The Big Trade — waiting for clarity
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 1:04 PM EDT
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282 comments
"The player to be named component is a very important part of the value equation for us ... I know it's hard to get your arms around it when you see that PTBNL in there, but that's an advantage for us that we negotiated, to give us a little more time ... we'd probably have gone in a different direction if that player wasn't included."
If you came here looking for info on Sabathia and LaPorta — see below.
Ryan reported heavy trade talks on Friday night.
Andrew said farewell to C.C. on Sunday morning.
Ryan linked to reports of an imminent deal Sunday afternoon.
I wrote up the basic deal a few hours later.
Ryan summarized the reasons for the deal late last night.
Our buddy The Diatriber posted a nice intro to LaPorta last night.
Despite that little flurry of content, however ... we still don't know quite what to make of this deal, because we don't have all the details. As of this moment, the Brewers have concluded their press conference and Shapiro is speaking live on TV right now, including the quote above. We can talk about Sabathia and LaPorta, but we can't really assess this deal until all the players are known.
The talks initially were reported as involving our getting three prospects — one impact guy, one potential impact guy, and another solid prospect from the lower levels, akin to Phillips, Lee and Sizemore from the Colon deal. It quickly became apparent that that second "potential impact guy" was two much to ask.
The deal then became one major prospect and two other good prospects — and that's where it remained. But a confusing twist emerged when a fourth player was added to the deal — Triple-A pitcher Zach Jackson — and the insertion of those letters "PTBNL" in place of an actual.
While potentially useful, Jackson is not a prospect, and there is every indication that he is the fourth guy — the throw-in — rather than one of the main three guys who are key to the deal. And in contrast, the PTBNL, almost always a throw-in, in this case apparently is a significant prospect — reportedly a choice of three prospects that includes 3B/2B Taylor Green, the Brewers' minor league player of the year last season. So from what we understand ...
THE DEAL IS NOT:
1. Impact prospect OF Matt LaPorta
2. Lower-level prospect RHP Rob Bryson
3. Scrub minor leaguer LHP Zach Jackson
4. Throw-in PTBNL
THE DEAL IS:
1. Impact prospect OF Matt LaPorta
2. Quality prospect PTBNL (such as 3B/2B Green)
3. Lower-level prospect RHP Rob Bryson
4. Throw-in LHP Zach Jackson
LaPorta is comparable to Phillips (as a 2002 prospect). The PTBNL, as we understand it, may not be at the level of Cliff Lee (2002) but is still a significant talent to add. Bryson likewise is not quite comparable to Sizemore (2002) but isn't too far off. Jackson isn't Lee Stevens at all, but the needs were different — at that time, the Expos needed us to take Stevens' contract; at this time, we need another warm body — any warm body — to throw the ball at the plate in Buffalo and possibly Cleveland.
As for the PTBNL, aside from Green, the most commonly cited name is CF Michael Brantley — a potential leadoff hitter who may not have enough pop to make his patience and contact-hitting work in the majors — and RF Lorenzo Cain — a five-tools guy who skipped Double-A but has yet to put up impressive numbers at any level. None of these names can be reported officially, and the only name that has been reported consistently as being on the Indians' pick list is Green.
As Shapiro acknowledged, this is hard to get a handle on — it is, in a sense, a tremendously clumsy bit of PR, adding insult to Indians fans' injury on already bruising day. But give Shapiro credit for consistency — ever since the Colon deal, he's always been willing to take a PR black-eye when he thinks he can get better value for the team. A few voices within the industry are saying they think the Indians could have done better — and that may well be the case. But it's hard to really make a judgment on that until the Indians pick that second guy, and according to Shapiro, they have a ful two months (the end of the minor league season) to do that.
We'll have more on Bryson and Jackson later today.
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What is the structure of the PTBNL? Do we just have a deadline to pick one of the three? Is it somehow performance driven, where we get Green if CC does X, but settle for less if he doesn’t? When will we know?
LeCavs!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
by Matt in LA on Jul 7, 2008 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
we have a list and till the end of the season to choose one of the players on the list
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...regardless of what CC does or does not do while in a Brewers Uni.
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Jul 7, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shapiro said that directly and forthrightly. Melvin was much more evasive in his press conference, suggesting that there are multiple dates and complications involved. FWIW.
