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Asdrubal back. Velandia Outrighted

Castrovice:

"Asdrubal Cabrera will rejoin the Indians at a workout at Progressive Field today, as the club gets ready to head off to Seattle and the second half of the season. Jorge Velandia has been outrighted off the 40-man roster and sent to Triple-A Buffalo."

Link 2 months ago Brick_tiny Brick. Comment 186 comments 2 recs |

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with Marte playing, Fausto coming soon, and Asdrubal back in the fold, the second half will be a lot more fun to watch.

by Brick. on Jul 17, 2008 12:54 PM EDT   0 recs

Big weekend, what with Cabrera starting in Seattle on Friday and Carmona starting in Akron on Saturday.

Plus, The Dark Knight.

by FredOx on Jul 17, 2008 1:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Cool. I’m ready to get excited again, now that the season is “over”.

by Toxicadam on Jul 17, 2008 12:55 PM EDT   0 recs

It’s hard to not be happy with what Cabrera did in Buffalo. But it’d be nice if his BB:K ratio came back in line with his past performance at some point.

by APV on Jul 17, 2008 1:01 PM EDT   0 recs

If it’s over the plate, might as well swing and hit it

by Roger Dorn on Jul 17, 2008 1:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

rec’d cuz I love Drubal.

by ASP on Jul 17, 2008 1:09 PM EDT   0 recs

Maybe now they’ll finally trade that bum Peralta.

by NickFantana on Jul 17, 2008 1:19 PM EDT   0 recs

don’t make come back there.

by Brick. on Jul 17, 2008 1:20 PM EDT to parent up   1 recs

so what’s up with barfield? why did i think he’d be back by now?

by Brick. on Jul 17, 2008 1:22 PM EDT   0 recs

The club said 6-8 weeks on June 17, so you’re still looking at a couple of weeks at a minimum.

by FredOx on Jul 17, 2008 1:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m pretty sure he was on the 6-8 week track. August sometime, hopefully…

by APV on Jul 17, 2008 1:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

thanks to both. i guess that rings a bell.

for some reason that seems like a long time ago, but asdrubal getting sent down was just yesterday – which makes no sense whatsoever.

by Brick. on Jul 17, 2008 1:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

This buffalo chicken salad I made is crazy good.

by afh4 on Jul 17, 2008 1:49 PM EDT   0 recs

The chicken’s name? Jessica Simpson.

by Joe. on Jul 17, 2008 4:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

andrew you like veggie burgers?

by Gradyforpresident on Jul 17, 2008 2:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Love ‘em.

by afh4 on Jul 17, 2008 2:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

what is your favorite brand/style

by Gradyforpresident on Jul 17, 2008 2:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

IT’S PEOPLE!!!!!!!

by elsandito on Jul 17, 2008 2:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don’t mind Boca at all. I like my veggie burgers pretending to be meat as opposed to having bean sprouts hanging out of them. The whole ‘morningstar’ line of products is great-the corn dog nuggets rule, so does the soy chicken.

by afh4 on Jul 17, 2008 3:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Are you a full-time vegetarian? I’m doing it for a few weeks on a bet and was looking for some restaurants that had a good veggie burger. Any suggestions?

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Jul 17, 2008 4:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No. I’m not even close to a vegetarian. I eat a lot of meat replacement because I don’t particularly care for two-three servings a meat a day, either for the calories or the cholesterol.

I’ve never eaten a veggie burger at a restaurant. Sorry.

by afh4 on Jul 17, 2008 4:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Gotcha, no worries.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Jul 17, 2008 5:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Byrd, Blake, and Peralta to the Dodgers for LaRoche. Asdrubal to short. Sign Mark Ellis to a 2 year/$12 million deal.

A man can dream, right?

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 3:49 PM EDT   0 recs

I can’t decide if LaRoche is enough for Peralta or not. With Jhonny, we have the advantage of not having to do anything.

by fleerdon on Jul 17, 2008 3:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Peralta has value as a shortstop. But we have a better shortstop in Asdrubal. Unfortunately, we lose a lot of value by moving Jhonny to third.

It’s like the Coco trade – if someone out there is willing to value Peralta as a shortstop, it makes sense to move him.

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 4:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I am not a fan of this deal

by Roger Dorn on Jul 17, 2008 4:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think LaRoche is severely underrated. He has accumulated a full season’s worth of stats at triple-A over his last three years (age 22, 23, 24). Here are his numbers:

586 at bats
.307/.409/.541 with 33 homers and an 88/101 K/BB ratio.

