Should LGT have a Wiki?
I've been noticing, as new people come to the site -- and as old people come back from long absences -- there's a bit of animosity held toward the regulars here at LGT for being "elitist." Which, uh, we certainly can be. As with any group of friends -- or at least, people who interact on a semi-regular basis -- we've developed a tendency toward inside jokes and running gags, and we've also reached a certain point where we tire of certain arguments.
None of this is at all problematic, but it does make the learning curve fairly steep for new or long-absent members, and it can create a bit of an echo-chamber effect if we keep chasing out those who are newcomers who may not get that we just really don't need to talk about Brandon Phillips again, or who just doesn't understand why we need to HIRE MARIO'S SON.
Some of you may or may not know that I am an occasional commenter over at Red Reporter -- and you can just shush, Chuck -- and one thing that made my decision to begin commenting over there a lot easier is that they have a Wiki, which explains some of their inside jokes, what the history of some of their posters is (their E5s, if you will), and why they just really don't feel like beating the dead horse of whether or not Adam Dunn is actually good at baseball again.
Now, I understand taking a cue from our friends down south might not, necessarily, be all that appealing, but is it something anyone here might be willing to help me work on? I know there are a number of free Wiki-hosting & generating sites that we could use for this purpose, and having Wiki entries with former arguments pre-referenced might save everyone a lot of time. On the other hand, it does feel slightly self-aggrandizing. Your thoughts?
(And okay, most of the new people who can't backread aren't going to read the Wiki either, but sometimes you just need your memory jogged about where "demolish the bathroom" came from.)
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As a relative newbie, I award you a steaming bowl of Skyline Chili, 5-ways, for your good idea. At the very least, a place where people could go to refresh their memories about ongoing BASEBALL-RELATED discussions would be a good thing (i.e., Hafner sucks/no he doesn’t, Marte sucks/no he doesn’t, Wedge sucks/no he doesn’t, and other classic debates to which we’re not adding much at this point).
by peter m on Jun 16, 2008 3:45 PM EDT 0 recs
We’re all in agreement that Wedge sucks. No need to slash that one.
by gte619n on
Jun 16, 2008 4:12 PM EDT
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Wedge certainly does not suck. Those who say that are just looking to play the blame game.
by gahnki on
Jun 16, 2008 5:03 PM EDT
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I am not saying he is the best manager ever. It’s just that the team didn’t get off to a terrible start because of him.
by gahnki on
Jun 16, 2008 5:25 PM EDT
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I think the hazing process is a healthy part of all communities. It weeds out the thinned-skinned.
by Toxicadam on Jun 16, 2008 3:53 PM EDT 0 recs
i’m not sure having the information available means there won’t be rookie hazing. It’ll just be, you know, less Baseball Player In a Hooters Waitress Costume and more a Baseball Player in a Pikachu Costume kinda hazing.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on
Jun 16, 2008 4:30 PM EDT
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Occasionally someone will pop up and starting saying stuff like this. The fact is, we’ve been growing steadily as a community since the end of 2005. This kind of criticism might start to seem apt if we ever actually plateau in terms of readership and participation, but we’ve had several orders-of-magnitude jumps in traffic with no end in sight. Them’s the facts — maybe the community is functioning pretty well as-is, whether that goes against your theories or not.
by Jay on
Jun 17, 2008 4:26 PM EDT
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The comment that I replied to said that they think hazing is part of having a healthy community. I replied and said that it doesn’t seem like a good idea to me if you want to keep expanding the community.
No offense, but it seems to me that having a hazing policy is a bad idea. Not that LGT has one, not that you guys aren’t expanding, etc.
by Cols714 on
Jun 17, 2008 6:49 PM EDT
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Very confusing. Of course, there’s no policy, although it would be fun to write one.
I don’t run this site, but it seems from the outside that the goal is to have enough people to have thoughtful, fun, and thorough discussions. I think there’s enough here for that, but it also seems like more people join all the time, which is great.
It just seems like quality is prized over quantity, while still being open, and I think it’s fantastic.
by dgcambridge on
Jun 17, 2008 7:39 PM EDT
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Thank you Dave. It’s nice to know that some people think it’s fantastic, and that some people even know that they think it, and that some will even admit to it.
by Jay on
Jun 18, 2008 12:58 AM EDT
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I would be willing to bet that the E5 page would be the funniest site on the internet.
by gte619n on Jun 16, 2008 4:13 PM EDT 0 recs
I’m not even sure, like, where to begin. (And Bannedini was a little before my time and I don’t recall GTF especially clearly.)
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on
Jun 16, 2008 4:27 PM EDT
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Brandini, I believe, was his monikor. And he couldn’t hold a candle to the original LGT troll: Tribe Inne.
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.
by jdudas on
Jun 16, 2008 7:27 PM EDT
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Bannedini is a pun. i thought you writer folk picked up on that kind of corny thing.
by Brick. on
Jun 16, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
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Tribe Inne and E5 were actually the same dude. Just FYI for the Wiki page.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on
Jun 16, 2008 9:33 PM EDT
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I remember Tribe Inne…no idea they were one and the same though…
http://www.on-the-bench.blogspot.com - an irreverant take on EPL football (that's soccer!)
by Luis (Tribe Fan in London) on
Jun 17, 2008 3:38 AM EDT
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that’s news to me too: just goes to show that you can never hold a good troll down.
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.
by jdudas on
Jun 17, 2008 8:46 AM EDT
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Tribe In NE (New England). I might’ve made the connection sooner, if I had been aware of the moniker Tribe Inne.
Also!
I don’t know how many inside jokes are out there and which need explaining. The exclamation, “Also!” probably deserves the treatment.
by jhon on
Jun 17, 2008 7:01 PM EDT
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nice!
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.
by jdudas on
Jun 16, 2008 7:28 PM EDT
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Sounds like a good idea to me. And I’d be willing to help out, if I could. I’ve got plenty of spare time now.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 16, 2008 4:55 PM EDT 0 recs
There is already an LGT Wiki in the works — actually, more like an Indians wiki that has room for LGT-specific stuff. I’m not terribly interested in the inside-jokes FAQ myself — surest way to kill a joke is to start explaining it — but if other people really want to write pages like that, I imagine we wouldn’t stop them. It also strikes me that having an explain-all-our-jokes FAQ actually creates more of an impression of self-importance, not less. I love the whole gang, here, but I prefer to keep the focus on the Indians.
I am especially not interested in anything that lavishes attention on those whose main reason for making people miserable was to get more attention. Talk about self-defeating. I understand that they come up in a humorous context now and again, but most of the regulars know that they’re really not worth talking about — and trust me, if you’d had to deal with the psychotic private e-mails, you wouldn’t find this subject the least bit funny, and you’d never, ever bring it up.
by Jay on Jun 16, 2008 4:56 PM EDT 0 recs
I think, upon further consideration, outside of “this is what has gotten people banned in the past, don’t do it” you’re right on the banned user entries being out of line. (Especially since they wouldn’t really have the room to defend themselves, and I think it opens the door up for attacking others currently on the site through a wiki type thing.
As far as explaining inside jokes, some of them are essentially self-explanatory or funny in context, but I don’t think posting, for example, the initial context of “Brodzoski (The Close)” on a wiki would necessarily kill the joke either.
In any case, I posted this question because I knew some people would fall on the anti- (or, at least not-especially-pro-) side, and I definitely wanted to know the arguments against it.
I didn’t know about the currently in the works Wiki, though. Will there be an announcement when it goes live?
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on
Jun 16, 2008 5:25 PM EDT
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No. It will be invite-only. And gahnki’s not getting one.
by Jay on
Jun 16, 2008 5:44 PM EDT
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gahnki … you kind of ripped into me … and then kind of took it back … which is so unfair, because it denies me the fun of ripping back into you in kind. I even had it all written up — and it was a doozy, it was gonna hurt. But, since you already basically called a truce, it wouldn’t have been cool, so I just deleted all of it.
The general message I’d like you and everyone else to take is that, this may look easy, but that doesn’t mean it is. Ryan and I put up with a lot of BS that you guys never see, or some of it gets seen briefly by a few people, but we see all of it, and then there’s the behind-the-scenes stuff. We have some very specific ideas about how to run the place — to keep it pumping with the kind of Tribe talk we think is cool, to keep it a site that’s palatable for the dozens of great people who are capable of making it that kind of place. And we’re pretty committed to that and even disciplined about it.
But anyway, there is a lot of BS, sometimes very aggravating and totally pointless, and once in a while, maybe try to keep that in mind, so that when we say, “Maybe not this,” you know, maybe give us the benefit of the doubt that there’s actually a good reason. If that’s okay with you. I’m always open and receptive to private feedback over e-mail, and Ryan is, too. If you feel strongly about something or are concerned, take it there.
by Jay on
Jun 16, 2008 7:16 PM EDT
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This better be in the book…along with the psychotic emails. I’m getting pretty giddy for the book’s release…any chance we can add it as a sort of supplemental handout with Byrd’s book? This way at least a few people will buy the poor guy’s work.
by supermarioelia on
Jun 16, 2008 11:11 PM EDT
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They’re much easier to remember fondly now that they’re not here. In fact, I’d wager we’re actually remembering funny responses to them – “Last word.” – more than we are remembering their actual comments.
UnfrozenCaveman, anyone? Yeah, me neither.
by fleerdon on
Jun 16, 2008 9:53 PM EDT
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BOOM.
I’m glad somebody remembers that. I think it’s the funniest thing I’ve ever done in my life.
by afh4 on
Jun 18, 2008 1:07 PM EDT
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To go off of what Angie is saying, Lookout Landing has a pretty good Wiki, and an entire page devoted to inside jokes, albeit ones that have run their course.
But I differ to Jayan on this one.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jun 16, 2008 8:14 PM EDT 0 recs
And by differ, I of course mean defer.
We should have a “Grammar, Sticklers for” page.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jun 16, 2008 8:15 PM EDT
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No
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on Jun 16, 2008 9:41 PM EDT 0 recs
How about something that covers the lesser infractions, the things that are not covered by the ground rules? For instance, not using the subject line, and the hackneyed arguments over Wedge, Marte, Sizemore down in the order, and other completely done topics. I don’t mind getting ripped. I’m pretty self-depricating and love a good laugh at my own expense. However, I’m not a big fan of generally rude behavior. You can call it hazing, but frankly it is just impolite. Why does the inherant anonymity of blogging give beer muscles to the anti-social act? It’s a game. It happens to be the greatest game in my view. Enjoy and include.
proverbial "moron in a hurry"
by 94neverout on Jun 16, 2008 10:10 PM EDT 1 recs
You know, I know we don’t use the subject line, but is there a reason we don’t outside of that it’s kinda superfluous?
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on
Jun 17, 2008 8:43 AM EDT
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I think once you’re used to reading without, it’s incredibly obnoxious to use. Try to read a thread at SSS and see what you think.
Il faut d'abord durer.
by CU Adam on
Jun 17, 2008 8:55 AM EDT
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It’s certainly a hard habit to break once I start doing it: I know that much. (I do post at some other SBN blogs that use the subject line and it takes a bit to get used to, but just as much to get used to not using it when I come back here.)
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on
Jun 17, 2008 9:01 AM EDT
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There’s a blog called Small Sample Size?!
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on
Jun 18, 2008 2:56 AM EDT
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Okay, it’s a bit odd, yet logical.
On the old platform, we never used the subject line — sort of. The software copied the subject line from the subject of the Story/Diary/Fanpost, or from the Subject of the replied-to Comment. So we all got used to reading that way, skipping over the subjects.
On other SBN sites, for some reason, the subject never copied, and yet it was required to have one. So people would start typing the message in the subject and then continue it in the body. This was (and is) an awkward, disjointed and awful way to read — and to write. The vast majority of these comments don’t really require a subject any more than a text message on your phone, or in an IM session.
So when we got to the new platform — which has a subject line, doesn’t copy it, but also doesn’t require it — I felt (and enough others agreed I guess) that we should continue the tradition of basically not using it, because it makes for a much less choppy, disjointed writing, in addition to making the page much easier on the eyes. And it really hasn’t been much effort to convince people to go along with it. I think it’s fairly self-evident that this way is just better.
I have lobbied the SBN folks (though not all that hard) to eliminate the Subject line entirely, or at least eliminate it for reply-to comments. I think they are hesitant to do this because of probably a million comments that already have them, but you can keep displaying them without entering new ones. Basically, these forums are more like chat sessions, they are not like e-mails or office memos, and the interface should reflect that, as all good interfaces reflect the essential nature of the activity they present and enable.
by Jay on
Jun 17, 2008 10:48 AM EDT
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Well put. I knew it came from habits formed on the old SBN sites, but I didn’t know the initial reasoning why we didn’t have to use subject lines but the other places did. Thanks.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on
Jun 17, 2008 10:52 AM EDT
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That would just be another place for you to mis-type words….
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on
Jun 17, 2008 11:44 AM EDT
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I like the response you got in LL on your Bavasi post:
Subject lines >:(by Last Fan Of Jose Lopez on Jun 17, 2008 1:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jun 17, 2008 12:35 PM EDT
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Oh, and after my first post I would agree that one should read for several weeks before posting. Include that rule if so inclined.
proverbial "moron in a hurry"
by 94neverout on Jun 16, 2008 10:13 PM EDT 0 recs
To be honest, I don’t really see the use of an official wiki, since this is first and foremost a baseball blog – once it becomes about personalities and the like, the baseball tends to take a back seat. And I’d really not like to revisit those, uh, characters who are no longer with us, for reasons that I hope everyone understands.
But I do think that a short community introduction would be very helpful to those new to the community and to let our various dead horses rest in peace. I’d be happy to collect any submissions into a complete community guide that we’d point new members towards.
by Ryan on Jun 16, 2008 10:21 PM EDT 0 recs
In particular, I have been meaning to start up a “Dead Topics” archive — where we not only list the dead topics, but we link to the “classic” trainwreck threads in which they’ve already been beaten to death, just in case anybody doubts that it’s all been said before.
I’d love for everyone to use this thread here to nominate Dead Topics, and dig up some links to those threads for them. Brandon Phillips, anyone? Batting orders?
by Jay on
Jun 16, 2008 11:05 PM EDT
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First, we need a definition of Dead Topic? Is it a topic to which there can be no fresh perspective, no original thinking, a topic for which LGT has displayed omnipotence?
by elsandito on
Jun 16, 2008 11:32 PM EDT
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It isn’t about omnipotence, it’s about having argued it to death already. Most dead topics typically aren’t settled and aren’t every going to get settled.
by Jay on
Jun 17, 2008 10:38 AM EDT
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I wish the Haren debates went on longer. They had future Dead Topic written all over it. Just an impasse built on a crossroads.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jun 17, 2008 11:03 AM EDT
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If it makes you happy, I’m still pissed we didn’t get Haren.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on
Jun 17, 2008 1:25 PM EDT
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Compensatory draft picks. Jeremy Guthrie. Martevich and playing time. Bunting. Victor at first. Peralta (not sucking, moving to third, moving to second, moving to outfield). Pre-emptive: Lonnie Chisenhall’s criminal record (I’d be happy to write it). Barfield for Kouzmanoff. Coco Crisp for Marte. Wedge’s bullpen use (in general). The Yankees. Batting average. Optional assignments. Trading C.C. (to date). Cliff Lee’s hat tip. The 2005 collapse. Ozzie Guillen. Curt Schilling’s meeting with C.C. (!). RISP splits. Willy Taveras. The Red Sox. That discussion we had about the Mirabelli/Grant drafts.
by fleerdon on
Jun 16, 2008 11:58 PM EDT
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How could the Yankees and the Red Sox be dead horses? What the hell would they talk about on BBTN?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
Jun 17, 2008 1:25 AM EDT
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Trading CC is a dead topic? I think that’s going to be a hard discussion to avoid.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jun 17, 2008 6:33 AM EDT
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Don’t forget Grit and Trot Nixon’s relationship with it
-Erik
by drerikbrady on
Jun 17, 2008 8:20 AM EDT
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Ideally, when this project is finished, we can have entire conversations that are just links to previously held conversations.
by fleerdon on
Jun 17, 2008 9:43 AM EDT
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Like the numbered Andy Marte arguments?
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on
Jun 17, 2008 9:54 AM EDT
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That cannot be a dead topic because grit, basically by definition, never dies.
Proud supporter of the Cleveland.
by fwembt on
Jun 17, 2008 10:46 AM EDT
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Grit grounds out to short with the tying run in scoring position.
by odradek on
Jun 17, 2008 3:20 PM EDT
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this is a pretty good list.
Grady not batting leadoff. Grady moving to Left Field. LeBron James. Cheif Wahoo. Omar Vizquel being your all time favorite Indian. Why we should sign Kenny Lofton. A team’s chances to win once in the playoffs. Shapiro’s draft success. Letting any player go for nothing especially in Rule 5. Why a post arbitration major leauger isn’t overpaid. What average means. Chuck’s prediction about Hafner’s contract. Whether Thome is or isn’t a bad guy. How much you still love Manny. What a 5th starter actually is. Your Fantasy Team.
by Brick. on
Jun 17, 2008 10:29 AM EDT
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i like the jokes, too. i’m talking about when there’s an argument about it – the back and forth about “you would have taken the money” “he said he’d never leave.” “it’s a business move” “he’s a traitor”.....
by Brick. on
Jun 17, 2008 11:09 AM EDT
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I hate to say it because I feel like I’m silencing people, but maybe include links to times we’ve hashed out the “is Chief Wahoo/The Indians name racist?” discussion. I don’t really feel anyone’s going to change anyone else’s mind at this point, and we’ve definitely had new people to the site bring it up before.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on
Jun 17, 2008 10:55 AM EDT
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that’s the reason i listed it. those conversations are just awful.
by Brick. on
Jun 17, 2008 11:10 AM EDT
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I mean, I get why people want to argue it one way or the other, but just. At this point I think all the arguments have been made.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on
Jun 17, 2008 11:18 AM EDT
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But didn’t the most recent discussion get us notice by Neyer?
Actually, I agree with you, AngG, but I think it would be worth doing a permalink to the latest discussion thread and put it up on the sidebar and then ban it from future threads forever. We could refer newcomers to that link if it comes up.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on
Jun 17, 2008 11:47 AM EDT
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