Game One Hundred: Angels 14, Indians 11
| Highest WPA | Lowest WPA | ||
| Ryan Garko | .187 | Aaron Laffey | -.606 |
| Andy Marte | .104 | Tom Mastny | -.277 |
| Shin-Soo Choo | .102 | David Dellucci | -.092 |
The Indians caught John Lackey at the right time, scoring six runs off him in five innings. Ryan Garko almost instantaneously figured out how to hit again. Andy Marte continued to contribute, reaching base twice in four plate appearances.
But bad pitching and shoddy bullpen management negated all those nice things. Aaron Laffey through four innings had been just as bad as Lackey, but had the lead. He had given up four hits and three runs in the fourth inning, and didn't look long for the game. But Wedge let him go out for the fifth inning. No matter how tenuous, any lead is enough for Wedge to suspend disbelief when a pitcher's win is involved. Mind you, he's evaluated for team wins, not for the health of the starting picthers' egos.
So Laffey came out for the fifth, and the Angels picked up where they had left off. LA had runners on second and third with nobody out when Eric Wedge finally decided that Laffey needed to be taken out. But not before walking Garrett Anderson to load the bases. That being done, he summoned...Tom Mastny... to get out of the jam. Mastny hadn't been used for ten days, and hasn't been effective even when used. But because his best relievers just had to be saved for the late innings (and remember, tomorrow is an off day), the longman was good enough for the jam.You know what happened next.
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I have a dream .. a dream that one day, David Dellucci is no longer contributing negative win shares to our team.
Free at last .. free at last … yadda yadda etc.
by Toxicadam on
Jul 23, 2008 11:46 PM EDT
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I think we know by now that Tom Mastny does not have a bright future as a successful long man that sees action once every 10 days. I think in his time with us, he’s shown that he sucks in this role.
So can we finally just give him a month-long tryout in pressure-packed situations, and then if he sucks we can finally get rid of him?
by supermarioelia on
Jul 23, 2008 11:46 PM EDT
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Why not just find him an inning here and there, increasing the leverage as his success merits? Seems to be working okay for Ed.
by fleerdon on
Jul 23, 2008 11:48 PM EDT
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This is another reasonable strategy. But this once every week stuff….the guy just doesn’t pitch well under those circumstances, SO STOP DOING IT WEDGE
by supermarioelia on
Jul 23, 2008 11:49 PM EDT
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Hello Mario,
I agree with you – Wedge sometimes will go ahead and let relievers sit for 7-10 days at a time, then call upon them to get out of a crucial jam, and most times, they can’t do it.
Now, granted, in this season where a postseason birth is very unlikely, it doesn’t matter, but it does matter in the sense that Wedge has done this even when we’ve been in contention. He doesn’t seem to work all the bullpen pitchers enough in order to keep them sharp. Granted, when our starting staff was going well last year, it’s difficult, but it’s still doable, and it’s his job to find a combination that works, not going with just 3-4 guys in that bullpen, possibly overuse them, then let the other ones get rusty and then falter often when they are finally called upon to get out of a crucial situation.
Unfortunately, the situation with Laffey is not the first time Wedge has done this either – I remember a year or two ago when Paul Byrd was having a rough start, but managed to be tied or have the lead going into the 5th inning. The logical choice would have been to take him out of there and extend the bullpen for that night. Instead, Wedge sent him back out there (and I said at the time, “Wedge is trying to get Byrd the win”), Byrd fares poorly in that 5th inning, Wedge finally sends someone else in to relieve him, but we still lose the lead, and eventually, lose the game.
I too wish that Wedge would consider the best chance for the team to win that game, regardless of whether the starting pitcher goes 5 innings or not – sometimes, it’s not going to happen. And granted, you can’t go to the bullpen every night in the 5th inning, but once in a while is not going to kill your ballclub, and if going to the bullpen in that inning gives you a better chance of winning that game, you have to do it. After all, as we know from the 2005 and 2007 seasons, every game is meaningful, so “tossing away” our best chance to win a game by sending out an ineffective starter to try to get through the 5th inning just because it’s expected of him or because the pitcher would have a chance at a win does not seem like a sound strategy to me, one that has blown up in Wedge’s face on more than one occasion.
Yesterday’s game was just another example of this, and this is something that Wedge must be aware of and avoid when we are back in contention. Overextending the bullpen once in a while will not kill your team, presuming of course you don’t let 2-4 members of your bullpen sit out there for 7-10 days with no work.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on
Jul 24, 2008 7:19 PM EDT
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This idea has been expressed before—that Wedge indulges his starting pitchers by trying to get them wins. I’m sure pitchers appreciate the confidence and all, but I don’t think Wedge is trying to get a win for one of his starters. I think he tries to wring as many possible pitches from his starters as he can. I can’t believe he’s willing to jeopardize a win so one of the starting pitchers gets a W. It’s his style to ride his starters as long as possible. He similarly over-relies on three or four relievers, much to the detriment of others in the bullpen. I think this over-reliance has contributed to Betancourt’s, Borowski’s, Lewis’s and (to a much lesser degree) Perez’s down years. The COT meant overuse for three or four relievers, while the rest of the bullpen sat in the outfield telling jokes and tending the tomato plants. Same thing this year, so Mastny (or Breslow for that matter) can’t be counted on in a game situation. Rafael Perez would have made more sense coming in the fifth. Had he been able to shut down the team and hold the lead, then maybe Tom Mastny could pitch a later inning.
by odradek on
Jul 24, 2008 8:28 PM EDT
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but I don’t think Wedge is trying to get a win for one of his starters. I think he tries to wring as many possible pitches from his starters as he can. I can’t believe he’s willing to jeopardize a win so one of the starting pitchers gets a W. It’s his style to ride his starters as long as possible.
