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Game Eighty-Four: It's Over

280701104_indians_whitesox_88766086_lbig_medium

via www.fangraphs.com


Highest WPA Lowest WPA
Cliff Lee .413 Joe Borowski -.791
Casey Blake .406 Jhonny Peralta -.128
Rafael Betancourt .106 Grady Sizemore -.121

The end was coming, but it still sucks.

As I mentioned earlier in the week, the schedule was set up for the Indians to make a lot of ground. If they had taken 6 out of 8 against divisional opponents, then split the four-game series against Tampa going into the All-Star Break, they would still have had a lot to make up, but coming back would nevertheless be plausible. Especially with Fausto Carmona due back in the rotation, and Victor Martinez and Travis Hafner now being a few weeks away from returning to the lineup.

But that stretch also meant that one bad series would end the season. Which has happened. Now it's time for Mark Shapiro to take stock of the organization, identify the most pressing needs, and field about ten thousand calls for CC Sabathia. (Other goals: get somebody to overpay for Casey Blake and Paul Byrd, and foist David Dellucci on somebody.)

The game itself was a nice microcosm of this year's team. Cliff Lee again pitched magnificently, but couldn't stick around long enough for the offense to score its second run of the game. And when the Indians did take the lead, Joe Borowski blew the lead and the game. One good thing about the end of competitiveness is that the Indians don't have to pretend to need Borowski closing or even pitching in games.

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Comments

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Suddenly it feels as if this team is capable of losing 100 games.

by Toxicadam on Jul 2, 2008 6:00 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, I’d like to really try to avoid this. Finishing 3rd or 4th should be a mini-goal.

by DaytonDogg on Jul 2, 2008 8:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ehh, if we aren’t going to the playoffs, i say lets do as bad as possible. Force them to play some of the youngsters (ie – Marte), and hopefully get us a top 3 pick.

I don’t trust this team with the draft (they do great outside of the draft). Therefore, I’d like them to have a draft pick so high that there is no way they can pick a 90 mph lefty or an average college hitter.

by tyler083 on Jul 2, 2008 10:30 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think maintaining some respectability is worth more than 5 or 10 spots in the draft. The amateur draft is a pretty huge crap shoot, even in the top ten picks. I get that 60 wins vs. 75 wins doesn’t do much for most people, but I just can’t stand all that losing. It will be harder to sell the team to the city and its fans. It hurts to watch. I just don’t want any part of that.

by DaytonDogg on Jul 2, 2008 11:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, in 2007’s draft (which due to our late end of 2006 surge) meant the difference between landing Beau Mills (13th pick) instead of La Porta (7th pick).

by Toxicadam on Jul 2, 2008 11:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Would we have picked La Porta with the 7th pick? What if we would have ended up with Ross Detwiler? Struggling for the second straight year in Washington’s system. He was picked 6th. And if we would have won a few more games, maybe we could have drafted J.P. Arencibia (21st to Toronto) who has also out performed Mills (and while not quite LaPorta-cool in power numbers, he is a Catcher).

by DaytonDogg on Jul 2, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I tend to agree with Tox on this. If the season’s over, the only value of winning is putting some butts in the seats and getting guys used to winning. But the draft—top 5 picks are everything.

by fleerdon on Jul 2, 2008 3:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Whatever. Take 2000- we just missed the playoffs, got a crappy draft pick and ended up taking Corey Smith at #26. Well, just by a glance, it looks like there are about 2 impact players in the top 25. Adrian Gonzalez taken at #1 and Chase Utley taken at #15. Otherwise its Boof Bonsers and Billy Trabers. I mean, if all I get for watching a 100 loss team is a minimally better chance at getting lucky on a player that might help is 5 years, I’ll take the 85 loss team instead.

by DaytonDogg on Jul 2, 2008 3:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If I overstated the value of a top draft pick, you understated it. Only a handful of amateur draftees are good bets to help in less than 5 years, and those guys go quickly.

