C.C to the Brew Crew — done deal, yes — we think
I would imagine that if this is a done deal, it'll be announced after the game. Anthony Castrovince says the deal is Matt LaPorta and two other prospects.
UPDATE: See also blog updates from Hoynes (1:38 p.m.) and Milwaukee's Journal-Sentinal (4:04 p.m.). [Jay]
UPDATE: Note new headline. Castro now says Shapiro told him directly that it's not a done deal, although Shapiro no doubt is partly making sure the Brewers aren't getting word through the media that the Indians think it's a done deal — i.e., keeping alive the idea that there are other serious bidders. Hoynes reported earlier that the Dodgers, Phillies and Rays were next in line behind the Brewers, but the Rays aren't going for the gusto, the Phillies don't have a big upper-minors guy, and Fox Sports now reports that the Dodgers are out of the running.
Meanwhile, LaPorta tellingly was not in the Double-A Huntsville lineup for tonight's game, while other rumored guys like Escobar and Gamel are in that lineup — consistent with Hardricourt's report that the Brewers have drawn the line at including two elite prospects for a three-month rental. [Jay]
UPDATE: Okay, now the Brewers reporter is saying it really is a done deal, as of 6:46 EST.
over 3 years ago
Ryan
280 comments
1 recs |
Email
PrintComments
wouldn’t it be great if shapiro called a press conference right now and announced byrd or blake was getting traded, and then at the very end bust out his pimp cain and LaPorta comes strolling in the room …
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 6, 2008 4:40 PM EDT reply actions
Pull a Steve Jobs?
“Oh, and there’s just one more thing …”
by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope so. Who replaces CC in the rotation?
Dear Mr. Sabean, I hear you have a reputation of being stupid. Want to deal Lincecum or Cain? You can pick THREE of these 4 players for either: Borowski, Dellucci, Blake, Byrd.
going to start listening to their game now
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 6, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Excuses for the swearing . . . but if we can’t land either Gallardo or Parra together with a solid position prospect, this deal is fucked.
yeah . . . I’m serious. If there is no top-line pitching prospect/MLB-ready guy coming our way, we are in trouble. period.
Lee/Carmona/Laffey/Huff/Sowers until Westbrook. If the pen is good, that’s quite a fine rotation.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 6, 2008 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
How is the pen going to get better next year? The Indians simply expect it being an odd year, the pen will be fine? How will the Indians get a closer? I haven’t looked at the free-agent list in a while, but Shapiro is going to have to make an exception and overpay for a couple of Linebrink-type relievers.
Because we need starting pitching or you want starting pitching or whatever doesn’t mean that 4 months of Sabathia becomes worth Gallardo.
also, sowers never put up the numbers that huff is putting up right now in AAA (6 starts, so we’ll see if he can keep his k’s up). Sowers’ strikeouts suddenly slipped in AAA and have never returned.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 6, 2008 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
DocNo, when I start using “Look at the stats!” as a personal catchphrase, please don’t take it as an insult. It’s not. I just think it’s a great way to end an argument.
by fleerdon on Jul 6, 2008 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
apologies for my laziness/lack of time at the moment, but . . . bullshit . . . you guys should both look at what Sowers did to AAA hitters before being called up, and then what he did in his first half year in the majors. I don’t have the time now to show you his stats (i have done that before in his defense), but he had a sub-2 era with approx. 1 hr. in 100 ip in AAA. He was dominating, minus the high-K rate. But he was not walking anyone as he is now, nor was he serving up HRs.
baseballcube.com should illustrate my point quickly enough
I don’t know how to convince you of my sincerity here, but I really am sincere. I can’t wait to be discussing politics with somebody and finish an argument with “Look at the stats!” The possibilities, DocNo, they’re endless.
I agree with you, for the most part, but I’m fearful of the Zach Duke effect. Great start, and middling ever since. I see he’s having an okay year now, but he’s still got some issues with the BBs.
by fleerdon on Jul 6, 2008 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think you’ve got a solid grasp on the values involved here. Why would any team that needs starting pitching for a stretch run trade top-line starting pitching?
Cf. Gallardo. Top-line talent. If the Brewers aren’t contending next year, he could be expendable. He’s certainly not doing anything for them this year. He should be the target, not laporta
but this is beside the point. contending teams (which I’m sure Milwaukee plans to be in 2009) don’t trade young starting pitching.
by APV on Jul 6, 2008 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry, but why in the world do you think MIL would be the first option for CC now if they were planning on contending in 2009? They can’t keep CC or Sheets, so they go for it now.
Of course, the fact that they can’t afford CC or Sheets means that they won’t trade Gallardo or Parra kind of negates my first point, but still . . . that is who we should be after
CC isn’t worth those guys. At all. Not even close. Those players represent the most valuable commodity in baseball, period.
Yeah I don’t know the rule. I assumed he could because DocNo was pushing it so hard but someone else will have to clarify it.