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
by Fiddlesticks on Jul 7, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shapiro also used words like “incremental value”...Melvin had to be told how to pronounce Sabathia’s name. For the time being, I’m going with Shapiro’s interpretation.
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And is the list officially Green, Brantley and Lucroy? And only them?
LeCavs!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
by Matt in LA on Jul 7, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The list is “officially” undisclosed—and undisclosable. It’s all speculation, some more informed than others.
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
by Fiddlesticks on Jul 7, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where did Lucroy’s name even come from? I think it was from the JS Online forums, in which case, you might as well cite bathroom stall graffiti.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Jul 7, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps this applies?
Players taken in the Rule 4 Draft cannot be traded until a year after they sign their first pro contract. However, teams can work around this rule with the player to be named later rule.
It seems more likely that the Indians are using the PTBNL move as a way to reduce their risk, we will see I suppose.
by Ohiokie on Jul 7, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It can’t be disclosed. Remember the trouble that ensued when Ted Turner acknowledged that Brett Butler was the PTBNL in the Barker trade.
by SuddenSam on Jul 7, 2008 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess the longer Shapiro waits the better, but don’t you think fans/media will put a ton of pressure on to have PTBNL be a PTBN really soon? What do you think the unofficial fan PR deadline will be?
proverbial "moron in a hurry"
by 94neverout on Jul 7, 2008 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But I wanna know noooowwww!
<>
proverbial "moron in a hurry"
by 94neverout on Jul 7, 2008 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok, gotta learn how to insert pictures.
Veruca Salt was supposed to be inserted there.
proverbial "moron in a hurry"
by 94neverout on Jul 7, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
by Fiddlesticks on Jul 7, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you!
proverbial "moron in a hurry"
by 94neverout on Jul 7, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m surprisingly tempted to make that my new avatar.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on Jul 7, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how much Sabathia is going to miss having Carl Willis around to correct the kinks that occasionally infect him. If I recall correctly, Sabathia himself has acknowledged a big debt to Willis.
by FranklinScott on Jul 7, 2008 1:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Castrovince is reporting that Willis has been dealt to Milwaukee for Bernie Brewer.
Slider has been DFA’d.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
by rolub on Jul 7, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now there is a deal I can get behind. The slide attached to a beer vat better be included in this.
by Toxicadam on Jul 7, 2008 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ESPN News going to Paul Hoynes for analysis of the Cleveland viewpoint
“no one here likes it but we’ve been through it before”
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 1:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i’m hoping by “it” he means “losing”, and not the trade itself.
although he probably is referring to the latter.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
by rolub on Jul 7, 2008 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was driving back, listening to Baseball Beat with Charlie Steiner on XM175. He was, of course, talking about the trade. He brought on Hadricourt from Milwaukee. He was smart, articulate, sarcastic and well spoken. Following a break, he had on Paul Hoynes who was, and is, an idiot. Hoynes was given his “woe is me” speech about the franchise and Steiner was ending the interview and said something to the degree of, “We’ll talk in the future, hopefully when there is better news to report about the Indians”. To which, Hoynes replied, “You better call back in 2012.”. What a freaking moron.
by Fundamentals on Jul 7, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the guys over at BrewcrewBall (the Brewers SBN site) hate Hadricourt for some reason. they refer to him as “he who shall not be named”. And here I thought we had trademarked that phrase for He Who Shall Not be Named.
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, I’d rather have the articulate and capable GM with the idiot beat writer than visa versa.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven’t listened to local talk radio yet, but shame on me for thinking Indians fans would handle this better than the Colon trade. lol
by Toxicadam on Jul 7, 2008 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
“How dare you pass wind before me.”
“I’m sorry baby, I didn’t know it was your turn.”
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can’t help remembering how, when CC was going poorly at the beginning of the year, guys down at the ballpark were mercilessly all over him for being greedy, picking on him for being heavy, and basically wishing out loud that he’d go away.
On the issue of whether the Indians got enough, I have a feeling they got what was possible. It doesn’t sound as if there were enormous numbers of other clubs actively in the running (and it sounds from the reports I’ve read as if some of the interested ones backed off), so that limited Shapiro’s ability to get Milwaukee to up the ante. Getting LaPorta is great, just what the team needs, and if the PTBNL is Green, I think Shapiro did all right.
by peter m on Jul 7, 2008 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The most popular theory is that the team that got the most talented player won. Well, the most talented player in this deal is Sabathia — but in four months, the most talented player either team will still have is LaPorta.
Just as one possible scenario, the Indians figured out pretty early on that the most talented player they were going to get was LaPorta — certainly in an immediate trade and (they figured) probably at any point. At that point, the goal was get as much as they could added onto the LaPorta deal, while daring the other teams to pile up the sub-LaPorta guys they were offering in such an impressive way that it would capsize the most-talented-guy theory.
Based on that scenario, seems like they did okay. Ironically, I’m sure they fought for the right to BNTPL (be naming the player later), which the Brewers probably didn’t like much, but it was, as I think zempf said of Zach Jackson, just the last scrape at the bottom of the peanut butter jar — adding value to the deal even while annoying all of us.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re right. I also think Milwaukee was the one team they really had some leverage with. They’ve obviously decided their real window is now and to “go for it”; getting CC really makes them stronger. The other teams in the hunt either didn’t have the prospects (hence LaPorta is the best guy available) or weren’t willing to give them up (I think that’s the LA situation—the guys we really wanted are important parts of the major league club). I’ll be really interested to see what Seattle gets for Bedard (admittedly, not the pitcher CC is) if they deal him. I bet it’s not close.
by peter m on Jul 7, 2008 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that’s about right. It’s interesting that the Indians are getting to watch the players for the rest of the season before picking out who they want. It definitely rids the Tribe of some risk, but at the same time, most organizations probably prefer to have the guy they want in their own system. Overall, though, I like this idea a lot.
And in LaPorta, the Indians get someone who will contribute probably as soon as next year. Which is what they needed in order to keep contending as soon as next year.
by Cols714 on Jul 7, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That last point is a good one, especially if Hafner doesn’t recover.
by peter m on Jul 7, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I’m not mistaken, don’t the Brewers get two compensatory draft picks once Sabathia signs with another team this off season ? If that’s true, then the Brewers got the best of this trade by a good deal.
Shapiro acted too slowly or too hastily (depending on how you look at it), IMO. I’ve said earlier that the time to trade Sabathia was before the season started so that the team he was traded to would have a better chance at signing him to a long term deal. If C.C. wasn’t willing to make a deal during the offseason and prior to spring training, then it was obvious that he was hellbent on going to the highest bidder.
Shapiro could have waited until the middle of the month to see if more teams could be lured in to the bidding process – maybe a team or two gets hot and gets back into the race. The notion that Melvin dictated that the deal had to be completed by Sunday night indicates that he had the upper hand over Shapiro, and that is not the usual position that Shapiro finds himself.
This is what happens when you roll the dice (Indians brass hoping that this was THE year) and that Sabathia would help get them to a championship; knowing that he was unwilling to sign an extension.
The package they got from the Brewers is in no way comparable to the Colon deal – not even close, IMO.
by SpringTrainingFun on Jul 7, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Misnomer alert!
We can’t say for sure that Shapiro got the best deal. But so much of what you say makes no sense.
You think there’s a big difference in value because the acquiring team would have had 6 months instead of 3 months to convince him to sign? Huh?
You think another bidder might have risen up after a couple of hot weeks? Sure. Or a team or two may drop out of the race with a couple of cold weeks. At best, they are equal possibilities. And you ignore the fact that every start the CC makes in the mean time is one he’s not making for his new team.
There was an incentive to get the deal done before Sabathia’s next start. Each start makes him a little less valuable. That has nothing to do with who was making demands, or who had the upper hand.
To the extent that it isn’t the Colon deal, well, Colon had a whole additional year. And that deal turned out to be spectacular. It’s not the norm.
As for your rolling the dice comment, I agree completely. They traded the additional value they could have received by trading CC in March for a chance this year. It’s a trade I make 100 times out of 100. It didn’t sink us for next year.
by dgcambridge on Jul 7, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus, I think we got more than the Twins got out of Santana. The market was actually better now.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To review the collected wisdom of LGT and how it applies to your post:
CC Sabathia will test the market regardless. Milwaukee has no better chance at signing CC than we do just because he’s playing for them now. If we trade him before the season he’s still going to test the market. Period.
Compensatory draft picks may help your team in 4 or 5 years – we want to compete in 2009 when everyone we have hurt right now is theoretically healthy again.
The Colon deal was an aberration and comparing every deal with the Colon deal is, frankly, unfair.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Jul 7, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I commend you guys on wasting your time trying to reason with someone who thinks the Sabathia/Colon deals are somehow comparable.
by Toxicadam on Jul 7, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya know what Adam? I’m not sure this deal won’t be as good as the Colon deal – not yet. This is Shapiro’s game – I doubt that anybody can out play him. Time will tell.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on Jul 7, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you need to just change your signature to “time will tell” to save you some typing. or “time will tell. trust me, i’m older than time”
by Brick. on Jul 7, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Come on, now. Didn’t you know that all trades are comparable? Thus, any trade for prospects that doesn’t turn out like the Amos Rusie for Christy Mathewson deal is a Bad Trade.
by FredOx on Jul 8, 2008 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW, Dolan said on the radio that there were 7 teams in the running. Probably not on Sunday, but total.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really wish I had time to make a road trip to Akron to watch a couple of games in the next few weeks…
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 2:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m really weighing this. Watching CC on Tuesday, and trying to make it to the Aeros game on Wednesday.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Castroturf has an update to his earlier piece that Shapiro confirmed that there are only 2 players candidates for the PTBNL, and that “the agent for Brantley and Green posted in a blog that Brantley is not part of this deal in any way, shape, or form”.
He’s not reporting that Brantley is out as fact though, because he further writes “if that were true, it would be a shame”
Keeps getting more interesting.
by cheech99 on Jul 7, 2008 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
could someone tell me what’s so great about Brantley? I have the 2008 BA Handbook and it seems like he’s bad outfielder defensively and has absolutely no power. The avg and OBP are definately sexy, but we already have a speedy outfielder with good playe discipline (Crowe) and he has more power and a better glove.
I like Green alot more and Lucroy is also very interesting.
by JP_Frost on Jul 7, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crowe’s like 4 years older than Brantley. And that’s significant.
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he’s younger than all but two players on the team a level below him, and has a 39/18 BB/K. He has very little power and isn’t great in center, but there’s still time for him to improve both of those things and become a quality CF/leadoff hitter. FWIW, he as many HR in June as he had in his entire professional career up until that point.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Jul 7, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brantley has already passed Crowe. He could reasonably be at AAA by the end of the year and is younger. OBP is better consistently, AVG is better consistently, SB% is better consistently.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rosenthal reporting that LA offered a bigger deal, but wanted Blake and CC, and the Indians backed off:
“In winning the Sabathia sweepstakes, the Brewers outbid at least six teams, including the Los Angeles Dodgers, who could have offered a stronger overall package than Milwaukee and expanded the deal to include Indians infielder/outfielder Casey Blake.”
I’d like to hear more about that deal as well.
by mcrose on Jul 7, 2008 2:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes indeed. If this is true, it may mean the Indians think they’ll be able to get more for Blake in a separate trade nearer the deadline. But, I’m also skeptical. If there really was a “stronger package,” then you’d assume Shapiro would go to Milwaukee and try to get them to include Gamel or someone else. They balk, so you trade with LA. The Indians evidently preferred the Brewer deal, so either the LA deal wasn’t good enough or it wasn’t there.
by peter m on Jul 7, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This may have been a case of only one of those teams having LaPorta.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that’s not meant in a snide way. Just that it’s possible Shapiro really wanted him.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
isn’t Rosenthal merely saying that the Dodgers COULD have offered a stronger package? Obviously, LA has more pieces to work with than Milwaukee in terms of young talent, but I think they found the Tribe’s asking price for CC too high. Perhaps they said that we could get that package if Shapiro included Blake, but that would sort of rape us since Blake is a very tradeable player.
ah well, I’m pretty satisfied with what we got.
by JP_Frost on Jul 7, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes … “bigger” doesn’t mean “stronger,” and as peter m alludes, it may not have been better enough to justify including Blake. The Indians probably already know what they can get from Tampa for Blake.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shapiro did say they have no active talks ongoing. I’m not sure what his definition of “active” is.
