So if we're not contending. . .
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jun 26, 2008 11:24 AM EDT
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who are you rooting for? Anyone?
I'm not trying to write the Tribe off prematurely or anything, but this season is quickly going the way of 2006--our bullpen may be as bad as it was then, and our offense is certainly much worse. If we do decide to punt, this season will become interesting for different reasons than we'd hoped (the C.C. Sabathia sweepstakes), and if you want to watch meaningful August and September baseball, you'll be watching another team play it.
My question to LGT is this: will you take a rooting interest in another team, or do you already have one? Of course, any support I give other MLB teams will be subordinate and a distant second to my love of the Tribe, but if your team is going to be as soul-crushingly boring and disappointing as the Indians have become this year, I don't see what's wrong with having a bit of an open relationship with it.
My picks:
1.) Atlanta. This is going to be my new home starting in August, and I'm going to be residing there for at least three years (and probably more). Outside of a handful of games in 1995, I've always found a lot to like about the Braves--I've always admired the way they run their organization and fuel their success through homegrown talent, and their rosters are always filled with been toolsy, athletic types who are fun to watch. Bobby Cox is great, Chipper Jones' flirting with a .400 BA is awesome, Brian McCann has been a beast for my fantasy team, and Jeff Francouer just seems cool as hell (and I have to make the customary mention of his cannon throwing arm). Also, one of their TV announcers--I think their play-by-play guy--did a chat on Baseball Prospectus not long ago, which is awesome. Plus, they're a National League team, and I can appreciate the symmetry of rooting for both an AL and an NL team with a vaguely racist name. They're 4.5 games back in a bunched-up NL East, so they're right in the mix of things, and most importantly, their fans aren't obnoxious, which is huge (this is keeping me from liking the Cubs). So, yay Braves!
2.) Tampa Bay. Duh. This team is young, full of awesome talent, has a smart, stats-friendly FO, and most importantly, is making life absolutely miserable for the established powers of the AL East. They start fistfights with the Red Sox and Yankees, Kazmir and Shields are sick, Joel Maddon is weird and a great manager, BJ Upton is great and really underrated, and the Troy Percival comeback is a really cool story. If they make the playoffs, that means either Boston or New York doesn't, so ipso facto, I like this team.
3.) Oakland A's. Basically, I want to see Billy Beane get a ring, so guys like Bill Plaschke can shove it.
What do you all think? Anything?
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I need a copy editor, apparently. Meant to say, re: Braves: “Their rosters are always filled with toolsy, athletic types”.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jun 26, 2008 11:30 AM EDT reply actions
I agree with Tampa Bay. I joked with my buddy that I was giving up on the Indians and buying an Evan Longoria jersey, but that’s looking more and more true as the losses pile up. I would also like to see the A’s win it all for the exact reason you mentioned, but I don’t see that happening this year.
As long as it’s an AL team (and not the Yankees, Red Sox, or anyone from the Central) that would be fine with me.
I’m not rooting for another team. I don’t have the energy to care for another team besides Cleveland.
Here’s what I’m rooting for:
1) A return to health and form for Carmona. Carmona is huge for the Tribe.
2) An eventual return of Asdrubal to Cleveland with much improved hitting success (and hopefully more time at SS).
3) A resurgence of power from Gutierrez. I love watching Gutz play. I would like him to turn into a solid, if not cornerstone, OFer.
4) Two weeks of Travis Hafner annihilating AAA pitching, followed by a callup to Cleveland with renewed (if not completely dominating) hitting success
5) A trade of CC that gives us a few more guys to be excited about on the cusp of the majors (disclaimer: CC has been my favorite Indian since his rookie season. I own a Sabathia jersey. CC is clearly our best pitcher and probably one of the top 3 pitchers in the AL. We’re a worse team without CC. We should still trade him if the market for him is good, which all signs suggest it will be.)
6) No more significant injuries
7) 2nd-half devastation from Weglarz and Mills
8) No setbacks in Westbrook’s recovery
Sorry, but 8 years of CC is better than 3 each of Eck or Perry. Perry’s numbers were better overall than CC’s, but CCs numbers are better than Ecks and he’s been here for 8 years, which in my eyes gives him the nod over both of those guys.
The Lord and Eck are both in the HoF. CC’s got a shot, but he’s no shoo-in.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
too late. i think at this point it’s best to just place adam miller out of your mind until next season
Much too optomistic. Just fergetaboutit altogether.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
No! BOOOOOO CUBS!!!
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 26, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, what?
Get the monkey off their back so they can shut up about it?