Tough to do with a player of any significant value. What happens when the guy never comes back?
by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
“Nadal really did a great job of sticking it to Federer’s backhand”
by APV on Jul 6, 2008 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Is anyone else listening to Uecker right now? I think he said someone was probably getting into makeup for 4:30 (central). I missed the first part.
ah hell i’m listening and totally missed it
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 6, 2008 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Not wanting to stir any pots, but there’s no real reason to delay a trade announcement until the end of the Brewers’ game unless there is a current Brewer (i.e. major leaguer) involved.
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
from a PR perspective, why would Milwaukee want to announce the acquisition of a HUGE player during a game, when its best fans aren’t necessarily in front of a television or internet.
by APV on Jul 6, 2008 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
OMG! CC Sabathia is in the owner’s box!
/waldman
by Toxicadam on Jul 6, 2008 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ESPN is already on it, of course (near the bottom). Note also the cherry-picking in the Dead-Line box.
by FranklinScott on Jul 6, 2008 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m actually really hoping we tank the rest of the year and get the #1 pick
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 6, 2008 5:06 PM EDT reply actions
So – do CC and Fielder have to sit on opposite side of the team plane to balance out the weight?
by IndyDave on Jul 6, 2008 5:07 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
They are going to have a tough time getting that bird in the air – especially in Denver.
by ganatz on Jul 6, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
he hit .333/.394/.622 last year across A+, AA, and AAA
by APV on Jul 6, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
he was clearly bored in AAA this year.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 6, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Haudricourt had an update at 4:04 speculating the press conference would be tomorrow
http://blogs.jsonline.com/brewers/archive/2008/07/06/brewers-trying-to-close-deal.aspx
Linked above. Here it is:
A couple of club sources have told me the Brewers and Indians are still in heavy negotiations to try to conclude a deal … That means they are still trying and the Indians are still listening … If the Brewers are going to get this done, they want to do it in time for Sabathia to make his next start for them. If you’re going to give up a lot for a pitcher, you want his services as much as possible.
by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
can’t somebody just leak the players names already?
by APV on Jul 6, 2008 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
yeah seriously. and i really find it hard to believe we were pressing for escobar.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 6, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
What is the chance that MLB has somebody sitting around on a Sunday night to approve the deal?
I assume they have to pull the guy out of his Sunday activity and get him to review pages of documents to show that he has done his work. It’s not like the last few days before the deadline where MLB would be geared up to handle a high volume of activity.
We’ll see if anyhing leaks overnight. Some guy on the Milwaukee blog said ( I assume jokingly) that his relative is a travel agent in Cleveland and that the Indians just bought a one-way first class ticket to Milwaukee.
A trade can be made on a Saturday, and it doesn’t need MLB approval unless more than $1M is going to change hands.
Maybe the Indians will be eating some salary to get a better package of players and also leave the Brewers with some free cash.
The chance is 100% that this gets approved within an hour.
by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
The Hardricourt blog comments are saying LaPorta is a scratch from tonight’s game, but no box score is up on MiLB yet…
Huntsville lineup
Parejo CF 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .291
Escobar RF 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .326
Gamel 3B 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .375
Salome DH 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .336
Gillespie LF 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .276
Hopf 1B 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .250
Bell 2B 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .258
Garciaparra SS 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .207
Maldonado C 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
Wright P 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .037
Note that Escobar is in right. And LaPorta is not in la porta.
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
Also! No Brantley.
(Sorry, meant these to be in reply to Fundamentals and palcal, above.)
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
If Brantley is injured (no matter how severely) and part of this deal, that probably explains the delay, at least in part. The Tribe would surely insist on some sort of assurance of his health, up to and perhaps including a medical evaluation. Considering the Brewers’ hurry to get CC on their mound, that might bode well for including an Escobar or Green rather than Brantley.
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
Casey’s life goal is to be the oldest player ever to make an error.
by fleerdon on Jul 6, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Get with it odradek – that was last year. This year Casey’s drivin’ ‘em in – when we’re down by 6 runs in the eighth.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
I like our current third base prospect a level higher than high A. Just my opinion though.
by ASP on Jul 6, 2008 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Castrovince just said he got off the phone with Shapiro—- deal is not done. http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/07/cc_to_the_brew_crew_done_deal.html
I fail to see how the leaks would serve to pressure Shapiro.
It’s in everyone’s best interest to get the deal done quickly, because Sabathia’s value goes down if they can’t get him to another city by Tuesday night.
by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I love a .978 OPS in AA at age 23 right now.
by FranklinScott on Jul 6, 2008 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps, though he’s at AA at age 21, with solid numbers; Crowe didn’t reach AA Akron until age 22, and didn’t have his first full season there until age 23. Additionally, Brantley is putting up comparative numbers to Crowe’s High-A numbers in 2006 at AA Huntsville, though the Southern League is more of a hitter’s league than the Eastern League.
