... in this imaginary swap, the Indians get center fielder Colby Rasmus and catcher Bryan Anderson. As Kevin Goldstein will tell you, the tools-laden Rasmus is one of the best prospects in all of baseball, and Anderson has the potential to be the next, well, Victor Martinez ... On the whole, the acquisition of Ramus and Anderson would give the Indians a much-needed dose of high-upside offensive talent. That's something they sorely need.
Mock Blockbuster, Part III — the latest in Dayn Perry's series in which he crafts a blockbuster trade that "makes sense for all teams involved" — equal parts "serious prescriptive and idle daydreaming."
about 1 year ago
Jay
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Hmm…who else could have possibly brought up trading for Colby Rasmus?
by gahnki on
Jun 16, 2008 1:42 PM EDT
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i think you take that deal today if it’s there – before we even decide we’re buyers or sellers.
by Brick. on
Jun 16, 2008 1:46 PM EDT
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I’d say a catching prospect who’s only 21 yrs old and has an OPS of .787 in AAA is probably more than “decent”. I like Anderson. And Rasmus is a stud, although he has struggled ealier this year for a couple months (he is starting to come out of it recently) His AA .932 OPS at the age of 20 speaks for itself. Also stole 18 bases that season.
by hans on
Jun 16, 2008 3:39 PM EDT
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Hypothetically...
Rasmus to LF, Benfran to DH, Hafner ummmmmm
The 2008 Cleveland Indians: Home of the Triple Steal, Unassisted Triple Play, and not a heck of a lot more.
by westbrook on
Jun 16, 2008 1:49 PM EDT
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I REFUSE TO BELIEVE THAT CISCO WILL OUT HIT HAFNER. MY WORLD NEEDS ORDER.
by dgcambridge on
Jun 16, 2008 2:57 PM EDT
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Do you believe Hafner will hit over an .800 OPS ? Because Ben can do that, And I’m not so sure about Hafner anymore….
by hans on
Jun 16, 2008 3:42 PM EDT
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I do. Haven’t you seen the rusty old wagon I’m sitting in? But it’s not that I’ve diagnosed something in his swing, it’s just that I don’t believe the swing analyses coming from others.
by dgcambridge on
Jun 17, 2008 6:55 PM EDT
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AL CENTRAL STANDINGS
W L PCT GB STRK
Chicago 38 31 .550 0 Lost 92
Minnesota 34 36 .485 4.5 Lost 92
Cleveland 33 37 .471 5.5 Lost 92
Detroit 32 37 .463 6 Lost 93
Kansas City 28 42 .400 10.5 Lost 92
by Gradyforpresident on
Jun 16, 2008 1:51 PM EDT
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i was shocked to find out that we’ve lost 92 in a row now. seems like we’ve won a few here or there.
by Brick. on
Jun 16, 2008 2:10 PM EDT
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Yeah, but everybody else in our division has lost over 90 in a row. I thought we played those teams recently.
by elsandito on
Jun 16, 2008 2:24 PM EDT
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just shows you how weak the central is this year.
by Brick. on
Jun 16, 2008 2:25 PM EDT
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for the record i was only commenting on the fact that it said everyone had lost 92 in a row, except the tigers lost 93 in a row. that had to be deliberate.
by Gradyforpresident on
Jun 17, 2008 3:46 PM EDT
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I’m not even going to hide behind a playoff-related argument here. I want to trade C.C. because I don’t want to get burned, and because I’m excited for what that could make us in 2009. That compromises our post-season chances in 2008, sure, but this offense bores me to tears, and ultimately having a team I enjoy watching is more important to me than the 2008 post-season.
by fleerdon on
Jun 16, 2008 2:51 PM EDT
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This is what I keep coming back to.
Not trading CC and possibly making the postseason is not (IMO) worth how bad this team could be next year without Westbrook, CC, and Byrd. I say reload.
That doesn’t even take us out of contention, necessarily. I’m just throwing Matt Kemp and Jon Broxton out there (I know, I know). Young players can still help a team. Look at Gomez in Minnesota.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jun 16, 2008 6:38 PM EDT
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Unfortunately, most of the comments here were deleted, because they were replies (direct or indirect) to two comments with profanity.