Worked great for the Red Sux.
by still ill on Jun 26, 2008 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
My perspective is, if I were sharing a foxhole with someone, I’d be thrilled if they were a baseball fan, so we could shoot the breeze. And I see all baseball fans as comrades. So, I sympathize with Cubs fans because they have a decent shot at making noise this year and they’ve waited so long. It’s not like I’m rooting for an AL club.
You do realize that if the cubs do win the Series, the Tribe then becomes the team with the longest active drought in mlb? That alone should make you root for the Cubbies to lose.
Unless that also means that we’re bound to break ours soon.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 26, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
why not let them have a good year? then it’ll finally be our turn. right? isn’t that how this works all the teams with curses worse than ours get to win first? so yeah, go cubs
by tribetimenow24 on Jun 29, 2008 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, go Browns….and Buckeyes! I’m already looking forward to Sept. 13. OSU v. USC. 8 pm on ABC. Winner has the inside track to the National Championship Game.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 26, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing against you personally, but I can’t stand the Buckeyes because of the fan base… and comments like the one you made about having the inside track to the National Championship game after one victory, regardless of who it’s against. Maybe you have the inside track against the Trojans, but there’s about 12 other teams who will have something to say about that even before the convoluted and biased BCS system decides who plays for the title.
OT rant over.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
That comment about having the inside track to the championship game is not from me, but from about every college football writer who’s been talking about the upcoming season. They both will be preseason top 5, so whoever wins that game will probably be in the top 2 and definately make the championship game if they go undefeated. I’m not saying that will happen, but that’s the way the college system works.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 26, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I am a Buckeye alum, but, I have to tell you, the writers love to hype the upcoming season. A couple of mediocre showings against lesser teams and we will fall out of the top 2. Early season victories are heavily discounted in December when the polls count.
Not victories against USC. This ain’t Kent St. or Cincinnati we’re talking about. I was at the OSU-Texas game a few years ago, and the atmosphere there was unbelieveable (second only to the Michigan game in ‘02 and ‘06). Texas’ victory that year propelled them to the NC Game just like OSU’s victory in Texas the following year moved them to #1 and propelled them to the NC Game.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 26, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, well, when I was going to OSU and one year they beat Northwestern by “only” three TDs the pissing and moaning in the Dispatch was unbearable. To think that the vaunted Buckeyes couldn’t beat them by at least 35 points was outlandish!
Buckeye fans are the Yankee fans of the Big Ten. Sheesh they can’t even count in that conference.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Wait a minute…..comparing me to a Yankees fan is a low blow!
Every Indians fan I know is also a Buckeyes fan, so I’m not sure about your comment.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 26, 2008 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I do know many Indians fans, but they’re all native northern Ohioans like myself who are also Buckeyes and Browns fans (except for my one idiot friend whose an Indians and Steelers fan).
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 26, 2008 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll do another of my many old man routines for you. Waaaaaay back when – like in the ‘70s – OSU football rarely made the front sports page of either paper. That’s back when Cleveland had two major newspapers for you whippersnappers. Concern for OSU sports in general was at most tepid for most Clevelanders. If you’ll look back to that era you’ll note that a surprisingly high percentage of star Cleveland football players went to other universities, like Notre Dame, Michigan and Northwestern. In my age group that would include Dan Dierdorf and Jim Mandich to Michigan, the Golic brothers to ND and Jack Rudney to Northwestern.
Clevelanders following OSU football is a 90s and 00s phenomenon.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
And with all the Glenville players going to OSU under Tressel, I’m sure that’s increased the following in Cleveland.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 26, 2008 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know, my Dad has been a diehard Buckeyes fan more or less his whole life from what I can tell, and since he was born in 1942, that pretty much covers not only the 70’s but all of the 60’s and most of the 50’s in terms of being an active fan.
Now, maybe that was just him, I don’t know. It also could be that OSU is less important to someone in downtown Cleveland than in the outlying areas — Dad was in Akron. But the local Indians fan base is a lot bigger than just Cleveland proper.
Clevelanders following OSU football is a 90s and 00s phenomenon.
I disagree. Born and raised in Cleveland and knew lots of OSU football fans (myself included.) A strong memory I have is how many adults were completely saddened when Woody Hayes died. I was in high school – he was a bit before my time, but it made a strong impression on me.
by ganatz on Jun 27, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
My 85 year old Uncle Tony would vehemently disagree, Chuck.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 27, 2008 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m a Tribe Lifer, but a relative newcomer to OSU fandom.
I only began to root for the Buckeyes when they hired Jim Tressel. I was not a fan of John Cooper’s, and when they went 6-6 in one of his final seasons, I was pretty pleased. My father is a Youngstown alum, so I’ve seen plenty of Tressel teams that have played with honor and class and still won big many times. I sense that’s the type of teams he’s trying to build at OSU now.