Still, I think the worst case scenario for Brantley at this point would be a better version of Crowe – I could take that if Brantley is the third guy in the deal, along with LaPorta and Green.
I hope the hold-up is just that the Indians are being thorough with Brantley’s medical records and injury – if he needs some time off after acquiring him so he can be 100%, I wouldn’t think that would be a major issue.
Let’s hope it happens!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Definitely – plate discipline seems to be a strength for him, something we can use more of (too many Ks on our ballclub, especially for a ballclub without much power, two things that will hopefully become more manageable in the future – the Ks and the power).
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Hello everyone,
If we can get LaPorta, Green, and Brantley, I’d take that and be happy.
LaPorta is reportedly a “stud” – hope he turns out that way.
Green is very solid defensively and is hitting comparatively as well as Gamel was last year at Brevard County at the same age (and keep in mind the Florida State League is notorious for suppressing offense, especially HRs, so 6 isn’t bad by any means in that league at this point in the season.)
From what I see about Brantley, he just turned 21-YO and is off to a great start in AA – .337/.415/.426, with a 31 BB/14 K ratio in 249 ABs (around half a season). As I’ve mentioned before, the Southern League, unlike the FSL, helps to increase offensive production, so he might not be THAT good, but still is putting up solid numbers even after taking consideration the league, and he’s likely the THIRD guy in the deal.
Personally, I’d be happy with that – I know that neither may be Escobar, but I think both Green and Brantley could have fewer questions offensively than Escobar, especially when it comes to plate discipline.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Hey, I’d like that problem! You can put one at 3B (Marte or Green, though I might say Green,) one at 1B (Hodges or Marte, probably Marte,) and one in the OF (Marte would seem the likeliest, as I heard rumors about him being moved out there if he was inconsistent at 3B at one time or another over the past few years).
Depth is always good – either for filling out your club with players or with trade acquistions! :-)
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Whoops – I meant to say Hodges at 1B, not Marte.
Therefore, Green at 3B, Hodges at 1B, Marte in LF (or maybe RF if he could handle it).
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I wasn’t even thinking about LaPorta, who could fit in LF or DH (I’m not optimistic about Pronk at this point – I hope he rebounds, but I’m skeptical at this point) – if that’s the case, see if Marte fits in RF (since Gutierrez is looking less and less like an everyday player).
Depth can cause problems, but those are good problems in my opinion – they’ll sort themselves out. I just hope everyone in this deal pans out as expected (much like the Colon trade, EXCEPT all three of the players excel with the Indians).
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I’m happy that the Indians seem to be getting some real talent back in this deal, but I’m pretty sad that the best Tribe pitcher of my lifetime is gone.
I have been trying to think of a player who has done what we hope CC will do: get traded away midseason as a rental and then re-sign with his old team. Has anyone done this?
Kenny Lofton was before the season wasn’t he?
by Bernie19Kosar on Jul 6, 2008 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I too would have liked Sabathia to be in an Indians’ uniform into the next decade, but alas, the market inequality rears its ugly head again. The Indians had no real chance of retaining Sabathia, so this is the best possible move they can make, as I’d think these three will be better than 2 high draft picks (certainly hope and think so, anyway).
Go Tribe!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Hello Andrew,
Chisenhall has really started to heat up after a slow start – nice to see. I’d like to see more of our early-round picks start ripping through the Minor Leagues (unlike Mills, who has stalled a bit at High-A Kinston, though so have Drennen, Weglarz, Goedert, and Rivero as well, though Weglarz and Rivero are quite young, and Mills is too to a lesser extent).
Still, it’d be nice to see more of our early-round picks be unstoppable forces in the Minor Leagues, unlike the last few seasons (Jonathan Holt, for one – ugh – struggling at Low-A with marginal stuff from the reports I’ve heard).
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Wegz is on track, I think. I think we’ll get one good player out of Mills, Hodges, Goedert, and Drennen.
Chisenhall is becoming sort of exciting.
More critical is the point that Lonnie is NOT a polished college left-hander.
by fleerdon on Jul 6, 2008 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, Wegz shows some promising signs – I almost forget he’s only 20-YO, so his struggles at times is understandable.
As for Rivero, he’s only 20 (? – I think – Baseball Cube doesn’t have his age listed), so again, some struggles at High-A is understandable. Plus, he’s dealt with injuries off and on (hopefully, he can get that under control).
Mills himself is only in his age 21 season, so he’s not old for a college draftee, though you’d like to see him reach AA before the end of the season.
I hope you’re right about the foursome you mentioned – if we can get one good player and one or two decent players from that group, I’d be happy. :-)
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Mills may not have torn it up like we might’ve hoped, but his OPS for May and June was .888 and .874, respectively. Walk rate is good, 37 XBH, hit lefties well. Like I said, he’s not tearing it up, but let’s see how he finishes before we say he’s stalled.
Hello TribeJay,
Good point about Mills – I haven’t had a chance to really analyze his full stats; still, I think most were thinking he’d be ready for AA about now, but I’d say he could use more time at High-A to become more consistent. Therefore, I see maybe a cup of coffee for him at AA in August, but that’s probably all.
Like I mentioned above, he is on the younger side, so it’s not that damaging at this point, but I think many were hoping he’d be dominating High-A a little more than he has to this point.
Really, as a whole, the entire Kinston offense has struggled, with all those notable names (Weglarz, Mills, Goedert, Drennen, and Rivero) struggling at some point this season, if not altogether – that’s a major reason why Kinston is struggling so badly this year (a rarity for them). The pitching has shown flashes of dominance, especially from Rondon and from Wright, with a few solid to strong outings by Gomez, but has been outdone by the weak offense and the bullpen – strange, doesn’t this sound familiar? (Especially guys like Tseng, who does not look impressive, despite being able to now throw his curveball or other offspeed pitch that he wasn’t allowed to use last year to help him build up his other offerings.)
I certainly am not writing off Mills yet, but would like to see him pick up the production and stay consistent to finish this season – that way, he’ll hopefully be able to transition to AA easier in 2009.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Huff gets touched up for 3 runs in the first then comes back in the second and K’s the side in order.
We might have accidentally drafted a flamethrower.
Sounds a bit like Miller, though I hope Huff stays healthier than Miller (whose fastball reportedly jumped 3-5 MPH AFTER we drafted him).
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Except Huff was drafted at 24, not 18. But I see what you mean.
He now has like 41 K’s in 34 innings in Buffalo.
Oh and the most exciting thing about the Indians farm right now, to me? Tony Sipp.
Good point about Miller’s age – I did mean the unexpected life on his fastball. As mentioned elsewhere, I am surprised by Huff’s high K rates; when he was drafted, I was thinking more along the lines of a Sowers. Now, I’m thinking more along the lines of a good Cliff Lee (I’m not saying he’ll be as good as Lee, and not especially in 2008, but more of a #2-#3 starter being a real possibility, rather than a #4-#5 guy like Sowers is projecting more to be, provided he can become more consistent).
I too am excited about Sipp – I think he and Stevens might be the two guys who profile best for that closer role in terms of stuff. I can’t say about either’s makeup for the closer’s role at this point, though I think both have had some experience with the closer’s role in the Minors, though they’ll likely need more, and then some at the ML level before they can inherit that role at the ML level, if they ever do.
But, certainly, I’d consider those two (Stevens and Sipp) as our future long-term closer before investing a lot of money or even some money over many years on a closer with similar stuff to Borowski or a pitcher on that order.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Sorry. Sloppy math on all accounts.
I assumed this was his age 24 season, because he’s ‘84, meant to write 23, because I always forget pitchers go through NYPL, and should’ve been writing 21.
21. Still different than Miller. But not a silly age to be drafted.
Hello Andrew,
I thought that age wasn’t right, but I didn’t focus on it. That’s why I think Huff is promising, and especially because of that higher-than-expected K rate – he’s likely not CC, but if he can come close to the “good” Lee, I’ll be very happy! I think that would help ease the strain caused by the recurring injuries to Miller and the recurring struggles and injury to Lofgren.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
“It is definitively not a done deal,” Shapiro said. “I won’t comment on what point it’s at or how far along [it is].”
That’s Castrovince about 20 minutes ago.
If I have to wait for a press conference tomorrow for this to be done, I’m going to be annoyed. I’ve got stuff to do, and I’m sitting here refreshing 5 different sites.
Steel Nick
The waiting is the hardest part. Every day means one more yard.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Jul 7, 2008 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Also!
“It’s kind of flattering to have your name being brought up for one of the best pitchers in the game,” LaPorta told the Huntsville Times.
Steel Nick
Hello Nick,
Thanks for the update!
I sure hope we get LaPorta/Green/Brantley – I don’t want less than that, and I don’t think Green and Brantely are at the same level as LaPorta, so the Brewers would not be giving up more than one elite prospect. Two good to very good prospects along with an elite prospect, perhaps, yes, but Sabathia is considerably above every other pitcher they could realistically trade for, so the price shouldn’t be that cheap, even for a 3-month rental.
After all, the only two in my mind that could come close to Sabathia’s ability that I’ve heard mentioned on the trade market are Rich Harden and A.J. Burnett, and those two don’t match up value-wise in my opinion. Harden is too injury-prone (far moreso than CC), making him more of a risk of not delivering what the Brewers are expecting (a frontline starter) while Burnett is too erratic, plus has that option in his contract, making him far riskier than CC as well.
Therefore, I (and I am biased) think that LaPorta/Green/Brantley is not that high a price to pay for arguably the best pitcher in baseball, and certainly the best on the trade market.
Just my 2 cents – go Tribe!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Beane has more or less promised to ask the moon in return for Harden.
by fleerdon on Jul 6, 2008 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Talent-wise, Harden might be better than CC. Problem is, he’s never stayed healthy for longer than like 3 months.
Dear Mr. Sabean, I hear you have a reputation of being stupid. Want to deal Lincecum or Cain? You can pick THREE of these 4 players for either: Borowski, Dellucci, Blake, Byrd.
Which is why he’s riskier, and really, probably not as good of a trade option as CC. And, at best, Harden is only marginally better talent-wise than CC – combine that with his injury history, and I think CC has the advantage.
I don’t recall how long Harden is signed for, but with his injury history, whoever obtains him (if he’s traded) has to hope he stays healthy, or the deal could turn sour in a hurry.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Couldn’t see if it had been noted, but the forum at Brewerfans.net is reporting that Green was pulled from their game today, so it looks like we’re at least looking at LaPorta-Green+.
Thanks for the info.
So far, it’s looking good – LaPorta + Green + ? (Brantley – maybe the hold-up is checking on his medical records, as mentioned above). I hope that’s what it turns out to be.
Go Tribe!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I haven’t heard about LaCruoy – what’s his first name?
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
That link to Castrovince suggests that the Indians are desiring Lorenzo Cain as the third piece, though I wasn’t all that impressed when I looked at his stat line and age (though I know you can’t tell everything about a prospect by just looking at his profile page on the Baseball Cube. Still, I’d think I’d rather have Brantley than Cain).
I “googled” LaCruoy, but found nothing – who is this guy? I’ve never heard of him – please elaborate further on him (position, age, stats, etc.) – thanks!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Jonathan Lucroy, C, high-A. I’ve read that name being tied to this in a few places. Also, this seems like a mighty fine site in Brewers prospects to look at the guys coming to the organization.
7:59 PM and ESPN (television) just reported it. Thank god they waited, because I really wanted to hear why Krukie thought Rivera should start the All Star game.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 8:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Lucroy seems intriguing, though you’d expect him to do well at Low-A in his age 22 season (the 10 HRs are nice though, and the SAL isn’t usually considered a hitter’s league).
I was going to ask how his defense was – I see from the B ref page that he threw out 22 of 58 (37.9%) so far in 2008, with just 3 PBs, so he seems to be pretty solid defensively.
Yes, I could take him or Brantley – as long as it’s one of those two along with LaPorta AND Green. (I’m not as fond of Cain).
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Oddly enough, he’s spent some time at first base. Not sure why a guy with his skill set is at 1B, but it’s true.
Probably to get him into the lineup while he was a little shakey with some minor hurt.
by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
He is? The Baseball Cube doesn’t show his stats at High-A, just Low-A West Virginia, and that’s in 2008. Just curious.
While power is good, power doesn’t always manifest itself (Marte, Gutierrez, etc.) – I wouldn’t mind a few more leadoff type, top-of-the-order hitters in our system (Crowe and Constanza are both older than one would like) – while I like Lucroy, I’d take Brantley also. Personally, I think eventually, Sizemore will be moved down to the #3 spot someday and we’ll need a new leadoff hitter, as well as needing a #2 hitter, so I don’t think acquiring someone like Brantley would be a bad thing either, even if he doesn’t project to hit for much power.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I knew they weren’t always up-to-date, but I thought it was a few days to a week at most.
Still, that’s not a large sample size to go on – granted, I’m not saying Lucroy can’t handle High-A, but chances are, the league hasn’t adjusted to him yet. Brantley is more advanced, already doing well in half-a-season at AA, so he would likely help us sooner than Lucroy would (who I would leave in High-A Kinston for the rest of this season, just as hans suggested below).
Like I said, I’ll take either as the third guy in the deal (with LaPorta and Green), but I think Brantley has his solid points as well, even if he won’t likely be a power guy.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
MILB is way better than the cube for updated stats.
I don’t like guys who are relying on singles and OBP in the minors. Ellsbury, etc. In the majors, pitchers can challenge them because they know they can’t really hurt them-somebody at BP or something put this forward the other day.
On top of that, I don’t like those players personally. I’m sure I’d get over it but the kind of players the Twins are building around (Gomez, Span, Casilla) are the players I hate.
I find it’s quicker just to hate the Twins in general.
by fleerdon on Jul 6, 2008 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Hello Andrew,
Yes, I can see what you mean about Lucroy. Thanks for the link – I usually use MiLB when I’m looking up the Indians’ Minor League affiliates, but can access the Cube quicker because I can punch in the direct URL for a specific player without trying to look it up. Still, I’ll keep MiLB more in mind in the future – thanks!
Regarding guys who rely on singles and OBP in the Minors, I think they can be effective at the top of a potent lineup – Lofton and Vizquel’s games didn’t rely on power. Robbie Alomar’s game didn’t really revolve around it either, but they were at the top of those potent Indians lineups, and those lineups always seemed to have the propensity to jump out on their opponents quickly by scoring 1-3 runs in the first inning in almost every game. Granted, you needed hitters after them, for sure, but that’s arguably one of the problems with our offense today – we can’t manufacture runs. With the starting staff we have, a few runs a game may have been all we needed to turn some of those losses into wins. Even if you only tack on a run or two in 3 or 4 innings during a game, with the way Sabathia, Lee, and Laffey (early on) were pitching, it’s likely we would not have had such long losing streaks and probably would still be in the race, even with all the injuries we’ve had. We may not have even been talking about Sabathia being traded at this point.
That’s why I really think Sizemore will be moved down to the #3 spot at some point – his HRs would be even more productive if we had some good table setters ahead of him, and while an argument can be made for having more productive bottom-of-the-order hitters to get on base ahead of Sizemore now, outside of the Yankees, Red Sox, and maybe Rangers, how many bottom-of-the-order hitters are that proficient at hitting consistently well, even in the AL?
That’s the main reason they hit in the bottom of the order – they’re not as good of hitters as the guys hitting in front of them. Therefore, to expect those bottom-of-the-order hitters to get on ahead of Sizemore more often than not is probably not realistic, and not as likely as getting some solid speed, high OBP, .300+ BA guys in the #1 and #2 holes who are constantly on base ahead of Sizemore, who can drive them in repeatedly with XBHs and HRs, something he does very well.
In the leadoff spot, in my opinion, that ability of his is wasted a bit, or at least, isn’t utilized to its fullest extent. Combine that with the fact that Sizemore is a bit streaky at times and his OBP has been failling gradually over the last few years, and I think moving him to the #3 hole in the relatively near future could be a benefit for both him (more production, especially in terms of RBIs) and for the Indians’ offense. At least, I think they should explore it – our offense certainly needs to get better, and that even includes if we get Martinez and Hafner back to full strength when they return – this offense is still too erratic and still too dependent on the long ball, something I’m not fond of. You need to be able to manufacture runs when the long ball is non-existent – it’s better to have multiple ways to score than just relying on the long ball.
That’s why I don’t think Brantley would be a bad addition – if he’s a better, younger version of Crowe, I’ll take that as the 3rd guy without any problem.
Mind you, I can understand why you like Lucroy, and you make good points about the “singles, high OBP” guys, but I think they have their place in a productive lineup, just like they did in our former powerful offensive lineups.
As I said before, I’d take Lucroy or Brantley as the third guy and be happy, as long as we get LaPorta and Green. :-)
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Hello again Andrew,
One other thing that I mentioned before was the plate discipline Brantley has – something the Indians could use more of. According to his MiLB page, he was rated by BA as the Brewers’ prospect with the best Strike-Zone discipline.
That’s another quality of a good leadoff man or top-of-the-order hitter – the ability to recognize strikes and get on base. That’s why I’m intrigued by him.
I don’t know if he can only play LF or if he can play any of the other OF positions, but I’d be more worried about his offensive game at this point and worry about where he fits in defensively later (after all, LaPorta could become our next DH at worst if Hafner doesn’t rebound fully or close to fully to his “old” form).
Again, I understand your liking Lucroy, but I think Brantley would be a good addition as well.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Castrovince just updated to mention that LaPorta didn’t play tonight and that the deal is nearly complete.http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/07/cc_to_the_brew_crew_done_deal.html
Oh hey, guys? LaPorta’s slow. He’s perfect.
by fleerdon on Jul 6, 2008 8:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Sportsline.com’s story on the trade talks about us looking to trade Byrd and Blake as well, and mentions Betancourt and Martinez. This would upset me.
The Indians are actively shopping starter Paul Byrd, according to sources, who say they might also deal infielder Casey Blake and reliever Rafael Betancourt and might even discuss injured catcher Victor Martinez.
Il faut d'abord durer.
“might discuss” = I just made this up seeing that Kelly Shoppach is playing decently well.
The Indians are looking for hitters like Martinez.
I agree
Every indication Shapiro has given would suggest theres no chance in hell they trade Martinez. Also known as the most consistent hitter in the Indians lineup for the past couple of years.
by world dictator on Jul 6, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
anyone that says we’d trade victor is just way off base and not to be trusted.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 6, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
From Castro’s latest:
Adam McCalvy, MLB.com’s Brewers beat writer, told me LaPorta, Milwaukee’s top prospect, was once considered “untouchable” in trade talks. I’ve heard the same about shortstop Alicedes Escobar. If Escobar is involved in this trade (and I can’t help but doubt he is), consider it a major steal for the Indians, considering Sabathia is just a three-month rental for the Brew Crew.
and also
...with Sabathia making his first start for the Brewers on Tuesday against the Rockies and the Indians bringing Jeff Weaver aboard to round out their big-league rotation.
I think what Castro is missing here is that Gamel’s emergence with the bat — and not with the glove — is largely what made LaPorta touchable.
Hello Jay,
I’m not trying to second-guess here, but I take it the Indians were more interested in LaPorta than Gamel (i.e. think LaPorta is the better prospect of the two)? I agree that I think the Brewers were more willing to trade LaPorta because Gamel has emerged with the bat. I know LaPorta was more highly-touted coming out of the Draft than Gamel was (I had heard a sizable amount about LaPorta when he was drafted out of Florida, even by the Red Sox the prior year, but had heard virtually nothing about Gamel until recently).
My question is, was LaPorta the right choice between the two prospects? I know we can’t answer that definitively for a while, but does anyone have some info. on the strengths and weaknesses between the two prospects and why the Indians may have liked LaPorta better than Gamel (even though Gamel is outhitting him right now in AA, though as mentioned before, LaPorta skipped High-A, whereas Gamel didn’t).
Just curious and my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Cleveland Indians ace C.C. Sabathia was traded Sunday afternoon to the Brewers for three minor leaguers, including top prospect Matt LaPorta and third baseman Taylor Green, sources told Yahoo! Sports.
Maybe that is old news, but he’s the first person I’ve seen actually report that Green is involved.
That article vegaswatch linked to has been updated; according to Passan, we will get four players, and they’ve all been mentioned in this thread (and they don’t include Brantley or Lucroy, unfortunately):
1B/OF Matt LaPorta
3B Taylor Green (at least we get him)
LHP Zach Jackson (UGH! – why would we trade for him? I can’t imagine he’s making that much, so I can’t see this as salary relief. His stats remind me very much of LHP Jeriome Robertson, and we all know how that turned out!)
RHP Rob Bryson (he’s intriguing enough to me that I’m okay with him being the 4th guy, or likely, PTBNL in the deal. He looks like he could be a power pitcher, so at least we get back some promising pitching in this deal).
However, I have a bit of a problem if Jackson is in this deal – I don’t see much value in this guy. I would have rather had either Brantley or Lucroy, or even Cain for that matter. To me, I’ll be very surprised if we get any useful contribution from Jackson in the next year or two. If we do, I’ll be impressed and admit I was wrong, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he turns out like Jeriome Robertson. You can see his updated stats for yourself here, but I’ll say I’m very unimpressed with Jackson, who by the reports I’ve read is NOT a hard thrower, and I think the stats bare that out – in his first season at AAA at age 23 (same age as Sowers), he had a LOWER K/9 IP rate than Sowers’ 4.99 K/9 IP (it was 4.88 K/9 IP), and the H/9 IP and BB/9 IP weren’t even close to Sowers’.
Personally, I would have taken a no-name young prospect with little or a even long-shot chance of developing instead of Jackson, just because I would have gone with a no-name prospect and hoped I got lucky based on some scouting reports, rather than take a guy who had a poorer year than Sowers by most accounts in his first full season at AAA at the same age as Sowers (age 23). Additionally, in the Lyle Overbay deal that sent Jackson from Toronto to Milwaukee on Dec. 8, 2005, Jackson was the PTBNL in that deal. I don’t think his pitching since then would warrant him to be a named piece now (i.e. a player we would target and go after).
If Shapiro and company were thinking that Jackson could fill in for the time being in CC’s spot while it’s vacated, I’d have to think someone else could have been put in that spot for a few starts. Otherwise, I really don’t see what Jackson brings to the Indians’ organization – depth? I think Jeff Weaver has a better chance of giving us something notable than Jackson, who has not really handled AAA all that well in three seasons (2007 was okay). At absolute best, he might be another Sowers, and I think most of us aren’t that high on Sowers, so getting another one like him as the third piece in the Sabathia deal is a bit of a disappointment in my opinion.
I was hoping that third piece would be a young, moderate to high-ceiling guy (like a Brantley, Lucroy, or Cain), with the PTBNL perhaps being a long-shot, but young, prospect (Bryson would seem to qualify). Jackson doesn’t seem to fit in with what the Indians were wanting when they were trading CC, so if this report turns out to be true, what were the Indians thinking when they agreed to take Jackson as part of this deal?
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I’m disappointed (but only relative to the rumors, a week ago, I’d look at this deal and say “GREAT!”). Still, we get LaPorta, Green and Bryson. That’s pretty solid.
I don’t know what to think about Jackson either. Maybe Shapiro is a huge fan of Tom Glavine or Jamie Moyer and has a mini-life-goal of finding the next player like that. Otherwise, I don’t get his minor obsession with soft tossing lefties.
You’re really not getting that Jackson is a throw-in. Ignore him. Don’t get upset about it. You say “I’d rather have X or X” as if Shapiro chose Jackson when he could have had them.
Steel Nick
Hello Nick,
Yes, I had a hard time putting my mind around the idea that Jackson is really the PTBNL in this deal – after I thought about it for a bit, I’m alright with it.
Still, to add additional depth at AAA, I presume Shapiro and company must think they can somehow correct Jackson’s approach and mechanics for him to be useful beyond 2008; since this season is pretty much over in terms of making the postseason, does it really matter who we send out on the mound the rest of this season? It’s not like we didn’t have other capable pitchers we could throw out there (Weaver, Harris, Ginter, etc.) every fifth day. Plus, it’s likely you could pick up virtually any AAA free agent to fill a hole in Buffalo’s rotation if they needed another pitcher, and probably someone who has handled AAA better than Zach Jackson has in three seasons.
I’d be curious to know what else we could have had for that fourth player – if this is the best we can do, it’s fine, I guess, but I’m wondering if Shapiro and company were really looking for that AAAA depth because they felt we needed it. I have to think that Shapiro and company think that Jackson’s mechanics and approach can be corrected and he can be a more meaningful contributor than just filling out the AAA roster this season, especially when we traded arguably, the best pitcher on the trade market.
Of course, as Jay mentioned on the front page, the second player (or technically, the PTBNL) (along with LaPorta) will be the real key to how good this deal really is for us, not Jackson, so I guess it’s okay, but still a bit puzzling over whether this was the best throw-in we could get and why we didn’t get a long-term prospect who might take several years to develop (say, like Gregorio Rosario, for instance). That was moreless the type of guy I would expect as a “throw-in” in a deal like this, not a guy who is arguably weaker than Sowers and looks a lot like Jeriome Robertson.
I hope I’m proven wrong and Jackson is actually useful for us, but at this point, I’m not optimistic. Let’s hope the Indians recognized something in his mechanics and approach that they can correct and he’ll be more of a contributor in the coming years than just a “throw-in” in what will likely be one of the biggest deals of the 2008 trading season (what some would even call a “blockbuster” deal).
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I’m going to go on record as saying that Jackson is every bit as valuable as Gregorio Rosario.
Of course, you are not allowed to reply to me about that.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Hello everyone,
I hope this post made by MinorLeagueBall poster Bravesin07 is not true – here is the link he linked to.
Supposedly, we’d get LaPorta, left-hander Zach Jackson, right-hander Rob Bryson and a player to be determined in the deal.
Personally, I can’t see Shapiro going for that trade – Jackson has been between AAA and the Majors for a few years, with little success, and he’s 25-YO. I wouldn’t think he’d fit in with the Indians’ idea of acquiring talent that wouldn’t be up for arbitration or FA for a while.
Bryson is 20-YO, 6’1”, 200 lbs., with a 3-2 record and a 4.25 ERA at Low-A West Virginia. His line so far in 2008:
3-2, 4.25 ERA, 22 G/5 GS/5 SV/55.0 IP/43 H/31 R/26 ER/3 HR/20 BB/73 K, 0.87 GO/AO, .209 BAA.
Most of that has been in a relief role (3.96 ERA, 36.1 IP/24 H/21 R/16 ER/3 HR/11 BB/53 K, 1.08 GO/AO, .179 BAA); as a starter, his line is the following:
0-1, 4.82 ERA, 5 G/5 GS/18.2 IP/19 H/10 R/10 ER/0 HR/9 BB/20 K, 0.62 GO/AO, .264 BAA.
It seems he may have potential and good stuff, but perhaps he’s among the group where the aforementioned PTBNL will come from and not one of the top three guys in the deal.
I certainly hope this is not the deal Shapiro went for because of the inclusion of Jackson, who I’m not impressed with and is one who doesn’t seem to fit in with Shapiro’s plan to pick up young players who will not be eligible for FA or arbitration for several seasons – I have to think LaPorta and Green are involved, along with at least one of Brantley or Lucroy, or perhaps even both (Lucroy was just signed in 2007, so could he be the PTBNL?) Perhaps Bryson (who was drafted in the 31st-Rd. in the 2006 Draft) is in the group to be selected for the PTBNL, but if Zach Jackson is part of this deal, I’ll be disappointed, as I think he’ll be about as effective as Jeriome Robertson was, from all the indications I’ve heard and seen about Jackson (who was picked in the 1st Rd. – 32nd overall – in the 2004 Draft by the Blue Jays) over the past few years.
Just my 2 cents on that.
One other post in that MinorLeagueBall thread suggests that the Indians and Brewers are flip-flopping two lower-level prospects from their respective systems, but there’s no report on who they may be, if the rumor is even true.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recent FanShots
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Five tips for Showtime’s second season of ‘The Franchise’
- The 10 best things about being a Detroit Tigers fan
- Surprise! A’s finally end the Yoenis Cespedes derby with $36 million deal for Cuban star
- The time Whitney Houston sang to Jim Bowden
- Pitchers and catchers! Mariners get early start in Arizona
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