We have no control over the replies getting deleted. Profanity is against the rules here — the rules you agreed to when you signed up.
by Jay on
Jun 16, 2008 3:50 PM EDT
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We’ll live.
I hung out with Erik the other night, he was in town on business, and as I was talking in my totally normal style — laced with profanities and inappropriate ideas — it did occur to me how funny it is that I probably have a reputation as some kind of prude here. Anyone who’s met me can tell you, it’s not that I mind the swearing, it’s just that Ryan and I have a shared idea of what kind of site we want to have and how to accomplish that.
by Jay on
Jun 16, 2008 5:54 PM EDT
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I think we talked about the reputation you have here a few days ago—we all envision you as George Clooney, most particularly George Clooney in Ocean’s 11.
Il faut d'abord durer.
by CU Adam on
Jun 16, 2008 6:51 PM EDT
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I am so much less smooth than that, but occasionally I pull off a line reading with some decent timing.
by Jay on
Jun 16, 2008 10:58 PM EDT
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I can confirm Jay’s lack of smooth.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on
Jun 18, 2008 10:21 AM EDT
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If Jay is smooth, consider me Sam Perkins.
by Fredward on
Jun 18, 2008 1:16 PM EDT
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I’d do it. I’m with Tyler.
At the same time, I don’t think this package is realistic.
by afh4 on
Jun 16, 2008 4:02 PM EDT
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To me the value of CC, and hence the return for him, has some degrees:
Least value: waiting to the trade deadline and then trading him to a team that can only consider him as a rental for the stretch run.
More value: Trading him earlier so he has more starts for new team.
More still: Trading him to one of the few teams that can afford a new contract and will then have sole ownership of the window to sign him before he becomes a true FA.
Most: Trade him before the deadline to a team that can afford him and offer an immediate negotiating window to sign him now.
Can’t see the Cards giving that much up unless they were pretty confident they could sign him long term now or later.
But its always nice to see such speculation – the more scuttlebutt about different teams being interested, the more likely a GM will overspend given a tight window.
by mcrose on
Jun 16, 2008 6:44 PM EDT
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Could the Indians make this trade and still win the Central in 2008?
by odradek on
Jun 16, 2008 7:49 PM EDT
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Probably not, but it’s not out of the question.
We lose the pitching, that’s for sure. Colby Rasmus could come up and go Jay Bruce on the AL, but I wouldn’t see a reason to push it if Choo/Gutz/Francisco could platoon enough to be as productive as they’ve been.
The bigger question is the pitching. Our staff would be Carmona (who may not be back yet), Lee, Laffey, Byrd, and Sowers. That seems good enough depending on Carmona. Of course if we trade Byrd as well, it gets interesting. That’s more of a white-flag move.
I’m hesitant to deal CC if it doesn’t get us a pitcher that’s at least ready by summer of 2009. But I’d have to think twice for Rasmus. Any way you look at it he’s a catch.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jun 16, 2008 8:07 PM EDT
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I agree, the state of the pitching staff next season is a huge question. I think ideally, we’d want to get back a young, major league ready pitcher to slot into the rotation (maybe not this year, since trading C.C. kills our playoff hopes, but definitely for 2009).
Are any of the resident Buffalo experts more optimistic about the situation than I am? I’m really not familiar with our pitching depth past Sowers and Laffey for the immediate future. So assuming C.C. is gone via trade or free agency 2009 will feature Carmona, AAA pitcher/Westbrook, Laffey, FA/Byrd, Sowers. Unless they sign Byrd to a one year deal (possible at his age, but I doubt it) and Sowers somehow turns it around, the rotation is going to take a nasty hit pretty soon.
Not to be a broken record, but I still don’t see us getting a lot back for Sabathia based on the return for Santana last year. I do think we need MLB-ready pitching in return though.
by Pronk33 on
Jun 16, 2008 9:13 PM EDT
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Wow. I completely forgot we will have Cliff Lee still. Ok, so that’s not nearly as bad, but still kind of a concern. Uh….I’ll just show myself out.
by Pronk33 on
Jun 16, 2008 9:15 PM EDT
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In the dark recesses of my mind I like to imagine us completely falling out of the race. Hard. And just deciding to blow it up somewhat and do our best to field a competitive but even younger team in 2009. We trade not only CC, but Betancourt, Byrd, and especially Cliff Lee, as well as Garko, Blake, and Gutierrez. I figure the haul we’d get back from all these trades would be enough to drool/mull over that I’d forget we’d actually be playing games for the rest of 2008.
That’s just a small part of me that thinks about that, however. Go Tribe.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jun 16, 2008 9:44 PM EDT
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Lee has the potential to be every bit as good as CC – that’s right I said it. Let that sink in. Lee could be responsible for as many wins as CC over the rest of the season. And he’s under contract – a club friendly contract at that. We’d hafta – and should – get a hell of a lot more for Lee than we would CC.
Other than Lee – and maybe Garko – I can’t see us getting much of a haul – even to a conternder – for the rest.
Anyway, relax – we won’t know much for another 30 days or so. But I’ll be ab -sol – utely flabberghasted if we trade Lee.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
Jun 16, 2008 10:21 PM EDT
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I’d only expect the haul to come from a CC, a Lee, or a Garko. Can you imagine packaging Garko with Lee? Nice. I don’t want to do it, but that little corner of me has the wheels turning. Byrd, Blake, they go for some nice young relievers I suppose.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jun 16, 2008 10:31 PM EDT
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Frankly, I don’t see a situation where we trade Garko either.
The 2008 Cleveland Indians: Home of the Triple Steal, Unassisted Triple Play, and not a heck of a lot more.
by westbrook on
Jun 17, 2008 12:30 AM EDT
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I don’t think the Indians would hesitate to trade him, but I don’t think he’d be great trade bait—he’s an average to below average first baseman whose hitting has been decent but not spectacular and who’s old enough that you wonder if he’ll get much better.
If the Indians do fall out of the race, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them unload guys like Carroll and Kobayashi and Byrd (i.e., useful, older veterans another team might want) before they trade a relatively cheap guy like Garko. I’m sure they’d like to unload Dellucci too, but that won’t be as easy.
by peter m on
Jun 17, 2008 10:47 AM EDT
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There is no reason we’d avoid trading Garko.
by Jay on
Jun 17, 2008 11:20 AM EDT
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Strange that we have such a similar line of thinking here. I could easily see a major overhaul coming if a white flag is raised this season. I figured if things are bad enough for Sabathia to get traded mid-season then the offense would have continued to suck (although they have sucked considerably less this month) and we might be looking at a broader overhaul of the team. I’m not sure I’d consider it a rebuilding phase, since there is still a ton of talent on the team even with the removal of the above players.
I’d rather not see a major rebuild happen though, but a few prudent moves to clean house are certainly welcome. By the time all the young players from our system and those brought in via trade mature enough to contribute, guys like Victor and Peralta, etc. will be near or at the end of their contracts. I really, really don’t want to see Sizemore, Victor, and Fausto wasted on a rebuilding team.
by Pronk33 on
Jun 16, 2008 10:22 PM EDT
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I think it’s possible that teams get caught up in a fit of irrational exuberance—I’m hoping—and CC actually nets more than Johan. The market for Santana was confined by his no-trade clause. He could go only to teams that were capable of satisfying his long-contract terms. Sabathia could be the guy that gets the Cubs to the postseason. (Of course, he’d fall apart in the playoffs.) Plus, in the offseason you don’t have the Boston Herald or Newsday screaming for fresh blood. The trading deadline is a time for irrationality, as has been seen in past seasons. Jeff Bagwell for Larry Andersen was a deadline trade, after all.
by odradek on
Jun 16, 2008 10:22 PM EDT
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I agree that a team like the Cubs, Yankees, or Sox may drastically overpay if they feel Sabathia would net them a championship. I just have a pessimistic view based on the Santana trade. Santana did have a no-trade clause, but he also had a full year left on his contract and had a signed deal with NY before leaving town. That eliminates the whole rental player tag.
