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Game Thirty-Two: Indians 5, Yankees 3

400px-coconut_cream_pie_tiny by Ryan on in Game Recaps

280506110_indians_yankees_69560023_lbig_medium

via www.fangraphs.com

Highest WPA Lowest WPA
David Dellucci .595 Ryan Garko -.163
Jhonny Peralta .317 Kelly Shoppach -.125
Rafael Betancourt .097 Fausto Carmona -.116

I guess it would figure that the Indians come back to win a game after the starter barely got through five innings.

Fausto Carmona's frequent walking spells, which would have sent a pitcher with lesser stuff to the minors by now, shortened his outing tonight. Even though the Yankee lineup tends to chew up starters before their normal finishing point, I don't really think it was their patience that forced Fausto out. It was Fausto's mechanics that acted up; like most of his starts, he'd be in the strike zone for several batters at a time, then his pitches would go off the radar. Carmona has now walked 30 batters in almost 40 innings, an astounding number, especially if you consider how low his ERA remains.

Victor Martinez was a late scratch, making Jhonny Peralta (.216/.276/.392) and Ryan Garko (.242/.361/.354) the #3 and #4 hitters. The scary thing is that those were the proper choices, unless you wanted to move Sizemore down. Ben Francisco was in the lineup, just up from Buffalo, not to mention one of Andy Marte's rare appearances. (Side note: If you throw out Jamey Carroll, every one of those in tonight's lineup either made their major-league debut with the Indians or still had rookie eligibility when they debuted with the Indians. And that includes all the pitchers who made appearances in tonight's game as well.)

But despite another shaky outing from Carmona, despite not doing much against Andy Pettitte, the Indians won the game. The offensive production came on two swings of the bat. The first swing was Jhonny Peralta's home run to right-center in the fourth. The second came in the eighth inning off Joba Chamberlain when pinch-hitter David Dellucci flew out to the short porch in right field. Dellucci's home run came after Ryan Garko seemingly let Joba off the hook by weakly flying out when ahead in the count.

For a game in early May, this win was pretty significant. The Indians haven't been the only team struggling early this season, and even with a below-.500 record, they are now just 1.5 games behind the first-place Twins. For all the trials and tribulations April brought, the Indians don't really need to make up much ground.

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that’s what i’m preaching. i said it the other night: the indians have “achieved” this with nothing from 3B, 2B, RF, DH, relatively little from SS and 1B, unsteady relief (Betancourt, Lewis, Perez), and missing relievers (Julio, Mastny, Breslow).

we will no doubt see improvements from ALL of those positions.

meanwhile, the tigers are 3rd in the AL in runs scored. but their pitching has been bad. and honestly, aside from verlander, there’s NO reason to suggest it’ll improve.

by xrickx on May 7, 2008 12:28 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Love that Joba-sized jump in Win Expectancy.

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on May 7, 2008 12:39 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

couldn’t follow the game (damn time change), but let me say now…

HA HA HA HA HA HA!

by APV on May 7, 2008 1:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Had to follow the game (with interuptions) while at work and no access to LGT. Great to read the game thread knowing what happened and the end result!!!

One day I'll get over to watch the Tribe play

by new zealand tribe fan on May 7, 2008 4:01 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

I guess you could say the Yankees got a Blow Joba last night.

by DixonCayne on May 7, 2008 6:40 AM EDT reply reply   1 recs

A nice win for the Indians. Some good things happened: really strong bullpen work (nice to see Betancourt getting foul balls like last year!!); Peralta had a nice game (I loved that walk late in the game); even Marte was let out of jail (momentarily).

I thought Marte actually did okay - no hits, but he looked patient and seemed to have a clue at the plate - I thought he just missed the 3 – 1 pitch he flied out on in his last AB and it looked to me like he had a real plan in that at bat (working the count, looking for a pitch away on 3-1, etc.)

Francisco didn’t impress me. I didn’t see all his AB’s, but he looked a little anxious at the plate.

Things that worried me: Carmona’s wildness, Hafner still clueless (although he was really on the ball he broke his bat on), Garko’s anxious swing on 2-0 (Dellucci picked him up though!), continued anemic hitting.

I really hope someone (maybe Peralta) can get a streak going; otherwise I’m worried the Indians will slip back into the pattern we’ve been seeing – one or two games where they score runs, then prolonged stretches of nothing. Not to be a dark cloud, but I didn’t see much yesterday (apart from Peralta) that said they’re out of their collective hitting slump.

But, yes, it was a big win.

by peter m on May 7, 2008 9:55 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

He JUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST missed hitting that 3-1 pitch out. Hit it hard, just kind of died around the warning track. it really bounced off his bat, though.

"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"

by Gradysmanldy on May 7, 2008 10:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

The guy has some pop. If he gets on a little hot streak you will start seeing those fly balls turn into doubles and home runs

by Roger Dorn on May 7, 2008 10:24 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Andy Marte is such a good hitter even his 0 for 3 days with 2 cans of corn and a K are impressive.

by oxforddave on May 7, 2008 11:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Ya gotta start somewhere Dave.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 7, 2008 11:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

You mean Marte’s career isn’t over?

by peter m on May 7, 2008 11:25 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I never thought I’d say this, but I think he can turn this thing around if they give him some PT.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 7, 2008 11:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Oh no, Chuck’s drinking the kool aid too!

I have “turned the corner” on Marte too. We have too much invested in this kid not to give him a fair shot. We gave up Coco and (indirectly) Kouzmanoff because of this kid .. why not give him 100 AB’s by the All-Star break?

by Toxicadam on May 7, 2008 11:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I’d like to start with, some … , I don’t know…, hits, maybe?

What gets my goose about Marte is the “backup quarterback” syndrome, i.e. the most popular guy on a football team is the backup QB. A guy who was acquired with promise, looks good/serviceable in preseason, looks good on the sidelines. Somebody you can dream on. Anybody has to be better than the guy they have in there, that bum who keeps throwing picks.

But then they finally play. Spergon Wynn, Luke McCown, etc. They don’t look that bad in their first couple of series. Hey they made that one nice pass down the middle, and did you see him scramble? We can use that kind of play. Of course, the rest of the plays were well below average, but it is something to build on, right? The problem, as we all know, is that is it. They don’t get any better. It is who they are. It is why they are a backup QBs. In a year or two, there is some new great hope. Someone new you can dream on.

For Marte it is actually worse than the backup QB. There is a huge body of work. The translations from AAA to the majors are very accurate, and his last two years of translations are replacement level at best. He has over 1/2 of a year of PAs in the majors and they are utterly pathetic. All that is left is his age (which may be Tejada enhanced), and his 2004-5 seasons. That is a long time ago. Pronk was still a monster only 1 year ago.

I know it is the internet, but this is letsgotribe, and I just expect more analysis/independent thinking in this forum. Less fanboy stuff.

by oxforddave on May 7, 2008 11:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

You are of course ignoring his awesome year at AAA at a younger age and his injuries, but whatever. They don’t rate guys as top prospects based on how they look

by Roger Dorn on May 7, 2008 12:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I know where you are coming from Dave, but Marte is more of a Brady Quinn than a Spurgeon Wynn. He HAS to play because your franchise has made a serious investment in him.

In the same way that a Blake or Trot Nixon gets playing time because of their contracts (despite their struggles), Marte has to be considered the same way. That’s how you have to view Marte in the lineup.

Hypothetical question, but if Kouzmanoff started 3b for the Indians last year .. do you think they would have put up with his sub .210 average for all of April and May?

by Toxicadam on May 7, 2008 12:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

They put up with Barfield. Last year, Marte got caught in an unfortunate situation (unfortunate for him, that is, fortunate for the tribe that Garko started hitting). It is unfortunate again this year. But is 100 PAs going to really tell you something different, and is it worth it to force these 100PAs?

Marte is one injury away from playing full time. Just like Garko last year. But I would have not wanted the tribe to force Garko in the lineup last year, and I don’t think you would have either. Patience.

Personally, I have no faith in Marte, but stranger things have happened than Marte succeeding (e.g. Cliff Lee), and I can still be pleasantly surprised. As always, I’m hopeful for him, but as of now, I’m much more hopeful for others.

by oxforddave on May 7, 2008 12:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

It’s easy to pick out the flops – it really is. But to find the exception, that’s tough. To go along with your back-up QB thing, you know that Frank Ryan usta back up a guy named King Hill at Rice. Given the opportunity he didn’t turn out to bad.

And you’re right, all the signs point to Marte bein’ a bust – but – but – he maybe one of those guys who needs to find his footing at every level. I’m just watching him play. And he may have a fatal flaw – can’t hit the breaking pitch – has a hole the size of Kansas in his swing – I just haven’t seen it. Maybe you have – if so tell me what it is.

And I’ll tell you what – the boy can play some D. He’s without a doubt – and I’ll argue this with you all night and day – the best defensive third baseman on this team. I’m just sayin’ give the kid 15-20 games over the next 30 to see if he can hit. That’s all I’m asking for.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 7, 2008 12:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

All any of us want is to see what he can do

by Roger Dorn on May 7, 2008 12:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Dave, I hope you continue to fight for your position here. There’s obviously a huge wave of Andy Marte support at the moment (myself included), but it’s good having you around to keep us honest.

by APV on May 7, 2008 1:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I appreciate the kind words. I actually hope that Marte plays again tonight. But I totally understand why he may not, and I guess I think it is important to point out that management’s thinking is logical with regard to Marte.

