Should LGT have a Wiki?
by AngG on Jun 16, 2008 3:33 PM EDT
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PrintI've been noticing, as new people come to the site -- and as old people come back from long absences -- there's a bit of animosity held toward the regulars here at LGT for being "elitist." Which, uh, we certainly can be. As with any group of friends -- or at least, people who interact on a semi-regular basis -- we've developed a tendency toward inside jokes and running gags, and we've also reached a certain point where we tire of certain arguments.
None of this is at all problematic, but it does make the learning curve fairly steep for new or long-absent members, and it can create a bit of an echo-chamber effect if we keep chasing out those who are newcomers who may not get that we just really don't need to talk about Brandon Phillips again, or who just doesn't understand why we need to HIRE MARIO'S SON.
Some of you may or may not know that I am an occasional commenter over at Red Reporter -- and you can just shush, Chuck -- and one thing that made my decision to begin commenting over there a lot easier is that they have a Wiki, which explains some of their inside jokes, what the history of some of their posters is (their E5s, if you will), and why they just really don't feel like beating the dead horse of whether or not Adam Dunn is actually good at baseball again.
Now, I understand taking a cue from our friends down south might not, necessarily, be all that appealing, but is it something anyone here might be willing to help me work on? I know there are a number of free Wiki-hosting & generating sites that we could use for this purpose, and having Wiki entries with former arguments pre-referenced might save everyone a lot of time. On the other hand, it does feel slightly self-aggrandizing. Your thoughts?
(And okay, most of the new people who can't backread aren't going to read the Wiki either, but sometimes you just need your memory jogged about where "demolish the bathroom" came from.)
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As a relative newbie, I award you a steaming bowl of Skyline Chili, 5-ways, for your good idea. At the very least, a place where people could go to refresh their memories about ongoing BASEBALL-RELATED discussions would be a good thing (i.e., Hafner sucks/no he doesn’t, Marte sucks/no he doesn’t, Wedge sucks/no he doesn’t, and other classic debates to which we’re not adding much at this point).
i’m not sure having the information available means there won’t be rookie hazing. It’ll just be, you know, less Baseball Player In a Hooters Waitress Costume and more a Baseball Player in a Pikachu Costume kinda hazing.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
Occasionally someone will pop up and starting saying stuff like this. The fact is, we’ve been growing steadily as a community since the end of 2005. This kind of criticism might start to seem apt if we ever actually plateau in terms of readership and participation, but we’ve had several orders-of-magnitude jumps in traffic with no end in sight. Them’s the facts — maybe the community is functioning pretty well as-is, whether that goes against your theories or not.
The comment that I replied to said that they think hazing is part of having a healthy community. I replied and said that it doesn’t seem like a good idea to me if you want to keep expanding the community.
No offense, but it seems to me that having a hazing policy is a bad idea. Not that LGT has one, not that you guys aren’t expanding, etc.
Very confusing. Of course, there’s no policy, although it would be fun to write one.
I don’t run this site, but it seems from the outside that the goal is to have enough people to have thoughtful, fun, and thorough discussions. I think there’s enough here for that, but it also seems like more people join all the time, which is great.
It just seems like quality is prized over quantity, while still being open, and I think it’s fantastic.
I’m not even sure, like, where to begin. (And Bannedini was a little before my time and I don’t recall GTF especially clearly.)
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
Brandini, I believe, was his monikor. And he couldn’t hold a candle to the original LGT troll: Tribe Inne.
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.
I remember Tribe Inne…no idea they were one and the same though…
http://www.on-the-bench.blogspot.com - an irreverant take on EPL football (that's soccer!)
by Luis (Tribe Fan in London) on Jun 17, 2008 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions
There is already an LGT Wiki in the works — actually, more like an Indians wiki that has room for LGT-specific stuff. I’m not terribly interested in the inside-jokes FAQ myself — surest way to kill a joke is to start explaining it — but if other people really want to write pages like that, I imagine we wouldn’t stop them. It also strikes me that having an explain-all-our-jokes FAQ actually creates more of an impression of self-importance, not less. I love the whole gang, here, but I prefer to keep the focus on the Indians.
I am especially not interested in anything that lavishes attention on those whose main reason for making people miserable was to get more attention. Talk about self-defeating. I understand that they come up in a humorous context now and again, but most of the regulars know that they’re really not worth talking about — and trust me, if you’d had to deal with the psychotic private e-mails, you wouldn’t find this subject the least bit funny, and you’d never, ever bring it up.
I think, upon further consideration, outside of “this is what has gotten people banned in the past, don’t do it” you’re right on the banned user entries being out of line. (Especially since they wouldn’t really have the room to defend themselves, and I think it opens the door up for attacking others currently on the site through a wiki type thing.