If Sabathia were dealt straight up, teams would have him for half a season and the playoffs before he hits the market again. I think the only way Cleveland is going to get a great value for Sabathia is if the other team doesn’t have to worry about him leaving them empty handed in less than a year, which means a sign and trade. Sabathia has little to no incentive to do this though and will want to at least test the waters of FA regardless of what team he’s playing for.
by Pronk33 on
Jun 16, 2008 10:31 PM EDT
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The market for Santana was confined by his no-trade clause.
Key point.
Don’t be shocked if C.C. nets more than Johan did.
by Jay on
Jun 16, 2008 11:03 PM EDT
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Do you see a lot of teams who don’t necessarily have the money to resign C.C. going after him as a playoff rental?
On one hand I understand how the no-trade clause limited the number of teams looking at Santana (thus impacting the quality/quantity of trade packages available), but I’m having trouble seeing Sabathia in his walk year being more valuable than Santana in a trade. Could you expand on why you think this may be true?
I don’t disagree too strongly with odradek or yourself, just having trouble wrapping my head around the economics here.
by Pronk33 on
Jun 17, 2008 12:50 AM EDT
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Well another way at looking at it is that most teams can’t afford (or wouldn’t want to take the risk of signing a pitcher to a 18+ milliong a year 5+ year contract), but right now they get a Santana level pitcher in CC for very little monetary cost and the draft picks that go with letting him walk. This doesn’t matter to a team out of contention. But this helps a team like the Cubs, Dodgers, and especially St.Louis solidify a playoff run. The other issue is a team like SF went out and signed Barry Zito and then the team never made the run into the playoffs that they thought they’d be able to do, now they’re stuck with a long-term mega deal and are in the midst of a rebuilding season…There is some extra value in getting a pitcher with little long term risk when a team is on the brink of making the playoffs as opposed to having the same pitcher locked in to a long term expensive deal and the team not making the playoffs and rebuilding…
by hans on
Jun 17, 2008 1:50 AM EDT
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Hans explains it well. I would add one thing: there’s more competition for a ace pitcher in the stretch run. Santana had three prospective teams: NYY, NYM and BOS. Few other teams could afford his contract. For 20 starts (maybe that’s a little high) of Sabathia—which could be sufficient to get a team like the Cubs into the postseason—quite a few teams would be willing to pay. More demand for his services.
by odradek on
Jun 17, 2008 9:32 AM EDT
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I would say that the straight get-that-ring value proposition is less important than the market situation.
With Santana, the Twins had trouble expanding the market even to two teams, let alone three. Not only are there a dozen teams or more that could be in on Sabathia, I would bet that literally a dozen teams are already discussing him as a potential acquisition. Anybody remember the enormous WTF?? reaction when Colon went to the Expos?
There is no team that is in contention that won’t have an interest in Sabathia, and that demand will definitely drive up every team’s perception of what kind of price is “reasonable” — Winner’s Curse is our bitch. Some are already speculating that teams are going to think about fringy guys like Paul Byrd more seriously. I don’t believe for a moment that teams won’t see Sabathia as a massively different value than Byrd. Paul Byrd is a great choice for the job of “warm body in the rotation.” Sabathia shifts the entire rotation completely, slotting in at #1 for almost every contending team. There will be other starters available, but only one Sabathia.
As for win-that-ring value, I think the difference between C.C. and Johan is much smaller than is generally perceived. Johan essentially insisted that he be overpaid in order to get the deal done. Ignoring the vesting/rotation option year, he got a $124.25 extension for five seasons, and that is insane. MORP has him at $93 million, so you could make the case that Santana and his contract net out to a $31 million liability — that may sound crazy, but doesn’t that basically explain why they didn’t get more for the guy? And just to give an example of the various scenarios that get weighted into that value, there is a reasonable chance that he misses around a full season on the DL, and now you’re paying him $31 million per for four healthy seasons.
Of course there is cost of acquisition to consider, because a player like this is scarce, but they paid a fair price for that. But was the value of his acquisition really driven by, or enhanced by, his 2009-2013 seasons, in which they would be required to overpay him?