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It means he wasn’t talking to someone else while he was sitting, answering questions at the press conference. When he returned to his office, however, he had 11 different GMs on hold and immediately resumed wheeling and dealing.
by Nat on Jul 7, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Similar to the definition of “is” perhaps?
There are no active trade talks.
I am not actively talking to any teams about a trade, right here at this moment, while I am sitting here answering your questions.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m just talkin’ ‘bout Shap.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on Jul 7, 2008 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just would like to find out more – I thought LA had potentially a better balance of hitting and pitching to give. You could read Rosenthal’s comment a few deifferent ways – I just hope it wasn’t a case of us not wanting to give up Blake that held it back. Whatever “it” was.
by mcrose on Jul 7, 2008 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d really like to see Blake traded (his value seems to have peaked lately and we really don’t need him anymore, IMO), but this seems a little far fetched as far as rumors go. Would Blake even be a good fit for LA? I see Nomar (3b), LaRoche (3b), Loney (1b), a crowded outfield, and various other utility infielder types. I’m not sure what a team would offer for Blake’s expiring contract either. Maybe a quality AAA reliever or A position player?
by Pronk33 on Jul 7, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They don’t seem to want to throw LaRoche in there, so in that sense Blake would feel right at home.
Blakes gives them a cheap replacement for Furcal, as long as they feel Nomar can handle shortstop.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Jay, I thought Blake was a natural shortstop.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
including the Los Angeles Dodgers, who could have offered a stronger overall package than Milwaukee and expanded the deal to include Indians infielder/outfielder Casey Blake."
Far be it from me to speculate, but this smacks of a GM temper tantrum. Oh well, Dodgers, Casey Blake is still available.
by Ryan on Jul 7, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta agree with that. In a deal of top prospect-anchored package for half-season of Cy Young award winner, I find it doubtful that the sticking point was a half-season of well-bearded 35-year-old corner infielder.
by fleerdon on Jul 7, 2008 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While listening to ESPN radio yesterday, I heard that Ned Colletti is not easy to work with when making a deal. Buster Olney said Colletti leaves other GMs hanging during negotiations while he is shopping for other deals. So, whatever offer was “on the table” I have to wonder if Shapiro really considered it to be reliable.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
by Spidey on Jul 7, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also read that the Dodgers are said to be too “fluid” when it comes to trading, meaning names change from one phone call to the next. Not an easy team to deal with, between GM and owner.
by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For those of you who have abandoned the last thread, here are some scouting reports on Taylor Green.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Jul 7, 2008 2:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
sounds like he’s the Brewers’ Jared Goedert (but playing well this season)
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Green, at age 21, is significantly outhitting Goedert, who is 23, at the same level. I don’t think they are very similar at all.
by Cols714 on Jul 7, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it a royale with cheese or a big mac?
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Jul 7, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t mean in terms of prospect potential, but merely the scouting “descriptions” of their play
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh. Well in that case you are right. But thanks Jay for the insult.
by Cols714 on Jul 7, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t mean it as an insult!
And nobody is going to shoot you.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
/looks around the room sheepishly, holsters sidearm
by fleerdon on Jul 7, 2008 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In other news….Wyatt Torregas hit his 7th HR in his last 7 games today
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 2:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s bizarre – I’ve always thought that the gap between AA and AAA wasn’t that great.
by Ryan on Jul 7, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
must be the distraction of all the hot fans in Buffalo
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
let’s bring him up now while he is hot; he can take CC’s spot and DH; we don’t need a starter until Saturday
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bring up Torregas just because:
Given
1) reports suggest he’s already major-league caliber in terms of his defense behind the plate
And if
2) if he can show any ability to hit at all,
And
3) the Indians aren’t worried about Victor’s long-term health
Then
4) Shoppach becomes another guy who is more valuable to another organization than to Cleveland
With a full-time Victor (and potentially Laporta at 1B), our backup catcher doesn’t see much action.
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bring up Torregas just because:
Given
1) reports suggest he’s already major-league caliber in terms of his defense behind the plate
And if
2) if he can show any ability to hit at all,
And
3) the Indians aren’t worried about Victor’s long-term health
Then
4) Shoppach becomes another guy who is more valuable to another organization than to Cleveland
With a full-time Victor (and potentially Laporta at 1B), our backup catcher doesn’t see much action.