As far as explaining inside jokes, some of them are essentially self-explanatory or funny in context, but I don’t think posting, for example, the initial context of “Brodzoski (The Close)” on a wiki would necessarily kill the joke either.
In any case, I posted this question because I knew some people would fall on the anti- (or, at least not-especially-pro-) side, and I definitely wanted to know the arguments against it.
I didn’t know about the currently in the works Wiki, though. Will there be an announcement when it goes live?
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
gahnki … you kind of ripped into me … and then kind of took it back … which is so unfair, because it denies me the fun of ripping back into you in kind. I even had it all written up — and it was a doozy, it was gonna hurt. But, since you already basically called a truce, it wouldn’t have been cool, so I just deleted all of it.
The general message I’d like you and everyone else to take is that, this may look easy, but that doesn’t mean it is. Ryan and I put up with a lot of BS that you guys never see, or some of it gets seen briefly by a few people, but we see all of it, and then there’s the behind-the-scenes stuff. We have some very specific ideas about how to run the place — to keep it pumping with the kind of Tribe talk we think is cool, to keep it a site that’s palatable for the dozens of great people who are capable of making it that kind of place. And we’re pretty committed to that and even disciplined about it.
But anyway, there is a lot of BS, sometimes very aggravating and totally pointless, and once in a while, maybe try to keep that in mind, so that when we say, “Maybe not this,” you know, maybe give us the benefit of the doubt that there’s actually a good reason. If that’s okay with you. I’m always open and receptive to private feedback over e-mail, and Ryan is, too. If you feel strongly about something or are concerned, take it there.
This better be in the book…along with the psychotic emails. I’m getting pretty giddy for the book’s release…any chance we can add it as a sort of supplemental handout with Byrd’s book? This way at least a few people will buy the poor guy’s work.
by supermarioelia on Jun 16, 2008 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
They’re much easier to remember fondly now that they’re not here. In fact, I’d wager we’re actually remembering funny responses to them – “Last word.” – more than we are remembering their actual comments.
UnfrozenCaveman, anyone? Yeah, me neither.
by fleerdon on Jun 16, 2008 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions
How about something that covers the lesser infractions, the things that are not covered by the ground rules? For instance, not using the subject line, and the hackneyed arguments over Wedge, Marte, Sizemore down in the order, and other completely done topics. I don’t mind getting ripped. I’m pretty self-depricating and love a good laugh at my own expense. However, I’m not a big fan of generally rude behavior. You can call it hazing, but frankly it is just impolite. Why does the inherant anonymity of blogging give beer muscles to the anti-social act? It’s a game. It happens to be the greatest game in my view. Enjoy and include.
proverbial "moron in a hurry"
by 94neverout on Jun 16, 2008 10:10 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You know, I know we don’t use the subject line, but is there a reason we don’t outside of that it’s kinda superfluous?
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
I think once you’re used to reading without, it’s incredibly obnoxious to use. Try to read a thread at SSS and see what you think.
Il faut d'abord durer.
There’s a blog called Small Sample Size?!
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 18, 2008 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay, it’s a bit odd, yet logical.
On the old platform, we never used the subject line — sort of. The software copied the subject line from the subject of the Story/Diary/Fanpost, or from the Subject of the replied-to Comment. So we all got used to reading that way, skipping over the subjects.
On other SBN sites, for some reason, the subject never copied, and yet it was required to have one. So people would start typing the message in the subject and then continue it in the body. This was (and is) an awkward, disjointed and awful way to read — and to write. The vast majority of these comments don’t really require a subject any more than a text message on your phone, or in an IM session.
So when we got to the new platform — which has a subject line, doesn’t copy it, but also doesn’t require it — I felt (and enough others agreed I guess) that we should continue the tradition of basically not using it, because it makes for a much less choppy, disjointed writing, in addition to making the page much easier on the eyes. And it really hasn’t been much effort to convince people to go along with it. I think it’s fairly self-evident that this way is just better.
I have lobbied the SBN folks (though not all that hard) to eliminate the Subject line entirely, or at least eliminate it for reply-to comments. I think they are hesitant to do this because of probably a million comments that already have them, but you can keep displaying them without entering new ones. Basically, these forums are more like chat sessions, they are not like e-mails or office memos, and the interface should reflect that, as all good interfaces reflect the essential nature of the activity they present and enable.
That would just be another place for you to mis-type words….
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 17, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
To be honest, I don’t really see the use of an official wiki, since this is first and foremost a baseball blog – once it becomes about personalities and the like, the baseball tends to take a back seat. And I’d really not like to revisit those, uh, characters who are no longer with us, for reasons that I hope everyone understands.
But I do think that a short community introduction would be very helpful to those new to the community and to let our various dead horses rest in peace. I’d be happy to collect any submissions into a complete community guide that we’d point new members towards.
In particular, I have been meaning to start up a “Dead Topics” archive — where we not only list the dead topics, but we link to the “classic” trainwreck threads in which they’ve already been beaten to death, just in case anybody doubts that it’s all been said before.
I’d love for everyone to use this thread here to nominate Dead Topics, and dig up some links to those threads for them. Brandon Phillips, anyone? Batting orders?
First, we need a definition of Dead Topic? Is it a topic to which there can be no fresh perspective, no original thinking, a topic for which LGT has displayed omnipotence?
It isn’t about omnipotence, it’s about having argued it to death already. Most dead topics typically aren’t settled and aren’t every going to get settled.
I wish the Haren debates went on longer. They had future Dead Topic written all over it. Just an impasse built on a crossroads.
Steel Nick
If it makes you happy, I’m still pissed we didn’t get Haren.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 17, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Compensatory draft picks. Jeremy Guthrie. Martevich and playing time. Bunting. Victor at first. Peralta (not sucking, moving to third, moving to second, moving to outfield). Pre-emptive: Lonnie Chisenhall’s criminal record (I’d be happy to write it). Barfield for Kouzmanoff. Coco Crisp for Marte. Wedge’s bullpen use (in general). The Yankees. Batting average. Optional assignments. Trading C.C. (to date). Cliff Lee’s hat tip. The 2005 collapse. Ozzie Guillen. Curt Schilling’s meeting with C.C. (!). RISP splits. Willy Taveras. The Red Sox. That discussion we had about the Mirabelli/Grant drafts.
by fleerdon on Jun 16, 2008 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Ideally, when this project is finished, we can have entire conversations that are just links to previously held conversations.
by fleerdon on Jun 17, 2008 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
this is a pretty good list.
Grady not batting leadoff. Grady moving to Left Field. LeBron James. Cheif Wahoo. Omar Vizquel being your all time favorite Indian. Why we should sign Kenny Lofton. A team’s chances to win once in the playoffs. Shapiro’s draft success. Letting any player go for nothing especially in Rule 5. Why a post arbitration major leauger isn’t overpaid. What average means. Chuck’s prediction about Hafner’s contract. Whether Thome is or isn’t a bad guy. How much you still love Manny. What a 5th starter actually is. Your Fantasy Team.
I hate to say it because I feel like I’m silencing people, but maybe include links to times we’ve hashed out the “is Chief Wahoo/The Indians name racist?” discussion. I don’t really feel anyone’s going to change anyone else’s mind at this point, and we’ve definitely had new people to the site bring it up before.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
I mean, I get why people want to argue it one way or the other, but just. At this point I think all the arguments have been made.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
But didn’t the most recent discussion get us notice by Neyer?
Actually, I agree with you, AngG, but I think it would be worth doing a permalink to the latest discussion thread and put it up on the sidebar and then ban it from future threads forever. We could refer newcomers to that link if it comes up.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 17, 2008 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
To be honest, I always find it a little strange when I remember we’re being watched by Real Sports Journalists. I’m not sure why it weirds me out, though.
In any case, I think your idea is a good one if it doesn’t make too much work for Ryan and Jay.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
But didn’t someone send it to him? It’s not like the mainstream sports media is finding us on their own.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Jun 18, 2008 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s like kissing your significant other with your parents in the room. As long as you don’t get really into it, you’re fine. But, at the same time, you are always aware someone is looking at you.
Proud supporter of the Cleveland.
by Brad D on Jun 18, 2008 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, or like making out with your ex-girlfriend’s best friend, who you always kind of had a thing for, at the bar, like a week after you break up, and so your ex is there, but whatever, is there a freakin’ waiting period or whatever, ex equals ex, you know, and anyway it’s not as if you’re doing anything inappropri—well, that last little thing may have been over the line, but you know, that’s what beer’s for.
I’m sorry, what was the question?
by fleerdon on Jun 18, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
What I have in mind is a “Dead Topics” page that’s placed in the Essential Links sidebar. That page would list dead topics, perhaps brief description, with links to the most drawn-out world-ending debates on each.
Yeah, that’s sort of what I was suggesting.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 17, 2008 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
That sounds awesome and helpful. Let me know if you need someone to go through and find old discussion pages. I’ve got a lot of free time on my weekends these days while I’m avoiding cleaning the kitchen.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
The curse of Rocky Colavito?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 17, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m under 50, too (though barely). It was a joke.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 17, 2008 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, so you really DO care about Colavito!!
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 17, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no interest, and I imagine most others don’t either, in discussing how Shapiro supposedly messed up in letting Guthrie and Phillips go, but I think we may be able to learn something from those transactions. For example, I have seen a couple places around the internet about how “busted” top prospects are an area where a team can get some good value. I’m not sure if this theory is true, but it seems to make a little bit of sense. These guys were high draft picks, that had success in the high minors, but weren’t able to translate that success for their parent club. If the theory is that a change of scenery helps these guys mentally get in the right place, then this is an area that the Indians should be searching out, especially if we are in a season where contending might not be a realistic option, as most of these hypothetical persons are out of options, thus being easier to carry for a non-contending team.
Josh Hamilton is an extraordinary example. I come up with Jason Isringhausen, Phil Nevin, Jeff Suppan, and Jermaine Dye, off the top of my head. Tony Clark (to some extent) and Carlos Pena. And on and on.
Tyler Houston kept finding work. Most of these guys go the way of Matt Anderson and Wilton Guererro, and Jose Cruz Jr., Wily Mo Pena, etc.
It depends on the case, on the nature of the bust, but these fallen super-prospects who impressed at one point are worth the second looks they get.
For the record, I probably wouldn’t get the inside jokes even if there were a wiki. But I’m slow.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 16, 2008 11:35 PM EDT reply actions
do jog my memory about the bathroom, or the kitchen, or whatever it is . . . since it was referred to just yesterday in response to one of my comments on a different thread, I think I have a right to know. as for mario or e5 (whom I do know about) or the rest of the cast of characters, I care little. I come here to see if some insight is happening or if misguided press speculation is being set straight. If people participate in running jokes between themselves, I just skip on by . . . can’t see the point in coming late to the party and trying to laugh at jokes told hours before when the tequila shots made them seem hilarious (which, of course, they very well may have been . . . just not in a position to judge).
. . . just my 2 cents (wiki ref.)
Allergic to the inside-joke culture?
by ken from alexandria on Jun 17, 2008 8:05 AM EDT up reply actions
obviously not.
did I express myself poorly?
I just meant that I don’t pause to wonder what the son of Mario here below has do with anything if I wasn’t involved in the first place. And I haven’t been involved in enough running discussions to become attuned to people’s ‘character’ (and anyway, the ‘characters’ remark was written in reference to Ryan’s mention of same above . . . so go pick on him you big meanies)
Like Steel Nick, I appreciated your ironic little twist, and indiansfan’s prolonged absence makes me wonder whether there can be any room for earnestness in our sarcastic and self-referential little world. Bah!
by ken from alexandria on Jun 17, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
That revelation was one of LGT’s finest moments.
by ken from alexandria on Jun 18, 2008 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d argue that the weeks of “Indiansfan says hello” to any female who registered were right there as well.
by Fundamentals on Jun 18, 2008 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I fear that something might have happened to indiansfan. Anybody seen him anywhere else on the internet?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
I read something the other day that was really long, had no paragraph breaks and made me lose interest halfway through. It could have been him.
Just my two cents
Proud supporter of the Cleveland.
I’m not saying that, but I don’t see what it costs us to make some allowance for eccentricity. Sometimes it just means letting one’s eyes glaze over.
by ken from alexandria on Jun 19, 2008 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Not just allowance, we should revel in it. indiansfan is/was one of my favorite posters, but then again E5 and Brandini usta amuse me too. There’s something about earnestness that I admire – kinda like being a gritty poster.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on Jun 19, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Remember when Jay defended E5 as being a legitimate poster? That was pretty funny stuff.
by supermarioelia on Jun 19, 2008 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Earlier in the season, he posted on MinorLeagueBall that he had been swamped with work and he hadn’t had time to follow baseball as much, let alone post about it.
by Fundamentals on Jun 19, 2008 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions
To expand on this, I actually lamented my inability to post on LGT this season to my wife, who replied that “your work-life balance must be completely out of whack if you don’t have the time to post on LGT.”
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jun 20, 2008 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ve never been in a cast of characters before. I should warn you guys that I have zero acting experience.
by supermarioelia on Jun 17, 2008 7:52 AM EDT up reply actions
You’re gonna need to acquire some acting skills if you wanna be a good clinician. At least get your poker face together.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Especially before your first depostion.
(As long as we’re revisiting old topics – I couldn’t resisit)
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
Didn’t see nothin’, don’t know nothin’ and was never there at the hospital at that time anyway.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
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