Very strongly agree with this.
by Jay on
Jul 24, 2008 11:27 PM EDT
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Perhaps it’s more Wedge trying to wring more innings from his starter. But either way, if you’re trying to win the game, and with an off-day tomorrow, you don’t send Laffey out for the fifth inning. Now if the Indians were already down 4 or 5, I could understand it, but they were ahead a run. Even if Mastny was your next guy in, bring him in to start the inning.
by Ryan on
Jul 25, 2008 9:34 AM EDT
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That may be, but anecdotally I see similar situations where he’ll pull the starter with the lead but leave him in there if tied or down by one. I don’t think it’s solely to get the win, but I think it’s a big factor.
My theory is that he believes that helps in the long run, as starters will push themselves to keep the score where it is because they know he’ll leave them in there. This is a big deal to starters, who still look at that win column as the most important thing. It’s like a lot of things in baseball – it’s easy to say that you wouldn’t do that from afar, or you would do it differently if you were playing a simulation game. But it’s not so easy to do that when you’re with guys 7-8 months a year.
Perez? The same guy who threw 2 2/3 innings 17 hours before? I’m quite sure he was unavailable.
Also, even if Perez was rested and you warmed him up in the 5th, what would’ve happened if Laffey had thrown a double play ball and gotten out of the inning quickly. Would you then warm up Perez again an hour later when you might’ve needed him again?
The way Mastny has pitched over the last year-plus, he can’t be counted on in any situation.
by TribeJay on
Jul 24, 2008 11:54 PM EDT
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I totally agree about Mastny, especially after he hadn’t pitched in so long. And I forgot that Perez had pitched the day before. But I just meant it was a critical moment in the game. If the Tribe could have somehow gotten out of the inning, the complexion of the game would have been much different. The situation called for the best available reliever, I think. Tom Seaver said something like there are typically three critical outs in a ballgame (I may have the number wrong, but is is small). Those were the ones where he would lay it all out.
I also agree with you about pushing the pitchers. Wins are what factor in contracts, just like home runs. Psychologically it’s good to show faith in them. But I don’t think Wedge is concerned with the starters getting a win. If it happens, great.
by odradek on
Jul 25, 2008 11:06 PM EDT
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Should we start looking at Raffy Perez as Casey Blake?
Seriously though, you have a point. There’s no real reason to go for the win anymore. I’d like to see Mastny every other day.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jul 24, 2008 12:08 AM EDT
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There’s no real reason to go for the win anymore.
And that’s why Laffey came back out.
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 12:10 AM EDT
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Hello Andrew,
I can see why Laffey came back out here, but it’s important to note that Wedge has also done this when we’ve been in contention (note the Paul Byrd reference in my post above, which I believe was during the 2007 season, or at least when we still in contention during 2006), and under those circumstances when we are in contention, I cannot believe that sending out an ineffective starter who’s barely managed through 4 innings is going to give you the best chance to win the ballgame.
It seems unlikely to me that a starter who has struggled for the better part of 4 innings is all of a sudden going to find it in the 5th inning. I could see a starter struggling the first inning, maybe the second inning, and then finding it at times, but not struggling through the better part of 4 innings and then finding it – that seems unlikely in my opinion.
Therefore, in this season, you’re right – it really doesn’t matter much, but if Wedge keeps doing this when we’re in contention, and he has done it in past seasons when we’ve been in contention, then it becomes a problem that needs to be addressed and corrected.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on
Jul 24, 2008 7:23 PM EDT
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I don’t even know why we bother with starting our starters. In front of everybody but Lee, have relievers throw the first and second, bring the starter in for the third. Make a schedule up. Everybody throws!
by fleerdon on
Jul 24, 2008 12:13 AM EDT
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Yea … Mastny was really good as a starter this year too.
(sidenote, that was the same day as King Justin Day, right?)
Dear Mr. Sabean, I hear you have a reputation of being stupid. Want to deal Lincecum or Cain? You can pick THREE of these 4 players for either: Borowski, Dellucci, Blake, Byrd.
by westbrook on
Jul 24, 2008 1:45 AM EDT
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Interesting point from Marte’s dad … Mastny has been in largely the same boat as Marte. He got a shot in late 2006, did pretty well with it. SInce then, he has never really been given a serious opportunity to succeed as a significant contributor.
by Jay on
Jul 24, 2008 4:12 PM EDT
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Of course, if it were really his pitchers’ egos Wedge was concerned about, he would’ve given the situation to somebody besides Mastny … unless he was convinced that anybody he brought in was going to get shelled, in which case, may as well be the guy who can chalk it up to rust. This is genuinely the most sensible explanation I can muster.
by fleerdon on
Jul 23, 2008 11:46 PM EDT
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As I think about it, the strategery may actually have been, “Tom needs work. Work, Tom; work. Nobody cares.” This makes more sense than my previous comment, but I’m not sure that makes me hope it’s true.
And I may be ruling out the possibility that Wedge decided Mastny could take the heat based on his post-season performance.
by fleerdon on
Jul 23, 2008 11:57 PM EDT
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Or it could just be that the Tribe hasn’t had a manager that could properly manage a pitching staff in recent memory.
by FredOx on
Jul 23, 2008 11:58 PM EDT
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It’s hard to quibble with Wedge’s handling of the staff last season.
by Jay on
Jul 24, 2008 4:13 PM EDT
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Actually, while I wouldn’t quibble with the results, I would have preferred that three relievers not throw more than 60 innings each last year. It’s not necessarily a problem, as the Cubs, D-Backs and Angels did the same, but it’s not always necessary, either.
by FredOx on
Jul 24, 2008 4:28 PM EDT
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Hello FredOx,
That would be my one concern about Wedge’s handling of the bullpen last season.
