwood’s fault. Feel free to back me up with a “that’s absolutely right.”

by fleerdon on May 9, 2008 9:46 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I don’t hate Souvenir City. I like horrible, horrible homerun calls. If somebody started using boom goes the dynamite in a sincere tone of voice, in live action, I would be thrilled.

by afh4 on May 9, 2008 10:41 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs