Let's Go Tribe!: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:





A Hafner-Free Zone?

It's obvious that everyone here is pretty frustrated with Travis Hafner's struggles.  But, I think I'm hearing at least two different views of the situation.  Some people think he's crucial to the team and that it's essential that they get him back to hitting well or the team won't be able to contend.  It sounds to me as if others feel he's "done" (Mo Vaughn done) and that the team needs to and can move on.

I have trouble accepting this last conclusion -- can the Indians succeed if Hafner does not start to hit at least reasonably well?  We've talked a lot about whether Hafner can come back.  But, what happens if he doesn't?  What do people think that means for the Indians season?

0 recs | Comment 132 comments | Add your comment

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

Display:

They survived last season with a less-than-Pronk display from Hafner. Of course, that was still orders of magnitude above his current level of performance, but I think they’ll be OK if some other people come around & pick up the slack a bit (that means YOU, Garko).

Despite all of my best intentions, I have not, in fact, grown up to be a debaser.

by zempf on May 8, 2008 11:59 AM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Pronk out of the lineup again today. As is Vic. Poop. Can we get a game thread goin?

by supermarioelia on May 8, 2008 12:04 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Has Jhonny hit clean up before? I can’t recall.

by peter m on May 8, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

this is the first time in his career that Jhonny is in the 4th spot

by palcal on May 8, 2008 1:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Hafner’s struggles would be a big story and a big problem independent of anything else, but he becomes the whipping boy when everyone else is falling on their face.

Hafner OPS: -.194
Gutierrez OPS: -.150
Blake OPS: -.149
Garko OPS: -.134
Victor OPS: -.116
Peralta OPS: -.055
Sizemore OPS: -.033

Wow. So yeah, Hafner is a major problem, but any reasonable offensive performance would have the Indians in first place—probably by several games.

Assuming there is some kind of correction coming - and christ how can there not be - we have the potential to post a solid, winning record and make the playoffs. But Hafner is supposed to be the offensive monster, and without a return to even last year’s form, it will no doubt be difficult. He gets the ink because he was the best hitter in the game two years ago and he makes the most dough. He deserves to be under the microscope.

by tabler84 on May 8, 2008 12:55 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Let’s look at this from another angle:
1.We need to win whether or not Hafner is in the lineup.
B..Hafner is not responsible for other hitters sucking.
3.You could lay all that extra cash we are paying Haf at the plate at each at bat and it wouldn’t improve his performance.
D.No matter what Haf did in 2006 or any other year, it won’t help us this year.
5.This team IS capable of going all the way without Haf, if this pitching continues and other regulars stop sucking at the plate.

by elsandito on May 8, 2008 3:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Here, sing along.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 8, 2008 3:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Don’t know if you’re actually saying that Hafner dogged after getting paid, but I certainly don’t believe that.

by tabler84 on May 8, 2008 3:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Nope I’m sayin’ that rich or poor he’s still tryin’ his best. You know, the money didn’t change him, but Time knocked him out.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 8, 2008 4:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Ahh. A sad possibility. But no giving up from me.

by tabler84 on May 8, 2008 4:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

While I agree Hafner is not the only one struggling, I fear that the rest of the guys “could” be struggling because of Hafner. They know he is struggling, so they are trying just a bit harder to compensate for his bat. Hafner may not be causing the power outage by himself, but he is indirectly doing it.

by talonk on May 9, 2008 10:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Hafner will be sitting more often until he shows more signs of coming out of his funk in the chances that he does get. The Indians are going to Cincy next week. It’s hard to see how he plays there.

by palcal on May 8, 2008 1:16 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

he plays because he pinch hits for Marte, duh.

by still ill on May 8, 2008 2:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

From the headline of this post, I thought you were going to waxing rhapsodic about first base.

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on May 8, 2008 3:56 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

....going to be waxing…

dang fingers get ahead of my brain

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on May 8, 2008 3:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

No. As someone pointed, Garko is channelling Hafner at the moment.

by peter m on May 8, 2008 3:58 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

It’s contagious. Should be pointed OUT.

by peter m on May 8, 2008 3:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I just don’t buy this “The Indians can’t win without Hafner” argument. The Indians can clearly win with a so-so DH; they did it last year. It’s a radically different team than the one Hafner was signed to help; obviously, he could make this team truly dominant at his 2006 levels but that’s wishful thinking. This team can win without 2006 Hafner; they’re built on pitching and bullpen.

The more pertinent point seems to be that 2008 Hafner hurts the Indians. A lot. With no real signs of hope.

There is now at least one player available who could match Hafner’s production from last year if he’s healthy. He’s not palatable but he lagged Travis by 2 rc/g last year. Frank Thomas was better than Hafner last year as well.

Either sign Bonds or start rotating Shoppach, Garko, and Vic. I realize there’s a lot of black holes in this lineup and some point to Hafner as a scapegoat of sorts but we’re not that dimwitted. Hafner’s the only one that has been terrible for not only this season but the last one as well.

I don’t know what the solution is with him but I don’t harbor any hope that he’s going to just wake up one day and be better; I do harbor that exact hope with Garko, Peralta, Blake, and to a lesser extent Franklin. They look like guys in slumps. Hafner looks like a football player trying to hit a baseball.

He needs to be working this problem out somewhere besides our lineup; we’re trying to win baseball games here.

Could he get through waivers? I think yes.

by afh4 on May 8, 2008 6:15 PM EDT reply reply   0 recs

Either waivers or a fake injury trip to the DL, there’s still enough time we could send him out, rehab him, and if he’s back great, if not it’s trading time, looking for a replacement. One thing I forget a lot is that this is a somewhat significant window with Sabathia being in his walk year. We likely won’t be as good next year.

by NickFantana on May 8, 2008 6:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I mean, shit, look what some AAA did for Cliff! Maybe Travis comes back and posts a 2500 OPS.

by gte619n on May 8, 2008 7:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

It is getting to the point where you’d almost think he’d agree to it, but while I’ve seen it talked about on a few occasions - the Yankees with both Giambi and Pavano come to mind - I don’t think I’ve ever seen a veteran on a multiyear deal agree to this. We definitely need his permission, and also needs to clear waivers since he’s out of options.

by Jay on May 8, 2008 7:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Right now Jordan Brown or Weglaz could put up the same stats as Hafner at 1/50th the cost, but that’s not the point. I believe that Hafner is fixable, but not if Wedge keeps rolling him out there like he has. One more time: It’s not a mechanical problem – it’s a confidence issue. Hell Hafner probably hit .240/.260/.300 in the Fall Instructional League now. I’d DL him for a coupla months and then send him off to rehab – blame it on a recurrence of his wrist injury. Then I’d sign Barry Bonds – that’s right I said it – if he’d go for DHing in the AL. If not I’d rotate the DH duties among Vic, Garko and Peralta – cuz that’s all we’ve got right now.

Hafner’s salvageable, but not if they keep the pressure on him. Right now he’s wilting like an orchid in the desert just trying too damn hard.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 7:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

So, we agree? Yes?

by afh4 on May 9, 2008 9:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

On this, yes. On the player celebration showing up other players – definitely not.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 9:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

DL Hafner and sign Bonds! I love it!

by NickFantana on May 9, 2008 9:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Chuck,

So LeBron is the villain of all villains, worthy of nothing, but Bonds is welcome on your team.

Huh.

by tabler84 on May 9, 2008 12:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

You just don’t understand Barry.

by Jay on May 9, 2008 12:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I deleted my original response since it linked LeBron with Kobe, but the inflamatory nature was such that even I censored it.

But put it this way: if I could cheer for Albert Belle than surely I could cheer for Barry. After all Albert wasn’t a Yankee fan.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 1:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

how do you know he isn’t a Yankee fan? Just cause he’s from the south doesn’t mean he didn’t root for the Yankees as kid. You have no way of knowing.

Persoanlly, I think Joey would sell his allegiance to the highest bidder, which probably would be the Yankees.

by talonk on May 9, 2008 1:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Well for one thing he never wore a Yankee’s hat, or a Piston’s jersey or a Steelers jacket to a goddamn play-off game and then told me to “deal with it”. That’s how I know.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 1:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

how do you know he isn’t a Yankee fan?

Belle was an ass, not a douchebag. Therefore, he wasn’t a yankee fan.

by Brick. on May 9, 2008 1:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Really? trying to run over kids with a car isn’t douche-like? hmmmmm

by talonk on May 9, 2008 1:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Trust me, if Joey really wanta hurt that kid he wouldda got hurt.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Sorry, I athough Belle was an a** AND a douche, but I still cheered for him. Kind of like Le ….. ahhh never mind

by talonk on May 9, 2008 1:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

i don’t think you understand the essence of douche.

roger clemens = douche
ryan leaf = ass
dustin pedroia = douche
barry bonds = ass
curt schilling = 1/2 ass 1/2 douche

by Brick. on May 9, 2008 1:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   1 recs

I think you have your math wrong – despite the seeming contradiction and impossibility, Schilling is actually 1 ass + 1/2 a douche.

by steincat on May 9, 2008 1:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

ding ding ding

we have the correct answer!

by macasson on May 9, 2008 2:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

roger clemens = tremendous douche

by afh4 on May 9, 2008 2:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Well I gotta stand up for my boy – no he’s not. And he’s not, to me in person anyway, the guy you read about in the papers. He’s just not.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 2:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Your boy? Wha?

by NickFantana on May 9, 2008 2:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

You’re missing out on one of the all time threads. The original “is Roger Clemens a douche” thread.

by afh4 on May 9, 2008 2:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Nothing happened. He and Roger just watched a movie together and drifted off to sleep. It was sweet.

by dgcambridge on May 9, 2008 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I think we CAN win without Hafner because of the pitching.
But the offense without Pronk (and with this “Hafner” guy in there instead) is going to cost this teams enough wins to make it interesting down the stretch in the Central, whereas an offense WITH Pronk has already taken the division and run with it at this point.

by The DiaTriber on May 9, 2008 9:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Yeah but to me this is about as relevant as saying “We would be way, way better if Albert Belle was healthy. And was playing with the Indians. After getting in a time machine.”

I mean, yeah. Obviously we’d be better with a player who hits 19 grand slams a year. But is there any reason to even discuss that?

Sorry if that comes off as aggressive but this whole issue makes my nerves raw. Hafner is the first truly devastating player collapse I’ve had to live through as a fan. It’s extremely hard for me to reconcile what’s happened here.

by afh4 on May 9, 2008 9:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Fair enough, as I probably simplified it a little too much. Pujols would look nice, too.

I don’t think it comes off as aggressive, just typical of the frustration that we’re all feeling.
When Hafner inked his extension, I think most of us saw the anchor for our lineup for the foreseeable future based on what he accomplished in 2005 and 2006, which were truly remarkable seasons.

Unfortunately, the devastating player collapse that you speak of is just having a trickle-down effect as the lineup is constructed to almost rely on the production from Sizemore, Vic, and Hafner (in particular). With Hafner out of the mix as a viable bat, it just puts undue pressure on the rest of the lineup, which I’m not sure it’s truly able to absorb.

by The DiaTriber on May 9, 2008 9:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I, on the other hand, saw an anchor to our salary structure and an impetiment in signing some of our other younger players. Shapiro should be able to compensate, but he made his job just a little bit harder by signing Hafner to such a large contract.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 9:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I knew you would catch this, Chuck.
I had written “all of us” and changed it to “most of us” in deference to your foresight on this.

by The DiaTriber on May 9, 2008 10:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Chuck wears a T-shirt to work every day that says, I NEVER LIKED THE HAFNER CONTRACT.

He owns 20 of them.

by Jay on May 9, 2008 1:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I rotate ‘em with my “I TOLD YOU THAT CLIFF WAS GONNA COME BACK ” T-shirts.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 1:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Tell me you wore at least one of them for the trip to the Bronx.

by The DiaTriber on May 9, 2008 1:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

So which of our young players haven’t we been able to sign?

by Voltaire on May 9, 2008 12:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

None yet, but Hafner’s contract is gonna make it just that much tougher in the future.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 1:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Not true.

by Jay on May 9, 2008 1:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Exactly. It’s a sunk cost at this point, and with all of the friendly deals we’ve already signed, it won’t hinder us from signing Francisco, Mills, Weglarz, etc as they prove to be tthe next valuable cogs.

by talonk on May 9, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Well you boyz have half the equation right. Yep, it’s a sunk cost, never to be recovered. But we also have a fixed budget and money spent on Hafner is money that’s unavailable for other expenses – like signing players.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 1:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I’ll let Jay refute this in more detail. But there really aren’t any other young players that will need signing in the next few years. You think signing AsCab to a Jhonny type deal would be prevented by the Hafner $$? That’s ludicrous.

by talonk on May 9, 2008 1:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I guess if you limit it to our young players you’re right – only I wasn’t limiting it to our guys. They’ll be dozens of FAs we’ll wanna sign in the coming years that we’ll be unable to sign because of the money being eaten up by Hafner’s contract – dozens.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 1:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

ok, nice to change gears in your own statements chuck ;)

{from upthread}
you: impediment to signing younger players.
Voltaire: which young players
you: none yet …etc

Now you are talking free agents, which is a total change in the discourse.

Just how many “young” free agents do you think we’d be pursuing anyways?

As for free agents in general, which ones are you honestly thinking we’d go after. Shapiro has never pursued top guys, he’s more interested in the fringe/reclamation/platoon guys (Byrd, Millwood, Dellucci). There is no way Hafner’s contract prevents us from going after that type of player.

Now if we were trying to sign 3-5 of those guys, then yes, Hafner’s contract could limit us, but I don’t think you’ll see Shapiro pursuing oodles of those guys.

by talonk on May 9, 2008 1:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Show me where I limited it to “younger players” – this new medicaiton I’m on is messing with my memory.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 2:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

I, on the other hand, saw an anchor to our salary structure and an impetiment in signing some of our other younger players. Shapiro should be able to compensate, but he made his job just a little bit harder by signing Hafner to such a large contract.

The 6:47 post above

by talonk on May 9, 2008 2:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Ya got me – it’s the Levitor.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on May 9, 2008 2:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

There will not be dozens of free agents that this team wants to sign in the coming years and will be unable to do so because of Hafner’s $$$ for three reasons:

1) Shapiro shops at the bargain basement of free agency. Look at the free agents he’s signed lately – Byrd, Dellucci, Kobayashi – all bargains.

2) This team prefers to build from within and will not be looking to fill any major holes with a free agent.

3) Most of the core players are already locked up with longterm contracts through most of Hafner’s contract anyway, so there won’t be major holes to fill unless current Indians fail dramatically or have career-ending injuries.

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on May 9, 2008 1:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Okay.

We will never prioritize anything over locking up our best young players. Not ever. Those deals are ultimately cost-saving anyway.

Hafner’s essentially money comes out of our “veteran budget,” free agents and guys extended beyond their initial free agency, which is about half the payroll but only covers a handful of players.

Iin 2008: Sabathia (10), Westbrook (11), Byrd (8), Dellucci (3.75), Michaels (2), Kobayashi (3.25), Borowski (4)—total of $42 million.

In 2009: Westbrook (11), Kobayashi (3.25), Dellucci (4), Hafner (11.5)—total of $29.75 million.

In 2010: Westbrook (11), Hafner (11.5)—total of $22.5 million.

In 2011: Hafner (13), Sizemore (7.5)—total of $20.5 million.

In 2012: Hafner (13)—total of $13 million.

There is basically a hierarchy of investment quality:

1. Pre-arbitration guys - any team can afford these.
2. Lockups - guys under multi-year deals, signed prior to arbitration and covering those seasons. Much better value than anything else.
3. Arbitration cases - they make more than lockups, but minimized risk on a one-year deal.
4. Hometown extensions - leveraging high-quality relationships with players who like playing for Cleveland, resulting in contracts that are favorable in terms of risk and/or cost, e.g., Sabathia, Westbrook and Hafner’s current deals.
5. Low-end free agents - minimized cost and risk, some upside.
6. High-end free agents - high risk, but far better ROI at the top of the scale than in the middle.
7. All other free agents—usually a bad value except in a special situation, team affinity or market under-values the player.

Now, 6 and 7 are so bad, we will hardly ever see them. We dabble in 5 to fill holes or add depth, lots of bullpen signings recently. But essentially, 5-6-7 are so hard to do effectively, that we look to do 4 whenever we can, or else risk not having any effective way to spend our budget at all.

I’m not saying the Indians separate things out in quite this way, but as most of our young players have now reached arbitration years (4-6) while we still have several who are younger than that (1-3), the Indians’ model will tend to keep the rest of the payroll stable. Under that assumption, and the assuming that this “veteran” part of the budget (4-7) will rise to about $60 million in 2012, the Hafner contract, while cumbersome, doesn’t kill us.

That is, (a) it only takes up 25% of that part of our budget, (b) it won’t touch the other half of our budget, which is fairly stable, and© the Indians will still have incentive to do #4 deals, which are generally more productive than 5-6-7. Therefore, spending will be affected most in the free agent signings, which are by far the least productive part of our roster, dollars-per-marginal-win.

It sucks, but we can handle it. I don’t know how many #4 deals we’ll really be wanting to do in those latter years, anyway. The main candidates will be Victor, Jhonny, Lee and Betancourt, and given the volatility of those players and those positions, we’ll be lucky if we really want to pay to keep more than one or two of those guys.

by Jay on May 9, 2008 1:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   1 recs

See I could never be this eloquent … sigh

by talonk on May 9, 2008 2:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs

Agreed on pretty much all. But there is another point.

Locking up Lee? Isn’t remarkable what a month of dominance will do. Many here were bemoaning the Lee contract last year, and how it hurts the flexibility. What a joke that is now.

The same thing is in play with Pronk. He is having a horrible year so far. But that is not necessarily it. Lee was just as bad last year. Pronk can easily get it back together, and his deal will look good. JD Drew looked cooked, and now he is back. Giambi looked ridiculously cooked, and then started hitting HRs in 05 like nobody’s business.

by oxforddave on May 9, 2008 2:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply   0 recs