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Injuries, Movies, Coffee and Gin talk.

• Barfield could be two to three weeks away from returning.
• Victor is about three weeks removed from game activity.
• Fausto Carmona will have his last rehab start at Akron tommorow and is expected back next week.
• Travis Hafner's is at about 65 percent strength, Soloff is "very optimistic."

Link 4 months ago Aabalboni_tiny Toxicadam Comment 129 comments 2 recs |

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Percentages of health are always dubious in my mind, but my God, if Soloff is saying that Hafner is just now at 65%, what was he playing at?

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Jul 18, 2008 3:49 PM EDT   0 recs

Travis said less than 15% when he was initially diagnosed. Basically said his arm was useless right before he went on the DL. He had problems even doing everyday things like driving, etc.

by Toxicadam on Jul 18, 2008 3:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Really? He couldn’t drive? Why was he playing major league baseball?

by SuddenSam on Jul 18, 2008 4:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well ‘driving a car’ was used as an example by the interviewer (it was either Schwab or Rosie) .. Travis just admitted that he felt pain when doing everyday things (like driving).

by Toxicadam on Jul 18, 2008 4:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yea, I read from either Soloff or Travis that the shoulder was at 0% when they finally shut him down. Now what’s the difference between 0 and 15? I don’t know, but neither is good.

by xrickx on Jul 18, 2008 4:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow.

FIRE SOMEONE.

by supermarioelia on Jul 18, 2008 8:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Exactly. The strength percentage thing is measurable – unlike many other percentage and health issues. And what’s the diagnosis BS? What the hell is he supposed to have? Muscular distrophy? This whole thing just stinks to high heaven.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 18, 2008 9:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It really does. If he’s having trouble doing daily tasks, what the hell was he doing near the ballpark? We have this guy signed UNTIL 2012!!! He certainly wasn’t going to miraculously heal while playing every day, just like Vic wasn’t going to. Playing through pain when you’re producing is a risky proposition in itself. Playing through it when you’re struggling and when you’re signed long-term…..well that’s just baffling.

by supermarioelia on Jul 19, 2008 10:24 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Baffling? I’d go with irresponsible.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jul 19, 2008 10:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It’s even worse than that. He was signed to a long term contract while he was struggling. And now it looks like he was signed while he wasstruggling and injured . It’s my worst case scenario.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 19, 2008 10:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You know, I do take issue with the idea that the players are being reckless by playing through pain. Everybody who has played a sport, even at the prep level, knows you hurt all the time. Unless you’re a physical therapist, how can you know the difference between a serious injury and one that will go away on its own based on pain? I’ll grant you that in Hafner’s case, it seems as though there may have been some more obvious clues, but I don’t fault players for not wanting to be perceived as whiners.

by fleerdon on Jul 19, 2008 5:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Then you’ve never been really injured. There’s the “it hurts when I do this injury” and then there’s the “I can’t lift my arm over my shoulder injury”. One’s usually a pain caused swelling or bruising the others can be caused by damaged muscles/tendon/cartlidge/bone. Not all that clear-cut, but when you screw up muscle and connective tissue, you can tell – most of the time.

BTW, I never hurt much when I was 18 and playing baseball – almost never in fact.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 19, 2008 5:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Obviously I’m not going to argue medicine with you. I’m not that presumptuous (generally). But your comment doesn’t match my experience, and I wonder whether it would match a professional athlete’s experience either. If an athlete is having loss-of-function pain, then he’s definitely being negligent by not seeking medical attention. And if he’s got a little bruising and refuses to brass it out, then he’s definitely being negligent by not doing what he gets paid to do. But if there weren’t some significant grey area between the two, I think sports medicine would get a lot less shelf space in medical libraries. And that’s really all I’m trying to say.

by fleerdon on Jul 20, 2008 12:28 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I tried to leave a little wiggle room in my post, because you’re right, it is complicated. But a 50% loss in muscle strength is more than an injury you can play through. In fact I’d be willing to wager that the more Hafner played the more the strength loss increased – another good indicator that he needed to shut down.

For a guy off the streeet – or most non-pro players – the doc would rely on the patients oral history to make a Dx. But for a guy about to sign a $56M contract, he should be MRI’ed from his hair follicles to his toe nails. You don’t risk tens of millions of dollars based on patient history. You want objective evidence – not hear say.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 20, 2008 8:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Zzzzzzzzzzzz … of course Hafner was MRI’ed thoroughly before the contract was signed.