Granted, I can understand his trusting the “Circle of Trust” relievers more in their ability to get outs than Mastny, Fultz, etc., but at the same time, I’m thinking that the overuse of those guys could be affecting them this season, and could be a major reason why we fell off so much this year.
Borowski’s shoulder was basically done with, resulting in a loss of velocity and command.
Betancourt is also showing less velocity and less command, and not just from his excellent 2007 season, but even from prior seasons – to my knowledge, he’s never been this erratic or unreliable before in any of his previous seasons (the closest was 2004 when he was overused to compensate for that erratic bullpen, and he eventually went down with an injury).
Perez was a bit erratic at the beginning of the year, but has arguably been the closest to his 2007 form – in terms of velocity, command, and performance.
Lewis still isn’t throwing as hard as he was last season (I still don’t see him getting to or over 90 MPH very often, which he was doing regularly last year, even getting up to 93-95 MPH on several occasions) – he’s been throwing mostly 87-89 MPH with an occasional 90-91 MPH mixed in.
As I’ve said before, I think the overuse last season has really affected Betancourt and Lewis, and I would strongly consider shutting them down before the end of the season. There’s no need to keep throwing them out there in a season that will end up under .500 and when neither seems to be 100%. I probably wouldn’t throw Perez the whole season either, though I might let him throw longer than the other two, only because he has bounced back to some extent, but probably by late August/early September, I’d shut him down also.
This way, you can more fully evaluate Mujica, Mastny, Kobayashi, Stevens, Sipp (if he is ready to contribute this year, though he probably won’t be 100% until next year, so perhaps not Sipp), Buzachero, Rincon, Bullington, Jackson, etc. And, Wedge will be required to use them on a regular basis – that’s the only way you’re going to know whether these guys can actually contribute long-term – throwing them out there once or twice every 7-10 guys is not going to lead to a proper evaluation of these guys, an evaluation that needs to be done in terms of next year’s bullpen. I don’t know who could perform consistently well only pitching once or twice every 7-10 days – very few could.
Therefore, to properly evaluate Mastny and the others, start using them regularly. If they blow up, at least you know they can’t help you long-term, and in this season where we’re not going anywhere anyway, the losses won’t hurt as much (and would boost our Draft Position on top of it).
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on
Jul 24, 2008 7:35 PM EDT
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I will always remember Mastny’s postseason performance. That doesn’t make him a good pitcher though.
Dear Mr. Sabean, I hear you have a reputation of being stupid. Want to deal Lincecum or Cain? You can pick THREE of these 4 players for either: Borowski, Dellucci, Blake, Byrd.
by westbrook on
Jul 24, 2008 1:47 AM EDT
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If it is just a matter of work, and victory is irrelevant, why pinch hit Casey for Marte?
by odradek on
Jul 24, 2008 6:06 PM EDT
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Suggesting, perhaps, the skipper’s answer to the question “is victory irrelevant?” Pinch-hitting Blake makes perfect sense if you’re trying to win the game, and no sense at all if you’re trying to decide whether Marte is in the mix for Opening Day 2009.
by FredOx on
Jul 25, 2008 12:47 PM EDT
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CC with his 3rd straight complete game. Think the Brewers will sweeten the trade out of gratitude?
by supermarioelia on
Jul 23, 2008 11:48 PM EDT
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Marty the Moose would be a clear upgrade over Slider.
by Toxicadam on
Jul 23, 2008 11:52 PM EDT
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Very few mascots would NOT be an upgrade over Slider. I’m still waiting for the day, by the way, when the team announces a new partnership with White Castle and Slider becomes Slyder, with his Indians uniform plastered with White Castle logos and featuring Slyder eating contests between innings.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on
Jul 24, 2008 8:32 AM EDT
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Yeah, but when is Marty the Moose’s birthday?
I did a Google image search for "Andy Marte." It turned up zero results.
by emd2k3 on
Jul 24, 2008 3:49 PM EDT
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Whenever he wants it to be. He’s a moose. Are you going to tell him it’s not his birthday? I’m not. He’s a moose.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on
Jul 24, 2008 4:27 PM EDT
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I was very conflicted in that game. CC looked like he might have a no-hitter, but I used to live in STL, and root for the Cards as a secondary rooting interest. Bah.
by FredOx on
Jul 23, 2008 11:57 PM EDT
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Also, I’m kinda glad we sucked again these past two games. For a while there we were getting perilously close to keeping Blake for a stretch run. Nope, we actually suck, let’s regroup.
by supermarioelia on
Jul 24, 2008 12:12 AM EDT
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It’s time. To blow up this team. In its entirety. Now.
by fleerdon on
Jul 24, 2008 12:29 AM EDT
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Not that this speeds up dealmaking, but if a deal was already in place today’s off day would be the perfect time to announce it.
So I guess let’s keep our ears perked. Of course I’m unavailable most of the day.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jul 24, 2008 8:02 AM EDT
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Are you going to be part of the deal? Casey and a FTBNL?
by FredOx on
Jul 24, 2008 9:11 AM EDT
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My team after the carnage, for this year only, would be: C) Kelly Shopach. 1B) Michael Aubrey. 2B) Josh Barfield. 3B) Andy Marte. SS) Asdrubel Cabrera. OF) Ben Francisco, Grady Sizemore, Shin Su Choo, Franklin Guitierrez. DH) Ryan Garko. The Starters: Jake Westbrooke, Fausto Carmona, Cliff Lee, Aaron Laffey, Jeremy Sowers.Putting aside the “creeative speling” of the players, that’s remarkably close to what we actually had on the field yesterday.
by FredOx on
Jul 24, 2008 9:28 AM EDT
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I think the post was written back in May, while Westbrook was either in the rotation or just coming off the DL.
by Ryan on
Jul 24, 2008 12:46 PM EDT
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Which reminds me of a question i’ve been meaning to ask:
>> Would some team desperate for a #5 starter give us something half-decent for Ginter?