Can’t say the same about all the Buckeye fans, however. Some are unbearable (much like Yankees or Sawx fans), but most are just rooting for the hometown team because that’s as close to pro football as they’re going to get in C-BUS. For years (prior to the Jackets) they were the only viable sports ‘franchise’ in town.
I did a Google image search for "Andy Marte." It turned up zero results.
PAC Ten – where they can at least count. USC, Stanford, Cal Berkley – all superior schools. The Big Ten has Northwestern and Michigan and Wisconsin pretty decent schools, the rest is pretty meh academically.
OSU has only one school that’s the best in it’s own state. And that’s only because no other university in Ohio has a vet school. Other than that, every department/college at OSU is inferior to at least one other school in Ohio. All and all a pretty mediocre university.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
I’m not sure I’d put USC on a list of academically superior schools. Pretty notorious party school, actually, as is Wisconsin, at the undergraduate level anyway. UCLA has some really strong programs, so the argument for the PAC Ten could still be made.
Cal Berkely > Stanford > Michigan > UCLA > NW > Wisconsin > PSU >> OSU
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
your individual skills and commitment to education>>>chuck’s vague inequality assessment.
group identity = dumb identity.
and it’s NU, not NW.
Yeah, sorry about the incorrect initials for Northwestern – shouldda known that.
And I talkin’ about how strong the competition is. Look, the smartest son of a bitch I – or any of my colleagues – ever met went to OSU. But gettin’ an "A" in OChem at OSU and gettin’ an "A" in OChem at Berkley are two different things
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Well, depends on the grading. Some schools with elite reputations hardly ever issue grades lower than B- on the assumption that all their students are smart. That’s why Bush and Kerry’s bad records in Ivy League schools are so impressive—it’s hard to do that!! But, if they grade organic chem on a curve in those two schools, you may be right. Or, it might be that the better students at both schools self-select into the toughest courses/majors, so the populations in the two courses may be more similar than you think. Sounds like the kind of statistical measurement problem sabermetrics people love to argue about!
Just wanted to comment that Illinois is also a fine institution, approximately on par with Wisconsin in education and only slightly behind in public drunkeness.
“Cal Berkely > Stanford > Michigan > UCLA > NW > Wisconsin > PSU >> OSU”
That’s a consumerist point of view. A proper education would have shaken your faith in the institutional myth. I would love to hear you explain the extent to which anyone of these schools, taken as a whole, is measurably superior to another in any way apart from your knowledge of “Dude X” who got into one and not another.
I, of course, think your list is garbage, but your idea is unfortunately a common one. I’m not oblivious to it. I’ll have to live with the fact that I will prejudged throughout my life according to the school(s) I attended, and those pre-opinions aren’t completely unfair either. It’s not like I ever had the option to turn down a Yale or Harvard for generic state-school just to prove a point.
Even though I was a total dolt at 18, I understood very well what would be imagined about my education down the road as a result of not achieving at a level of the upper-tier high school graduates. I had scarcely learned a thing, and yet I already knew all about this imaginary list.
That’s why I regard your list as juvenile. My college years have come and gone, and I’ve met a lot of people from different schools, and I’ve disposed of “the list”.
I accept that it might be possible to fairly compare departments of a high degree of specialty-if two departments are of the same species-and resolve a hierarchy. This would have to be accepted knowledge by insiders, of course, and this information would really only be relevant to insiders.
Unless you’re a “smart shopper”, these second-hand rankings serve no purpose and say nothing.
If your rankings are meant to apply to undergraduate schools, remind yourself that their admissions staffs aren’t exactly Harvard-educated geniuses1, and of the frailty of the evaluation mechanisms (and the attentions of 18 year olds) in the first place.
1as everybody knows, admission into Harvard is not necessarily related to genius.
by jhon on Jun 28, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Some interesting points.
I would submit to you that given the extravagant expense of a college education, the idea that universities should be judged primarily on anything but a consumerist basis is a lot of high-minded elitist nonsense. The fact that the quality of a university’s brand isn’t living up to the quality of its academics just means the institution really badly needs to get its act together in the PR and marketing departments, because they’re cheating their paying customers — excuse me, “students” — out of five-or-six-figure’s worth of ROI.
I mean, seriously … you don’t really think this isn’t all about money, do you?
As you suggest, we are all judged somewhat by the school we attended, i.e., got into, and since the leading U.S. institutions have need-blind admissions and need-based scholarships, most of us go to the best school we can get into. I know plenty of Ivy Leaguers, and most of them didn’t learn a hell of a lot in class, yet that’s how we’re all going to be judged — it is what it is.
