Brewers Blog: Sabathia deal is possible
YES, I bookmarked google news for the Indians specifically for this week.
Interesting points:
- As the Brewers continued to scout Sabathia in his outing for Cleveland against Chicago on Wednesday night, word came out of Brevard County that the Indians were looking at specific Milwaukee minor leaguers.
- The Indians reportedly had scouts looking at Class A Brevard County third baseman Taylor Green, the Brewers' minor league player of the year in 2007. Cleveland is believed to be taking a close look at the Brewers' prospect-laden Class AA Huntsville club, also.
- They're unlikely to part with Gamel or LaPorta.
over 3 years ago
westbrook
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agreed, unless we get a quantity of players. I really want Gamel, personally.
The 2008 Cleveland Indians: Home of the Triple Steal, Unassisted Triple Play, and not a heck of a lot more.
Quality>>>>>>>quantity.
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Jul 3, 2008 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
westbrook, I’ve got to call you out on some (admittedly unintentional) sloppy quoting here. The only information in this column is that the Indians scouted Green. That the Brewers are “unlikely” to deal Gamel because is that columnist’s opinion, nothing more. He knows only whom the Indians were scouting at that particular game, not whom they have scouted previously, or more important what they’re asking for. I’ve got to figure the Tribe is leading with Gamel or LaPorta and taking it from there. Of course the Brewers don’t - as Haudricourt says - WANT to deal Gamel and/or LaPorta. I didn’t WANT to pay $500 for my speakers. It’s what they cost.
by fleerdon on Jul 3, 2008 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I was just taking paragraphs for a quick briefing of the article. I wasn’t really trying to piece it together properly, and I realized the third one wasn’t as good of a summary as I thought it was after I read the part about those two again.
The 2008 Cleveland Indians: Home of the Triple Steal, Unassisted Triple Play, and not a heck of a lot more.
I’m exaggerating, I guess. I think I paid $350 or so for my 5.1 system with the receiver and the DVD player. I like my good music and movies loud.
by fleerdon on Jul 5, 2008 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think the columnist said they wouldn’t part with LaPorta or Gamel. He does say they likely wouldn’t part with LaPorta (in it’s own statement).
But the other part was the Indians were scouting Taylor Green the third baseman in High A. His point was if they were to deal third baseman Green, they probably wouldn’t also deal Huntsville AA third baseman Mat Gamel.
I don’t know if the Indians prefer Taylor Green to Gamel, but it probably makes sense we would not get two third baseman in the deal… even if Gamel will end up at 1B.
Robothal says the Brewers offer does include LaPorta, and perhaps Alcides Escobar.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8311012/Brewers-lead-pack-making-serious-run-at-Sabathia
I’d do that deal in a heartbeat.
btw … I just looked up Taylor Green in BA’s handbook, but I can’t say I’m too impressed. He’s rated #17 in the Brewers’ top 30 (albeit a pretty loaded system), none of his tools grade out as above-average, has only moderate power, adequate defense at 3rd, good plate discipline though, but he might be a little old for his leage (22-years old in High A). Unless Green is just a player part of the deal – not the main guy – I think we can do without him.
I’m not so sure why we’re looking at Green either unless he’s the 2nd or 3rd guy in the deal, but wow, Alcides Escobar, age 21 at AA, could play SS in the major leagues right now (Baseball America 2008 Prospect Handbook), 824 OPS. Plate discipline a little bit iffy but that’s nit picking no?
LaPorta is what, playing LF? He’s 23 and mashing AA (as he should) where Gamel is a year younger at 22, mashing just as well if not better. Difference I guess is LaPorta is OK in LF where Gamel is probably not going to stick at 3B. I still like Gamel better than LaPorta though.
Meant to say too, not that it’s indicative of a damn thing, but those blog comments after that Milwaukee Journal Sentinel post was made seemed evenly split about Gamel and Green (with Gamel not being able to stick at 3B, further clouding the big league picture with Green being the more solid glove but clearly not as sensational a stick).
But why wouldn’t we just stick with the more advanced AA club’s bevy of prospects.
So let’s say—without regard to anyone else we get—the Indians land Escobar.