Dear Mr. Sabean, I hear you have a reputation of being stupid. Want to deal Lincecum or Cain? You can pick THREE of these 4 players for either: Borowski, Dellucci, Blake, Byrd.
by westbrook on
Jul 24, 2008 1:50 AM EDT
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Anybody else think that Laffey, and not Ginter, could be the starter that Fausto replaces in the rotation, given the fact that Laffey is has obviously fallen on hard times and may benefit from a little confidence boost in Buffalo?
by The DiaTriber on
Jul 24, 2008 9:55 AM EDT
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I would not be surprised at all. It’s kind of what I’m expecting. Weren’t there some comments in today’s PD from Wedge that hinted at that? (and I don’t mean to suggest that Ginter actually is in anyway a long-term valuable commodity to the Tribe – he’s almost the definition of replacement level).
by APV on
Jul 24, 2008 10:05 AM EDT
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Wedge said a decision probably wouldn’t be made until Friday night. The Indians are off Thursday.“He’s done a good job for us,” Wedge said of Ginter. “He went out Tuesday and gave up three runs in six innings against a great team.”
The link also recaps the BLC military service thing, which doesn’t sound very good
by APV on
Jul 24, 2008 10:10 AM EDT
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maybe we can just get Choo and Caleb Campbell to have an organized fisticuff and call it even.
by Brick. on
Jul 24, 2008 10:26 AM EDT
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I was thinking this even before last night’s start. This makes four trainwrecks in five starts, 8.37 ERA — and let’s not forget those five unearned runs, for a tasty 10.27 RA.
There’s a service time issue, too — his walk year gets pushed back from 2013 to 2014 if he spends just 41 more days in the minors this year. Wouldn’t be the worst plan to let him finish the season in Buffalo, then either shut him down for innings or maybe give him two more big-league starts for confidence in late September.
by Jay on
Jul 24, 2008 4:21 PM EDT
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From a business standpoint pushing back his walk year is nice. But what public reason would the team have for sending Laffey down? For basically a year he’s succeeded against major league hitting. What’s important is that we’re not going anywhere fast, so it’s no detriment to the team to let him figure it out in the majors. Unless this whole thing is just a confidence issue.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jul 24, 2008 4:44 PM EDT
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four trainwrecks in five starts, 8.37 ERA
by Brick. on
Jul 24, 2008 4:52 PM EDT
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Right. He’s got stuff to work on. But since we know he can do it against major leaguers, let him figure it out against major leaguers instead of kids and career AAAA guys. In a lost season, I don’t see why it’s important to remove him.
It’s kind of like that start when Sowers walked and struck out 8 guys. It was like a spring training start—He seemed to be approaching at-bats differently. Just go out there with the strategy we gave you, and stick to it. We’ll worry about the results in 2009.
I’m not sure I’m making this argument properly, but it makes sense to me.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jul 24, 2008 5:00 PM EDT
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In a lost season, I don’t see why it’s important to remove him
There’s a service time issue, too — his walk year gets pushed back from 2013 to 2014 if he spends just 41 more days in the minors this year.
by Brick. on
Jul 24, 2008 5:05 PM EDT
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From a business standpoint pushing back his walk year is nice. But what public reason would the team have for sending Laffey down?
Is the team going to say, “Well, we want Laffey to work on his stuff in AAA mainly so we can get an extra cheap year out of him”?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jul 24, 2008 5:08 PM EDT
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the public reason is he can’t pitch at the moment…what’s so hard about that?
by APV on
Jul 24, 2008 5:09 PM EDT
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Laffey is 23. “Because he sucks right now” is a perfectly valid public reason to send him down.
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 5:09 PM EDT
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This is going to keep circling a drain, but I just don’t see how Laffey sucking hurts the 2008 Indians. Get it figured out in the majors if the wins don’t matter, IMO. I don’t view Ginter playing any important role on this team.
Aaaanyway I’m not sure it matters. Actually I’m pretty sure it doesn’t. If beating up on AAA hitters is a confidence boost, I guess that’s good enough for me. I really hope Laffey doesn’t turn into Sowers.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jul 24, 2008 5:14 PM EDT
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Because in the majors he’s demoralizing our other young talent and overtaxing one of our most valuable assets, Rafael Perez.
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 5:22 PM EDT
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Nick, you are simply over-thinking this.
Young pitcher, less than a year of service time, sucks for a month.
You demote him, there is no public outcry. There doesn’t need to be any other reason.
If we didn’t demote him, then people might say, oh, that’s because we’re not contending anyway.
But if we did demote him, they wouldn’t say anything at all.
by Jay on
Jul 24, 2008 11:30 PM EDT
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I probably am overthinking it.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jul 24, 2008 11:51 PM EDT
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Why do off days always seem to follow bad losses these days?
by APV on
Jul 24, 2008 10:12 AM EDT
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Given the number of bad losses these days, probability suggests that’s where off days would fall. Why does my left ear seem to itch after bad Dellucci at bats these days?
by FredOx on
Jul 24, 2008 11:01 AM EDT
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CST rules. Everything in my life happens before it does in yours. Your going to die at least an hour after me. I’ll never have to miss you.
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 11:34 AM EDT
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You’re not on CDT?
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on
Jul 24, 2008 12:01 PM EDT
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Daylight (as in Daylight Savings Time).
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on
Jul 24, 2008 12:26 PM EDT
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Huh. So the Eastern is “Standard” but the Central is “Daylight”?