For those who actually select an educational experience — of any type or length — for the purpose of learning about, preparing for and/or aspiring to something or other, I really salute them. But most folks go to college because that’s just what everyone tells them they’re supposed to do, and it’s not like we can think of any better ideas at 17 — particularly for those who’ve already discovered beer. And for those people, whatever time and money — theirs and the taxpayers — gets expended on college is returned only in the form of warehousing and anesthetizing the post-pubescent for a few years, the receipt of a B.A. or B.S. credential (pun intended) to put on a résumé, and the quality of the institutional brand that is awarding that credential. And that’s pretty much it.
So if the general population really does think that …
Cal Berkely > Stanford > Michigan > UCLA > NW > Wisconsin > PSU >> OSU
... then for the vast majority of college graduates, that perception is the reality.
It absolutely is about money. Money is a source of anxiety for me, as it is for everyone else. Money is most definitely at stake here.
So while “gettin’ an “A” in OChem at OSU and gettin’ an “A” in OChem at Berkley” are not two different things, the diplomas those two schools award are very different. And the difference is money and access. Access to the Bay Area, vs. access to places mostly in Ohio.
I am grateful to have been warehoused, and it’s a good thing for my community that I passed the time in a remote, insular place that no sober person watched.
It seems that people like Chuck are correlating that “list” to actual standards of education or intelligence, and not seeing for what it is – branding. It’s fair to accept that list as a brand, but not as a metric for the education you received.
And since when do you “receive” and education? Learning is not passive.
To the extent that it is more difficult to get into Northwestern or Stanford, I would say the level of competition for grades is tougher when you get there. It is up for debate as to whether this translates into on the job excellence. Perhaps these same exceptional students would have excelled on the job regardless of where they had gone to school.
Not perhaps. Definitely. There is no statistical difference for people with the same test scores, different school prestige, and 20 year income. And I have the study to prove it. Two Harvard economists did it with the HS class of 1976 – they found that being able to get in to a good school was all that mattered, not actually going there.
That’s an interesting finding, but I would suspect that — not unlike McCracken’s initial study about BABIP — those broad, sweeping conclusions don’t hold as well once you start segmenting the population by certain key attributes.
I have no doubts about this. If one graduates from a prestigious school AND has or develops the right connections, equivalent performance on the job is more likely to lead to an inside track. The cachet one acquires from a prestigious school means only as much as the people impressed by the school. However, the inability to perform equivalently or at a higher level, will, in time, take its toll.
You’re close – but no cigar.
You purchase a digolma. You acquire an education. Two different things. I thinke we’ll all agree that an MD is worth a lot of money. Try this: try getting into Wright States Med School with a 3.0 from Harvard. No try the same trick with a 3.75 from Kent State. See which one is easier.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
I don’t have a horse in this fight, but saying that OSU is a mediocre university because it doesn’t have one school within it that is the best in the state is faulty logic.
Does having the (let’s assume) best player in baseball in Alex Rodriguez make the Yankees a better team than the Red Sox? If Grady Sizemore is better than any single player on the Twins, does that make the Indians a better team?
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
OSU does look pretty weak among major universities. Overall it’s probably an above-average place to get an undergrad education, but that’s not really saying much considering its resources. It has some very good grad schools — the MBA program sometimes sneaks into the Top 10 from what I remember.
I don’t really know how various OSU programs rank in the nation, but I do know that the past few years they’re really been trying to raise the standards for incoming freshman. It used to be that anyone could get in to OSU; not anymore. It was one of Holbrook’s (the previous president) big plans, and it has been continuing under Gee. And everything I’ve heard about Gee is that he’s a great president; he was at OSU about a decade ago before leaving for Vanderbuilt, but he’s come back to finish his career at OSU.
I do know that OSU Medical Center is a pretty good hospital (not the Cleveland Clinic, of course). I spent about two months there and I can speak from experience that their orthopedic surgeons are fantastic. Also, Dodd Hall, their physical therapy rehab center, is in the top 10 nationally. I spent some time there earlier this year and it is a fantastic place (saw Archie Griffin when I was there, also). I went there not being able to stand up without assistance, and left five weeks later being able to walk pretty good with a cane.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 27, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Relax, we are talking about football players here. If these guys graduate at all, they become car salemen.
Uhh, I’m relaxed, thanks. But I’m responding to the posters above, who were not talking about football players.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 27, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Glad to hear that your outcome at OSU was so successful. However, the OSU Med Center is not – by any stretch – the best in Ohio.
And the Cleveland Clinic is not the competition – CWRU is. And they are head and shoulders above OSU both in academic and clinical education. I’ve done rotations through CWRU, Cleveland Clinic and OSU and can tell you that the staff and facilities at CWRU are superior to either at OSU.
A good measure of a teaching hospital’s house staff is where it ranks in the resident match program. Year after year CWRU attracts residents with higher test scores than OSU.