He also was MRI’ed thoroughly again this past March, according to Soloff, and there as no indication of this.

by Jay on Jul 20, 2008 10:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don’t think it’s an issue so much ith the players as with the training staff. They should have been on top of these things. Did they sign Hafner to a long term deal without a full physical workup?

by ganatz on Jul 19, 2008 8:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Of course not.

by Jay on Jul 19, 2008 8:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

We can argue this, but if in fact Hafner’s injury pre-dates his signing, then clearly they didn’t do “a full physical workup”. But of course Hafner’ could have been hurt after the signing. Otherwise, and I’ll leave this to one of our many site lawyers to argue, the Tribe would have grounds to void Hafner’s contract. The Angels had a similar opporunity with Gary Maddux Jr. after he signed a big FA contract and was found to have used PEDs and proceeded to stink.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 20, 2008 10:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m not a lawyer, but the Players Association would have a field day with this one. You pretty much can’t sue to void the contract unless you never want to sign a player to anything more than one-year contracts. If Hafner’s injury preceded the signing of the contract, you pretty much have to fold it up and put it in your back pocket. Grin and bear it.

by odradek on Jul 20, 2008 1:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Told you in person what I’ll post here again … Hafner’s injuries this season and his struggles last season are not necessarily connected at all. In fact, it doesn’t seem likely — given the specific facts — that they are related more than tangentially.

by Jay on Jul 20, 2008 10:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m sincerely interested – what facts are you basing this on?

by ganatz on Jul 21, 2008 12:18 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And like I told you at the time, I’m not thoroughly convinced that there is no relationship.

The accuracy of the MRI report is highly dependant on which MRIs were performed and who interpreted them. A few years ago an orthopod friend of mine said that the radiologists were batting about .500 with their MRI readings. That is what they reported jibed with what he found when opening up the patient ~50% of the time. When I talked with him a month or so ago he said it was more like 75-80% now. That means that they’re inaccurate more than 20% of the time. Now this is far from a scientific study but I’ll bet that it’s in the ballpark.

As to Soloff – I don’t believe a word outta the man’s mouth. I won’t trust him to treat my gold fishes fungal infection, let alone a multi-million dollar investment.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 21, 2008 6:53 AM EDT to parent up   1 recs

I would argue that pain should still be used as a powerful indicator of damage, and should only be played through when there is some sort of finality coming soon, whether it be the end of the season or the end of a career. A player playing through pain with five years left on a contract and while not producing….I don’t get it.

And I would assume that the jobs of the training/medical staff include both rehabbing and assessing. I know sports medicine in general is a field filled with guesswork, but their job is based on making the correct assessment at least some of the time, and we shouldn’t necessarily always give them the benefit of the doubt.

by supermarioelia on Jul 19, 2008 11:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m not commenting on the medical staff, about which I have even less knowledge than I do about playing sports. And I’m not endorsing playing through pain, which is inarguably dumb at some point. I’m just trying to put myself in the player’s position. Take Shoppach, for example. His shoulder’s been reconstructed; I’ve heard him say that the surgery restored the joint’s functionality, but it more or less always hurts him. If something else went wrong with it, how the heck would he know? And what would he do about it? “Hey, Lonnie, you know how my arm always causes me pain? It’s doing it again.” Dude’s got a job to do, and I suspect that, unless he felt his ability to do that job was genuinely threatened, he’s gonna try to get that job done.

by fleerdon on Jul 20, 2008 12:19 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Most definitely. But the point is that Shoppach is currently functional, he likely doesn’t feel it getting worse, and he’s been told by medical staff that since he’s already had surgery, there’s little that rest or rehab will do to help him. I’m not sure the same could’ve been said about Vic or Hafner.

by supermarioelia on Jul 20, 2008 12:40 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Every aspect of medicine involves a little guesswork – but keep that under your hat, we wouldn’t want the public to find out.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 20, 2008 8:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’ve heard the term “frozen shoulder”, which I have no idea what that means other than that it hurts to do anything. and that the shoulder needs to be “thawed” (no, seriously), then have the strength built again.

by The DiaTriber on Jul 18, 2008 4:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Here ya go: frozen shoulder. It’s an old man’s disease – unless there’s an underlying fracture. This is more BS.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 18, 2008 9:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m at a loss with all these percentages. 65% of what? 65% of his peak strength? Is 0% the strength of a dead man? The maximum strength of a weak person? If you reach 0% is your arm not recieving blood?

I just don’t get it. If you worked out a lot and had really strong shoulders at one point and now you don’t, are you at 50%? Less?

How could he be living his life at 15%? Could he lift a gallon of milk?

by afh4 on Jul 18, 2008 8:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Lonnie Soloff kinda sounds like a hack these days.

by supermarioelia on Jul 18, 2008 8:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Measured against the other shoulder, I think.

by fleerdon on Jul 18, 2008 9:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

write us something

by Gradyforpresident on Jul 18, 2008 9:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Here try this. There’s a lot of stuff available but almost all of it is subscribtion based. Suffice to say there’s all kinds of methods for measuring shoulder muscle strength accurately.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 18, 2008 10:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Pretty straight up. If in April of 2006 Hafner could pronate 80 lbs and today he can pronate 50 lbs. he’s lost 35% of his shoulder muscle strength. Of course they’re gonna measure his lifting ability in other planes and probably report and average.