Supposedly he has a solid glove as well.

I don’t get why the Dodgers are down on him but I’d love to see Shapiro swoop in there. And Colletti thinks he needs a shortstop.

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 4:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think the trade is bad being well aware of LaRoche’s value. Fixing a hole by creating another is not a good idea.

by Joe. on Jul 17, 2008 4:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Booooo. Overpaying for LaRoche.

by afh4 on Jul 17, 2008 4:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

See there’s one thing we both agree on. Our undying love of all things Jhonny.

by Joe. on Jul 17, 2008 4:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It’s got nothing to do with undying love. LaRoche is a great prospect but just a prospect. Jhonny is an established major leaguer, only 26!, with three-plus years left on a very reasonable contract.

Players who are both young and established should be — and are — the most valuable commodities in the game.

by Jay on Jul 17, 2008 4:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Expanding on the concept:

Peralta ought to be worth at least as much as Sabathia, if not more. He’s not as high-impact of a player, of course, but he’s under contract for 6-7 times longer (and the money is equally reasonable for both contracts).

Thus, we should get a top major league-ready guy plus a couple other prospects.

by Jay on Jul 17, 2008 4:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Is Peralta enough that we could think about getting a starter for him? Maybe a Huff-grade kinda guy?

by fleerdon on Jul 17, 2008 4:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Isn’t Peralta going to be the DH when Cabrera is at SS?

He has been DH only twice so far this year, but I would expect him to double that in the next week.

by palcal on Jul 17, 2008 7:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Don’t hold your breath on that.

If they make Jhonny a DH, they’re making him a very un-valuable player.

by Jay on Jul 17, 2008 11:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

LaRoche may be “just a prospect” but he’s proven his ability to demolish triple-A pitching. We would control him for six years, rather than three years of Peralta.

Peralta is an above-average offensive shortstop but below-average defensively. This is especially important given that our pitching staff will consist of (at least) three groundball machines for the forseeable future.

By capitalizing on Peralta’s value via trade, we also capitalize on Cabrera’s value by inserting him at shortstop.

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 4:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’ve made the same arguments as you re: Peralta — exactly the same.

My point is only that you are undervaluing the established young player and overvaluing the prospect — no in terms of how much you or I want him, but in terms of a fair return in the established market for players and prospects.

by Jay on Jul 17, 2008 4:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Understandable. I honestly don’t know LaRoche’s value at all – I can just assume that the Dodgers are more down on him than they should be, judging by how they are using him.

I grant that my original proposal was an exaggeration, but I think you may be valuing Peralta slightly higher than the market. I suppose it depends on what other teams think of him as a shortstop.

A .330 career OBP only has a lot of value if it comes with a capable up-the-middle glove.

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 4:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

At most position, you may be right. But at SS? No way.

Did you see the stats of All-Stars Derek Jeter and Michael Young? Peralta’s were debatably better and that’s the cream of the SS crop. So to say Jhonny is simply above average offensively is an understatement.

by Joe. on Jul 17, 2008 4:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The AL doesn’t operate in a vacuum. While Peralta may be better than most AL shortstops, in the full picture of baseball I’d stick to my assessment that he is “above average.”

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 4:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If by above average you mean only Hanley is appreciably better. then I would not disagree.

by Joe. on Jul 17, 2008 4:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Reyes is better. But none of the other guys from the NL are appreciably better choices than JP for the next 3-4 years. Rollins is too old, the other guys are bizarre-Theriot, Christian Guzman, JJ Hardy. I like Yuney and Stephen Drew but they’re decent bets to struggle to break out, just as Jhonny has.

by afh4 on Jul 17, 2008 4:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He is better, but it’s relatively close. The thing that puts him over the top is his defense and base stealing capability. His triples inflate his SLG trememendously, though.

by Joe. on Jul 17, 2008 4:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess I view 2005 as Peralta’s career year, one which he will not approach again. I worry about his ability to maintain even adequate defense at short in the future, more so than Rollins (for example) despite their respective age.

I would take Rafael Furcal, Hardy, Drew, and Escobar over Peralta (not to mention Hanley, Reyes, Young, maybe Jeter).

My point here is not to bash Peralta or say he’s worthless. I just don’t think he’s as good as Cabrera.