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 12:37 PM EDT
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I guess I should just look this up on wikipedia.
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 12:54 PM EDT
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Here ya go:
In the United States and Canada, this time zone is generally called Eastern Time (ET). Specifically, it is Eastern Standard Time (EST) when observing standard time (Winter), and Eastern Daylight Time (EDT) when observing daylight saving time (Summer).
by Ryan on
Jul 24, 2008 1:03 PM EDT
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mommy, mommy… i learned something today while reading the indians blog.
Dear Mr. Sabean, I hear you have a reputation of being stupid. Want to deal Lincecum or Cain? You can pick THREE of these 4 players for either: Borowski, Dellucci, Blake, Byrd.
by westbrook on
Jul 24, 2008 1:07 PM EDT
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Summer now extends from early March to early November
by palcal on
Jul 24, 2008 2:47 PM EDT
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Welcome to the off day thread.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on
Jul 24, 2008 3:04 PM EDT
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oh no! we’re facing the dreaded Dan Reichert!
by APV on
Jul 24, 2008 11:30 AM EDT
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Reichert’s given up three hits and one run through five, although two were for extra bases, including a solo shot by Whitney. LaPorta is 0-for-2 so far, with a GIDP and a popup. SLG at Akron now .300 (obviously not indicative of his ability).
by FredOx on
Jul 24, 2008 1:28 PM EDT
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While remaining unoptimistic, they should move Crowe up. Everyone in Buffalo sucks so it’s not like it would be hard to make room.
My biggest complaint with the Indians’ minor league development is that they don’t force guys into age appropriate leagues quickly enough. I don’t mind them waiting on a guy like Kelvin but with Crowe, I favor aggressive promotion if he shows even a hint of mastering a league. He’s OPSing .881 and is hitting .342 with 4 XBH over his last ten. Let’s go, Shap.
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 1:34 PM EDT
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Here’s what I don’t understand. I’ve looked through a few other teams AA and AAA rosters in order to see what potentially attractive trade targets they have. And, like Buffalo, there are a lot of AAA rosters made up entirely of guys aged 28-32, while the same organization has a AA roster made of 22-26 year olds. Does a player need to succeed in AAA before going to the majors?
by APV on
Jul 24, 2008 1:44 PM EDT
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I know we’ve talked about this a lot, and it’s certainly bizarre.
My instincts say yes; that’s where we send major leaguers who are struggling (Astro) and I can’t remember the last time we jumped a guy straight from AA. On top of that, we’ve got a host of guys like Toreagas who can’t scratch it in AAA and can in AA.
I dunno. Is the pay rate different?
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 1:50 PM EDT
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but Cabrera really jumped to Cleveland from AA (yes – I know he spent 2006 in AAA, but in 2007 he only spent 9 games in Buffalo on the way to Cleveland from Akron). Laffey had 25 starts at AA, 15 at AAA. I don’t know…
by APV on
Jul 24, 2008 1:55 PM EDT
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Victor went straight from AA to a September call-up his first year in the bigs.
by FredOx on
Jul 24, 2008 1:57 PM EDT
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Well, Cabrera I think of as a special case.
I dunno. It seems clear to me that the league is harder. Maybe it’s evolved into a weird environment for young kids, due to the number of organizational soldiers populating it, so that the marginal rise in competition isn’t worth the strange socialization.
That doesn’t seem like a good explanation.
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 1:57 PM EDT
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It definitely seems to be the case that AA is populated with guys on the way up while AAA seems to have a lot more guys on the way down.
by APV on
Jul 24, 2008 2:01 PM EDT
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Hello Andrew,
Regarding the pay rate, I’m not entirely sure, but I think AAAers can make around $100K or more, even if they aren’t great ballplayers.
AAers, if I remember correctly, get something like $2500/month, so that’s like $30K a year.
I heard this a while ago, and I’m not sure I remember it correctly, but essentially, AAAers can make 6 figures a year – that’s pretty much unheard of for players playing in AA.
Whether that has anything to do it, I’m not sure, but it seems a lot of organizations are willing to jump their heralded prospects up either directly from AA or with very little time in AAA. Many organizations seem to want to stockpile veterans with their AAA farm clubs, probably for depth-purposes, especially in case of injury, since trying to find a quick, effective replacement is often more difficult with the salary issues and trade prices nowadays.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on
Jul 24, 2008 7:43 PM EDT
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FWIW, the Braves do the AA -> MLB thing ALL the time. Sometimes it works out (McCann) sometimes it doesn’t (Francoeur)
by gte619n on
Jul 24, 2008 2:21 PM EDT
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B-Ref is awesome. It tells me the average age of players in the International League (AAA) is 27.3. In the PCL (AAA) it’s 27.0-27.1 (hitters-pitchers). In the Eastern League (AA) it’s 24.6-24.7. Southern League (AA) and Texas League (AA) are 24.5-24.6 and 24.5-24.1. That’s a big difference between AA and AAA. Compare that with the difference between the A+ leagues (22.9, 22.8, 23.1) and AA. I don’t know what it means, but it seems to mean something.
by APV on
Jul 24, 2008 1:52 PM EDT
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How’d you get it to return those numbers?
Perhaps more pressingly, is there a way to (without paying for the additional service) get the average line for like an AL SS? An IL 1B?
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 1:56 PM EDT
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I just went to each league page on the minors site. Scroll down all the way to the bottom and the number is there for you. Don’t know about the rest.
by APV on
Jul 24, 2008 2:01 PM EDT
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Matt just K’d
Alright, the Altoona announcer just ran it down. I feel a bit better about LaPorta now. In the last two weeks:
-Traded for CC
-Played in Futures at Yankee Stadium
-Selected for Olympic Team (leaving for China next week)
-Grandfather dies, flies home for funeral
-Closing on house with fiance
I can see why he might not have great focus.