So yean, if he couldn’t lift anything he’d be at 0%.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 18, 2008 10:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

This just makes me hold out hope that Hafner might actually be good again next year.

I keep telling myself that if I could stop being so damn irrationally optimistic sometimes, I could avoid all the soul-crushingness of these disappointments :-)

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Jul 18, 2008 5:11 PM EDT   0 recs

What fun would that be?

Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and also has hopes for Gutz. Free Marte.

by mjmarble on Jul 18, 2008 5:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually all of this smoke and mirrors BS just increases my pessimism about Hafner’s comeback. At the start of the year I gave it 10%. It’s down to 2% now.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 18, 2008 9:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree that the double-talking doesn’t augur well.

by odradek on Jul 18, 2008 9:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

This just strikes me as a bit of a Negative Nancy, Chuck. First off, define “comeback” – are you looking for a Hafner of 05-’06? To me he just hasn’t been the same since he was injured at the end of the ‘06 season. I’ll give you that there’s a lot of doublespeak and other BS but that doesn’t mean that there’s something going on. The FO is known for saying little if nothing at all, but not outright lying.

I’ll take a Pronk that’s 80% of his peak levels anyday. I hope that he takes his time coming back during this bust of a season. Maybe get him back the last month or so simply to regain some of his timing and swagger. Otherwise just shelve him and let him fully recoup.

Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and also has hopes for Gutz. Free Marte.

by mjmarble on Jul 19, 2008 6:07 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’ve not a Negative Nancy about Hafner mj. I’m waaaay past that. I got Jay and Pat Tabler all riled up a coupla months ago when I said that Hafner would either OPS at .900 or greater or .600 or lower – nothing in between – when he got back. I believe that more now than ever.

So here’s my bottom line once again: he’s either washed up – OPS less than .600 or he’s back at about 90% – OPS greater than .900. And I believe that the chances that he plays somewhere in between are vanishingly small.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 19, 2008 9:40 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I told Chuck this in person but probably never posted it here … I eventually came around to Chuck’s view on this. I don’t the chance of an OPS in the 800’s is quite as tiny as Chuck thinks it is, but I now feel that the chance is pretty small.

Hafner seems to have a fundamental physical problem — maybe he has other problems, too, but those would seem to be problems that can be worked through. If he can get past his strength issues, injury, whatever it is, there’s every reason to think he can be a very good hitter again. If he can’t, there’s little reason to think he can be a productive hitter at all.

by Jay on Jul 19, 2008 12:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It’s a lot easier to communicate in person than over these Internet tubes, isn’t it Jay?

I should add that on more than one occasion whenever I thought that a medical condition had been handled this poorly there were extenuating circumstances that I was unaware of that turned out to be critical. Otherwise I’d make it less than 1% that Hafner ever comes back. I don’t give a tinker’s dam what Soloff says, it’s god-awful hard to come back from a 50% reduction in strength at Hafner’s age.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 19, 2008 2:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Want to bet that Barfield isn’t back in three weeks? And Victor isn’t back in three weeks?

Indians seem to underestimate time out for injuries. Cf. Westbrook earlier this year.

by odradek on Jul 18, 2008 6:57 PM EDT   0 recs

I’ll take odds that Barfield is back but that you’re right on Victor.

Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and also has hopes for Gutz. Free Marte.

by mjmarble on Jul 19, 2008 6:10 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Guys, just a quick reminder … please don’t post links to the CastroTurf homepage. They go out of date within a day, sometimes within an hour.

If you want to FanShot the current top item there, click on the headline of that item, and you’ll be taken to a page with just that article. Use that page’s address for the FanShot link.

by Jay on Jul 18, 2008 8:24 PM EDT   0 recs

jay did not have to fix my link for the asdrubal announcement. i just want everyone to know that in case they think guys means everyone. i take my linking very seriously.

by Brick. on Jul 18, 2008 9:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Drink your coffee, Brick.

by Jay on Jul 19, 2008 3:27 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Is that what he’s drinking these days? I’m disappointed. What ever happened to the Hair of the Dog that Bit You?

Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and also has hopes for Gutz. Free Marte.

by mjmarble on Jul 19, 2008 6:09 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

dunkin donuts iced coffee this morning! i’m still amazed how tastey this stuff is.

by Brick. on Jul 19, 2008 10:57 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I hear one out of every four Americans is now classified as obese.

by Jay on Jul 19, 2008 12:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

from drinking black iced coffee?

by Brick. on Jul 19, 2008 2:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It’s the doughnuts dude. The coffee’s just a come-on so they can hook you on the jelly-filled.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 19, 2008 2:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If you got a black coffee, iced or not, from DD, it would be the first I ever heard of.

by Jay on Jul 19, 2008 3:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

So whatcha doin’ on a Saturday afternoon?

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 19, 2008 3:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Not much.

by Jay on Jul 19, 2008 8:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i don’t get it. i hate cream and sugar in coffee. is there something “not black” about dunkin’ donuts coffee when you order it black?

by Brick. on Jul 19, 2008 11:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Must be an East Coast thing.

by fleerdon on Jul 20, 2008 12:34 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don’t know. I’m just saying, every time I’ve ordered a coffee at DD, or seen one ordered, the staff just dumped cream and sugar in it without asking.

And isn’t all the coffee there flavored, like, snickerdoodle or something?

by Jay on Jul 20, 2008 10:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m joshing. The reason fast food places try to add your cream and sugar for you has nothing to do with service, of course. It’s about reducing liability. If an employee burns herself on a spilled cup of coffee, there’s a lot less lawsuit potential than if a customer does it. And since black-coffee drinkers are the minority, employees are probably trained to add cream and sugar unless the customer makes a point of ordering it black.

For what it’s worth, my experience has generally been that DD is a decent straight-ahead brew, but I’m a Tim Horton’s man. DD at least know what Starbucks and the other big chains apparently don’t, which is that the way to keep coffee fresh is to make more. Those big carafes make everything taste like asphalt to me.

Thank you for causing me to look up the word “snickerdoodle.”

by fleerdon on Jul 21, 2008 9:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

People who put cream and sugar in coffee don’t like coffee. They like cream and sugar. Black is simply the natural order of things. Not that cream in coffee can’t serve a purpose, it just doesn’t make it taste better:

by FredOx on Jul 20, 2008 8:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Nonsense. The cultures that first introduced coffee to the world drank it with cream.

by Jay on Jul 20, 2008 10:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure, and there’s a tremendous amount of difference between the brew originally prepared in Ethiopia and later in Turkey and the Arabian peninsula and the weak stuff you find at Dunkin Donuts. Cream may be appropriate in the former (originally, the Ethiopians didn’t even roast the beans; they just boiled the berries) but I stand by my principle that it is sacrilege in the latter.

I have two guiding principles – nothing but beans and water in coffee and nothing but ice in bourbon.

From the History of Coffee:

1668: Coffee replaces beer as New York’s City’s favorite breakfast drink.

by FredOx on Jul 20, 2008 11:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sacrilege?

Somebody is taking himself way too seriously.

by Jay on Jul 20, 2008 11:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I never take myself seriously, but there’s no way to know that on the Internets. I’m just in a bad mood today.

by FredOx on Jul 21, 2008 10:18 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Got it, sorry for the brush-back.

There are ways to telegraph lack of seriousness on the internets. Here’s one favorite method around these parts.

Serious: Adding cream and sugar to your coffee is sacrilege.

Not serious: CREAM IN COFFEE?!!! UN-POSSIBLE! SACRILEGE! FIRE SUGAR!!! FIRE CREAM!!!!

by Jay on Jul 21, 2008 4:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ice in bourbon? Have you no diginity at all?

by ganatz on Jul 21, 2008 12:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Have you no POOP at all?

by ganatz on Jul 21, 2008 12:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

There’s a new puppy in the house. I have nothing but poop around here.

It’s almost 100 in Richmond today, so yeah I put ice in the bourbon. Drink it fast enough, and you won’t dilute it. Plus, diluted Booker’s is still better than most of the stuff on the shelf at the local government-run liquortorium. I miss Liquor Barn.

by FredOx on Jul 21, 2008 10:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The missus hails from Louisville, so I know the joys of Liquor barn. The only place I like better is the original Sam’s wine here in Chicago.

I guess if you’re drinking outside, ice would be ok. But my inlaws would give you a funny look unless you drink bourbon neat. The only exception would be a julep around Derby time.

I’m not going to quibble much, tho, with a fellow bourbon lover. It is truly the greatest drink.

by ganatz on Jul 21, 2008 11:14 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Had one this morning…black as night.

by The DiaTriber on Jul 20, 2008 10:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

‘Attaway, Brick. Gin, black coffee…man after my own heart.

by fleerdon on Jul 19, 2008 5:20 PM EDT to parent up   1 recs

it’s weird with me about gin though. the more i grow to like it, the more i’m affraid i like it too much and allow myself to get it less.

by Brick. on Jul 19, 2008 11:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs