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Derek Shelton Watch:

I'm marking the over/under as 10 days as the remaining length of his tenure with Cleveland (June 11th)

Link 2 months ago 3444ant_black_tiny APV Comment 30 comments 0 recs |

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Speaking of bets, I believe you owe me two 6-packs of my beer of choice, Chuck. June 1 has come and gone with Francisco and Cabrera both in Cleveland…

by APV on Jun 2, 2008 5:10 PM EDT   0 recs

I can tell you right now how this plays out. They get demoted next May, and Chuck tells you he won the bet.

by Jay on Jun 2, 2008 5:38 PM EDT to parent up   2 recs

Very legit LOL. Rrrrec.

by tabler84 on Jun 2, 2008 7:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’ll take the over.

by gahnki on Jun 2, 2008 5:22 PM EDT   0 recs

13 runs just guaranteed the over. It’s safe to say you can reset your over/under clock to start ticking 2 weeks from today (I’m using the Mike Rouse precedent.)

by PatBordersHelmet on Jun 3, 2008 9:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

the next homestand starts on 6/11. my guess is that if things don’t turn around they tell him not to bother unpacking from the road trip.

i pick then bc at some point they are going to have to make changes for business reasons as much as baseball reasons. a .230something average and 3 or fewer runs 60% of the time doesn’t put asses in the seats. they’re not going to sign bonds or trade for bay, and they can’t fire the whole lineup. so just as a change for change’s sake, and as a (very small) gesture to the ticket buying public, the hitting coach goes when the team comes home.

by mpstable on Jun 2, 2008 5:31 PM EDT   0 recs

Do you think they’ll have the whole guillotine in public square thing for the ticket holders to watch?

by hans on Jun 2, 2008 5:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m saying Over because I think Wedge is ridiculous enough to put his neck out for his guys. I think Wedge and Shelton might be gone in July, with Lovullo moving up or, possibly, Skinner moving over.

It’s not a very Shapiro thing to do but, as has been said, a change for change’s sake is going to be necessary soon.

by afh4 on Jun 2, 2008 5:43 PM EDT   0 recs

It’s not a very Shapiro thing to do but, as has been said, a change for change’s sake is going to be necessary soon.

I’m sorry but a change for changes sake is the exact type of idiocy that this organization is known for being against.

by gahnki on Jun 2, 2008 5:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Putting a lot of stock into who’s managing or being hitting coach is the exact type of idiocy that this organization is known for being against.

by afh4 on Jun 3, 2008 1:34 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Huh? I can tell you that the hitting coach has a very real responsibility on a team. He is the one breaking down the tape and relaying the trouble with their approaches. He is the one they go to for advice, and he is the one who knows what he is talking about. But, hey, since the hitting coach doesn’t really matter then let’s just fire him and go without one.

A change for changes sake is about the stupidest thing you could possibly do. If there is no reason to change something then why take the risk of doing it?

If there is something wrong and a change must be made then do it. But what exactly does making a change for changes sake do?

by gahnki on Jun 3, 2008 3:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You’re conflating the argument that the difference between managers and hitting coaches is minimal and the argument that the position of managers or hitting coaches or whatever doesn’t matter. They aren’t the same thing.

1-Few, if any, managers or coaches have a discernible impact on teams when compared to their peers. For the most part, they are all “baseball men” who’s ultimate impact on players’ performances is probably close to negligible in relation to each other. For an example of this, look at, umm, every manager ever. They are all good when they have players having good seasons, bad when the opposite happens. This is even moreso true of hitting and pitching coaches. The exceptions are few and far between.

therefore

2-It doesn’t really matter who is employed as manager/coach as long it’s not a total moron. If it was someoe innovative or whatever that might be cool but other than that, meh.

You’re acting like I meant “change for change’s sake” while the team is 10 games over. The implication in my statement is that you make a change based on poor results, even if you can’t directly link them to “Wedge uses his relievers as outfielders” or “Shelton tells them to not swing in 3-2 counts.” The results suck, even though I suspect the process looks almost indistinguishable from that of every other major league hitting coach and manager.

So, when I say change for change’s sake, I mean only that there’s some anecdotal argument for clearing the air and making the players and fans feel like a “change is being made.” Even if you can’t really explain why Wedge and Shelton are being fired (which no one possibly can-this is the players’ faults ultimately; no one overhauled all their approaches or misdeployed them) it’s ok to fire them, essentially for the heck of it.

Billy Beane pretty famously did this with Art Howe. Howe was fired because he didn’t win in the playoffs, which Beane has outspokenly said isn’t really anybody’s fault-that it’s a crapshoot. Still, Beane decided to do it, despite the fact that Howe was coming off three seasons 296 games (!) the previous three seasons. Beane’s implication, at least to me, is that it doesn’t really matter who’s doing this job as long as they don’t do anything moronic.