The gives us Escobar, Carroll, Peralta, and Cabrera with the ability to play short,
and Cabrera, Barfield, and Carroll with the ability to play second.
Carroll isn’t a long-term option, but everyone else is pretty young. It’s interesting.
Steel Nick
It would appear so. I haven’t heard of Escobar playing any 2B, and even if he did there’s a logjam there already. Whether he goes to third would also depend on whether we got Gamel, or if Green could be ready by 2010 with a stopgap in between. I actually don’t know if the Tribe would even try Gamel at third considering his D, but I’d stick him there for the time being. And then there’s the obvious question: Can Peralta play third? It seems to be a question we don’t even bother asking anymore.
Trading him would be pretty interesting. I like him. I’d also like to see what we could get for him. We could sell a team on the unbelievable chemistry he has with Blake, and how they could both help your ballclub.
Steel Nick
I’d think so too. It’s obvious Wedge doesn’t like him.
I don’t particularly like him either, but he does have some strange brand of ‘clutch’ in him.
The 2008 Cleveland Indians: Home of the Triple Steal, Unassisted Triple Play, and not a heck of a lot more.
As I understand it.
Correct me if I’m wrong, anybody, but I think Escobar is bit like Cabrera: glove-first shortstop who is suddenly surprising everyone with his bat. I think his bat looks a little more solid.
Steel Nick
I’d say that’s fairly accurate. BA also had comments going into 2008 which included “will never have a lot of pop and needs to improve his plate discipline to reach his offensive ceiling” and “still needs to get stronger” and “Brewers believe he’ll have gap power as he continues to develop”.
He’s popped 7 homers this year, which is nice for a no-power all-glove shortstop who is still developing power (I suppose). .446 SLG, if you were wondering.
Also! He’s stolen 22 bases in 28 attempts (79%).
Steel Nick
Yes — solidly. Assuming the bat arrives.
But I think it’s not a given that Escobar starts 2009 in the majors if we acquire him. I mean, why should it be?
What we should be looking for is starting with Marte, Peralta, Cabrera and Garko in the majors, and then letting Gamel, Hodges, Escobar, Rodriguez and Brown put pressure on them from Triple-A.
If we’re looking at Double-A players, even the best ones, then we’re looking at 2009 as a transitional year. That doesn’t mean we’re not contending necessarily, but these guys aren’t necessarily ready just yet.
Sidenote: Josh Rod showed up for June. I could use some more of that.
by fleerdon on Jul 5, 2008 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I just want to go on record as saying that I’m giddy at the thought of landing LaPorta, Escobar and Green in a deal. Any chance we could land their AA catcher too?
I think you could start by figuring you get, at most, two of those three.
by fleerdon on Jul 5, 2008 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
MLB Trade Rumors has another link to Haudricourt from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel who believes that Rosenthal is wrong with his report of LaPorta AND Escobar being considered. His people keep telling him Taylor Green so you sort of infer that the offer might be LaPorta and Green.
I don’t think there’s anyway we land 3 of these guys (Green, Escobar, Gamel, LaPorta) and it certainly doesn’t sound like he thinks we’d even get the marquee two players (if it was Escobar as the 2nd guy in addition to a Gamel or LaPorta).
Olney has the same take, enough so that I’m guessing he’s basing it off of Haudricourt’s report. I’m thankful that I have plans all weekend so I don’t end up sitting around obsessing about this.
One last thought before I head out. Olney also says that JJ Hardy could be included in the deal. Does that idea sound awful to anyone else? Would we consider moving him to a corner OF position? For that matter, does this trading thing mean we might move some of our many corner outfielders? Choo and Guttierez might bring more value from NL teams than they offer us.
Don’t know if it sounds awful as Hardy seems to keep improving with the stick in this his age 25 season. What appears to be awful is how Milwaukee managed his service time. Exactly 3 years coming into this season, meaning barring an option to AAA, we only keep him for 2009 and 2010.
Highly doubt though that we’re interested in Hardy.
What I’m wondering is if we’d consider adding a bullpen arm to Sabathia to get that 3rd AA guy, maybe like a Cole Gillespie, but I just don’t see it. We’d be selling low on Betancourt, I don’t see why we’d ever trade Raffy Perez, and it would be weird trading Kobyashi in the 1st year of the multi-year deal. Everything else we’ve got isn’t worth anything.
That’s what I was thinking cheech. Milwaukee is in dire need of bullpen help too. I just can’t imagine us trading away Perez .. but if he is the difference maker in this deal, Shapiro could pull the trigger. 2008 is a lost cause .. and there is no proof of what kind of Rafeal Perez shows up in 2009.
I considered this as well. I think Masa would make a little sense. Either he should be given our closer job outright, or he should be on the block. I believe it was only a two year deal, and if he isn’t going to get a long look at closer, we might as well get some value out of him.
I don’t see us trading either of the Raffy’s. Like you said, it would be selling at Betancourt’s lowest possible point in his career and Perez is young and under team control while being good to great over the last 2 seasons.
I was thinking that Masa might make some sense…. and I think his value might be at its highest, it’s just the whole trading him the first year of his multi-year deal thing.
It’s interesting, we talk about how it’s rare to trade players in the first year of a mult-year deal because it sort of compromises ourselves with future free agents, but:
A: Is that much of a consideration with Japanese players? I honestly don’t know.
B: It’s not like we’re ever going to be doling out many mult-year free agent contracts in the first place.
Don’t you think GMs look past current performance with someone like Betancourt? Last year the guy was perhaps the best reliever in the American League. We wouldn’t be selling low on him. If he’s healthy he’s a valuable pitcher who would make a difference in a pennant race.
well, I think the more recent the performance, the more useful it is in telling you what a guy is worth. Sure, Betancourt is better than a 6 ERA. On the other hand, 07 was a bit of a fluke too.
This is all to say that Betancourt has some value right now. But it is much lower than it his value has been at any point in the last 2 years.
I think GM’s look at Betancourt’s performance and assume something is wrong with his arm.
by Jay on Jul 4, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Re- Hardy. I kind of see him as an older Peralta. Good pop, but inconsistent (just ten days ago he was OPS’ing under .700, but has been outrageously hot during a current 15 game hitting streak), and probably not going to stay at SS his entire career. Not that we couldn’t use another Jhonny Peralta, but not if its at the expense of getting another high ceiling AA guy.
Totally agree that his streakiness remindes me of Peralta. Inconsistent with good power for the position; not sure about his fielding.
Hello cheech99,
One report I read (don’t remember if it was that blog or if it was someone like Rosenthal) who suggested that Hardy’s defense at SS has really deteriorated; combine that with the fact we’d only have him for 2 years, and I would be a bit surprised we’d take Hardy in the deal.
That same report also suggested that Milwaukee may be a bit more desperate than most teams because Sheets is a FA after this year and there are some disagreements regarding themselves and Prince Fielder, who is represented by Scott Boras – there is concern he won’t sign a long-term deal after they didn’t sign him to a new long-term contract after his great season last year.
In other words, Milwaukee might think this season is their best chance to win it all, being that there may be some changes (not a total overhaul, mind you, but still some considerable changes) after this season. Therefore, they may be willing to pay a higher price to get Sabathia, especially since they have a deep farm system (especially at the AA level) and the fact they’d get four high picks (two each for Sheets and Sabathia). Plus, if Fielder would be traded (I’m not totally sure that would happen, but I suppose it’s possible, especially if Gamel is moved to 1B or LaPorta remains with them), they would get a nice package of talent in return there as well, so I think it’s a realistic possibility they’d be willing to overpay a bit for Sabathia (i.e. 2 of the 3 guys mentioned of Escobar, LaPorta, and Gamel).
While Milwaukee is not in the same situation as Montreal was when we made the Colon trade with them back in 2002, Milwaukee is at a bit of a cross-roads in the sense that their ace (Sheets) will likely be gone after this season, and they don’t seem to be on great terms with their best hitter (Fielder) either. Therefore, I wouldn’t put it past them to pay a little more for Sabathia and go for it all in 2008, especially since they haven’t been to the postseason since 1982 (26 years!)
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
There’s no way Green is the key player in any deal.
He’s just the Sizemore — they still have to give us a Phillips and a Lee.
He definitely isn’t the key player, but everything written today indicates he’s the 2nd guy, not the Sizemore.
Mr. GM, trade me a dream ,
Make it the slickest that I’ve ever seen,
Give him two arms like Ruth and Grover ,
Then claim our basement sniffing days are over.
Mr. GM, we’re so alone,
Don’t have nobody to drive someone home,
Please complete your brilliant scheme,
Mr. GM, trade me a dream.
brilliant
One of these days... bang, zoom, straight to the moon...
by mixmasterasia on Jul 4, 2008 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Ken Rosenthal (who clearly isn’t having much of a 4th of July) has another post up on Fox Sports that says the Dodgers are still very heavily in the mix.
He talkes about Class AA right hander James McDonald, Class AAA shortstop Chin-Lung Hu and Class AAA third baseman Andy LaRoche believed to be among the prospects considered (he further mentions they would probably deal 3 prospects to the Indians although none would be as highly touted as Matt LaPorta).
Further complicating any deal from the Dodgers standpoint is that they are seriously pursuing Jack Wilson to replace Rafael Furcal.
Keep those rumors coming!
Hello cheech99,
I wouldn’t mind, and in fact, would like to get a very solid to top-flight pitching prospect in a deal we’d make for Sabathia – I have not heard much about McDonald, but from what I see of his profile on The Baseball Cube, he seems to be a pretty solid pitching prospect.
LaRoche concerns me only because of his injury history, but he seems to be rebounding pretty well for the most part at AAA, with an excellent 37 BB/14 K ratio in 119 ABs. Lung-Hu isn’t hitting well with the Dodgers, though he did do well in the Minors (though one has to keep in mind the Southern and Pacific Coast Leagues tend to increase offensive numbers, and especially the ballpark in Las Vegas from what I have heard and read). I think Lung-Hu’s defense is solid enough.
As you mentioned, none are as highly-touted as LaPorta, but all have their bright spots, and we’d get a potentially very good middle-of-the-rotation starter or even a good frontline starter to help make up for Sabathia’s loss and protect us in case Miller, Lofgren, or both don’t turn out as expected.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I’d say we’ve already got that in Huff at this point — but it sure wouldn’t hurt to get another one.
Hello Jay,
Agreed – as I mentioned in another post, I’m surprised by how high Huff’s K rate is, making me think I may have underestimated his ceiling and ability a bit, thinking of him more like a Sowers because of the supposedly “soft” stuff/velocity. Now, I’m thinking he might be more like a good Lee – I’m not saying he’s the 2008 Lee, by any means, but more a solid to very good #3 and even maybe a decent to solid #2 guy, especially if he keeps that K rate up. Huff may be closer to a frontline starter (#2-#3) rather than a decent to serviceable back-end starter (#4-#5).
Yes, Huff has been a surprise, but as you mentioned, I wouldn’t mind another pitcher to help make up for the loss of CC, especially since there are question marks surrounding both Miller AND Lofgren, arguably our top two pitching prospects when the 2008 season started. As they say, “You can never have enough pitching.” :-)
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Actually, anybody who ranked Lofgren ahead of Laffey at the start of the year was a damned fool.
Whether Sowers can figure out how to be a major league pitcher is going to make a huge difference for 2009 and beyond.
Hello Jay,
Yes, I think I was thinking more of the start of the 2007 season, though I think a few publications were still considering Miller and Lofgren our top two pitching prospects and overlooking Laffey to start the 2008 season. Plus, I wasn’t sure if Laffey was still eligible to be ranked, but as I mention below, I guess he was still eligible.
I know I was disappointed in Lofgren’s performance in 2007 and was impressed with Laffey’s, so if I was doing writeups to begin the season, I would have put Laffey ahead of Lofgren. Though, was Laffey still eligible to be ranked going into the 2008 season? I see he had 49.1 IP, so I think he was still eligible as I think the rookie cutoff is 50.0 IP, correct?
Certainly though, Lofgren’s ranking has dropped in my book, as did his ceiling a few years ago, from a possible #1-#2 pitcher to more of a #3 with a chance to be a #2 if he can put it all together (which I’m having my doubts on at this point – too erratic with his command and not being able to go deep into games because he can’t finish hitters off easily).
I also agree about Sowers – his ability to adapt and stick at the ML level will make a big difference in our prospects for 2009. That’s probably why I’d like to get back a pitcher for CC if possible – that way, you’d have that prospect (McDonald from the Dodgers or whoever it is) and Huff going into 2009 to count on along with Sowers, since it’s likely Byrd won’t be back in 2009 and Westbrook won’t be ready to pitch at all until the second half, and not be at full strength until the start of the 2010 season.
Without that second pitching prospect, not only do you have to rely on Sowers, but you also have to hope you get contributions from Miller and/or Lofgren. Unless you go with another prospect like Frank Herrmann, J.D. Martin, Scott Lewis, or have a FA pitcher filling in like Jason Johnson (ugh!). That’s why I wouldn’t mind the LA deal if it’s actually a proposal (not sure if it is or not) as we’d get back a pretty solid pitching prospect as well, though I can understand why many are enthralled with LaPorta, and he would be a pretty solid acquisition for a 2-3 month rental.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Correct — Laffey was just under the cutoff.
Goes without saying Lofgren has dropped in everyone’s estimation. Hard to believe he’s the same guy who dominated the Carolina League at age 20 in 2006.
It’s sad, really, but I’d be so relieved if only Sowers could manage to be a Kason Gabbard type — in fact, I’d probably trade Peralta straight-up for a guy like that. We need that one-more-guy guy.
by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Hu seems like a doubtful inclusion given the shakiness of the Dodgers’ middle infield. LaRoche is intriguing, but less intriguing to me than an actual season out of Marte. (He’s sort of what we’d like Marte to be by now.)
That’s a decent package, but I like LaPorta/Green/? better. On the other hand, we’re starting to look like we could use another starter. Now I’m confused again.
by fleerdon on Jul 5, 2008 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Why would we need another starter? We’re going to be re-signing Sabathia after the season ends, right?
Kidding, kidding …
by Jay on Jul 5, 2008 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I actually like this Dodgers deal a little bit more than the Brewers deal. The thing that bothers me right now about the proposed Brewers deal is that we’re supposing that LaPorta is a mortal lock for greatness and the other prospects therefore don’t need to be that good. I’d really rather see three 4-star guys than one five-star and two two-stars.
I basically agree with this, though in part it’s just because I’d rather have 12 starts than 9 stars.
by Jay on Jul 5, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
also, might the Dodgers be willing to offer more because they could sign him?
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 5, 2008 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Hello GFP,
I think they might be willing to if Shapiro and MLB were willing to offer a 72-hour window for a contract extension, but most reports I’ve heard suggest that Shapiro is not willing to offer that window, so I don’t think the Dodgers would be willing to pay any more than the Brewers would, and possibly less than the Brewers would, due to the fact that Sheets will likely leave after this season and the fact that Fielder may not sign with them long-term. That’s why I’m thinking the Brewers may be willing to pay that higher-than-expected price – they know this season is likely the last season they have with their current group (certainly with Sheets, and possibly with Fielder as well). Add to that that they missed the postseason last season when they were pretty close to making it and the fact that they haven’t been to the postseason since 1982, and I think that is why Shapiro is trying to get as much from them as he can.
Combine that with the Dodgers’ interest in CC, and I’d think that it may be possible for Shapiro to get LaPorta/Gamel (that’s either/or), Escobar, and Green. After all, I don’t think those other options are comparable to CC (Maddux isn’t the pitcher he once was, even with NL lineups, Wolf has been a bit erratic in some of his starts, and Burnett is often erratic in several of his starts, so while there are other options for the Brewers to consider, I think all three are at least two notches below CC in terms of the kind of pitcher they’d get. Maddux and Wolf aren’t frontline starters, and Burnett is far less consistent and reliable than CC is, even if he has frontline stuff). Therefore, I’d think the Brewers would be willing to pay a little extra to get arguably the best and most reliable pitcher on the trade market (which is why Harden would likely be excluded, due to his injury history).
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
This guy Tom Hardricourt from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel keeps churning them out with his blog. Apparently he spoke with Doug Melvin after the Brewers win today and now surmises that the deal that Milwaukee is offering is “LaPorta, Taylor Green, and possibly another prospect, perhaps outfielder Lorenzo Cain”.
Also quotes Melvin as saying “Cleveland is in control of this, not us”. Well, with the season down the tubes, at least we have these few days of rampant prospect acquisition speculation.
LaPorta and Green is a great start, but I’d hope we could do a little better than Cain.
I have no idea what “Cleveland is in control of this” means. Milwaukee is the only team in the running that could end this tomorrow if they decided to do so, and even if they don’t they’ve got the most talent to play with.
by fleerdon on Jul 5, 2008 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I keep thinking there’s a dark horse in all this. They’re saying Boston and Tampa are more concerned with hitters, and the Yankees aren’t even sure they’re buying — I’m skeptical in all three cases. And what about Anaheim?
When it comes right down to it … who couldn’t use a #1 starter?
by Jay on Jul 5, 2008 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions
We’ve yet to hear from the Cubs, but I don’t think the Cubs have the goods. The Phillies really have nothing.
The Cardinals always seem to find a way to get their man, but I’m not sure there’s anything of interest there either since I doubt their dealing Rasmus. Even then, the Indians might prefer LaPorta if LaPorta really can be had.
I think the Cubs or Phillies have enough if they’re willing to empty the cupboard — unless the Indians don’t happen to like their very best guys. I see plenty of speculation to the effect of, do these teams really want to trade the only 1-3 good prospects they have? My reaction to that is, what the hell are you going to do with only 1-3 good prospects anyway? Not contend. You’re already nearing the end of your current run if that’s all you’ve got, so you might as well load up for the current season and/or next.
I don’t know if they are darkhorses, but the Rosenthal blog said that the Dodgers are still very much alive
Imagine playing Tampa in a playoff series when they can throw Kazmir, CC, Garza and Shields at you all on normal rest. And they have Sonnanstine in reserve for when CC gets shelled.
Dear Mr. Sabean, I hear you have a reputation of being stupid. Want to deal Lincecum or Cain? You can pick THREE of these 4 players for either: Borowski, Dellucci, Blake, Byrd.
So if we had to include some kind of a prospect from Akron or Buffalo in return to up the return to something like LaPorta, Escobar and Green, anyone you wouldn’t want to trade? For me, Huff, Miller, Sipp, Hodges…
I heard Olney say the Brewers had checked out some Indians prospects, but I didn’t hear which team. Was it Akron?
If it were me, I’d be after one of our 19-20 year old starters. I’d be willing to talk on all of the AA or AAA guys except Miller and Huff.
by fleerdon on Jul 5, 2008 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Would it still be worth LaPorta and Green and somebody else decent if they asked for Hodges as a replacement for Green? I guess that’s the issue.
by fleerdon on Jul 5, 2008 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
At this point, you’ve got to put Miller on the table if you have a chance to get back a three-prospect package that includes a big-league ready pitcher. If all three prospects are top-shelf, then the deal makes sense, and it takes some of the sting away for the other side.
Having said that, I’d hate to lose Miller. We really need all hands on deck for 2008, because at this point, Sowers is our #4 pitcher for 2009 with no clear #5.
Boy Dennis Nosco on Swerbs Blurbs is shooting for the moon on the package he thinks we should be receiving (Scenario A: Parra and Gamel, Scenario B: LaPorta, Gamel, Escobar, and Jeffress, Scenario C: Braun and Gamel).
Is he trying to be funny? He thinks one plausible scenario is receivng Braun back, or Parra back?
we’re not getting braun. but oh if we were …
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 5, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I just read that and laughed when I saw him mention Braun. I even sent him an e-mail asking if he was delusional.
In case anyone cares, this is what the author wrote back to me:
Thanks for writing. They gave away a lot for a two month rental of a setup man last year, didn’t they? Same GM, next year.Again, setting your expectations low yields an easily satisfied fan. We get two draft picks for CC. LaPorta and Gamel should be our bottom line in this deal.
Again, thanks for weighing in.
BTW, I agree no way the Brewers trade Braun or Gallardo to us in the deal for CC straight up. But I can dream, can’t I. It’s no worse than Brewers fans saying that we should be lucky to get LaPorta and no one else for CC. I hope you don’t think that is true.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 6, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Not =, but given the timing, they’re essentially acquiring Sabathia for the difference between Gamel/LaPorta and two pretty good draft picks.
by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t the author implying that the deal starts at LaPorta AND Gamel because that’s the value of two draft picks?
Maybe Nosco is still furious with Shapiro, Mirabelli, et al. because they chose a Baseball America #74 ranked player with their #29 pick, and his pre-draft write-ups didn’t match at all what the Indians did. Call me “an easily satisfied fan,” but Nosco seems like he’s quite ready to be indignant and scornful about the trade no matter what happens.
And it is very hard to parse Nosco’s meaning in his cryptic response.
by Deep South Ken on Jul 6, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You know something, I was confused all along — I thought we were talking about a Brewers fan writing that.
“Setting your expectations low yields an easily satisfied fan.” He thinks it’s his “job” as a “fan” to be especially hard to satisfy. Knowing the source now, my answer is, who gives a crap?
by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m still holding our for CC and Hafner to the Yanks for Giambi’s thong.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
This morning Kenny Roda interviewed Drew Olson (an article he wrote), a Milwaukee radio host (who was apparently the president of the BBWAA). Not much flavor in it, but the names LaPorta, Gamel, Escobar, and Green come up. Olson is high on Escobar.
http://espncleveland.com/includes/tables/42/20080705112021.070508RodaDrew_O.mp3
Steel Nick
I just noticed on the end of the interview Olson says he’s heard Peralta’s name as an included player. Odd.
Steel Nick
does Parra get groundballs or something? because his numbers, at his age/levels, are good but not all that astounding.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 5, 2008 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
just stopping by
I’m from the Brewers blog BrewersNation, and I’m just trolling the Indians rumors right now.
Parra is second in the NL in getting double plays, and yes he does get a lot of ground balls. He has three plus pitches and has been getting better every month. And…there’s no chance you get Parra.
Melvin is not going to include two of LaPorta/Escobar/Gamel/Salome/Brantley in any deal. If you included Masa Kobayashi in the deal, you’ll get a much better package. Perhaps the Dodgers will be able to up the package.
Do you like LaPorta, Escobar, or Gamel better?
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I think everyone recognizes (or should recognize) LaPorta as the jewel.
I think Shapiro at least as the luxury of saying it’s LaPorta and Escobar or no deal. I’m not saying he’ll force Melvin’s hand this way, I’m just saying he can refuse to do the deal otherwise.
And if all you want to get those two is Kobayashi thrown in, well, sure. Enjoy. He has big circles on his back. Enjoy those.
Steel Nick
A marginal Hall of Famer, before my time (though not by much). Here’s a link. His son played for the Indians in the late ‘50s.
by ken from alexandria on Jul 5, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
He was the team leader in a bunch of categories until the 90’s guys. Still is Tribe all time leader in Runs, RBI, Total Bases, Extra base hits and triples.
By the way, looking at those all time team leader boards, I think Tris Speaker and probably Nap Lajoie should have their numbers retired.
Did they wear numbers when Speaker and Lajoie played? I know that’s why Cobb’s number isn’t retired—he never had one. I’ll bet Speaker and Lajoie are in the same boat, otherwise their numbers definately would have been retired.
Yeah, I just checked the Hall of Fame website—Speaker and Lajoie played before players wore uniform numbers. Hence, their number cannot be retired.
Too bad, really, because they were two of the greatest players in Indians history, and I’ll bet that 95% of Indians fans have never heard of either player.
laporta and escobar
will be no deal. melvin will just walk and go for someone else.
if we’re going to trade two of our 5-star prospects, we’ll go for someone we could control for more than 3 months.
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Dude, there is no someone else. Sabathia was an elite starter for all of 2007 and arguably has been the best starter in the game over the past 11 weeks. Second-best is going to be a huge step down, and there is nobody comparable you could acquire as a non-rental without giving up all five of those guys. Look at what the Mariners had to give up for Bedard.
Those prospects you list aren’t all five stars. Kicking butt in High-A at age 21 or Double-A at age 23 doesn’t make you a five-star prospect, it makes you a four-star prospect at best — assuming the scouts adore you. A five-star prospect would already be in the majors by 23 and at least threatening Triple-A by 21.
I may be alone — or just ignorant — in preferring Gamel to LaPorta. Seems to me if you can keep one of those guys, you’ll do it.
I can’t see the Indians asking a contender to give up a perfectly good starting pitcher — the Indians want to maximize the value of the deal for the other side, and that means allowing the Brewerse to upgrade from their lousiest starter to Sabathia, not merely from Parra to Sabathia. So I agree with you on this part.
by Jay on Jul 5, 2008 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that Gamel looks like he might have a higher ceiling. Is there any reason to think he might be able to play rf?
by ken from alexandria on Jul 5, 2008 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I too wonder whether Gamel or LaPorta is the better hitting prospect. I know LaPorta was more touted when he was drafted, but Gamel seems to be matching or outdoing him at AA Huntsville, and Gamel is technically one year younger than LaPorta (he’s really 6 months younger, but it’s technically his age 22 season, compared to LaPorta’s age 23 season). Though LaPorta did skip High-A, whereas Gamel did not, so perhaps LaPorta is the better-hitting prospect, though it’s probably close either way.
Something else to keep in mind about prospects such as LaPorta, Gamel, and Green: The Southern League (the Brewers’ AA Huntsville team) is mostly a hitter’s league, so offensive numbers tend to get inflated. Conversely, the Florida State League (the Brewers’ High-A Brevard County team) is mostly a pitcher’s league (with larger ballparks as well).
Therefore, Green’s 6 HRs may look unimpressive, but in a more neutral league, that’s probably 10-12 HRs, so Green isn’t a bad offensive prospect in his own right (it was mentioned in another thread that Green’s numbers match or slightly outdo Gamel’s from last season, at the same age) and with reportedly a very good glove at 3B as well.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Where are all these great major league hitters who started out as highly touted college guys?
Are there a ton of them and I just don’t know?
by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Hasn’t Melvin been accused of being too cautious? Too protective of his prospects? I believe I read something where he was quoted as saying he wouldn’t be afraid to go for the gusto, as they say in Wauwatosa.
He gave up three prospects (I don’t know how good) for a reliever, Linebrink, at the deadline last year. If I remember correctly, he was criticized for giving up so much for a reliever, especially for just 3 months. If that’s true, I wouldn’t say he’s afraid to trade prospects and “go for the gusto.”
Hello Buckeye Brad,
RHP Will Inman was the best of the three by most accounts; I think there was some concern over his relatively small size (6’1”, 210 lbs.), but I think he has been durable, and his K/9 IP has been over 9 at every level, even at AA, so I think he’s still one of the better pitching prospects in the Minors (though probably more in the second-tier, more of a #2/#3 guy rather than a true #1).
And yes, Melvin was heavily criticized for making that deal, just because relievers don’t normally make that big of a difference in a pennant race, especially when it’s not a closer, and I don’t believe Linebrink was being brought in as a closer, but just as a setup guy/back-end reliever.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I don’t suspect you’ll see a deal built around Escobar. As much as we’d love to have another middle-infielder at the upper levels, I think the need for a big bat is much more pressing. I’m more of a LaPorta fan, but I certainly trust Shapiro and Co. to target the right guy for us.
by fleerdon on Jul 5, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m almost more interested to see what we can get for casey or paul.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 5, 2008 4:20 PM EDT reply actions
I just spent 15 minutes of my life reading comments at MLB Trade Rumors.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 5, 2008 4:30 PM EDT reply actions
I think a deal that got us LaPorta and Escobar and a lower tiered prospect would be good enough. I’m not sold on Escobar (just by looking at his stats), but whatever. LaPorta give the Indians a huge power guy with good OBP and he could probably replace Garko at 1st base right away. Or if the Indians want, they could keep him in the OF.
Plus, imagine the defense with Escobar and Cabrera at SS and 2B. It’d be pretty sweet. They still have to hit though.
Buster Olney reports tonight that the Brewers might not want to give up too much to get Sabathia, and are looking for possible (cheaper) alternatives in the trade market. He says that the Indians are also talking to the Rays, Dodgers, and Phillies, who recently demoted Brett Myers to AA. Olney writes that the Phillies do not have the upper-level prospects that other teams have, so the Indians would have to settle for a larger volume of lower-level prospects who wouldn’t be able to help very much next year.
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