Consider this: Given the choice, would the Mets have rather just paid him the $13 million for 2008 and negotiate at the end of the season, or given him this deal? I think, given who they gave up and their own finances, they’d have taken the one-year deal without hesitation. I think only the Yankees prefer to take the long-term deal, since they’re hypothetically giving up Phil Hughes and can afford it. For every other team, you have to assume that you can get a better deal — or avoid a worse one — by waiting a year later, and even if he wins another Cy Young, you can probably still be the top bidder at or near the same dollars.
So the upshot of this is, I don’t think acquiring Santana, given the requirements, was really that much more attractive than acquiring Sabathia, with no requirements, and possibly it was actually less attractive. Either way, though, we benefit from a vastly expanded market of potential trade partners.
by Jay on
Jun 17, 2008 11:46 AM EDT
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Nice essay.
Would you consider bumping this FanPost to the top? Seems like we’re getting a little piece of Sabathia news every few days, and I’d hate to lose track of the thoughts we’ve already laid out.
by fleerdon on
Jun 17, 2008 3:19 PM EDT
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It will bump to the top if people care to rec it.
by Jay on
Jun 17, 2008 3:35 PM EDT
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Another good reason
Yanks have a good reason to deal for Sabathia now. Next year’s free agent class of pitchers has no real front line difference makers. The Yankees have to see the writing on the wall…going into a season with Joba, Hughes, Wang, Kennedy and (oldsters Pettit or Mussina) is just not going to get it done in the east, with Boston and Tampa Bay around for keeps. That is not a scary rotation. You put CC at the top and things change fast. And the Yankees would clearly value even a four month window to negotiate. Say they offer CC Santana money. He’s going to turn it down and take the chance his arm falls off? What, for another $10 million (maybe/maybe not). Any agent saying that is a worthwhile risk is really crazy. We throw in Blake or another warm body they need to help them bridge a position and they should come around.
The marginal value of adding a CC to a rotation right now is perceived as very, very high for selected suitors like the Cubs, Phillies, Yankees, Tampa Bay, Cardinals and Dodgers, to name afe, higher than in the off season. Add CC, maybe a team can tell itself it could win 2-3 more games than it would have. That’s huge, that can be the difference between sitting home and playing for the gusto. At least, a team can rationalize the cost that way. I’m not I agree with it. But the Cubs are desperate (oh I wish they had some better prospects!). You don’t think Ned Colletti could be persuaded? Mr. Sign-A-Vet. Hmmm, CC and Cliff Lee to the Dodgers? Wonder what they’d give us?
by Bogalusa Bomber on
Jun 21, 2008 3:24 PM EDT
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Ben Sheets is a free agent next year I believe.
by hans on
Jun 21, 2008 5:53 PM EDT
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You’re right! I like Sheets too, but he’s not quite CC, who is 2 years younger, better stuff, more power, and more strikeouts in a tougher league. Always a small voice that National League pitchers will have more trouble in the AL with the DH and more powerful lineups. Maybe just my AL bias seeping in.
by Bogalusa Bomber on
Jun 21, 2008 7:17 PM EDT
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I agree that he’s not CC. But he’s no slouch when he’s not injured, which he often is.
by hans on
Jun 21, 2008 8:40 PM EDT
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Jeff Bagwell for Larry Andersen was a deadline trade, after all
ahhh …. how about we find a way to get that Kazmir kid. We might have to give up Zambrano to do it, but it’s not like we’re talking about Carlos Zambrano here.
The 2008 Cleveland Indians: Home of the Triple Steal, Unassisted Triple Play, and not a heck of a lot more.
by westbrook on
Jun 17, 2008 12:28 AM EDT
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I seriously wanted the Indians to go after Kazmir this offseason had he not signed the extension with the Rays.
Let's Go 2009!
by emd2k3 on
Jun 17, 2008 9:46 AM EDT
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upcoming offseason, not past.
Let's Go 2009!
by emd2k3 on
Jun 17, 2008 9:47 AM EDT
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that would have been nice.
The 2008 Cleveland Indians: Home of the Triple Steal, Unassisted Triple Play, and not a heck of a lot more.
by westbrook on
Jun 19, 2008 2:05 PM EDT
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Could the Indians make this trade and still win the Central in 2008?
Hey, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
by dgcambridge on
Jun 17, 2008 7:02 PM EDT
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Oops, wrong thread, this is the let’s consider blowing up everything thread.
Anyway, the focus seemed to be on acquiring prospects, but is it not possible to acquire a player, or two, that can actually upgrade our offense now?
That’s why a guy like Atkins came up; not a potential cornerstone like Rasmus, but help right now and for a couple more years.
Can we get two guys like that? A guy like that and a prospect or two?
There’s no way we’re going to totally make up for the ‘08 downgrade in pitching if we trade CC, but we should be able to get some immediate return in the offense, no?
by dgcambridge on
Jun 17, 2008 7:16 PM EDT
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Our pitching – our starting pitching any way – will be just fine without CC next year. But we’ll still have holes at second, third, and probably one of the corner outfield spots – not to mention DH. If we can fill even one of those holes by trading CC I’m all for it. One and a half – a starter plus some kinda A+ prospect – better yet. I just don’t know if the Cards or Yankees or BoSox are desparate enough yet to make that kinda deal for a rental. Although I do have high hopes for the outer limits of Hank Stienbrenner’s idiocy. He’s a much bigger moron than his ol’ man. And his ol’ man sets a pretty high standard for idiocy.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
by mauichuck on
Jun 17, 2008 9:07 PM EDT
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I agree with this as well. The reality is that while we have advanced a lot of young talent to Cleveland over the past 3-4 years, we have failed for a variety of reasons to replace that talent in our upper minors (at least in terms of positional players). We have holes that are not likely to be filled internally and that are also not likely to be adequately filled via free agency. Trading CC is seemingly the best way to address this problem.
by APV on
Jun 18, 2008 11:10 AM EDT
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That’s a lot of justification. You could have just told me it’s because he’s fat.
by fleerdon on
Jun 18, 2008 11:55 AM EDT
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This Yanks organization seems poised to completely freak out about the Wang situation, and potentially vastly overpay for CC. W/ a top-5 rated farm system, seems like we could engineer something pretty favorable for the Tribe.
by DontCallMeJoey on
Jun 18, 2008 2:20 PM EDT
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I really don’t think the Yanks system is a top-5 system. Especially in terms of the Indians needs, near-ready offensive talent.
by APV on
Jun 18, 2008 2:31 PM EDT
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Yeah, it is certainly over-rated if its considered top-5. There’s simply no way to get away from the bias towards them and Boston when just about any baseball fan name guys like Hughes, Kennedy, Tabata, Elsbury, Bucholtz, Masterson, etc. yet have never heard of a guy like Rasmus from the Cards, or Clement from Seattle.
Hughes would be a nice player, but I don’t like any of the other guys. Don’t get me wrong there all fine prospects, but I don’t see any of them being better than a guy like Kemp from LA, Rasmus, or some of the other players we could potentially get for CC.
by hans on
Jun 18, 2008 2:44 PM EDT
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“Hey, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”
This team is 33-37 and a lot of the time they look like a team that couldn’t have won 33. I doubt that this cliche applies to our Indians.
by elsandito on
Jun 17, 2008 7:21 PM EDT
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I’m not in favor of giving up on this season, but this is the first trade proposal I’ve heard that I find plausible and palatable. Is it gilding the lily to ask that the Cards throw in a pitcher younger than 21 with an excellent K rates and / or groundball tendencies? If so, I’m behind this trade as of this moment.
by jhon on
Jun 17, 2008 7:35 PM EDT
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Oh, and if you trade CC, well, might as well trade Byrd and others unless the return significantly improves us this year. I’m not yet sure how much this speculative deal achieves that.
by jhon on
Jun 17, 2008 7:37 PM EDT
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Well Rasmus is on the cusp of breaking into the majors and as one of the better prospects. He could break out on the scene and cure our outlfield problems for years for very cheap.
by hans on
Jun 18, 2008 12:43 AM EDT
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