To me, the hitting coach is pretty similar to the athletic trainer, just with a lot more pub. All the candidates at the major league level are qualified and they all look the same on paper. You might find a great one occasionally but more than likely they’re all going to do the same thing-whether that’s suggesting rest and ice or telling a guy to quit dropping his hands.

by afh4 on Jun 3, 2008 5:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

There’s an obvious psychological value to changing a coach. You could have a priest come in and bless the bats. You could sacrifice a goat. Doing anything will improve productivity. Perhaps the Indians aren’t there yet—even though the offensive numbers are incredibly bad—but if they finish this road trip still hitting like Night of the Living Dead, then maybe it’s time.

by odradek on Jun 3, 2008 5:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ninety percent of this game is half mental, you know.

by Jay on Jun 3, 2008 6:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

To me, the hitting coach is pretty similar to the athletic trainer, just with a lot more pub. All the candidates at the major league level are qualified and they all look the same on paper.

Each hitting coach has a distinct approach at how they teach and relate their message. They may have the same message, but how they relay it is different for each man.

The managers main responsibility is to keep the clubhouse happy and make sure everyone gets up to play everyday. Eric Wedge and Derek Shelton fit this team well. There has been little sparring between players and the peace has been largely kept in the clubhouse. And unless you see the problem as the managers fault then there is no point in firing him. You are doing a useless exercise that takes attention away from the real problem.

Also, Billy Beane probably fired Howe for two reasons:

1) It was cheaper to hire someone who had no managerial experience and who was getting their first shot in the majors.

2) Someone needed to take the blame.

I would seriously hope that our front office is above assigning the blame to someone who, as you said, doesn’t have a discernible impact on teams when compared to their peers.

I cannot fathom why you believe it is important to harp on the manager/hitting coach. The players need to produce. That it the bottom line.

by gahnki on Jun 4, 2008 5:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Am I harping? I don’t care about either of them. At all. I think that’s the opposite of harping.

I seriously doubt hitting coaches appraoches are all that different. But whatever.

All I’m saying is that managers and hitting coaches get fired because of players’ performances, not because of anything they’ve done (barring lying about service in Vietnam). And it’s about time to some of ours to get fired, essentially just for the heck of it.

by afh4 on Jun 6, 2008 2:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yikes, do we really want Skinner pushing the buttons? Or will it actually be a boon since he won’t be waving guys home from 3rd?

by talonk on Jun 2, 2008 6:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He was a really, really, really good minor league manager.

by afh4 on Jun 3, 2008 1:35 AM EDT to parent up   1 recs

I don’t see Wedge out, but I wonder if the whole Marte thing is a point of contention. Pluto makes it pretty clear that Shapiro gave into Wedge on Phillips. Wedge’s stubborn refusal to play Marte looks like a passive-aggressive respone to Shap standing his ground this time. Maybe all is not so blissful between these two.

by SuddenSam on Jun 2, 2008 7:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

HIRE EDDIE MURRAY?

by MikeCP on Jun 2, 2008 5:56 PM EDT   0 recs

I say under. It’s going to happen.

But hey, looking at the last 30 days, we did outscore the Angels. So, hooray.

Although the Rangers scored many many more runs than we did. As in, more than 2.5 runs more per game.

by dgcambridge on Jun 2, 2008 6:20 PM EDT   0 recs

Our offense has sucked beyond words for a couple of years now. I guess at some point we ought to be results-oriented in whom we employ. That’s not to lay very much blame at Shelton’s feet; who the heck knows, really, but I’m just sayin. Results.

by tabler84 on Jun 2, 2008 7:58 PM EDT   0 recs

Oh, and regarding the main point: Over, of course.

by tabler84 on Jun 2, 2008 7:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Over. By a season.

by NickFantana on Jun 3, 2008 12:12 PM EDT   0 recs

Maybe I should re-post this everyday. It seemed to have a positive impact on the Tribe bats…

by APV on Jun 3, 2008 1:37 PM EDT   0 recs

i think the bigger problem is our bullpen. i’m serious. but then again i think we were just spoiled last year.

by Gradyforpresident on Jun 3, 2008 2:04 PM EDT   0 recs

We’ll realize this once the offense starts up.

by odradek on Jun 3, 2008 4:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I would say, we are now realizing this as the rotation regresses back to “very good” and “half on the DL.”

by Jay on Jun 3, 2008 6:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Considering that the pen has been in the tank, and the offense underwater, maybe one or both (one can dream) will pick up as the starting rotation returns to earth.

by odradek on Jun 3, 2008 7:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

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