BTW Brad your surgeon wasn’t Dave Unverferth was he?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Not really disagreeing, but serious question … in what decade did you do those rotations? Facilities can change, you know.
Quite awhile ago. However, a coupla of my good friends are attendings at OSU – talk to two of ‘em today about this very issue – and I’ve got friends at CC and CWRU as well. Plus another good friend is head of Medical Education at Barnes. He keeps on top of this kinda stuff. BTW, he’s in violent agreement with me on the OSU/CWRU thing – and he’s an OSU alum!
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
I’ve seen almost every orthopedic surgeon OSU has - 11 surgeries will do that - but I never heard of the guy you mentioned.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 27, 2008 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, and I’ll defer to you on the OSU Med Center rankings. But, I do know that their undergraduate students have improved quite a bit from what they used to be. Many more incoming freshman were top 10% of their class and have higher ACT/SAT scores. I haven’t looked up any rankings, but I do remember reading these statistics in the paper. So I think OSU, while maybe not being the best university in the state, certainly provides a better-than-average education. And, because of their size, you can major in pretty much anything.
Also, as my name suggests, I’m an OSU alum. But I only went to graduate school there; I got my bachelor’s at Youngstown State (Yes, I basically just followed Tressel).
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 27, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that’s what I meant. OSU’s incoming classes now are better/smarter than their previous classes.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 27, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
But how much better, and how good/smart were those previous classes?
You’re not really telling us anything. I knew a few smart people who went to OSU, but on the whole, the people I met there were dolts.
OSU does not present as an academically inclined environment, you have to give me that much.
I actually meant to be commenting less on the quality of OSU — as if I really know — and more on the lack of any actual information that Brad was giving us — saying in effect: I’ve heard that it got a little better by this certain metric, but I don’t know how much better, and I don’t know how good/bad it was before or is now.
Hey, I heard the Indians are worth more than they were before.
I don’t think Nortwestern is nervous yet (on the academic side).
by ganatz on Jun 27, 2008 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to quote some actual figures:
Ohio State is again ranked 19th among the nation’s top 50 public universities, according to the U.S. News & World Report’s 2008 edition of America’s Best Colleges released today. And Ohio State is rated 10th among national public institutions in the Washington Monthly College Guide, released yesterday.
U.S. News rankings, which are based on 2006 statistics, note improvement in several categories. The percentage of freshmen in the top 10% of their high school class increased from 39% to 43%; and freshman retention improved from 89 to 90%.
In addition to the overall institutional rankings, the magazine also annually ranks undergraduate programs in business and engineering. Among both private and public universities, Ohio State’s Fisher College of Business was rated 12th in the nation, up from 18 last year. Among public universities, the program is rated 7th.Among Ph.D.-granting private and public colleges, Ohio State’s College of Engineering is rated 25th overall and 14th among publics in the category.
All those rankings seem pretty good. You can certainly say that OSU ranks among the top 20 public universities in the nation, and the best in the state.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 27, 2008 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but Ohio is, what, the 6th largest state? And OSU is both the traditional academic institution and the land-grant school, unlike in some states where these functions are split (Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, Texas).
It is, after all, THE Ohio State University. So the “We’re Number 19” chant doesn’t inspire.
I also don’t even care about this discussion.
i’m just gonna go ahead and say those rankings mean really little regarding the quality of the education.
by Gradyforpresident on Jun 27, 2008 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve always felt that the quality of education a person receives depends 90% on how much effort is expended and 10% on which institution one attends.
by elsandito on Jun 27, 2008 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is even understated. You can get a good education at the public library, or on the internet. And colleges have an incentive to collect your tuition and then turn you into an alum (i.e., donor). So there isn’t much in the way of standards.
There are rigorous programs, of course, but universities also maintain communication departments and the like as safety nets. The degree is a given as long as the checks clear, but the education itself is an elective.
On a personal level (to keep this discussion going much farther than it should), I went to graduate school in mathematics, so obviously everyone there was pretty smart. I realized that wasn’t for me so I switched to math education, and of course the level of students there dropped down a notch—let me just say that I felt dumb in math classes and smart in math education classes, so take from that what you will.
My two buddies there (who came from YSU with me) were getting their doctorates in optometry and chemistry, so all their friends I hung out with were pretty smart, also. Obviously that doesn’t represent the campus as a whole. Like I said, I didn’t go to undergraduate there so I can’t really comment on that.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 27, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me first say, those who are going into math education are truly doing God’s work, whether they’re geniuses or not, and those who are going into mathematics are doing work that even God would find uninteresting.
I’m not someone who’d be likely do well in any grad school program of any kind, or even get into one, so I’m probably the last person to be judging any of this. I do appreciate your injecting some “real data” though.