It’s all talk, man. The Indians aren’t going to TRY to lose. But a hopeless season is a hopeless season. I don’t see the point in angling for a lesser degree of hopelessness.

by fleerdon on Jul 2, 2008 7:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The more critical inflection point, and one I stressed two years ago, is the difference between finishing with the 15th-worst record and the 16th-worst record — remembering that we’ll “win” (lose) all tie-breakers, so we need to be the undisputed 15th-worst.

The top 15 draft picks are “protected” from compensation rules. Therefore, a team signing a Type A free agent surrenders only its second-round pick if they had one of the 15 worst records. If they had one of the 15 best records, they surrender their first-round pick.

If you sign two Type A free agents, it’s even more severe of a difference: either you’re giving up your first-rounder and second-rounder, or your second-rounder and third-rounder. So either you’re picking 15th and 127th, or you’re picking 93rd and 128th.

“Fortunately” — the Indians seem unlikely to go 44-34 down the stretch, which would put them at 81-81. A very encouraging showing at 42-36 — very possible but not probable — would put them safely out of danger at 79-83.

by Jay on Jul 2, 2008 8:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Any rule that encourages a participant to give less than his/their utmost effort to win, is an embarrassment to the ethos of competitive sports. Sport exists primarily to display the beauty of ernest competition and the heroic effort of its participants. We are foolish to jade our children by bastardizing this goal and we waste opportunity to express exactly what sport should represent.

by elsandito on Jul 2, 2008 9:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To be clear, I don’t think we should ever encourage any Participants in a game to do anything but win, explicitly or implicitly or tacitly or any otherly.

Having said that, the decisions of the front office with respect to how to fill the roster, and of the manager with the respect to who should be given what playing opportunities, may not be done with the goal of Winning Today in mind, and I believe this is the norm in every major team sport.

In other words, the choice of who will be the Participants may be about next year, but the play of the Participants — and the manager’s in-game strategic decisions — must always only be about Winning Today. Anything less is a fraud.

by Jay on Jul 2, 2008 9:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gee Sandy I didn’t know you were such an idealist. You’ve only got half of the equation. Professional baseball is exactly that: professional. It’s a sport and a business. If it were amateur baseball I’d be in violent agreement with you, but it’s not. The sport side is devouted to “display the beauty of ernest competition”. The business side is to devouted to making money. Never, ever forget the business side of professional baseball. I’m sure that Dolan and Shapiro don’t.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 3, 2008 8:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If society allows pro sports to dilute the message of sport, society wastes a valuable opportunity. I believe there is opportunity to profit from pro sports without crossing this line. The rules that the allow the worst teams to select first in the draft are also based on ideals. Unscrupulous participants have abused this rule. (no better example than the Cavs’ season before LeBron) Let’s not build my comments into a federal case. All I’m really saying is that we need some slight rule modification to keep participants trying to win.

by elsandito on Jul 3, 2008 8:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and harder to sell to prospective FAs

by JulioBernazard on Jul 2, 2008 11:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It’s hard to go from 65 wins in 2008 to 95 in 2009. But going from 79 to 95 is better.

by odradek on Jul 3, 2008 12:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

identify the most pressing needs
* batters who can hit for power * batters who can hit for average * batters who can draw walks * a dependable closer * bullpen help * intelligent baserunners

Who closes from now on?

by JulioBernazard on Jul 2, 2008 8:32 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here’s the trouble I see: Shapiro has allowed Wedge to pilot the team as he saw fit with seemingly minimal intervention. But now that the season is lost, can Wedge change his entire approach to managing and allow for development and assessment?

This means sitting Casey more often, or at least moving him to the OF and allowing Andy to play. This means never bringing Borowski into another ballgame (or close, anyway).

I just can’t imagine Wedge deciding that because the season is lost, he’s going to implement changes that might benefit the team in future seasons, if not this one. That’s not his style. He likes “his guys,” and I’ll be surprised to see him sit “his guys.”

This is where Shapiro needs to step in and make it clear what needs to be happening.

by tabler84 on Jul 2, 2008 8:38 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Does Mark Shapiro even work for the Cleveland Indians any more? I haven’t seen him at a press conference in a really long time. If he shows up soon with a tan, looking refreshed, it’s time to assume he took this year off.

by NickFantana on Jul 2, 2008 8:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I actually think for once we need to be giving Blake regular playing time until he is traded

by Roger Dorn on Jul 2, 2008 8:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, that’s got to be the right move. I just hope we can unload him for anything of potential value.

by tabler84 on Jul 2, 2008 9:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I have problems with some of the things Wedge did as a manager this year (and in the past), in particular involving how he handles guys in the bullpen. But, playing Blake at this point is hardly stupid; as Chuck said, he’s actually hitting the ball. I think the Indians still had hopes of making a little run in the last week or two (with a soft schedule and all that), so playing Blake made sense. I think they SHOULD play him at first and in the outfield, not just at 3rd (where he’s pretty marginal), which would give Marte a few AB’s, keep Garko out of the line up (please!!), and maybe even crowd Dellucci out a bit more.

Without intending to defend Wedge, the problem with this team starts elsewhere - bad bullpen, guys like Gutierrez and Garko and Cabrera who have taken several steps backward, injuries, young players like Choo and Francisco who are inconsistent and mistake-prone, overconfidence in the front office, etc. Did Wedge get the most out of the guys he has? NO, obviously. But, it’s hard to imagine which manager would have made this into a playoff team. Have a look - it’s not a very good team, at this point.

by peter m on Jul 2, 2008 10:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just don’t see Wedge being as autonomous as you imply. That is I’m sure that Shapiro has given him his marching orders and he’s carrying them out. And unless we’re trying to get the first pick of the draft I can’t imagine them sitting Casey – he’s one of the few guys who are hitting.

This season is just soul crushing. I had high hopes, but just about everything that could go wrong with a team has happened to my Indians. And to add to the misery, there’s not even any characters on this team at all. No Pedro Ramos’s to shot out the Chinese laterns at the owners All Star Break bar-b-que, no Chico Salmon’s with their occult beliefs, no John Lowenstien’s offering at least comic relief. Not much to capture your attention and distract you from the awful baseball.

BTW, when was the last time a team went from having the best record in baseball to having the worst? Innui has got me so bad I’m too lazy to do the research.

And just for the hell of it, here’s SI’s preview of the ‘64 Indians. Somehow it seemed relevent.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jul 2, 2008 9:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wedge did more or less exactly all the right things developmentally in the second half of 2006, and in all of 2003 of course, in part because some of the usual vets were traded away. Let me put it this way, Aaron Boone only started 10 of the last 63 games, and Andy Marte started 49 times in that span — the only sustained audition in Marte’s career.

Here’s post-All-Star break 2006 splits for the hitters and pitchers.

by Jay on Jul 2, 2008 9:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, fair enough. I’m just stewing about his apparent dogmatism. And that makes the hurt feel better.

by tabler84 on Jul 2, 2008 9:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That made the hurt feel better? You could really look into chemical dependency or displaced vengeance next time.

by fleerdon on Jul 2, 2008 12:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m ready for it to be over. This tenterhook hangin’ is getting me down.

2008 in general has sucked for me. But I’m not foolish enough to say it can’t get worse. Argh.

by Julie on Jul 2, 2008 8:54 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Andy Marte hates Casey Blake.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 2, 2008 9:09 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   2 recs

This is funny.

And let me just say that I am crazily disappointed in Hammy’s condescending, matter-of-fact, Marte-sucks-balls-I-have-proof shenanigans. Last night Hammy said about Jamey Carroll, “That guy is just a baseball player.” Eric Wedge owns the booth—and I say this as someone who appreciates the effort of Blake and Carroll. But seriously, Hammy is supposed to be Hammy, not a nauseating blatherer.

by tabler84 on Jul 2, 2008 9:23 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say. Is it that Hammy’s a shill for the Indians, is that it?

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jul 2, 2008 9:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More accurately, Hammy has bought into the gritty/gamer fallacy stuff that Fire Joe Morgan is always railing against. I remember hearing Hammy and Hegan wax rhapsodic over Darin Erstad’s grittiness and his football career at Nebraska. Blake and Carroll are gritty gamers. Marte is perceived not to be so. Really, Hammy has been all over Marte ever since watching him make so many errors on that crappy infield at Winter Haven and nothing that has happened since has changed his opinion.

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Jul 2, 2008 9:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That about sums it up. I still love him, and I don’t think he’s a shill for the team at all. He’ll lay his own thoughts out there all the time. I just tire of the grit bias. News flash for all broadcasters: Darin Erstad sucks. Almost beyond words. One year of greatness and a career of red-assedness has apparently been enough to obscure the fact that he sucks.

by tabler84 on Jul 2, 2008 10:01 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Well Hammy’s not alone in the gritty/gamer “fallacy”. A lot of guys who’ve actually played sports – unlike the guys who write for Fire Joe Morgan – buy into it. Many, indeed most all, of the current and former players, like Joe Morgan, believe that effort plays a big part in player success. It may not be measurable, but a lot of guys think that locker room atmosphere, leadership and a whole host of other fallacy’s have impact on how a team performs.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jul 2, 2008 10:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you need to take it on an individual basis. Erstad’s grit, desire, toughness, effort, whatever….does not change the fact that he was one of the worst players in the league for so many years.

Likewise, there are plenty of guys that have those qualities that are in fact quality major leaguers.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 2, 2008 10:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep. I get annoyed when people automatically equate grit with awesomeness, just as they equate old-school with “just a different way of thinking.” You can be gritty crappy and you can be old-school dumb. Erstad is gritty crappy. Hoynes is old-school dumb.

by tabler84 on Jul 2, 2008 10:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

See and that’s the great thing about sports. You have tangible proof – what’s the gritty guys OBP? is the “natural hitter” actually hitting? what’s the sabermetric GM’s team record? In sports there are no excuses – it’s all abour results.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jul 2, 2008 10:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From a broadcaster and fan perspective I think its just a matter of preference. A lot of people like to cheer for the guy that tries his ass off on the field and shows emotion and tries to overcome their overall lack of talent. Others have favorites that are extremely skilled and/or talented. Manny Ramirez happens to be my favorite player of all time, but I can’t fault some one who loves Jamey Carroll more.

by DaytonDogg on Jul 2, 2008 10:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My problem is that it is that the appearance of effort is often perceived as the same as effort. We perceive some players as “lazy” because it doesn’t look like they’re trying as hard as some other guys. Blake and Carroll are perceived as trying hard all the time while Peralta and Marte, to name two examples, are perceived as not tryaing as hard. Why? Do we really believe that Peralta and Marte are giving any less effort while they’re on the field as Blake and Carroll? I sure don’t.

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Jul 2, 2008 10:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

My problem is that it is that the appearance of effort is often perceived as the same as effort.

For emphasis.

by Jay on Jul 2, 2008 2:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   2 recs

One of my first conversations with Scott Raab was about this, and the racial component of it. We speculated on why Gutierrez was (at the time) perceived as not trying all that hard, while DiMaggio was described as graceful, gazelle-like, etc. Neither of us could figure out what the difference was between the two styles being described.

by Jay on Jul 2, 2008 2:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did you guys talk about the difference in eras too? I think the idea of a lazy athlete is a late 20th Century concept.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jul 2, 2008 2:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Assume that Casey Blake continues this kind of productions for the rest of the year. .280, 15HR’s 80 RBI’s. What kind of contract will he fetch next year? 2 year, 16 million with team option for a 3rd?

What an amazing (and unlikely) career he has had.

by Toxicadam on Jul 2, 2008 10:25 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a deal like that would make dellucci’s contract look like a colon-trade level steal.

by mpstable on Jul 2, 2008 11:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Blake is auditioning for a trade

by palcal on Jul 2, 2008 3:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

first, is hammy really wrong about marte?

and second, i understand where you guys are coming from, but hammy knows his audience…while we would enjoy the hell out of a stat-based broadcast, the second hammy and hegan start talking ISO and LD% they lose the listeners. period.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 2, 2008 6:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t think the idea that Marte has not gotten any real opportunity to play — and therefore we don’t know what the hell he really is — is in any way statistically advanced, or even sophisticated in a general way.