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 1:44 PM EDT
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Yea, every now and then there is a human element to these androids
by Roger Dorn on
Jul 24, 2008 1:45 PM EDT
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We need to start recruiting from the android league. Or maybe start to draft guys that were raised in orphanages so family deaths cannot hinder their development.
Indians need to hire me, I’m “think outside of the box” guy.
by Toxicadam on
Jul 24, 2008 1:47 PM EDT
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Androids? I always thought ballplayers were anthropomorphic numbers. But then I don’t watch games.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jul 24, 2008 3:06 PM EDT
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Wait, you can watch the games? I thought there was a deterministic game outcome algorithm inside everybody’s laptop and we were all just watching that.
by mrich on
Jul 24, 2008 10:06 PM EDT
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Olympic team will be playing Canada the first weekend of August at Durham
by palcal on
Jul 24, 2008 2:40 PM EDT
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So, don’t call up LaPorta if there are midges at the park, or what?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jul 24, 2008 3:06 PM EDT
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Fiancee? Great.
Is her name Amy?
I did a Google image search for "Andy Marte." It turned up zero results.
by emd2k3 on
Jul 24, 2008 3:53 PM EDT
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More importantly, where are they buying a house. It better be in Westlake.
by NickFantana on
Jul 24, 2008 3:56 PM EDT
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Travis lives in River and shares a Pilates instructor with my mom.
by joeee on
Jul 24, 2008 4:25 PM EDT
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The Pilates broke Pronk. FIRE THE PILATES INSTRUCTOR.
by FredOx on
Jul 24, 2008 4:36 PM EDT
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Hello Andrew,
Thanks for the info. – good to know.
One other thing – Akron’s ballpark is not as conducive to HRs as Huntsville is:
According to the BaseballThinkFactory, these were the 2006 numbers (don’t know if the 2007 numbers have been posted – I couldn’t find them in a quick search):
Akron – 0.90
Huntsville – 1.28
Ironically, Canal Park is more conducive to giving up hits and doubles, as shown here:
H 2B
Akron – 1.09 1.21
Huntsville – 0.99 0.92
Over a 3-year period (2004-2006), again, Canal Park suppresses HR power more than Huntsville’s stadium does:
HR H 2B
Akron 0.84 0.96 1.05
Huntsville 1.24 1.01 0.87
The doubles are clearly in Akron’s favor, but the hits have fluctuated over a 3-year span, almost being close to even over that time span.
Therefore, the dropoff in power (SLG) from LaPorta is probably a combination of adjusting to a new league, the dimensions and characteristics of a new ballpark that doesn’t favor HRs like his old ballpark, and the fact he has a lot on his plate right now.
He’ll likely rebound in time, though we may not really see it until next year in the Indians’ organization, being that he’ll leave for China soon and won’t return until close to the end of the Minor League season (though if Akron reaches the postseason, he may still get a decent to good number of ABs in the Indians’ system this season).
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on
Jul 24, 2008 7:52 PM EDT
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Whoops – sorry about the formatting – hopefully, it’s easy enough to follow.
Also, here is that link where I got those numbers from – sorry for not posting it in the last post.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on
Jul 24, 2008 7:53 PM EDT
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One problem: LaPorta’s OPS in 5 games at Canal Park is .721. His OPS in 6 games on the road is .400. Five of those games were in Altoona, which is better for HR than Akron is, but not as good as Huntsville, with the sixth in Reading, which is more HR-happy than any of them (and the park where LaPorta hit his sole Eastern League HR). I’d say the “problem” with LaPorta is (1) SSS and (2) the Other Stuff.
by FredOx on
Jul 25, 2008 1:06 PM EDT
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“I don’t like to talk about power numbers with young players,” said manager Eric Wedge, “but I think Choo and Ben Francisco can be run producers in the big leagues.”
Great, Eric. What else do you “think”?
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 11:12 AM EDT
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That Dellucci deserves to hit second on a major league team. That Ryan Garko can grit his way through it. That with a little bit of faith and some magic fairy dust, We Can Do It.
by FredOx on
Jul 24, 2008 1:00 PM EDT
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I am feeling very impatient. I’m trying to work on papers and i just want Blake to get traded right now so i can take my mind of it.
¡Free Chan Perry!
by TheVanillaGorilla on
Jul 24, 2008 2:21 PM EDT
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any lead is enough for Wedge to dispend belief when a pitcher’s win is involved
I’m pretty sure “dispend” isn’t a word, but we should do it to Wedge anyway.
DISPEND WEDGE!
by JulioBernazard on
Jul 24, 2008 2:58 PM EDT
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My apologies, Ryan. It apparently means “To spend; to squander.”
So Wedge dispended the lead by keeping Laff in too long.
by JulioBernazard on
Jul 24, 2008 3:01 PM EDT
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Dispend \Dis*pend”\, v. t. [OF. despendre, L. dispendere to weigh out, dispense; dis- + pendere to weigh. See Pension, Spend, and cf. Dispense.]Link
To spend; to lay out; to expend. [Obs.]—Spenser.
[1913 Webster]
by FredOx on
Jul 24, 2008 3:03 PM EDT
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right., but I haven’t seen any definitions where it means “suspend.”
by JulioBernazard on
Jul 24, 2008 3:06 PM EDT
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Maybe “suspend disbelief”? The “willing suspension of disbelief,” as S.T. Coleridge, noted pitching coach, had it? Why is the Ancient Mariner like a bad shortstop? He stoppeth one of three.
by odradek on
Jul 24, 2008 6:13 PM EDT
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I’ve fixed it – I couldn’t think of the phrase initially, and somehow ‘dispend’ crept into my mind.
by Ryan on
Jul 25, 2008 9:28 AM EDT
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could this be the new FE WEE?