Why do I think it is important? I don’t know. Why am I a fan? Now that is something that is totally illogical.

I guess it is important to me that the team that I follow for illogical reasons, makes logical, intelligent decisions.

by oxforddave on May 7, 2008 4:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Didn’t many people say the exact same things about Phillips and Guthrie?

And what would you lose by switching Blake and Marte? Blake’s only hitting .202 .286 .340 .626 with the 4th worst RZR (Hardball Times) in the ML for 3B.

by ronh on May 7, 2008 1:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

To more completely illustrate this analogy, the starting qb is Charlie Frye, a guy who won’t even be the backup guy on other teams (Blake). The guy waiting in the wings is someone for whom you gave up a legit wide receiver (Crislp) to acquire and who has never gotten 3 starts in a row at qb. You don’t have other qb’s on the roster (no other 3rd basemen in the minors) and the starter you keep trotting out there keeps throwing picks and the team is losing games with this qb to boot. Any head coach that continues to send the starter out will be looking for work shortly.

by elsandito on May 7, 2008 5:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Blake certainly would be a backup for many teams and a starter for some. Although he’s looked in most games this season like he’s done, the odds are that he’s not quite done, and just as he regressed last season from a stellar couple of weeks back down to a mediocre level just above replacement, he likely will regress upwards toward that mediocre level now. Likely, but not definite.

by Jay on May 7, 2008 6:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I’ll concede the point, however, in baseball, one can be considered a backup at third if he can play other positions. In football, a qb cannot also be a backup halfback. I doubt that anyone would carry Blake as a backup third baseman knowing he couldnt contribute at other positions. Fair enough?

by elsandito on May 7, 2008 8:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

OK, my bad, you said he would start for some teams. It’s hard for me to believe any teams can’t come up with a better alternative, but it may be.

by elsandito on May 7, 2008 8:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

He’s notably better than a lot of teams best options. Plus he’s a super utility.

by afh4 on May 8, 2008 8:16 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

All I can say is wow. I don’t do fanatasy league, so I am not aware of many teams’ options, all I do is observe our team and the teams we play against.

by elsandito on May 8, 2008 10:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I thought Marte had some good at bats as well, but that’s pushing it. Off the bat I knew that had no chance. Marte has shown no evidence of being able to hit one out right of center. His power is from the foul pole to to straight-away left, and that’s about it. It’s one of the reasons I don’t have high expectations for him.

There’s no comparison to how balls jump off of his bat and what they do off of Grady’s and Peralta’s bats. None.

That said, I’m glad to see Andy in the starting lineup again tonight. His defense has been good and I’d love to see him get ahold of one and start getting some confidence for himself and giving some confidence to Wedge.

by TribeJay on May 7, 2008 6:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I would like to see us make up those 1.5 games so we can resume our role as the Worst. First Place. Team. Ever.

Carmona’s stat lines have been incredible. Normally, if a guy gives up 6 hits and 5 walks in 5 innings .. you would expect him to give up about 5-6 runs too. 31 walks and yet still a sub 3.00 ERA.

by Toxicadam on May 7, 2008 10:25 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Fear the sinker.

by gte619n on May 7, 2008 10:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

That’s a high standard to shoot for—tough to beat the 2005 Padres (at 82-80). But, I have great faith in these Indians. We can do it!

by peter m on May 7, 2008 10:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

It was a reference to the LGT’s header for the better part of July-August of 07.

by Toxicadam on May 7, 2008 12:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Ah. Well, I guess the Indians failed miserably by actually being good last year! I’m all for a repeat of that (with additional midges and Andy Marte running through Skinner’s stop sign at third to score the go-ahead run against the Sox). Deal?

by peter m on May 7, 2008 1:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

This roughly refers to August 4-21.

July 23—we’ve been playing .500 ball for six weeks and are two games behind Detroit.

August 1 – we lose seven out of the next nine, yet we’re now just one game behind. Somehow Detroit has been even worse.

August 3 – we win two in a row, which is all it takes to move into first place.

August 4-21 – We lose nine of the next 15 games, yet somehow spend all but two days in first place.

So we were deeply disatisfied with the state of the team, which while technically a first-place team had just finished a run of 17-24.

by Jay on May 7, 2008 3:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

God bless the Tigers

by Toxicadam on May 7, 2008 3:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

But not too much.

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on May 7, 2008 4:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Righteous.

by dgcambridge on May 7, 2008 11:52 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Yes, I’m going to start a Kinston game thread right now for their crazy early game today. Yes, I’ll make it a fan shot, even though those get 1/4 the traffic of the fanposts. Anyone?

by dgcambridge on May 7, 2008 11:57 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Were the midges invisible? I thought that was the only way anybody ever hit Joba.

LeCavs!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.

by Matt in LA on May 7, 2008 12:18 PM EDT reply reply   1 recs

You forgot to mention sweaty, muscular-necked Joba.

by fleerdon on May 7, 2008 3:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

teehee,

My friend was yelling the same thing at the game. “You don’t look so great without the bugs, Joba!”

"Mixed emotions. Rather see him hit PEDroia [with that pitch]. I don’t care if he is in the dugout"

by Gradysmanldy on May 7, 2008 4:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I loved the sidenote; really gives me the warm fuzzies.

Side note: If you throw out Jamey Carroll, every one of those in tonight’s lineup either made their major-league debut with the Indians or still had rookie eligibility when they debuted with the Indians. And that includes all the pitchers who made appearances in tonight’s game as well.

Wow. That line-up, with AbaCab instead of Baboo, really speaks well to minor league development and player identification.

by macasson on May 7, 2008 12:33 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Last season began with a huge hit from David Dellucci. So does this one.

by afh4 on May 7, 2008 12:41 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

i presume he means the tigers game winner when we scored like 19 runs off of jones. i can’t remeber if that was a start of a run or not…

by Brick. on May 7, 2008 1:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Was the start of a pretty prosperous June, but more importantly a indicator that we were for real.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on May 7, 2008 1:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

it was june 1st

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on May 7, 2008 2:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

i thought we sucked in june and july?

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on May 7, 2008 2:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

15-13 june, 12-14 july.

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on May 7, 2008 2:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Whoops. For some reason I always remembered the suck last year being in July and early August. Didn’t realize it really started in June.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on May 7, 2008 5:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yeah, that was a great irony of last season. That big moment, which seemed like a big harbinger, was followed by the worst chunk of our season—we went 31-35 from that game until AbaCab’s callup on August 15.

Meanwhile, the infamous Joe-Blowup in New York on April 19, which was supposed to be a harbinger of doom, instead led to one of our best runs, 28-13 from that night until the big Dellucci game.

by Jay on May 7, 2008 2:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

so, then betancourt’s rough outings are the beginning of this season?

by Brick. on May 7, 2008 2:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Your guess is as good as mine.

by Jay on May 7, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

You know, Jay, some things are symbolic. You wouldn’t know that with your obsession with things like records and glasses and pocketknives.

by afh4 on May 7, 2008 3:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I recommend watching the video of Dellucci’s shot up on indians.com courtesy of the Yes Network. Listen to how Michael Kay says Dellucci’s name. Then listen to the awkward rambling which ensues following the awkward silence. At one point, one of the commentators essentially says, “yeah…that ball was hit high enough and deep enough to go over the wall”. Thanks for that insightful analysis buddy…

by APV on May 7, 2008 4:47 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

The 3 stooges got away with one last night, how much more rope does shelton get for cryin out loud

by mtbruer on May 7, 2008 4:55 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

An appropriate place for a WTF?!? if there ever was one.

by NickFantana on May 7, 2008 5:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

FYI, he considers Carl Willis to be one of the three stooges.

by Jay on May 7, 2008 5:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

The only thing I can think to do to react more adequately to this info is to write WTF bigger and maybe in a Gothic font.

by NickFantana on May 8, 2008 9:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Are you sure he means Willis? I can’t imagine anything Willis could be faulted for? The pitching is the only thing keeping this team from the cellar. Maybe the 3 stooges are Shapiro, Wedge and Dolan?

by elsandito on May 8, 2008 9:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I thought the umpiring was good last night. And, there were four of them (Shemp + Curly?)

by peter m on May 8, 2008 10:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I don’t know. A related question would be, how much more rope do you get?

We all vent here, but this is not the place for people who ONLY vent. That place would be, every other Indians forum.

by Jay on May 7, 2008 5:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

If Shelton is one of the 3 stooges, then are we giving the other 2 stooges more rope than Shelton? The same amount?

I think we should just give the stooges a set amount of rope and make them split it up themselves. I’m tired of rationing out rope for every individual stooge.

by afh4 on May 7, 2008 6:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

MARTE IS STARTING AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!1111

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on May 7, 2008 6:18 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

All hitter go through slumps, it’s a fact. But when an entire team is slumping for an extended period where else can you look except to coaching? If I am wrong please tell me, I really hope that I am because our front office sure doesn’t seem willing to hold the coaches to account. Oh and I’m done “venting”, everything is wonderful our coaches are the best, really.

by mtbruer on May 7, 2008 7:11 PM EDT reply reply