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C.C. Sabathia traded to Brewers

Walter_tiny by Jay on Comment 560 comments

Both ESPN and the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel are now reporting that the Indians have reached an agreement to trade C.C. Sabathia to the Brewers.  The Indians will receive OF/1B Matt LaPorta, the seventh overall pick in the draft just one year ago, along with two other players, both presumably lower-level prospects.

The Brewers, loaded with talent at the Double-A and Advanced-A levels and eager to make a big move for the 2008 postseason, always appeared to be the most logical and likely trade partner for the Indians, and they reportedly pushed the Indians to complete a deal tonight so that Sabathia can make a Tuesday night start in Milwaukee.  Starting on Tuesday, rather than Thursday, means that the Brewers will get two starts out of Sabathia prior to the All-Star break, in addition to 15 starts in the second half.

LaPorta was a consensus Top 25 prospect in the offseason, rated as Milwaukee's best prospect by Baseball America and a five-star prospect by Baseball Prospectus.  Three months into the 2008 season, he has done nothing to dispel those high ratings, putting up a .288/.408/.576 line and leading all of Double-A with 20 home runs.  The other two players the Indians are getting are not yet known, but the package is believed not to include 3B Mat Gamel or SS Alicedes Escobar.  Advanced-A 3B Taylor Green and Double-A CF Michael Brantley have been mentioned in some reports.

LaPorta immediately becomes the best prospect in the Indians organization, or at worst a very close second to Triple-A LHP David Huff, another first-rounder having an outstanding season.

Sabathia was drafted by the Indians out of high school in 1998, weeks before his 18th birthday, and he was summoned to the majors to start the 2000 season at age 19 with barely more than a year of professional experience under his already sizable belt.   Sabathia spent 8.5 seasons with the Indians, and more than any other one player, he led last year's squad to the best record in baseball, winning the Cy Young for his efforts.

For Indians fans under 40, Sabathia is simply the best Indians pitcher of our lives.

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Later, C.C. Thanks for the prospects.

by afh4 on Jul 6, 2008 7:38 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

FWIW, unless I am reading it incorrectly, ESPN is simply sourcing the Journal Sentinal. I don’t think ESPN is independently reporting it; not that that makes is untrue.

by TonyH on Jul 6, 2008 7:40 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks CC. Go Brewers!

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Jul 6, 2008 7:41 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The big moment arrives…and I’m numb to the whole thing. Just like with Colon, and Justice and other players I really liked. Good move for the future, just hated that it had to happen.

by mjschaefer on Jul 6, 2008 7:43 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You liked Justice?

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Jul 6, 2008 7:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like Justice, now.

Dear Mr. Sabean, I hear you have a reputation of being stupid. Want to deal Lincecum or Cain? You can pick THREE of these 4 players for either: Borowski, Dellucci, Blake, Byrd.

by westbrook on Jul 6, 2008 9:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was like 10 and liked every Indian.

by mjschaefer on Jul 6, 2008 10:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If CC faces the Rockies on Tuesday, Jeff Baker gets to hit another home run.

by odradek on Jul 6, 2008 7:43 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heard this guy is in the deal Jonathan Lucroy

this was over at the brewers’ reporters blog and simply by a poster…who claimed that he, Laporta, and Green were in the deal.

by hans on Jul 6, 2008 7:44 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Interesting… a catcher. BA had him 16th to Taylor Green’s 17th heading into the year. I knew we weren’t sold on Cain

by cheech99 on Jul 6, 2008 7:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah a catcher who’s hitting

by hans on Jul 6, 2008 7:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wonder if this season will end up as a blessing in disguise. The team was obviously flawed and probably would have had a hard time against a strong playoff field this season. No way we trade Sabathia without falling out of contention first. Maybe Hafner will even fix whatever’s ailing him with the time off and we’ll have him back next year as well.

I’ve always kinda liked the Brewers, but especially since they rented out their stadium/fans for us at the start of 2007. I hope they get some good dividends from C.C. for the next few months.

by Pronk33 on Jul 6, 2008 7:45 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A total and absolute collapse is far more tolerable. Think how agonizing this would have been had there been hitting and starting pitching, and the bullpen sucked as bad as it has. Or if we had to agonize through Sowers and Byrd while trailing the White Sox by two games. Or if we continued to lose great starting pitching with 2-0 and 2-1 scores. This season is like losing an 11-0 game. Far easier to stomach than a 3-2 loss when the other team score twice in the eighth inning.

by odradek on Jul 6, 2008 7:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I had a similar thought. This roster never quite reached its potential and just kind of ran out of gas.

by fleerdon on Jul 6, 2008 8:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was expecting the deal to happen today, before Sunday Night Baseball – nice to steal some of the attention from the Red Sox-Yankees game…

Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)

by Spidey on Jul 6, 2008 7:48 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it’s … wow. i feel all grown up now.

by Gradyforpresident on Jul 6, 2008 7:51 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I can’t reiterate enough how much I love C.C. Sabathia. As a human, as a pitcher, as a teddy bear.

Also! LaPorta. I’d post a gif of his swing or something but I don’t want to slow the loading.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 7:54 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here’s another possibility that we can’t rule out either: We sign Sabathia at the end of THIS year.

We all know that CC is a very emotional person. That being said, I think it’s perfectly possible that he gets “homesick” while he is with the Brewers, and comes back to the Indians for next year. Maybe he’ll take less money or years to work it out.

Of course, there are a million other possible outcomes from this and where he eventually does sign for next year and beyond. But wouldn’t it be awesome to have aquired 3 of the Brewers top prospects AND have CC back next year? Come on, I can dream can’t I…

Either way, I hope CC wins a ring with the Brewers this year, and that LaPorta is the next A-Rod.

by Proder1039 on Jul 6, 2008 8:04 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know this is well-intentioned and all but I have to take issue with this again:

C.C. is all over the record talking about the Vallejo, CA as his home, even going as far as to say things to the effect of, I love Cleveland, but Vallejo is my home.

If given his choice of being anywhere in the world, all other factors being similar, he’s not choosing Cleveland. That doens’t mean he won’t re-sign here (there are a dozen other reasons for that) but it means that if he does it won’t mean because he misses Cleveland.

by afh4 on Jul 6, 2008 8:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

won’t be* because he misses…

by afh4 on Jul 6, 2008 8:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with you, but I think when most people talk about him missing Cleveland, it’s more to the effect of him missing the Indians as an organization.

I don’t think the Indians have a realistic chance at signing him in the off season, but I think any chance we have is because of the organization and the fact that CC does seem to like it and his teammates. Otherwise, it’d be more akin to the Santana sweepstakes last year, which Shapiro mentioned as being the only free agent/trade bait out there the Indians didn’t even make a phone call about. The Tribe will be involved in talks with CC, at the very least at the beginning of the process, simply because we’re Cleveland and nobody else is.

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Jul 6, 2008 8:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can halfway get on board with that but I just think if you believe there’s an emotional component involved here with Cleveland you have to believe that it’s overwhelmed by the emotional component associated with NorCal.

by afh4 on Jul 6, 2008 8:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That may be true. But I definitely feel like whatever CC feels for the Indians will be enough to get Shapiro a meeting with his people in November.

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Jul 6, 2008 8:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure. A meeting.

by afh4 on Jul 6, 2008 8:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What more do you want or really expect? It’s more than we likely would have gotten had he not come up through the system. We’re the Indians. We don’t get to keep our big guys after a certain point. That’s the way the game has been played.

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Jul 6, 2008 8:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Word from Olney was that they made a big jump in their offer and told him, if you don’t want to make a deal now, that’s okay, we understand. We’re going to trade you, but we’ll talk again in the offseason.

Could the Indians actually pull off an anti-Thome, where they (1) refuse to give a player trade veto rights in a contract extension, (2) trade the player for good stuff before he can walk, and then (3) sign him in the offseason anyway?

It’s highly unlikely, but you have to commend Shapiro for just making it possible. He got #1 and #2 done, which is more than John Hart ever did.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 8:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Isn’t the ‘97 Lofton to Atlanta for Grissom et al. trade a precedent for this?

by ganatz on Jul 6, 2008 8:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure, it’s a precedent, but that’s not the point. Trading a player away surely doesn’t make a team more likely to sign that same guy in the offseason. We were never all that likely to get C.C. to agree to an extension, and it became extremely unlikely when he cut off contract talks in the offseason.

It remains extremely unlikely now — not because of this trade, but not in spite of this trade either.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 8:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess we just have to commend Shapiro for just making it possible – which is more than John Hart ever did…

by ganatz on Jul 6, 2008 9:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Longoria is the next A-Rod. And Laporta is no Longoria.

Dear Mr. Sabean, I hear you have a reputation of being stupid. Want to deal Lincecum or Cain? You can pick THREE of these 4 players for either: Borowski, Dellucci, Blake, Byrd.

by westbrook on Jul 6, 2008 9:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here’s B-Ref on Laporta

and the two players that have been rumored in as well:

Taylor Green

Jonathan Lucroy

by hans on Jul 6, 2008 8:05 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The one thing I like about this deal is all 3 players (either Lucroy or Brantley, it works with either one) seem to be polished hitters, according to their stats.

by Cols714 on Jul 6, 2008 8:14 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I sent out a mass text about 45 minutes ago to any friends that would care to hear the news.

My friend in Chicago’s response: F*CK!
My friend in St. Louis’ response: This is not good.

Tremble, NL Central.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 8:14 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For Indians fans under 40, Sabathia is simply the best Indians pitcher of our lives.

Amen. CC will be missed. GL in Milwaukee CC. Here’s to the Crooked Cap becoming the next Babe Ruth.

by obobcatu on Jul 6, 2008 8:14 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

John Perrotto over at Baseball prospectus is saying that Green is indeed in the deal, but the third prospect hasn’t been announced.

by hans on Jul 6, 2008 8:15 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would guess that “hasn’t been announced” = Brantley, with more due diligence needed due to his recent minor injury.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 8:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ok now he’s retracting a bit and says that Green is “also said to be in the deal, though that has yet to be confirmed”

and I added the hasn’t been announced yet part, so I wouldn’t read into it.

He also says that Escobar and Cain aren’t in the deal according to his sources

by hans on Jul 6, 2008 8:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This makes me sad. Don’t get me wrong, I know this had to happen, and I’m excited to see who we get in return, but it’s CC. Oh well, at least he gets to hit now. I guess the Brewers just became my NL team.

by amarie on Jul 6, 2008 8:15 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought I was ready. Now I’m just depressed.

At least it was to the Brewers. I’ve been rooting for the Brewers since those snow-out makeup games last year.

by Julie on Jul 6, 2008 8:32 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Blargh. It’s a nice haul for CC, to be sure. But, still, I’m more affected than I would have thought.

Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.

by jdudas on Jul 6, 2008 8:32 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do you think LaPorta will be moved back to his original position, 1B? He was only moved because Prince Fielder is the Brewers long term 1B. The Indians don’t have that problem and LaPorta can probably start at 1B the rest of the year if the Indians were so inclined.

by Cols714 on Jul 6, 2008 8:35 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From what I’ve seen from the various prospect sites, first base seems to be his ultimate destination.

by Ryan on Jul 6, 2008 8:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

will we see LaPorta in the big leagues this year?

by ASP on Jul 6, 2008 8:35 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would guess he goes to AAA shortly, then possibly a September callup.

by Ryan on Jul 6, 2008 8:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think that’s right. Hopefully he comes to ST next year already penciled in as a starter.

by Cols714 on Jul 6, 2008 8:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t know if I’d start his clock this season, given that the team isn’t really doing anything worthwhile. I can wait.

Jay, any ideas on how LaPorta’s contract/time/arb status is?

I did a Google image search for "Andy Marte." It turned up zero results.

by emd2k3 on Jul 7, 2008 12:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good luck, CC. Get good wood on the ball, and don’t get hurt running the bases, ‘cause I want to watch your 200th victory. And maybe #300.

by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Jul 6, 2008 8:37 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While all this outpouring of emotion is quaint, realize that there is no longer room for it from the participants’ side. Even CC’s agent stands to clear over $10mil from this upcoming FA transaction. GMs cannot afford to allow emotion enter into these discussions if they care to keep their jobs. From the moment a phenom turns into a productive star, the days are numbered until a big market team scoops him up. It doesn’t have to be this way. But it is this way. CC gets his guaranteed $130mil and we get to pray for the next phenom.

by elsandito on Jul 6, 2008 8:52 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Um…we know that.

by Voltaire on Jul 6, 2008 10:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Aw, crap. Rotoworld is reporting that A-Rod’s wife is going to file for divorce on Monday.

The Sabathia trade will be something like the 4th most talked about event tomorrow on ESPN.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 8:52 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

“And, elsewhere in the majors, C.C. Sabathia was traded to the Milwaukee Brewers. We’ll be right back…”

by odradek on Jul 6, 2008 8:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I listened to the “baseball show” on ESPN radio for 3 hours and they mentioned the Sabathia trade one time. Of course, once the official news broke they called in Olney to talk about it. But still …

by Toxicadam on Jul 6, 2008 9:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There will be more talk about it once the other players are reported, and once it becomes official.

And who cares?

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 9:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was outside sealing my driveway for 4 straight hours dying to now what happened. SOME talk would have been appreciated.

by Toxicadam on Jul 6, 2008 10:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as a life long brewers fan and indians fan as well I appreciate all of the following and cheering you seem to be doing for the brewers now! you guys got a great player and future all star in laporta! hopefully cc gets us over the hump, into the playoffs, and maybe to the series! he will be loved in milwaukee just as much as he was in cleveland!

by Baseball Card on Jul 6, 2008 8:57 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I appreciate the sentiment, but unless CC wins game 7 over the Red Sox for you guys, I have a hard time believing Milwaukee will like CC as much as we have for the past 8 years. I definitely will be rooting for that to happen, though.

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Jul 6, 2008 8:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

haha well maybe not the love fest you have had since you’ve lived and died with the guy for so long…but if he gets the brewers deep into the playoffs and into the WS…you don’t understand how passionate the brewers fans are and how they attach themselves to players…

hell look at how high we got ryan braun in the all star voting…not to mention corey hart will probably get in the last vote too

by Baseball Card on Jul 6, 2008 9:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Someone will loose their job for this trade. The last time I heard a prospect was “guaranteed” was Marte. How is that turning out? I’d rather see Cleveland suck it up and sign CC than give him to Milwaukee for a player who is hitting well in AA ball. CC IS the greatest pitcher I’ve ever seen in an Indians uniform and now the team just gives him away. This is a very sad day indeed. Just when I thought this season couldn’t get any worse, my team goes ahead and trades my favorite player and its best pitcher for a guy in AA. Wow, I don’t think I could more disappointed with this team and its management. CC you were a great player and person to root for and I will always be a fan.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 9:06 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank god someone here sees the issue clearly.

by afh4 on Jul 6, 2008 9:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   2 recs

Yes, this is the hard hitting analysis we needed.

Proud supporter of the Cleveland.

by fwembt on Jul 6, 2008 9:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What hard hitting analysis would you like? I do not think this is the end of the world, but you are kidding yourself if you think some kid in AA who can make up for the talent lost in CC.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But that’s a false choice, Conso. It’s not about trading CC for LaPorta (and others), it’s about the ability to re-sign Sabathia. If we can sign him, we get one outstanding prospect plus two (or three?) other prospects in exchange for not having CC around for 3 months of a lost season—something for nothing, in essence. If we were not going to be able to resign him, which I think is far more likely, then we got a top prospect plus two (or three?) other prospects in exchange for two draft choices. In either case, it’s a no-brainer, and the only question would be did we get the most we could?

Your analysis only makes sense if you assume that we would have re-signed CC had we not traded him, and that having traded him he is un-signable.

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."

by Fiddlesticks on Jul 6, 2008 10:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You’re right. And that is the assumption that I am making. I think the team has shown its hand and it wants no part in paying CC market value to keep him.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which, as much as it sucks, could very likely be the best thing for this team.

by Voltaire on Jul 6, 2008 11:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You had heard of Grady Sizemore when he was in A-ball and anticipated that he would become a much better player than Colon? No. LaPorta is an absolute stud and as close as we can get to a sure thing. This season is over so all CC was doing was costing money.

Proud supporter of the Cleveland.

by fwembt on Jul 6, 2008 10:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

don’t let the AA thing fool ya…Laporta would be on almost any other AAA roster right now but the brewers have a system of keeping players together as they bring them up…and they had 10 all stars on the AA team…so I’m pretty sure a few of them could be up at AAA…I think you will be happy with this deal when you see how much CC signs for in the offseason and the success Laporta will bring…Here’s to hoping it works out for the Indians as well as the Brewers…my two favorite teams!

by Baseball Card on Jul 6, 2008 9:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hoynsie, is that you?

by KevinV on Jul 6, 2008 9:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

There’s still time for you. I felt the same way after the Colon trade. Dig a little deeper.

by dgcambridge on Jul 6, 2008 9:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You’re the type of guy who ran the Pirates for 15 years before Huntington took over last year. C.C. Sabathia was an AA pitcher at one time. Good players come from somewhere.

by xrickx on Jul 6, 2008 9:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In fact someone may lose their job over this trade. If a couple of key Brewers get hurt or the club stops hitting. Suddenly, the “rent-an-ace” idea will be criticized by every Monday morning qb in Milwaukee.

by elsandito on Jul 6, 2008 9:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We could have traded him for Coco Crisp, Or Kenny Lofton, if he were on a team.

by odradek on Jul 6, 2008 9:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I love you for how wrong you are.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 9:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hamilton anticipated this reaction this afternoon. He said fans will hear the Indians have traded CC for someone in AA and groan. But LaPorta isn’t your typical AA player, says Hamilton.

by odradek on Jul 6, 2008 9:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I completely disagree. CC is the ace of the team and he is better than Colon was in this situation. Name me a pitcher on the Tribe that is/was better than CC over the past 15 years. Name me a player that has more experience on this team than CC. Shapiro, Wedge, and the management do not have the best track record in analyzing players over the past 3 years and I’m not sold on the great Brewers farm system either. Are any of these prospects established? No. Because they are prospects. If the Brewers have all these can’t loose prospects, then why haven’t they at least made the playoffs in the past 2-3 years? I’m sure this kid is a great minor league talent; however, I know for a fact that CC is a great major league, left-handed fast ball pitcher who will be worth the money is is going to be paid. Also, I don’t have to dig a little deeper on this one. Colon, Ramirez, Thome all left when Cleveland was headed into “rebuilding” mode. I understood that. However, the time is now to try and win a championship and keeping CC can only be a part of that equation. I will not be an apologist and the only way this situation can be reconciled is if the team goes out and signs CC in the off season.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can’t begin to analyze this post..

Name me a player that has more experience on this team than CC.

Does not reflect on LaPorta.
Are any of these prospects established? No. Because they are prospects.

Did you just shoot your own observation down?
If the Brewers have all these can’t loose prospects, then why haven’t they at least made the playoffs in the past 2-3 years?

Because prospects are players that haven’t been in the majors in the last 2-3 years. E5, is that you? Have I been baited?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 10:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly, prospects = unproven talent. Marte was a can’t miss prospect and this kid could turn out the same way. You made my point for me. This is about what the team is losing as much as who this LaPorta kid could be in the future. Feel free to give your end of why this is a great trade for the tema though, I’m not going to stand in your way

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So because Andy Marte has not yet panned out, we should never add a young player to the team? We should even ask MLB to let us pass on the draft picks when he leaves, right? Or just sign him through magic and hope?

This team sucks this year. What’s your suggestion for improving the overall quality of this team for years to come without adding young talent?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 10:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t have one because I believed in how the management evaluated talent. Now, I’m not sure they are still on their game that brought them Grady, Carmona, Lee, Cabrera, Francisco, etc. There are 1 of 2 ways to go I guess. Either this is one really bad anomaly of a year and all the current players will work out next year plus a kid like this prospect or all these good players/prospects Cleveland had are in fact pretenders and some serious rebuilding needs to happen. I’m choosing the former rather than the latter, but I don’t believe allowing CC to go gives the team the pitching staff needed to win in the American League.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just for the record, lose is spelled lose. Not “loose”

by Cols714 on Jul 6, 2008 10:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yet he nailed “anomaly”

Bill Fremp? Is that you?

I did a Google image search for "Andy Marte." It turned up zero results.

by emd2k3 on Jul 6, 2008 10:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ah yes, I’m a retarded ape who may have just tried to type a little too fast and misspelled a word. Why don’t you check the syntax of that sentence and see if I’m smart enough to play in your genius world.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And here you had some of us feeling sorry for talking disrespectfully to you.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 11:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

On that note, having “loost” interest in this argument, I’m off to bed.

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."

by Fiddlesticks on Jul 6, 2008 11:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sammy Sosa was an unproven prospect when the Rangers traded him for Harold Baines. Jeff Bagwell was an unproven prospect when the Red Sox traded him for Larry Anderson. Scott Kazmir was an unproven prospect when the Mets traded him for Victor Zambrano. GIVE IT TIME, man.

by maledicta on Jul 6, 2008 10:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The time is now? Like, now, when we are 13 games out of the playoffs? Or now, when we are missing key players?

Proud supporter of the Cleveland.

by fwembt on Jul 6, 2008 10:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Conso, my friend.

Let me first say that I commend you on learning the “reply” button so quickly. I’m serious, way to go. I didn’t get it right away myself.

Anyway, here’s the thing.

You’re looking at this like we’re trading baseball cards. Here’s C.C. — awesome, best Tribe pitcher of the past 35 years, Cy Young, etc. And here’s LaPorta — he doesn’t even have a card, and if he did, it would be empty. Hasn’t done a damned thing. How can the two even be compared? It’s ridiculous.

But we’re not trading baseball cards, and we’re not even trading players — like Pat Gillick used to say, “Teams don’t trade players, they trade contracts.”

Unlike a C.C. baseball card, C.C. was not ours to have forever and ever. He was under contract to us for eleven short weeks, and that’s it. LaPorta, on the other hand, is under contract for roughly eleven weeks plus seven years.

So we did not trade C.C. the Cy Young for LaPorta the Never Done Nothing. We traded our 11-week contract with C.C. for an eight-year contract with LaPorta … plus two other guys and their eight-year contracts.

You must look at it that way — you must! — because that’s the truth of the situation. Looking at it like baseball cards will not only aggravate you without end, and it isn’t even truthful.

And that’s why the other folks here aren’t furious, but rather just resigned — and relieved that we did a lot better with C.C. than with Belle, Ramirez and Thome.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 10:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow, thanks for belittling me like that. You must feel very proud of yourself up there on that high throne of yours. Did I say that Cleveland should let him go? I think that they should pay him the money and keep him on this team. That is my take on the situation and I’ve felt that way all year. However, feel free to tell me how these players aren’t baseball cards b/c I’m having a hard time understanding that concept (and analogy)

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That was belittling? Sorry man, that was downright coddling. How much do you think they should offered CC?

by dgcambridge on Jul 6, 2008 10:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Feel free to “destroy” me because I forgot that having an opinion on a team that one has lived with for 30 years is a bad thing.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It’s not. It’s just that you are a bit misinformed and probably came to the wrong place to vent.

Proud supporter of the Cleveland.

by fwembt on Jul 6, 2008 10:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Conso just thinks that CC will accept gift certificates to Panini’s as form of payment. Legitimate belief actually.

LGT's resident beer connaisseur.

by LGT Patrick on Jul 6, 2008 10:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That might be the most clever thing I’ve heard all night.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 12:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK, fine, I’m done with you. You’ve won me over. Shapiro could have done one of two things: traded three months of CC for proven talent (how about David Wright?), or signed CC for 6 more years, which CC was ready to do. And yet he did neither!! How does this man still have a job!!!

by dgcambridge on Jul 6, 2008 10:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You know what a great way to have a discussion is?

Never respond to a question that is asked of you, just act indignant.

by KevinV on Jul 6, 2008 10:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What question have I not answered to your satisfaction? I’m trying to get to the dozens of people ganging up on me, so I do believe I’ve missed a few. Though I am enjoying this.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 12:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No kidding. I was really expecting the big finish there.

Proud supporter of the Cleveland.

by fwembt on Jul 6, 2008 10:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree with dc. Dude, that wasn’t belittling. Jay is being nice. He could’ve destroyed you if he really wanted to.

by TribeJay on Jul 6, 2008 10:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t know what you guys are talking about. I’m totally harmless.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 10:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The is the most polite I have ever seen Jay with a newbie. Toughen up or you won’t be around long. Not a threat – a word of advice.

by Voltaire on Jul 6, 2008 10:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dude, no one’s arguing CC isn’t awesome. He is. The issue is whether 3 months of CC is worth more than 5-10 years of controlling LaPorta and the other two. Shapiro chose the latter, and the general mood here seems to be pretty excited about it. Yes, it sucks we had to lose CC. But we’re the rule here, not the exception. Very few teams can afford to pay their superstars whatever they want once they hit the market.

“If the Brewers have all these can’t loose prospects, then why haven’t they at least made the playoffs in the past 2-3 years?”

Are you serious about this? At best, this is a reflection on the prospects they had in their system 5-6 years ago, who made up the teams you’re talking about. LaPorta isn’t responsible for the failures of a major league club he’s never even played for. Don’t confuse not having any major league accomplishments to date with being worthless.

by maledicta on Jul 6, 2008 10:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your defending this kid like he is the second coming. He’s not responsible, however I think evaluating talent in baseball is a very tricky business and I’ll take proven talent over a prospect any day. Please explain to me why that is such a bad train of thought.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But where does the proven talent come from?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 10:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For that matter, where did the lighter fluid come from?

by Voltaire on Jul 6, 2008 10:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hahahaha - Arrested Development. Pure. Brilliant. Best show ever. Period. haha

by Proder1039 on Jul 6, 2008 10:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m not arguing with you whether attaining prospects is a necessary thing in baseball. It is. I get that. That is not my point. And only time will tell if this kid was worth the trade. However, if he is a bust then this day will be even more disappointing. If it turns out well, then I’ll be the first to eat my crow and be the happiest man alive if he can help bring a title to my beloved Indians.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Then I guess I don’t get the complaint. You recognize that we don’t need CC, you recognize that we need prospects and you recognize this does nothing to damage the (miniscule) chance we have to resign him after the year. So what is the hangup?

Proud supporter of the Cleveland.

by fwembt on Jul 6, 2008 10:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, I believe we need him and no prospect will/can replace his talent on this team. And I believe that he would sign with Cleveland if given the contract he deserves.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do YOU want to pay that contract?

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 6, 2008 10:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I read somewhere that no team has ever made the World Series with one player taking up more than 20% of its payroll (or something like that). Is that what you want to do with CC…..pay him $20 Million a year on a payroll of $80 Million?

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 6, 2008 10:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If I had the money, yes I would. And some other team would as well and if they could pay the money they would be a fool not to pay it.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How can you post that above the two pictures below and not realize what you’re doing?

by Voltaire on Jul 6, 2008 10:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

because I would sign CC. Not Hampton or Zito. I didn’t think they were worth it, however I think CC is worth the money. Just like Santana or Manny or Clemens or Pujols (will be). Certain players are the exception to the rule for me.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’d recommend going back and reading the DiaTriber’s old posts about the various scenarios C.C. signs and doesn’t sign. Even if they don’t change your mind, they’re good reads and you’ll learn some stuff. I know I did.

by Voltaire on Jul 6, 2008 11:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thats fine

Where does Cleveland get the money to sign him?

by world dictator on Jul 6, 2008 10:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Are they broke? Pay him what the market asks he be paid.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not all teams have equal money to work with — quite the contrary. Are you aware of this?

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 10:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Please answer this question honestly, Conso. Where does Cleveland get this money?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 10:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Without spending a ridiculous amount of time searching for specific numbers, I’d say they get the money from ad revenue, tix sales, merchandise, cable contract that they just inked, and the fact that they are millionaires and can afford to spend the dough.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Total lack of understanding of the game’s economics.

There are a half-dozen teams that make $100 million plus in additional revenue, above and beyond what the Indians make.

Other people actually have looked up the specific numbers. None of them generally think the Indians can, or should, pay market value for Sabathia, or anyone.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 11:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am not arguing that Cleveland has the same revenue stream as LA, NY, Boston, but I still think they have the ability to pay for CC.

Wasn’t the new cable deal supposed to help with these sort of transactions? They were willing to give him $18 million a year in earlier trade talks. That would lead me to believe they can afford to spend big money on him.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It might lead you to believe they could spend $18 million on him, but that doesn’t mean they could afford $23 or $25 or $whatever million on him.

by Voltaire on Jul 6, 2008 11:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also, please send me to those people who don’t think Cleveland can afford to sign him. I’d be interested in hearing what they have to say and it’ll help me to see where you are coming from. I’ve read that they don’t want to spend the money and that they want to cap their roster at a certain amount and not that they cannot afford to spend more.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We’re here.

You’re not listening.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 11:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So you’re the expert on this then? Is that a fair assumption? I’d like to see your articles outside of this blog that you maintain (which you do a very good job of by the way) Don’t think that I don’t appreciate the opportunity to debate sports with people, but I’m not just going to agree with you because you say you are the expert.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 12:06 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You should check out his work during last year’s postseason on esquire.com with Scott Raab. There is a link on the mainpage

by Roger Dorn on Jul 7, 2008 12:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

1. He never said he was “the expert.”

2. Surely you can see that almost a dozen other people are also presenting you with opinions supported by facts.

by Voltaire on Jul 7, 2008 12:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Of course there are 10 people ganging up on me. People join groups to like to be a part of groups with people of the same opinion as them. I expect 100 people to have the same opinion as Jay, however, I imagine there is a slight possibility that a few people have the same opinion as myself. What I do realize from watching this website for the past year or so is that people who argue against the “norm” aren’t well received or treated very well and that has been very apparent today. I’ll check out the esquire article. Thank you for mentioning that to me. What specifically do you want me to refute? At this point I’ve tried to maintain about 10 different conversations and I’ve lost track of the forest and only see the trees at this point since I’ve gotten caught up in the attacks instead of just focusing on the actual arguments. Unlike every person I’ve had the fortune to argue with or be attacked by, admitted when someone made a decent to good point and I have given a reply some with my opinion and some with facts I could remember off the top of my head. However, every single one of you is also giving an opinion regardless of your attempt to back it up with statistics. The real thing that is going on here is that (A) I’m pissed that my favorite player is now going to be in Milwaukee and that the team is not currently going to be better without him. and (B) I imagine many of you feel the same way about CC, but just have a different opinion about his worth to this ball club.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 12:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Usually the gang ups happen on posters who refuse to grasp something obvious

by Roger Dorn on Jul 7, 2008 12:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I disagree. It happens when someone refuses to fall in line lock step with this vocal minority of veteran posters on this site. My opinion may not be popular with you, but it is still a valid opinion and you are not going to change my mind by telling me that you are all wise and I’m just off-base because I don’t agree with you. Are you happy CC is gone? Is there a stat out there that says the team will be better off without him? There isn’t. And there isn’t one that proves the opposite either. It’s all opinion.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 12:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I will say that there is a little problem with group think around here sometimes.

But, there are plenty of disagreements. The bottom line- posts that are strong on feelings and opinions without strong analytical and statistical backing is going to get ripped apart.

by DaytonDogg on Jul 7, 2008 12:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What analytical statistics would you like me to start citing. I’ve seen some people throw out stats here and there, but in the end it is all opinion and I do not have a problem throwing out stats about his career ERA, SO, WHIPP, ERA+ and what tables may say about his production over the next few years, but in this instance it is an opinion (to me) about a player’s worth to this team and some of that cannot be addressed in a statistic.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 1:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well, in this situation the relevant analysis or numbers would include
- what % of team salary one player can makeup for a competitive team
- how long of a contract is reasonable for a star pitcher
- what part of today’s events makes it less likely that the CC is a Indian in 09

These are some of the questions that have subjective answers, but can be backed up by facts and evidence and research. You haven’t given any.

by DaytonDogg on Jul 7, 2008 1:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For CC, whatever would get him to sign with the team. I’ve all ready said 5-6 year contract is reasonable for CC and CC only in my mind (I would say the same for Santana, Webb, and a few others). CC is less likely to be with Cleveland last year because they just traded him and that lowers the possibility that they want to or will make a move to sign him at whatever the market will demand in the off season.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 1:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here is the fundamental problem:
My question- what % of team salary one player can make for a competitve team?
your answer- whatever would get him to sign.
My question- what part of today’s events (CC being traded) makes it less like that CC is an Indian in 09?
Your answer- because they just traded him and that lowers the possibility that they will sign him.

Do you not see why your “answers” are frustrating to read? They don’t answer anything. They just re-state the question in the form of an answer.

A better answer would be something like this:
No team has ever had one player make up 20% of their team’s salary and led the team to the championship. However, CC could because he is better than every other player in such a situation. If we had him DH in his off days, we would actually be getting two players.

by DaytonDogg on Jul 7, 2008 1:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The answer is that the club has all ready shown that they are not going to offer him a contact for 5-6 years because a team has never traded their #1 ace player who is the exact same caliber of talent as CC during the season and then signed them the next off season and not when the team doesn’t want to go above the 75-80 million in team salary.

Also, no team had ever come back from an 0-3 deficit to win the world series, however it eventually happened. CC is the exception to the rule and this team will be close to contending for the pennant next year if it can keep its starting rotation in tact. Why is that important to me, because pitching, especially great pitching, is increasingly hard to come by and a line up of Carmona (currently injured), Westbrook (TJ surgery) Lee Laffey, and others cannot possibly be as likely to do as well as the same sort of line up with CC in the mix. This year has been horrible, however the one bright spot, for the most part, has been the starting pitching, which includes CC (minus the first 4 starts). Take him out of that line up, and who knows how much worse this team can and will be in the future. Also, how about having a pitcher that eats up innings like CC has more value than the sort of AA or AAA player they can get in return considering the horrible mess of a bullpen Cleveland is currently dealing with. At his best, with a good to great bullpen, CC is a year in and year out possible 17-20+ game winner with the ability to take over a game on the mound if needed and most position player prospects cannot guarantee the same thing. Also, he is an elite top of the rotation pitcher that has had zero arm problems.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 2:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Again, we all know how good CC is. The question is how we sign him and stay competitive. If we sign him at all costs, we would have no resources left to improve the bullpen or extend other young players, etc.

by DaytonDogg on Jul 7, 2008 8:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There are plenty of disagreements here. Not as unified as you allege. Generally, those who claim to belong to the “vocal minority” try to blast their way through any respectful opposition.

by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 12:52 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You’ve got it all wrong though. We’re all very sad to see CC go. I’m just as pissed as you are that he’s no longer an Indian. At the same time you have to be realistic about the situation. We certainly won’t be a better team without him…tomorrow. Who knows a couple years down the line though. Maybe LaPorta develops into a legitimate MLB slugger, maybe we end up with this Green kid and he and Cabrera end up manning a stellar middle infield for years to come.

The bottom line is CC had to go, and by trading him today the organization did the best they could to maximize his value. It was the best option.

by Chief Wahoo on Jul 7, 2008 12:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

See and that is where some things get lost in the translation. I do not actually think that people frequenting this site want to see him go. IF you did, then you aren’t a fan of this team. I understand that many people don’t think keeping him on the team is realistic, but I think it is necessary for this team to have a chance of winning a title next year. See, for me, I’d take a title in 2009 or 2010 with some over spending. But that is me, and maybe I will have a clearer head once this horrible season is behind me.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 1:06 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is, in fact, possible to be a fan of the Indians and want to see Sabathia go if the alternative is paying him $20 million a year for six years.

by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 1:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you take the money out of it, do you want to see him go because you dislike him as a player and think that he doesn’t add any value to this team? If answer is no, then so be it.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 1:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

his entire point was that money IS in the equation. It is freaking franchise-suicide to pay one pitcher $20 million for 6 years. Especially when your entire payroll will not approach $100 million in any of those 6 years. It would hurt and handcuff the team, regardless of how he actually performs.

by DaytonDogg on Jul 7, 2008 1:35 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is a moronic comment. If money wasn’t a part of it, Manny Ramirez would still be here.

Your comment is akin to saying, if I take all sense out of my statement, then so be it. There.

Actually, I can’t stand CC. He’s fat and doesn’t do enough calisthenics. And he blew the Indians’ chance at the Series lat year. Good riddance!

by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 1:51 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay, since you’re intent on just attacking me. Here is the thread to get to this. I comment that I don’t think people really want CC to go, but they believe it is inevitable and those who want him to go are really not true fans. Mr. Argumentative says he wants CC to go because of the cost. This is off the point of the previous comment so I try, but I then clarify that if money were not the issue, then people really wouldn’t want to see him go which goes back to the original comment by not by me that most people really don’t want him to go but it is unavoidable. So I’ll restate my belief for those of you who cannot resist to make an argument at every occasion. Feel free to think CC sucks and doesn’t deserve your team, but I think you’re pretty off in left field and the only thing you’re showing is how childish you really can be by calling him fat and not recognizing his true value to this team. And since we’re into calling names, quit being a douchebag and go bother someone else with your petulance and misguided resentment for what happened last year.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 2:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You might think differently if your last name was Dolan.

I did a Google image search for "Andy Marte." It turned up zero results.

by emd2k3 on Jul 7, 2008 12:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My contention from the start has been that if we want to sign him, we are in the same position to do so at the end of the season. You may be upset that we should be offering more money, but the decision to trade him is the correct one right now, because of the likelihood that he doesn’t take our offer.

Even if you think we should be offering more money (which you do and thats fine), there is still a very good chance he doesn’t sign with us and with this season down the tubes, we have to take the certainty of getting established prospects.

Again, you seem to think that trading him now is shoving him out the door, it’s not at all. He turned down multiple offers, and if we offered him the right amount this winter, he would sign with us, I promise you. If you want to debate offering him more, than I would suggest getting off the we shouldn’t have traded him at all opinion.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 7, 2008 12:53 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I understand your argument but in the past, the team has offered him what it believes is reasonable and not what the market will actually bring or what his actual market value is. I don’t think trading him is a good idea, they should have offered him more and kept him on this team and in this clubhouse. I know the team is horrible, but I do not think that prospects are going to help this team this year (and I know that is not the point), but it won’t help them in the next year or two and I see a very narrow window of opportunity of contending for a title with this team.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 1:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the offer from this past off season was very fair and was on par with some other extensions of top 10 pitchers in this league.

by DaytonDogg on Jul 7, 2008 1:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

on in term of years.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 1:22 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The whole point of getting LaPorta is his ability to make the Major League team in the next year and, if not, than certainly in the next two years

by Chief Wahoo on Jul 7, 2008 1:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In the very near term we’re worse without CC.

by jhon on Jul 7, 2008 12:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, this year. Which is the last year we have him under contract. And I am sure this is not news to you, but we are not making the postseason this year

by Roger Dorn on Jul 7, 2008 12:58 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m pretty sure that “casual fans”, “die=hards” and thirdorderLGTers+ can all agree on this.

by jhon on Jul 7, 2008 1:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree this team is horseshit and I’ve never been as disappointed with a Cleveland team as I am with this one. But I don’t think trading/letting CC go is the answer. But, as I’ve said many many times, I have no doubt that it could turn out to be an okay deal in the long run. Though I don’t think that will actually happen.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 1:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay, give him 22 million per year for six years. Give him Santana money in a Cleveland market, rather than a New York market.

Enjoy the even-more crappy Indians teams for the last 3 seasons of that deal, when we can’t afford the pieces required to even contend within the division because we are paying a probably past-his-prime out of shape starting pitcher too much money for the return we’re getting.

I did a Google image search for "Andy Marte." It turned up zero results.

by emd2k3 on Jul 7, 2008 12:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Then prove him wrong. You’re yet to back up one of you’re arguments with anything more than, “I think _”, “I believe __“

by Chief Wahoo on Jul 7, 2008 12:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, I’d like to hear an answer to this question. In case you’re not aware, Cleveland isn’t New York or LA.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 6, 2008 10:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Think of the trade in these terms, Conso: We can always pay CC at the end of the year, whatever we were going to pay him right now. In essence, we gave CC away for only 11 weeks in exchange for a number of decent prospects that may help us later. We didn’t give up our future, we only gave up 2008. And only because we have a number of our stars injured and need to pass too many teams to get to the playoffs. So, nothing prevents Shapiro from paying CC whatever he wants at the end of the season.

by elsandito on Jul 6, 2008 10:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You are right. However, I don’ think the team will try and get him because they have all ready made the decision and gesture that he is not in their future plans.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So then he does sign with Cleveland, and he gets to play for the next six years with Matt LaPorta, who may or may not be good but in either case would not be around without this trade. I don’t see your objection, I really don’t.

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."

by Fiddlesticks on Jul 6, 2008 10:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but the point is you have to judge a trade from what is known when it is made. we all know a whole bundle of information about the situation the indians, the brewers, sabathia, laporta and everyone else who may be involved is in, and that is ALL we have now.

dude – we were never gonna sign him, don’t you get that?

You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person

by jakesinger777 on Jul 6, 2008 10:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow, you just compared CC to Zito. That is some mad respect for CC.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just busted a gut laughing.

by Voltaire on Jul 6, 2008 10:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seriously. I rarely comment these days, but this guy is out of control.

by jjfoosk on Jul 6, 2008 10:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He’s gotta be an old troll, to show up now.

by Voltaire on Jul 6, 2008 10:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey, man, former Cy Young, just a few years ago.

It happens … it’s all part of the actuarial table.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 10:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You are right, it does happen. However, I do not believe that CC and Zito copies of each other. And neither is Hampton for that matter.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They don’t have to be copies. They’re all proven talent — elite lefty starters — where you’d have been a lot smarter to take any prospect at all rather than paying $100 million for “proven talent.”

Every goddam day of the week.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 10:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ok. So CC is no different than any other player at his age. So be it. I disagree. I thought the Santana was a good signing. I thought, and still think, Manny is/was worth the money. I think that many players are not worth $100 million, but I think some players are worth the market price, and CC is worth it because he still has at least 4-5 good to great years left in him and he has proven himself to be an elite pitcher. Both scenarios are gambles. This is a gamble, and keeping him is a gamble. I’m just choosing the latter and I think it is a big mistake to let him go.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Would you please, please explain what renting him to the Brewers for 11 weeks hurts? Even in the Cloud-cuckoo land you seem to inhabit, there is no way we come back this year. This trade has no effect on what happens next year so why get your panties in a twist?

Proud supporter of the Cleveland.

by fwembt on Jul 6, 2008 11:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The average free agent is not at all worth his market price. Winner’s curse — look into it.

You can’t be sure how many good years C.C. has left — nobody can.

You might feel it was a gamble worth taking — that’s fine, that’s your opinion. But since you understand that there is significant risk, you should recognize that just because you’d take that gamble doesn’t make it a “huge mistake” if the Indians felt otherwise.

And by the way, they might not feel otherwise!

Anyway, I’d like to know your price. Tell me exactly how many years and how much money C.C. is worth — how much would be too much? $150 million? $250 million? $350 million?

If you don’t have a pretty specific answer to that question, then you really have no basis for saying what the Indians “should” and “shouldn’t” do — and that anything that deviates even slightly from your expert judgment is a “bid mistake.”

What I’m getting is — and I really want you consider this seriously — you might just be talking out your ass on this. I’m serious — please think about — you might be.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 11:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You are right, it doesn’t make it a huge mistake. I just believe that it is a huge mistake, and I’m actually hoping that I will be proven wrong in the future. I am sure they feel like this is the best idea, just like every other trade, free agent signing, and contract extension they have made over the past several years. Well, so long as I can preface this with the fact that I don’t think any MLB player is “worth” the money they get. Having said that, I don’t set the market and so I think a 6 year $110-120 million would be fine by me.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Once again though, what exactly is the huge mistake? Why do you think we should keep CC in a Tribe uniform for the remainder of this season?

by Chief Wahoo on Jul 6, 2008 11:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think he should be in a Tribe uniform for this season and 5-6 seasons to come. That is/always has been my point.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But trading him today doesn’t determine if he will be in a tribe uniform next year or the following years. I don’t get what you don’t understand about that. Our chances of re-signing did not change by trading him. It’s not a difficult concept to grasp.

by Chief Wahoo on Jul 6, 2008 11:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think it does. I think it lowers the chances that he’ll re-sign with Cleveland because I don’t think that the team is serious in trying to keep him here and it would also appear that everyone on this site believes that he should go and the team shouldn’t try and sign him because of how much it will cost the team.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Honestly man…Do you think they’re shoving him out the door or something? Do you think Shapiro and the front office enjoyed trading him today? If they could afford to sign him they would sign him.

by Chief Wahoo on Jul 6, 2008 11:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think that they are not happy about the idea of trading him. I don’t think they are shoving him out the door in a mean-spirited way. But, in fact, they did just shove him out the door. I think they can afford to sign him, but I do not think that is possible under how they currently manage the overall spending because they would need to go higher than what they have offered in the past.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Castro is reporting that they just threw all his locker crap out on the field – socks, ointments, signed Schilling cards – everything.

by dgcambridge on Jul 7, 2008 12:06 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I never said that they are disrespecting him or mistreating him. I just think that he is a necessary piece if this team is to still contend for anything next year and the year after. I enjoyed your remark though, it made me laugh

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 12:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not the Panini coupons!

by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 12:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Originality is not your best trait is it.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 12:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you’re referring to me I’d have to assume you’ve no idea what my best trait is.

by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 12:15 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You’re right, I don’t since you are a blip on an internet chat room that isn’t really contributing anything to my conversations except a dig here and there.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 12:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OFFENSIVE LOGO BURN

by afh4 on Jul 7, 2008 12:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sorry you feel that way. I’m not a blip, and my reluctance to contribute anything salient to “your conservations” comes from not wanting to gang up on you. There seem to be a lot of people opposed to you, for whatever reason.

by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 12:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am quite light on my feet, indeed.

by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 12:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It’s your dancing. Am I right?

by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 12:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wasn’t it Phil Collins who sang, “I can’t dance”? Dude has it right.

by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 12:41 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If they never intended to resign him, then there was a 0% he was going to be an Indian past this year. So we basically just got the #1 prospect in Milwaukee’s organization for nothing.

If they do intend to resign him, that determination will be made after this season ends either way. So again, we lose nothing.

by maledicta on Jul 6, 2008 11:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think C.C. knows exactly how much the team and Shapiro specifically thinks of him.

I think he’s sophisticated enough to know that even though he loves playing for the Indians, he also wants to cut the best deal possible, and that means listening to all offers.

And I think that if he can understand that, he surely understands why we’ve traded him — and he understands that on the off-chance he does decide to come back, he’ll be coming back to a stronger organization for that trade.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 11:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

let’s just consider this fact (and it is a fact): the indians would not have and will not now offer CC a $120mm contract. whether you like it or not (you clearly don’t) or they have the money to do so or not (they clearly don’t) it’s simply not happening. with that in mind, you can’t possibly upset that they went out a got a top-10-in-baseball prospect, plus 2-3 more players, instead of sitting on their thumbs for the duration of a lost season waiting to collect 2 first round picks.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 7, 2008 12:02 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can argue that I think they can afford him. And I will do my best over the next week to try and give a more statistical analysis on that belief if I can find the time. You believe that they cannot afford to resign him and that this is the next best option. If I thought that, then I would agree with you. But I think that they could afford him if they wanted to.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 12:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They can’t. It’s that simple. Assuming the Indians “cap” at $70 million a year, signing CC for what he will bring would lock up 2/7ths of that for the next six years. Does that sound like a good idea to anyone?

Proud supporter of the Cleveland.

by fwembt on Jul 7, 2008 12:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He’s making observations about your love for proven talent.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 10:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually, I think that is the rub and I will respectfully disagree that the team cannot sign him. I think they could. So there is the disagreement. Feel free to tell me how off that map I am. And yes, you found me out. I’m an “old troll” from back in those days when you guys had all the right answers.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Can we please go to The Plan, guys?

by Voltaire on Jul 6, 2008 10:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where do we stand on Zito v. Hampton, anyway?

by maledicta on Jul 6, 2008 10:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At least Zito has a chance to try and win? Hampton hasn’t really had one yet.

LGT's resident beer connaisseur.

by LGT Patrick on Jul 6, 2008 10:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You can’t belittle a prospect just for being a prospect per se. Would you take Gary Sheffield over Jay Bruce just being Sheffield is “proven talent”?

by maledicta on Jul 6, 2008 10:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Sheffield was 28 years old – yes.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You’re doing it wrong.

If CC wanted $6 mil a year, we’d sign him.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 10:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So you do recognize that a player’s value correlates to his age. Now imagine Sheff was 23, and we were offered him for a free agent pitcher we knew was headed out the door. Would you take that deal?

by maledicta on Jul 6, 2008 10:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would. But I stand on the belief that the team could resign CC. I also realize to do so would take them out of their current practice. But, I don’t believe that practice is well suited for this situation.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Aren’t you making a big assumption, namely that CC WANTS to stay in Cleveland? No doubt he loves Cleveland but its a very real possibility that he would love playing near his home in California more.

Also, I think someone summed it up best above. If Cleveland really has the ability to sign CC then there’s no reason why we can’t sign him after the season. He’s probably not going to sign with the Brewers so unless you can explain why trading him makes him less likely to sign with the Cleveland, your point is defeated even using your own flawed logic.

by world dictator on Jul 6, 2008 10:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am. Your right. I haven’t seen or heard anything to say he wouldn’t stay here if given a contact at the current market value. If he says “I don’t want to stay here, and I would like to move on” Then my argument is moot, and I will agree whole-heartedly that a trade makes sense.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

1. The lack of negative information does not prove positive information. I’ve never read anything saying flying pigs don’t come out of my butt, but that doesn’t mean its going to happen.

2. I have heard of lots of people saying he’d like to play closer to home and perhaps play in the national league where he would be able to bat. So at the very least it seems like CC is seriously considering other options outside of Cleveland.

by world dictator on Jul 6, 2008 11:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay then smart ass, I’ll put it another way. If Cleveland pays him the most money, I bet he would stay. Can you prove that wrong? And using rumors to defend an argument is a little weak as well don’t you think?

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay then not-smart ass. How does Cleveland win a bidding war with the Yankees and their peers?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 11:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The answer to that is easy. Out bid them. However, I don’t think the Yankees will spend the money on him in their current situation.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m chasing my tail. How do we out-bid them, or any team with more money?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 6, 2008 11:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You are chasing the tail. Just because the Yankees ( or Boston or LA for that matter) can out spend Cleveland on an entire roster doesn’t mean Cleveland cannot compete for this one player.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So we should make it all about this one player?

Not about the best possible roster, for 2009 and for all future years?

Not about winning?

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 11:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just saw this. As of right now, yes it should be about this one player because I believe this team had the potential that all the analysis programs predicted and I think this is a fluke season and the team only needs 1-3 players to win the pennant and winning in all future years is not more important than winning a title in the next 2-3 years.

Now, if you argue that the current roster is full of perennial under-producing players and it will take 4-7 new players for them to contend, then I think this is a good deal. But I’m choosing the former rather than the latter and I think spending money for CC and a power bat in the off season (and possibly a closer) will put Cleveland in a spot to contend with anyone for the pennant over the next 2-3 years. After that, I think the window of opportunity will have closed and Grady, Carmona, Victor and the rest will all be out the door.

by Conso on Jul 7, 2008 3:27 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do you think there is any way that the Indians could possible extend CC on his terms and then add any sort of power bat and a closer?? There are finite resources whether you want to accept that or not. A Cleveland baseball team is not going to crack the top 15 in player salary. It just won’t happen.

by DaytonDogg on Jul 7, 2008 8:21 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You’re out of your element, Donny.

I did a Google image search for "Andy Marte." It turned up zero results.

by emd2k3 on Jul 7, 2008 12:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, he would. No, we can’t.

Proud supporter of the Cleveland.

by fwembt on Jul 6, 2008 11:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also, is this kid the second coming of Sheff? If so, then I may come around to it at some point.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so only condone trading stars for prospects only if the prospects end up becoming stars? hmm, he may be on to something – we should trade for future stars! I get it now..

You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person

by jakesinger777 on Jul 6, 2008 10:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol .. I was going to post a long response, but you nail it here.

by Toxicadam on Jul 6, 2008 11:00 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nope. I’m saying if you can flat out say to me this kid is going to be an all-star, then I may come around. I’m not saying that trading for prospects is a bad thing, I’m saying that trading CC for prospects is a bad idea.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can’t even flat out tell you CC is going to pitch well next year

by world dictator on Jul 6, 2008 11:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’ll flat out say it. He’ll pitch well next year.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:11 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah?

What was your prediction for Betancourt this year?

How about Cliff Lee?

How about Josh Hamilton before he got picked up by the Reds?

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 11:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well considering I have no record on this site of any predictions I can’t imagine that anyone would take me seriously. I thought Lee would do very well, not this lights out, but very well. I thought Bentancourt was still problematic because of what he did/failed to do in 2007. I thought Perez would do well though and I thought Hafner would have gotten out of his funk. I also thought Hamilton would be so so with the Rangers and that the Mariners would compete for the AL West. I did think the Blowasaveski would be horrendous and that the bullpen would be the down fall of this years team. However, I did think they would win 90+ games and have a shot at winning it all. I surely do not think that I have some great power of predicting everything correctly and I will admit my mistakes. Just like I will do if this trade brings in some great players and Sabathia goes on to have a Zito-like career.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I meant 2006 for Bentancourt in the prev post.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 11:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I did a Google image search for "Andy Marte." It turned up zero results.

by emd2k3 on Jul 7, 2008 12:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

“I can’t help but doubt he is [involved],”

by odradek on Jul 6, 2008 10:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would say the jury is still out on the Crisp trade. Shoppach has been pretty handy. Check back in five years.

by odradek on Jul 6, 2008 10:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Shoppach was a nice addition, but I think it is a wash between he and Bard though. And I think Crisp was a good player who, outside of battling injuries in Boston, has been more productive than Delucci, Michaels ever was over in LF.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How did Bard work out for Boston?

by Toxicadam on Jul 6, 2008 10:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wakefield killed him.

by dgcambridge on Jul 6, 2008 10:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He got tired running to the backstop. Boston had to bring back Mirabelli.

by odradek on Jul 6, 2008 10:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Even if I agreed that Shoppach/Bard is a wash … we have Shoppach for two years longer.

Contracts, not baseball cards.

You claimed I was talking down to you, but we’re all still waiting for you to make even one comment to illustrate that you understand this concept.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 10:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What did Coco have to do with Dellucci and Michaels?

by odradek on Jul 6, 2008 10:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They were the ones who were put in the OF in his stead

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Crisp hasn’t been very good in Boston. See below…his OBP the last three years, .317, .330, .314.

So Marte didn’t work out like we expected—does that mean we should never trade for a prospect again?

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 6, 2008 10:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You may have to explain OBP.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 10:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ooooo yes, please explain it. I don’t have a clue what it means.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Aw, come on, Conso … this is going to go a lot better if you can have a sense of humor.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 10:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OBP…isn’t that one of those weird stats Bill James invented working on a computer in his mother’s basement?

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 6, 2008 10:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I believe it was brought over by Gammons after the Civil War ended when he was covering the Valley Forge League.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And yes, I know Valley Forge was occurred during the Rev War.

by Conso on Jul 6, 2008 10:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

You forgot to mention the underwear.

by Jay on Jul 6, 2008 11:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, I think he was on a skateboard at the time.

Steel Nick