Dear Mr. Sabean, I hear you have a reputation of being stupid. Want to deal Lincecum or Cain? You can pick THREE of these 4 players for either: Borowski, Dellucci, Blake, Byrd.
by westbrook on
Jul 24, 2008 3:33 PM EDT
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Couple of things.
First, I’m surprised nobody has figured out the obvious with Dellucci. They’re playing him because they’re hoping that he’ll suddenly “find it” and finish with a hot last two months. That would give them the opportunity to deal him in the offseason and possibly only eat half his 2009 salary. DFA equates to selling at the absolute low-point, and while sometimes it’s the right move, it’s a little different when you’re not contending anyway and there’s a whole year left on the contract.
Second, the Crowe promotion thing Andrew brought up. People complain about this all the time, but it’s always based on a totally superficial look at the situation. Look more closely, and the criticism falls apart. Here’s Crowe’s situation:
1. Struggled with Double-A for two years.
2. Now has good numbers, though a bit BABIP-inflated.
3. Has been injured off and on for years.
4. Just went on the DL a few weeks ago (July 1) for 16 days.
5. Just came off the DL one week ago.
6. Went 4-for-24 with a 408 OPS in his first six games.
7. Then had exactly two good games.
8. Andrew complains that they’re holding him back.
Common sense says, you don’t promote a guy right after he comes off the DL. You wait, you observe, you evaluate. It’s a good guess he didn’t even look all that healthy in those first six games.
So there’s always a combination of reasons for things. It’s never just about one player or one spot, and of course health counts along with performance.
by Jay on
Jul 24, 2008 4:30 PM EDT
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Right on both points, although Dellucci is far more likely to not find “it”, continue to suck eggs and not increase his trade value. It wouldn’t decrease his trade value, either, but it could take playing time away from someone we want to evaluate for 2009 and beyond. I don’t believe there is a candidate for that role right now, however.
Crowe needs to finish the year in Akron. If he stays healthy and produces at a sustained pace, we can talk.
It’s all just looking for a silver lining in an increasingly black cloud.
by FredOx on
Jul 24, 2008 4:42 PM EDT
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I’m not saying I am in line with common sense. I’m tired of the methodology with these “accomplished” college players and I don’t think it’s working.
I’m sick of it. Why don’t we just push him and see what happens? I thought they should’ve promoted him as soon as he looked competent at all in Akron. What are we going to do? Damage his burgeoning career?
In short, I like what they did with Wyatt Toregas. I’m not saying it’s why he’s raking in AA but I like the strategy on light examination. Push these 24+ year old guys until they can’t perform and then drop them back. Don’t wait around for them to earn these stupid promotions.
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 5:08 PM EDT
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I agree with this. I don’t see the reason for keeping Crowe and Whitney at AA. Have they earned a promotion to AAA….maybe, maybe not. Is there anything to lose in promoting them, though?...not really. Is it more worthwhile to be giving Ryan Mulhern ABs?
by APV on
Jul 24, 2008 5:12 PM EDT
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the only guy who has earned anything in this organization is Ryan Goleski.
by Brick. on
Jul 24, 2008 5:42 PM EDT
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No offense to Goleski, but the only thing he has earned recently is a demotion to High-A, where he is hitless with one walk.
Yes, he was demoted to High-A after doing next-to-nothing at AA Akron this season. Therefore, I think any chance he had of making it in this organization after the fallout from the Rule 5 Draft just went up in smoke. I think he is officially an “organization” guy now.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on
Jul 24, 2008 8:01 PM EDT
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i didn’t even know that. classic. probably should have sold him to oakland for 25K
by Brick. on
Jul 24, 2008 8:06 PM EDT
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He’s only been demoted for a few weeks until LaPorta leaves. There’s just a logjam. He’ll be back up week after next or whatever.
Not that that makes him useful.
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 10:25 PM EDT
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Regardless, it’s still quite a message to send the guy. If my employer sent me to beautiful Kinston, NC for several weeks I don’t think I’d be looking to stick around.
by mrich on
Jul 24, 2008 10:40 PM EDT
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You don’t normally have to go to work in Akron.
by afh4 on
Jul 24, 2008 11:08 PM EDT
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Hello APV,
Don’t forget, Mulhern is no longer holding them back – he’s no longer in the organization, remember? He was traded along with Dan Reichert to the Pirates for future considerations or cash (don’t remember which).
Just a clarification – however, I know what you mean. I’m still surprised Jason Cooper is still with this organization – I keep thinking he’s holding back somebody, like Crowe, though admittedly, Crowe may not have been ready for AAA. But when he and Constanza are putting up decent to solid seasons at AA Akron, you might as well find out if they have some future (even as a utility guy or backup outfielder) by promoting them to AAA. After all, neither of them are particularly young (they’ll both turn 25-YO after this season is over).
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on
Jul 24, 2008 8:00 PM EDT
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I wasn’t saying that it would be wrong to promote him to Buffalo. I was only saying that it’s ridiculous to complain about his not being promoted, one week removed from the DL, and two days removed from hitting like crap for a full week.
You’re sick of it? Let’s have some examples. Who are these college players who haven’t been pushed?
by Jay on
Jul 24, 2008 11:34 PM EDT
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What’s so ridiculous about thinking they ought to promote a guy and then 6 hours later they promote him? I have trouble seeing the absurdity. My complaint was that the Indians have, at times, dragged their feet about moving these sorts of guys.
I wish Snyder had started 2006 in Buffalo. I wish Whitney had already been moved to Buffalo. I wish Stephen Head was already in Buffalo. I wish Goleski was just throw into the fire in Buffalo.