Hammy could say: “There’s no real reason to think Andy Marte is any kind of answer, at third base or in the lineup.” That would invite minimal if any flak around here. More honest and observant still would be to then add: “Of course, we really don’t know whether he’s the answer or not, since he’s never had a chance to play on a regular basis.”

Marte’s big audition this year was starting five starts in eight days — and only getting lifted twice! — for a grand total of 18 PA. He didn’t set the world on fire, but he wasn’t terrible either — he went 4 for 17, with a double, a stolen base and a successful sac-bunt. Not bad, considering he hadn’t seen live pitching almost two weeks prior to that — and we don’t know that Francisco would do any better in those circumstances.

Outside of those glorious eight days, Marte has not been sent to the plate more than 8 times in any ten-day span this year.

by Jay on Jul 2, 2008 7:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think I do remember one instance where Hammy actually did mention that Marte hadn’t been given much of a chance thus far. Outside of that though, it’s been a continuous slew of brainless attacks.

by supermarioelia on Jul 3, 2008 10:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t know whether Hammy is right or wrong, but his statements about Marte have to be put into the context of his complete dislike of Andy. I remember listening to Hammy during game 1 of Spring Training and hearing him flat-out dog Marte at every chance available. He’s pretty much maintained that attitude since. At some point prior to this pre-season Hammy decided Marte sucks and has ridden that train ever since.

by APV on Jul 3, 2008 12:46 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By the way, is there an unwritten rule that the Chicago middle infielders have to hit home runs against us? Almost every series it’s guys like Uribe, Ramirez, etc who seem to do well against us, but cruddy vs the rest of the league. Or am I just imagining that?

by talonk on Jul 2, 2008 10:55 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Apropos quote from my brother, “Joe Borowski just closed out the Indians season.”

by oxforddave on Jul 2, 2008 11:02 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   2 recs

He’s just not a major league pitcher anymore. I see Borowski returning to New Jersey and pitching in the Atlantic League. The Newark Bears are the defending champs and Randall Simon and Bobby Hill. No sarcasm at all, I like this kind of thing.

I’m hoping to see some Independent League baseball this summer, and some Rookie League and Low A games. Like, returning to the source.

by jhon on Jul 2, 2008 1:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In this case is source just a polite word for s**t?

Brandon Phillips is a good example of this.

by NickFantana on Jul 2, 2008 1:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can understand piling on JoBo right now, but let’s face it, even if Gutz had been able to catch the Ramierz home run in the 10th (or even if JoBo had struck him out on three pitches) and we won the game, I can’t say a win in this game would have meant we should not run up the white flag on the season, and I can’t imagine the FO is that ‘result oriented’ either.

Other than Lee’s performance, the game was a disaster for a team that hopes to make the playoffs (or even contend).

Shapiro could not look at a 10.5 games back 38-46 team much differently than the 11.5 game back 37-47 team he woke up with this morning.

Last night may have only saved us from a long, lingering demise like some patient with a terminal disease. Call it a blessing, because “at least was quick.”

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Jul 2, 2008 2:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Losing last night sucked because we had the game won. Losing when you have the game won sucks. Watching the White Sox gather at home plate and high five each other because you blew the game to them sucks. Watching them jump and high five each other at home plate because they beat your sorrow shell of a closer sucks.

It doesn’t matter whether we’re 10.5 or 11.5 games back. It doesn’t matter whether it gets us that one step closer to Shapiro’s upcoming demolition of the team’s bathroom. It sucks because we lost a game we had won to the White Sox. Period. Any resulting “blessing” is minimal at best.

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Jul 2, 2008 2:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I disagree with only one thing you said …

Losing last night sucked because we had the game won.

... JoBo was on the mound with a one run lead and a strong wind blowing out to left.

You must have misunderstood my sarcasm in saying it was a blessing. That’s the most absurd thing people usually say at a funeral, because it doesn’t make the departed any less dead.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Jul 2, 2008 2:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Despite what lawyers think the death rate is still 100%. Trust me: there are merciful deaths.

What we are witnessing at Jacobs – I refuse to call it “Progressive” – Field is a merciful death.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jul 2, 2008 2:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Economists think it’s 100% too. As Adam Smith said, “in the end, we’re all dead.”

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Jul 2, 2008 3:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t think Gutz had a shot at the ball, Ben maybe.

by palcal on Jul 2, 2008 3:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was listening to the game on regular AM radio – my XM receiver (and the Sox announcers) was (mercifully) in the other car. Even more mercifully, I was driving under street lights when the home run went out, so I missed the precise call and didn’t know who had a shot.

The box score I looked at had Gutz in left. While I found that odd, it’s all I had at the time of the post.

(All that being said, Gutz probably would have had a shot at the ball if he wasn’t so damned lazy.)

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Jul 2, 2008 3:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I didn’t see it. How on earth could Ben have a shot at a ball Gutz couldn’t / didn’t get to? I’m very puzzled.

by jhon on Jul 2, 2008 3:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The ball was hit to left – just over the wall into the bullpen. Ben was playing there, leapt for it, and came down empty.

Gutz was in right. (My bad on putting him in left to make the play.)

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Jul 2, 2008 3:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is anyone else having trouble putting their frustration into words? I want to be angy about this season, but this season is so unbelievable that I am left just slack-jawed and speachless. Typing “AAAAAAAARRRGGGGHH!!!” gives me no relief. Frankly, screaming it at 6:30 this morning after finding out they lost gave me no relief either. I mean, just, really, AAAAAAARRRRRGGGHHH!!!

I have read and re-read afh4’s Let go, Tribe several times. It worked for a day or two, but like a junky, the increased dosage of reading it several times a day does not produce the same intial effect.

I can’t even root for individual accomplishment because the candidates are Cliff Lee and CC. One of whom I bashed so thoroughly last year that it would completely hypocrytical and just plain weak of me to root for now with any enthusiam and the other won’t be an Indian in 6 months.

Some body help me!

proverbial "moron in a hurry"

by 94neverout on Jul 2, 2008 3:10 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

First, accept that you were wrong about Cliff Lee. No use in wishing you were right that he sucked, he doesn’t. At least not right now, and he is going to get some accolades for that, and that is pretty cool. Grady Sizemore also might be having his best season, so thats cool. CC is fun to watch, might as well enjoy that until they tell us he is playing for a different team. At which point we get to drool over our new shiny toys in Buffalo, Akron (hopefully not only Kinston). Enjoy Gutz playing smooth OF defense. Enjoy Shoppach as a real option as a starter in the next year or two or a trade chip (i need to check his more relevant stats since he became the starter, but I know he is hitting .300 with a bunch of doubles a couple HRs).

STOP reading afh4’s fanpost- it has a nice effect for awhile, but its long term side effects (depression) aren’t worth it. APV’s post is a must read, read it, regularly.

Oh, and if that doesn’t work—- www.dawgsbynature.com.

by DaytonDogg on Jul 2, 2008 3:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lots of good advice here.

We all should be enjoying Cliff’s success — it’s not just an on-field comeback, it’s a triumph of the medical staff, and much more than that, a triumph of his own determination not just to persevere but to learn and develop as a pitcher. If I met Cliff Lee tomorrow, I’d tell him that I’m really proud to have him on my team, and I’d admit that I spent all of 2006 calling him mediocre and much of 2007 calling him a dick. Then I’d tell him how impressed I am with him as a person for coming back just to be a solid, decent, major league starter. The fact that he’s a Cy Young candidate is just gravy.