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 4:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What’s the point of all this? To get a third basemen? When we have two already?

And the end result is that we’re resigned to either play Jamey Carroll or Josh Barfield every day or go find a second basmen and pay him more than the sum total of Peralta and Cabrera’s contracts.

by afh4 on Jul 17, 2008 4:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I hope Andy Marte pans out. But his presence shouldn’t stop us from trying to upgrade.

LaRoche is very, very good.

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 4:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Marte was better than LaRoche in AAA, two years earlier. And he’s not a sure thing.

You know that LaRoche is good in AAA. You do not know that he is absolutely very, very good in the majors.

I know that Peralta is good to very good in the majors. And certainly not worth trading with two other useful players for Andy freakin’ LaRoche.

We got Marte for Crisp, Riske, and Bard. That’s not close to what you’re suggesting.

by afh4 on Jul 17, 2008 5:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ya left out Shoppach – that makes it considerably less one sided.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 17, 2008 5:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Shoppach, Bard, Mota, Riske, are all a wash. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear.

The point is that no one approaching Peralta’s value was in and someone not just approaching but passing LaRoche’s was.

by afh4 on Jul 17, 2008 5:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, you’re right, all three players for LaRoche is lopsided.

As to your point about Marte, we simply whiffed on him. But I don’t think that should lessen the value of a player who happens to have virtually identical credentials as Marte.

Marte was nearly can’t-miss. He does illustrate the idea that no one is truly can’t-miss. But most can’t-miss guys with those kinds of credentials indeed don’t miss.

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 5:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i’m really not to the point where we can say marte was a miss or a whiff. if you go by that, laroche is a whiff for the dodgers, too

by Brick. on Jul 17, 2008 5:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed. We can’t afford to throw our top prospects in the tank after early struggles.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 17, 2008 5:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You don’t trade good, young cheap major leaguers for players who you hope become good, young cheap major leaguers. That’s my point. We didn’t have to do it to get Marte and we wouldn’t, and shouldn’t, have to do it to get LaRoche. If we even wanted LaRoche.

by afh4 on Jul 17, 2008 5:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Reminder: Marte is 24 years old.

by gte619n on Jul 17, 2008 7:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hello Peter,

Something else to keep in mind – LaRoche had shoulder surgery last offseason (I believe) – that’s probably partly why the Dodgers aren’t quite as high on him long-term as they were a few years ago.

With all this talk about moving Peralta, realize that Peralta has probably been our best cleanup hitter this season – yes, I said cleanup hitter. Martinez wasn’t supplying the power, Hafner hasn’t been supplying much of anything since April 2007, and Garko hasn’t provided much since the very early part of this season.

While there is debate over whether Peralta can do this in the cleanup spot long-term, we still need to construct a middle-of-the-order, being that Martinez isn’t back yet and will probably need time to get back in the groove, and Hafner is a total question mark. Even if Martinez and Hafner both return to their “old” selves, you still need one more hitter to be in the middle of that order – unless someone plans on moving Sizemore down to that middle-of-the-order, who takes that spot?

LaPorta is not an option at this point, and I can’t see the Indians putting him in that position right off the bat – maybe late 2009 or probably, early 2010, but until then, you need another middle-of-the-order hitter, and guys like Gutierrez and Garko don’t look to be strong options at this point.

Francisco is doing well in the 3-spot, but I’m not sure anyone sees him filling the middle-of-the-order; Peralta, on the other hand, very well could, especially with the way he has continued to hit since being put in the cleanup spot.

Just a thought to consider and my 2 cents. :-)

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Jul 17, 2008 6:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Jhonny Peralta has been in the top 5 RC for AL SS since 2005 and he is by far the youngest member of that club, and thus, the only good bet to stay there.

by afh4 on Jul 17, 2008 4:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I like stats and junk, and normally I’d obsess over Laroche, but a couple factors make me less interested.

1) The Marte condition well covered downthread. Why should we duplicate that?

2) The Jacob Cruz experience. Look what he did at age 24 in the PCL. My frame of reference is Buffalo, so I don’t trust PCL numbers. It’s not as if Laroche has destroyed the league—he has only been very good. He’s youngish, but not that young.

I think the Dodgers might be on to something with regard to Laroche. And even with the parallel situations, I think Marte has more going for him as a prospect.

Oh, and I sure as hell wouldn’t trade Peralta for this clown.

by jhon on Jul 17, 2008 8:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

oooooooohno he didn’t!!!!

by gte619n on Jul 17, 2008 8:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

A .330 career OBP only has a lot of value if it comes with a capable up-the-middle glove.

Peter … you are deeply confused. I swear, it’s like you just discovered sabermetrics two weeks ago … “OBP is the beginning of all wisdom … but not the end of it.”

The major league average OBP … is .330. For shortstops, it’s .320. For AL shortstops, this year, it’s .310. Moreover, although OBP is the most important hitting stat, it’s not the only important hitting stat. Peralta leads all AL shortstops in home runs over the last several years. This season he has more than double the next guy. And his glove is “capable,” albeit on the weak side of that realm.

So in sum, Peralta has

• league-average OBP
• somewhat below-average glove
• well above-average power
• age that suggests very tiny decline risk and a possible breakout
• team-friendly contract

and is immensely valuable.

by Jay on Jul 17, 2008 11:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Arg!

All this nuance is really mellowing.

by fleerdon on Jul 18, 2008 12:00 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I get it, by the way—all these things make Peralta valuable, but a trade may still be in our best interests. Was the Swisher deal a reasonable comp?

by fleerdon on Jul 18, 2008 12:11 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hm … some differences, but overall, it does seem like a good comp.

by Jay on Jul 18, 2008 1:03 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Absolutely, yes. But it won’t be easy to find a partner for that dance.

by ken from alexandria on Jul 18, 2008 5:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Right and that’s my undying love. I feel too few people see how damn valuable he is. I mean the times people have mentioned getting rid of Jhonny and inserting Asdrubal in his place at SS is mindboggling and for the most part unwarranted.

by Joe. on Jul 17, 2008 4:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Jhonny is very valuable. As a shortstop. But Asdrubal is even more valuable as a shortstop. Problem is, Jhonny has far less value at third base. I’m in favor of replacing Peralta with Asdrubal, but only if we can capitalize on Peralta’s value, not minimize it by moving him to third. It makes the most sense to try to deal him, as a shortstop.

It’s like Coco Crisp. He was a mediocre left fielder, but had a lot more value as a center fielder. We didn’t need him there, obviously.

I grant that the above comparison only holds if you have an optimistic view of Asdrubal’s future.

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 4:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

But you have to have Asdrubal establish himself as a somewhat respectable hitter before you make such significant moves. The upgrade you get from Peralta’s defense to Cabrera’s is only an actual value if Cabrera can maintain an EQA somewhat similar to Peralta. We don’t have nearly enough data to arrive at that conclusion so such a move would be nothing but rash.

Let Asdrubal stay at second for a couple years and see if he hits decently. Only then does the discussion of trading Peralta to let Cabrera play at SS become somewhat rational.

by Joe. on Jul 17, 2008 4:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think we disagree on Cabrera’s offensive value. I believe that most of his struggles this year can be attributed to bad luck. If you check his THT stats you’ll notice that he was remarkably similar this year to last year. The only change was his BABIP, which was unnaturally low this season. I believe that to be mostly a fluke, and thus believe he can approximate his offensive output from last year in the future.

Which, considering how good his defense is, would be more than enough.

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 4:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You know who else has a BABIP that’s way down? Peralta. And you know who’s got power? Peralta.

by afh4 on Jul 17, 2008 4:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Peralta’s BABIP is .286, his eBABIP is .301. Not much of a difference.

Cabrera’s BABIP is .237. His eBABIP is .324. Huge difference.

Peralta does have more power. But his career SLG is .434. And that includes what I believe was a career year in 2005.

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 4:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Great! Now think what they can do together.

Straight up, I think the 2009 Marte-Peralta-Cabrera infield outhits a LaRoche-Cabrera-??? infield.

by fleerdon on Jul 17, 2008 4:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The ??? is a problem, I will admit. I doubt we can get Mark Ellis at 2 years/$12 mil as I said (although that would be nice).

But I think you may be underestimating just how good a left side of the infield with LaRoche and Cabrera would be. Laffey, Carmona, and Westbrook would certainly enjoy it.

by Peter Bendix on Jul 17, 2008 4:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ellis is making $5 MM this year; he’s unlikely to sign for 2/12. Plus, would LaRoche-Cabrera-Ellis be better than Marte-Peralta-Cabrera?

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