Do they need to move all three of those guys up at once? No. That’s a terrible idea. But why not at least one? Buffalo is a wasteland right now. Couldn’t we take advantage of that and just put some of these way to old guys into the highest developmental league we have and see what happens? These gentlemen are valueless where they are but if they can go to Buffalo and put together a good half season, all the sudden they have vague value not only to the Indians but also on the trade market.
As Adam said, what do we have to lose?
I wish MIcheal Aubrey had played more than 300 games in the Indians system. 300! Isn’t that crazy?
More than anything, I wish someone would tell me what the point of AAA is. It’s clearly not the next developmental step when you look at the kind of players populating the rosters; I want to know how much different the Indians think Buffalo is from Akron. I want Akron to Buffalo MLEs.
by afh4 on
Jul 25, 2008 9:16 AM EDT
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The purpose of the Triple-A club is to hold guys who are ready to step into the big-league club if necessary. That is incompatible with “challenging” guys who have been mediocre performers at a lower level.
In other words, it isn’t for Whitney, it’s for Mulhern. Crowe has been promoted in part because he’s become a credible depth option, possibly even a replacement-level player.
by Jay on
Jul 25, 2008 10:12 AM EDT
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Does Buffalo have to be that? I mean that question seriously-is there something intrinsic in the AAA system that makes the clubs that?
Because if the league’s better, which it pretty clearly is, then why can’t it be used for challenging guys?
by afh4 on
Jul 25, 2008 5:04 PM EDT
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For the guys who are most major league-ready, is there a better place than Triple-A for them to be kept sharp, remaining as major league-ready as possible?
Your idea is pretty arbitrary. Why not send all the lefthanders in the whole system to Buffalo, regardless of age and skill?
by Jay on
Jul 25, 2008 5:44 PM EDT
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Are we really keeping Jason Cooper particularly sharp for a reason?
I don’t think it’s anywhere near that arbitrary. Challenge guys who were formally considered high ceiling and have never had an impressive age-appropriate season. I’ll admit that it’s an attempt to try to conjure value where there’s none but I don’t think it’s arbitrary.
by afh4 on
Jul 26, 2008 1:25 AM EDT
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Re: Jason Cooper, good point … but maybe we’re not looking closely enough at the situation. Maybe Jason Cooper really is a lot closer to the big-league roster than we’d think — after all, we saw Aubrey, Snyder and Velandia this season, and that was before we blew up the season.
Thing is, you’re talking about guys who were never considered high-ceiling.
by Jay on
Jul 27, 2008 12:16 PM EDT
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Regarding Dellucci: it isn’t obvious to me what the Indians hope to accomplish by running him out there every day. Is it really about a long-shot hope that they will have eat only half of his 2009 salary (a savings of 2 million dollars)? This is an organization with a reputation for taking on money in deals to acquire the best possible prospects. They have difficult decisions coming up regarding several players (e.g., Marte, Gootz, Francisco) who lose ABs each day DD is in the lineup. Isn’t the additional evaluation time of these guys worth 2 million bucks?
by Jeffrey R on
Jul 24, 2008 5:30 PM EDT
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I dispute that Francisco’s going to present a difficult decision for them. If he keeps playing about the way he’s been playing, he’s a decent reserve outfielder and a borderline starter. He’s got an option left, and at this point in his career, I don’t think the Indians hesitate to use it if they have to.
by fleerdon on
Jul 24, 2008 6:51 PM EDT
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Not taking on money in deals, just being willing to keep paying the salary of the players they’re sending over.
Dellucci is also someone they want to evaluate.
by Jay on
Jul 24, 2008 11:35 PM EDT
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But Dellucci is 34 and, excepting April 2008, has consistently posted poor numbers each month he has been in Cleveland. His VORP on the season is -1.2. He’s been awful, he hasn’t shown signs of improvement, and I think it is difficult to make a strong case that he’ll be a valuable member of the team going forward.
The Indians have a slew of questions going forward into next year: Can Marte hit enough to be a regular 3B? Are Gootz and Francisco anything more than fourth outfielders? What should be expected of Garko next year? They sacrifice a little bit of data on these guys each time Dellucci is inserted into the lineup. I really am perplexed. Maybe they are just hoping to recoup a bit of his salary in a trade, or hoping that he’ll turn things around and contribute next year, but continuing to play him seems like a mistake to me.
by Jeffrey R on
Jul 25, 2008 8:36 AM EDT
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I don’t really disagree, I’m just giving what to me seems like the most credible explanation. They aren’t playing DD for no reason, it’s just not a reason that everyone will agree with.
I don’t think there is a crying need to evaluate Gutierrez and Francisco. I don’t think Gutierrez could do anything over the next nine weeks to take himself out of their plans entirely or to win back the benefit of the doubt as an everyday player. Francisco also isn’t going to be considered a key cog entering 2009 and has an option remaining. It’s Choo that they really need to see the most.
by Jay on
Jul 25, 2008 10:15 AM EDT
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For Dellucci, I believe the correct assessment should be VORB – Value Over Replacement Blogger.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on
Jul 25, 2008 1:24 PM EDT
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VORJT – Value Over Replacement Justin Trasher
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on
Jul 25, 2008 5:39 PM EDT
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milb.com is now listing Trevor Crowe as a member of the Buffalo Bisons.
With Cabrera back up, I guess the Bison boxscore on non-Huff pitching days is once again worth checking.
by xrickx on
Jul 24, 2008 8:00 PM EDT
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If you truly have the power to will this sort of thing, you are grossly misusing it. Get us David Price.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Jul 24, 2008 10:31 PM EDT
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Somewhere, Todd Linden’s #1 fan quietly seethes.
by mrich on
Jul 24, 2008 10:41 PM EDT
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