Yes, I suppose it does take a certain level of crazy to want to teach math to teenagers, most of whom are thinking “why do I need to know this?” But I love it. Especially teaching Calculus; if I could teach Calculus all day long I’d be ecstatic.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 27, 2008 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Cap’n, I also live in Atlanta. We should meet up for a game once you get settled. Also, just to warn you, they play the clip of the 1995 World Series at the beginning of every home game. I have adopted the Braves as my NL team and I don’t feel dirty about it. I rationalize it by saying that they NEVER actually play each other, and when they do, you just root for the Tribe.
I was also at the interleague game when Firecan Davis hit a moonshot to dead center field (407 well over the fence)
Sounds good man. I won’t know a soul there, so I’ll definitely be up for going to a game. How is Turner Field? Is MARTA as bad as I’ve heard?
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jun 26, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Just want to jump in here and say that I moved to Atlanta in May and would also be up for a game. Gte, I didn’t know you were an Atlantan.
I hope the Red Sox get to the World Series.
Go TERRORISTS!
LeCavs!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
The joke is that a team you hate goes to the championship and then a terrorist attack happens.
I think.
they’d be about as likely to be terrorist suspects as the people we’ve got there anyway, i suppose
by Gradyforpresident on Jun 27, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
SBN is telling me to vote for John McCain. I think.
Also speaking of SBN ads, why do I get almost exclusively ads for Blue Jays broadcasts?
by supermarioelia on Jun 27, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t get me started on the monarchy. The amount of money we blow every year on our stupid governor general and her stupid diplomatic trips…it’s unbelievable.
FIRE BRITAIN
by supermarioelia on Jun 27, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
This whole concept of a “second team” is so wrong on so many levels. As far as I’m concerned there are no other baseball teams besides the Indians. All the other clubs are either regular season opponents (AL) or potential World Series opponents (NL).
At this point I think I’m going to revert to my ‘60 through ‘93 approach to watching the Tribe and follow individual players and revel in small victories. We took 2 outta 3 from the BoSox – hurray! Cliff Lee is pitcher of the month – let’s celebrate. That and hope for a coupla wunderkinds from the Carolina League to come up and wow us in March.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
And nearly fought the Dragon of Angnor, and nearly stood up to the vicious Chicken of Bristol, and personally wet ourselves at the Battle of Badon Hill!
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Jun 26, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
So many levels? How many levels can there be?
At times like this I don’t mind admitting I’m openly mercenary about my rooting interests. This current Indians team is simply not worth my time or attention—it hurts me to say that because I, like everybody else here, has watched these guys all the way through the system for years, but right now the defeated, losing attitude they have is just driving me away. So why punish myself by continuing to watch if I’m not enjoying it?
So if I want to actually enjoy the rest of the baseball season, I’m going to find another team or teams to root for—teams that I don’t already hate, have likable players and are fun to watch, and have a chance of making the postseason. This year that’d be the Dodgers, Rays, Cubs, Brewers, and I guess D-backs. I’ve always liked the Dodgers and I live in Cubs territory, and the Rays are this year’s great cinderalla story, so there you go.
During the dark period from 1960 to 1993 Indians fans had to accept a defeated, losing attitude, or they couldn’t be fans of their hometown team. You learn to adjust, to make concessions to the inevitability of failure. There were plenty of other things to divert a baseball fan: midges, Oscar Gamble’s hair, Miguel Dilone, Mike Hargrove’s batting ritual. You’re not going to turn your back on your team just because it has a losing record, and a defeated, losing attitude?
Maybe I’m not going to “turn my back” completely, but where are the characters, where’s the fun with this team? There are interesting and fun losing teams and boring and depressing ones, and this one is clearly the latter.
Look, I make fun of Cubs fans all the time for being rubes: no matter how crappy the team is they always show up in droves and buy the pre-scalped tickets that the tribune company sells them. So why would the tribune co. ever bother to put a winning product on the field?
I’ll focus on the kids in the minors and check in and see how the big league club is doing, but once my favorite player - CC - is traded away, I don’t really see a compelling reason to watch this robotic and uninspiring team go through the motions on its way to 75 wins. I mean, that has to be saying something, since obviously I’m hanging out on this site even now and I’m as passionate an Indians fan as you’ll find. But “passion” can go both ways, and right now I’m just passionately done with Wedge and the boys.
You’ll come around. I hear you about robotic and uninspiring (and uninspired), and I hear you about the loss of CC, but I’ll keep watching for signs of mutiny, for signs Wedge has lost his team, for signs of life. It’s Cleveland. Stick around and something weird will happen.
Indians fans will never compare to Cubs fans, who are as fatuous as they come. Indians fans are bitter, but strong.
Dodgers.
It was fun to watch them beat the White Sox last night. Dodgers have a nice roster full of young talent. I’m also rooting for the Cubs and Rays.
Sad to say, last night’s pathetic loss to Zito was really the final nail in the coffin for this Indians season for me. I can’t even watch them now, they’re just affectless and boring and bad it’s not even worthwhile. Not an interesting baseball team in any way, shape, or form right now.
Wake me up when CC gets traded.
I’m going to have to agree with with mauichuck on this one. How can you root for another team? That’s terrible.
I just start to root against things at this point. I would like to see bad thing happen to 1) Boston, 2) New York and 3) Ozzie Guillen.
by millionairesrow on Jun 26, 2008 2:29 PM EDT reply actions
I root for the Indians.
If we’re not winning, I root for big-picture steps forward. Good trades, good progress from players who are maturing or coming back from injury. I could care less who the player of the month is and don’t really get worked up over All-Star appearances or even MVP’s. I would be kind of psyched if Westbrook ever won a Gold Glove, but that’s not likely.
As a completely separate matter, I casually root for:
1. Whoever is playing the Yankees.
2. The Phillies.
3. Good baseball in general — great battles between pitchers and batters, defenders and baserunners, managers and common sense.
4. Great players getting an opportunity to do great things — like seeing Bonds in the World Series a few years back. Had we not been playing them, I’d have loved watching Beckett mow down all comers in the playoffs.
5. Whoever is playing the Red Sox, Mets, White Sox and Twins.
6. Whoever is playing the Tigers, Dodgers, Cubs and Mariners — basically anyone who’s contending purely by overspending.
i thought he was just AL-rookie of the month. or AL-rookie-pitcher of the month. or AL-rookie-pitcher-whose initials are AL of the month.
by Brick. on Jun 26, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’d like to think that everyone here who is “rooting” for another team is “casually” rooting. Everyone here is more than likely an Indians fan, first and foremost.
In my case, as I mentioned above, I’m rooting for the Rays (although it’s more appropriate to say that I’m rooting for a 10,000% return on my investment or for a team that hates the Red Sox, just like me).
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
Yeah, the Rays are a fun club … I’ve been rooting for them for a few years now just to get out of the basement.
I casually root for the Pirates because I lived in Pittsburgh for 6 years, and they deserve better in that city, so hopefully Neal can put that together for them. I also lived in LA for 2 years, so I don’t mind seeing the Dodgers do well on occasion since they’ve been pretty terrible that past few decades.
I did a Google image search for "Andy Marte." It turned up zero results.
My wife has family in Pittsburgh. I’ve been there many times. I would agree with you about Pittsburgh deserving better than the Pirates if they didn’t have the Steelers, who are generally the luckiest franchise in all of professional sports. The bad karma of the Pirates pretty much balances it out, especially now that the Pens are winning again. Steelers fans are bloodthirsty, are not satisfied with winning if they didn’t kick your teeth out in the process.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Jun 27, 2008 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
If they Rays get out of the basement, they’ll be no different from the Marlins — a team with hardly any fans, and no real history, that’s built on the fat of revenue sharing and ten years of elite draft picks.
How is an an expansion team supposed to make a name for itself in baseball? Besides, I think the Rays’ approach has been very different from the Marlins “buy big -> blow up -> buy big -> blow up -> rebuild” lifespan.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 27, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
If we’re not winning, I root for big-picture steps forward. Good trades, good progress from players who are maturing or coming back from injury.
I’m not quite sure this is what you meant, but I have a small interest in the Mariners. It was so so wrong for so long that I became fascinated with the moves ownership and Bavasi made. Now that it’s (maybe) over I’m even more interested to see if a new GM will go about rebuilding this team properly.
Also, I f-—- love Felix. I know the clock has been ticking on potential=results for years now, but he’s still 2 years younger than Lincecum. On those nights when he’s on (like his first two starts of 2007) he is one of the best reasons to watch a baseball game that doesn’t feature the Indians.
I could be mistaken as a fan for several teams when really I’m just a big fan of particular players. I love to watch David Wright play. And there are a lot of guys on the Rays that I stop to watch when they’re on.
Oh, and if CC goes to the NL, I’ll wish well to that team.
Unless it’s the Cubs. Or the Reds. Eh, and I’m not crazy about the Mets.
Steel Nick
i don’t think people appreciate the genius behind the way shapiro orchestrates these off years as a chance to trim fat and re-tool, while sneaking some talent away from other teams for guys he’s going to loose anyway. it’s the market inefficiency that’s so crazy no one believes someone would actually try it so they spend months trying to figure out what went wrong when it was all part of the master plan.
So, really, the injuries and the bad bullpen are some sort of voodoo mind control thing, and Shapiro has Travis Hafner, Victor Martinez and Brodzoski (The Close) dolls into which he sticks pins into in order to create a snowballing injury effect?
Genius.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Jun 26, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
none of those were real injuries. fausto, too. they’re just roster and arm-fatigue manipulation. got to see shoppach for a bit – bam, elbow surgery for vic. got to rest fausto after last year’s workload – bam, his hip tickles. let marte hang out most of the season, then when we’re out of it actually play him. not a coincidence the last time he saw regular time was at the end of 06. it all has explanations.
So you’re in the disorganization stage in Andrew’s chart?
by NickFantana on Jun 26, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe Michael Lewis will write a book about Shapiro’s approach and call it “OddYearsBall.” It would start a whole new wave of teams trying to win every other year, and lead to Joe Morgan compaining on every Sunday night broadcast about the book Mark Shapiro wrote. We’d have a big fight between teams that try to contend for a few years in a row then rebuild (the old way) versus teams that try to contended for a year then rebuild for a year (the new way). Hundreds of blogs devoted to the new way would be started by nerds writing from their mother’s basement, and newspaper writers like Plashcke would churn out articles complaining that Shapiro’s way was ruining baseball and these teams should stop trying to compete only in odd (or even) years because that takes all the fun out of the game.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 26, 2008 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
He should probably just write another book about Beane, I mean taking advantage of restocking while having a down year is pretty cool, but selling everyone on begining a rebuilding process that may take years before your in contention and then actually be one of the best teams in the AL in that first year is pretty amazing. Heck he traded away Haren and has immediately gotten back at least an equal return….immediately.
Yeah, it is amazing. I’m jealous. He just refuses to do the expensive long term deal and has no qualms about trading talent at peak value to get max return. Interesting that the one, maybe sentimental exception was when he signed Chavez to the long term deal, and you have to believe the return on that has just further convinced him that player turnover is the name of the game.
Billy Beane’s a smart guy and has built nice teams in Oakland consistently. But, it should be said, he hasn’t won a World Series. I sometimes get the impression people think that if Billy Beane were the Indians’ GM we’d win the World Series every other year. Given what he’s been able to do in Oakland, I’m not really persuaded that he’d have more success than Shapiro here, although he might approach things differently and would certainly be able to build a highly competitive team here as well.
Beane has put his team in the playoffs a far higher percentage of the time than Shapiro which is all you can ask for out of a small market club. I am a huge Shapiro supporter, but he needs some more time to catch Beane at the moment
Neither one of ‘em has pulled off the miracle of loaves and fishes that Dombrowski has with the Marlins.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
The Marlins were lucky. Twice. Post-season is a crapshoot. They (and Dombrowski) have never won a division, which is a far more difficult accomplishment.
Yeah, but those division rings certainly don’t have the same luster.
I did a Google image search for "Andy Marte." It turned up zero results.
Oh, I know. But if we’re evaluating GMs, I’ll take the guy that gets his team there consistently. A GM doesn’t have much control over what happens in the post-season, regardless of what Joe Morgan thinks.
The lack of a ring for the 1995-2001 Tribe is infuriating, but takes nothing away from what Hart accomplished. Same for Sheurholtz.
And that’s based on your fundamental attribution error … “the guy” doesn’t “win” the WS, he’s just on the scene when the team he helped put together happens to be the one that wins.
What’s happened to your sense of absurdity lately? Can’t you tell when your chain’s getting yanked?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Let me be perfectly clear – no sarcasm here – I like Lee’s future better than CCs. Stick around and see if I’m right.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay
Let me be perfectly clear — no sarcasm here — you are the only guy here who can get away with posting crap like that without backing it up at all.
by Jay on Jun 28, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’ve always been an Astors fan for my #2 team. I picked them up after I moved to LA and everyone around me was a fairweather Dodgers fan. I loved the Astros in the 80s and still root for them today (obviously not like I do the Tribe).
But if I had to pick another team, it probably would be the Brewers or Rays (I’d love to see them beat the Yanks and Red Sox).
Cubs. I mean, being a Cleveland fan, I’m basically a masochist anyway. Besides, Wrigley field is a wonderful celebration of the female form.
To be clear: I’m married to the Indians, but I see the Cubs a little on the side.
by ganatz on Jun 26, 2008 5:50 PM EDT reply actions
I dunno about you, but if I’m gonna cheat on my wife, I’m doing it with somebody that lacks pee troughs and unsightly steal beems.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 27, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I do, but this ‘08 team is like coming home to a toothless Roseanne every night. I’m only human, man.
by ganatz on Jun 26, 2008 9:24 PM EDT reply actions
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