Aaron Laffey is something else to be happy about — and Grady has 19 HR and 19 SB in just 81 games.

by Jay on Jul 2, 2008 4:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank you. Excellent advice on Cliff. Mia Culpa, Cliff. You are awesome. Keep it up. Go for the Cy. I know nothing about baseball. Please let me jump on your bandwagon.

I still need to channel my disappointment somewhere. It was easier in the old days when I could root for Andre Thorton and I had no expectations of team victory. I have never had a year where my expectations were so high and the outcome was so low. I went 100% out of the expect Cleveland to lose mentality. Even 2 years ago when they lost the last 6 games, I was still enjoying a great season.

OMG, I just realized. I’m just like a Yankee fan. I expected my team to win it all. It was a given. Now I just feel dirty.

proverbial "moron in a hurry"

by 94neverout on Jul 3, 2008 8:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What can we say about last night’s tenth inning? First, we watch Casey CRUSH a pitch to send our hopes soaring. Even though we know Blutarski has blown many close games, he has the Sox down to their last out. Up strides a player whose upper body looks Twiggy-ish. We think “don’t walk this guy, because his best stroke can’t tie the game”. Our supposed best against a skeleton of a hitter. Then, moments later, Cabrera is singling in the losing run. It’s only one baseball game, but, from a sports perspective, this is about as close to peering into the abyss as it gets. 10 weeks ago we were dreaming of the playoffs, today, the Indians look like a team without hope or leaders. This is what rock bottom looks like.

by elsandito on Jul 2, 2008 3:26 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As a longtime Cleveland fan, I can tell you that, even as bad as things look right now, there’s a pretty good chance we haven’t reached rock bottom yet.

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Jul 2, 2008 3:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here, here.

If these guys are a true Cleveland sports team, we’ve got a long way to go before it starts to really get bad!

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Jul 2, 2008 3:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

See, this is what I’m talking about.

Yeah, go on ahead, break my heart. You guys got nothin’, nothin’! I can do this for another decade or two, no problem.

Now pass me the hemlock.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jul 2, 2008 4:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

‘It was always: “Socrates, what is truth? Socrates, what is the nature of the good? Socrates, what should I order? Socrates, what are you having?” And not once did anyone ever say: “Socrates, hemlock is poison!” ‘

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Jul 2, 2008 4:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I spent the last few years building up an immunity to hemlock.

by Jay on Jul 2, 2008 4:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

but still avoid those land wars in asia…

by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 2, 2008 5:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

As a response to those who thought Tuesday’s loss represented rock bottom, I give you….

Wednesday’s loss.

Free Andy Marte!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Jul 3, 2008 8:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Haven’t been paying much attention lately, but there’s no way Shelton comes back next year, right? I mean, somebody has to fall on the sword for this, and Wedge is only on strike two.

by maledicta on Jul 2, 2008 6:01 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The only problem is that he will get a pass for our mini rebuild the next two years. if we succeed, then he’s a genius and bought himself another 5 years

by Roger Dorn on Jul 2, 2008 6:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They fired Eddie Murray in the middle of 2005, and we were good that year. I just don’t see how a hitting coach has that much of a buffer. He should have been on the hot-seat coming into this year, given that our offense sucked for major portions of last season, too.

by maledicta on Jul 2, 2008 6:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We certainly were not good for the two months before we fired Murray.

by Jay on Jul 2, 2008 6:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure, and I’m not trying to defend him, but 4 games under .500 at the time isn’t all that bad compared to now.

by maledicta on Jul 2, 2008 7:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ehh .. I think everyone gets a pass this season. If things go like this next year, expect some fall guys to lose jobs by this time next year and Wedges name to be bandied about on “the hot seat” for the second half of 09.

by Toxicadam on Jul 2, 2008 6:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

last week, USA Today Sports Weekly had Wedge as #5 on list of top GMs/managers on the hot seat

the top 4 were GMs: Minaya, Ricciardi, Yost, Colletti

by palcal on Jul 2, 2008 8:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you’ve reached your weekly quota of citing USA Today Sports Weekly as a valid source of info.

by supermarioelia on Jul 3, 2008 10:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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