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Somewhere. Buckeye Brad is doing a fist pump.

by Toxicadam on Jul 5, 2008 4:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

vnK4MudTyF1QQ3djIfF55GMxe4Bn3K-Y0gXAkVFgeXyjM1kAQoRkDbulsZ9b2Vn9DhWQs7m44s6lr/TigerWoods.jpg”/>

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 5, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damn, that didn’t work. It was supposed to be a picture of Tiger Woods doing a fist pump. Obviously I don’t know how to post pictures.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 5, 2008 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

By the way, how do you post pictures? I did a search on Google Image, found the picture that I wanted, and copied the link. Then I put the URL of the link using the picture icon here in the post a comment section. What did I do wrong?

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 6, 2008 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Make sure you right click on the picture itself and get that link, as opposed to the link for the website.

That could be it.

by afh4 on Jul 6, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks. Right-clicking didn’t work, but I tried a new picture with a different link and that worked.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 6, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You want to right click, go to properties, and look at the image url.

Sorry if you meant that you tried that. Just trying to be clear.

by afh4 on Jul 6, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK, I see what you mean now. Thanks.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 6, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right click, “copy image location”

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s been handled.

by Jay on Jul 5, 2008 4:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I thought it was funny that Posnanski just wrote about this after the last 2 weeks of discussion over here. I also enjoyed his take on Wedge at the end of the post. It’s clear the Wedge has the respect of both the players (other than Milton Bradley and Brandon Phillips) and Shapiro, but at some point the Indians recent history of playing worse than their Pythag record has to be taken into account.

by Cols714 on Jul 5, 2008 4:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why?

Who has ever demonstrated that that’s a sign of bad managing — or in fact that it isn’t a sign of good managing?

by Jay on Jul 5, 2008 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aren’t wins the simplest and purest indicator of good managing? What about a bad manager with a good team, or a good manager with a bad team?

by odradek on Jul 5, 2008 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, they certainly are the simplest indicator.

There are two chief problems with giving managers credit or blame for performance against Pythagoras.

The first is that it is premised on the idea that the manager deserves no credit or blame for the raw run production and run prevention. I don’t think that’s true — in fact, I think the manager may have more to do with that (though still not much) than he does with the Pythagorean variance. Until just a couple of days ago, we could have said of the Indians: “Hey, they’re missing their second and third best pitchers and their second and third best position players — not to mention the bullpen is a mess — and yet they’re still scoring as many runs as they’re giving up.” Does the manager deserve no credit for that fact?

The second is that we know that there’s significant variance in Pythagorean records, and there may be five or six key factors at work in the variance — luck, front-end of bullpen, back-end of bullpen, extreme platoon splits within the lineup, etc. There is no real reason to think that a manager’s in-game decisions are a significant factor among those.

My unscientific sense of it is that there might be six or seven factors that account for 10% of the variance each, and then the other 30-40% is just pure noisy randomness. I think, basically, that this Pythagorean performance is very nearly worthless as a test of a manager.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would agree in a similarly subjective fashion: look at the managers with better-than-expected seasons. There are lots of managers who have had such seasons who are not considered to be good managers.

by odradek on Jul 6, 2008 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That last sentence was just a triffle too long. It should read “I think, basically, that this Pythagorean performance is very nearly worthless.” We’d be in violent agreement then.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 7, 2008 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why must you always ‘agree violently’...

by APV on Jul 7, 2008 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cuz I love violence?

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 7, 2008 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In every guy on the team.

by Voltaire on Jul 7, 2008 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know Jay. It seems to me that the Indians have severely underacheived in both 2006 and this year. I’m not saying it is all Wedge’s fault and that by firing him the team will suddenly play better, but don’t managers usually get fired for having seasons like the one the Tribe has had?

Like I’ve said in other threads, someone has to be held accountable for having (almost) the worst team in baseball. Shapiro is safe, so the natural person to go would be Wedge.

by Cols714 on Jul 6, 2008 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you will find that managers more or less never get fired when a team has sustained the key injuries that this team has.

I am concerned that the significant injuries will cause management to underestimate the severity of significant performance problems we’ve seen this year, but there can be little doubt that two key factors — injuries + Betancourt — doomed this club, and I don’t see what the manager had to do with it.

I’ll even grant you that Wedge should have moved more decisively to convince players and the front office that Victor and Hafner needed to go on the DL sooner — that we’d have done better with Shoppach and, um, some other random terrible hitter in the lineup. But we don’t really know where Wedge was on that issue, and I don’t think anyone could claim that it would have made enough of a difference.

Not after this past week certainly.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Victor, Hafner, JoBo, and possibly Jenson Lewis. These players were evidently to the avg. fan not physically performing up to their levels in the past. The two I added entered the season throwing with markedly less velocity than in the past. I know the Lewis thing was “well he just needs time because he’s a slow starter”, but the fact was we were throwing guys with below avg. stuff out there and expecting them to perform like they they did last season with avg. to above avg. velocity/stuff.

by hans on Jul 6, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But then again, if you use the team’s performance vs. the Pythag projection, the Indians over achieved in ‘07. Wasn’t Wedge managing then?

So what happened? Did Wedge suddenly go from genius to dolt over the off-season? Did the players decide to fold because they don’t like Wedge?

Myself I think that injurings and player delamination is what caused the current nightmare. We get an influx of talent and our injured players back and Wedge’ll be a genius once again.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 7, 2008 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think anyone thinks that Wedge was a genius last year. But by your logic, a manager could pretty much never get fired. If the team is good, then you can’t fire the guy, if the team is bad, it’s the players’ fault (injuries, bad performances), so you can’t fire him then.

My point remains, someone should be accountable for this mess. The Indians have the 4th worst record in MLB and Shapiro’s not going anywhere.

by Cols714 on Jul 7, 2008 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here’s what’ll get a manager fired: player revolt, conflict with the front office, a sop to the fans for a bad season. Lord knows it’s never the GM’s fault for constructing a losing team. The usual order of execution is pitching/batting coach – manager – GM. We haven’t even trundled the batting instructor off to the guillotine yet, so I imagine Wedge’s is safe for at least one more season.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 7, 2008 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wedge could be fired for letting his team give up. That’s what it looks like is happening right now. Tony Pena and the hitting coach of his choice are available.

by elsandito on Jul 7, 2008 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Based on their performance in the Twin Cities (and Chicago), they do seem to have given up.

by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right
No manager has ever been fired for having a bad season.

by Cols714 on Jul 7, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, there’s the team’s bad season and then there’s the manager’s bad season. They’re not the same, that’s the point.

The manager is in many ways more like an office manager than an executive. You don’t fire the office manager when revenues are down, you fire the office manager when everyone is sick of him/her.

by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know, I pretty much agree. But I think at some point a team benefits from having a new manager with fresh ideas and a new perspective. To me, this Indians club has reached that point with Wedge, so I’d use this awful season as an excuse to fire him and start new, regardless of whether or not he deserves to be fired.

I imagine that we agree that the manager’s influence on a team isn’t all that great and most of the burden falls on the GM and the players.

But let’s not continue this argument anymore. We’ve pretty much said all we need to say, I think.I think it’s time for Wedge to go, even if this year isn’t his fault. You think Wedge should stay because this year isn’t his fault.

Is that about right?

by Cols714 on Jul 7, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t really care if he stays or goes, to be honest. I think he’s mostly harmless, and I think the front office is unlikely to pick someone who’s much better or worse.

I don’t know if the team could use a fresh face, but obviously the fans could, and I am a fan. Intellectually, I do buy into the Dolan/Shapiro concept that long-term personnel stability is a hallmark of great franchises.

by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about Willie Randolph? I know it didn’t work out for him with the Mets, but he seems like a good guy for Cleveland.

That being said, I don’t think Wedge is going to get fired. Although it wouldn’t surprise me if he does. Even last year, I never thought he was that great of a manager, anyways.

It is hard to determine when the bad performance of a team is a manager’s fault. Outside of determining pitching changes and the batting order (ahem), a manager really has very little control of the outcome of a game. A manager’s most important job is to keep everyone in the clubhouse happy and performing well. Of course, when things go bad, the manager is the first to go (or second, after some coaches). See Willie in NY.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 7, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But I think there were some players who had a problem with Willie, and I don’t know anyone on the Indians who feels that way.

And if fans complained about the 2005 collapse as a reason to fire Wedge, boy oh boy wait until they hear what Willie did last year.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like we gotta clue about club house politics. For all we know Blake’s hired a buttonman to pop Wedge.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 7, 2008 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like we gotta clue about locker room politics. For all we know Blake’s hired a buttonman to pop Wedge.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 7, 2008 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ooops not sure how that happened – damn hotel Internet connections!

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Jul 7, 2008 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s fair. But nothing is reaching the sourly press. If it was, I’m sure they’d be all too happy to share the grumblings with us. That’s the best I can say in defense.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Mets from all accounts are a highly dysfunctional organization, so you can’t really fault Randolph for any clubhouse nonsense. When you’ve got a manager being undermined by ownership trying to run a clubhouse full of overpaid diva stars, good things are not likely to happen.

Of course, in that sense, Wedge’s lack of player problems is as much a credit to the organization as it is to Wedge himself.

by Jay on Jul 8, 2008 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with a lot of this, and 100% with Jay’s last post down there in this chain.

I don’t know who said it. It may have even been—gasp—on the radio. It was something along the lines of, “As long as the players like him enough not to complain, Shapiro won’t see a reason to fire him.”

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fantastic quote from Poz:

Is Grady Sizemore, by virtue of his name, the opposite of Grady Little?

I love his blog. It’s a must read for any baseball fan, especially a Cleveland fan.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 5, 2008 5:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Are you going to try to convince him to bat Grady second?

by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’d have to send him a copy of “The Book” first. Then he might agree with me.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 7, 2008 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha ha, evidentally Joe doesn’t read here. If he did, he would realize how Grady would crumble if moved out of his comfy leadoff spot.

by dgcambridge on Jul 6, 2008 9:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Grady just flat out doesn’t want to move out of the leadoff spot.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 7:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

What’s interesting is Posnanski revisited this in his latest post and uses it more as an argument against Wedgie Wedge Wedge.

by Cols714 on Jul 7, 2008 11:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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