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WILL NO ONE TELL ME WHERE CROWE IS?? DL? BUFFALO? TEAM USA?? MILWAUKEE?? Feed my obsession.
by dgcambridge on Jul 7, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the moon. With Steve.
Hard truth: Your eyes lie.
by AngG on Jul 7, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw something about his chest being bruised. Don’t know if that’s why he’s still out, though.
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was out earlier in the year (from ST I think) for a procedure done on his chest. Don’t remember the details, but perhaps its related to the current “chest bruise”.
by mcrose on Jul 7, 2008 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yikes, just when things got interesting. Was the same injury as in last year’s AFL? Sounds like a drug problem to me.
by dgcambridge on Jul 7, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Procedure done on his chest? Obviously he lost a bet and has to get fake boobs for a year.
by Ohiokie on Jul 7, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to Tony Lastoria, he is out with a bruise on his chest that bothers him when he swings. At the beginning of the season, he was out with a herniated disc, so this is something completely different.
by ken from alexandria on Jul 7, 2008 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I’m thinking of the minor injury that cut short his AFL stint last fall – can’t find the particulars, but I seem to recall it was a chest issue. Probably unrelated, but it jogged my memory.
by mcrose on Jul 7, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
could you please keep us posted about what is being said? I can’t get onto wtam on my mac, for some reason..thanks a lot!
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Jul 7, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
mostly same as press conference; he did say he would travel with the team on the post-All-Star break road trip and work with Wedge on making the team better
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shapiro said PTBNL is a choice of only 2 players (instead of the usual 3-5) which is in line with what we have been hearing, although he did not specifically confirm Green and Brantley
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
none of us are usually in our jobs for more than 6-7 years, so we need to enjoy players while they are here
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 3:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
per Shapiro;
also he cringes when Jim Thome gets booed;
Shapiro’s father was agent for Puckett and Ripkin
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dolan on KNR at 5:25 with Munch Bishop
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 4:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Am I the only one who was pleasantly surprised we got this kind of value from a rental?
Also, think of the money we will save on uniforms now that we won’t have to buy a custom-fitted bra.
Now with accurate avatar! Huzzah!
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Jul 7, 2008 4:07 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’m kind of dismayed that we couldn’t find a trading partner that was the Brewers equal (in both desire and prospects). We could have really driven up the price. In the end, it was kind of like the Brewers bidding against themselves and they called Shap on it.
So, taking that into consideration, I am very happy with the trade. Then again, I was a guy who thought we should trade CC regardless of where we were in the standings.
by Toxicadam on Jul 7, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure we could have driven it up much higher. There really aren’t too many guys out there who I would rather have gotten over Laporta.
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn’t talking about LaPorta, but rather the value of the second and third picks.
by Toxicadam on Jul 7, 2008 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, is this use of the PTBNL rule really revolutionary? I mean we basically get to pick the better of two very good prospects after 2 months of evaluation. That seems extremely valuable.
Also, how sure are we that its Green and Brantley? I mean their names seem to make sense and have been discussed and rumored throughout the last few days. But, none of the rumors included Bryson and Jackson. Shapiro assured that the PTBNL is a big part of the deal, which probably assures us we are not talking about another Jackson or a A- guy. But, could it be better than Green/Brantley? Someone that has not been discussed yet?
To the Brewers fans- what are other prospects that may have not been discussed yet in these negotiations that could be on par with Brantley and Green or maybe slightly better??
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 4:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If that one blog post from Brantley’s supposed agent was real, Brantley is not one of the two.
by ASP on Jul 7, 2008 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would the Brewers have to tell Brantley’s agent that Brantley is one of the PTBNL?
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Jul 7, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they wouldn’t, which is why I think his agent is full of it, and that we have no idea.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the agent came out and said it wasn’t his guys because his guys had not been informed they were in the deal — and no PTBNL that he’s ever heard of was a significant guy like his guys, without any DL or year-after-signing issues. By now he’s probably realized that at least one of his guys is on the list.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
almost certainly not, but is this conclusive?
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what I’m trying to figure out – we do not know this with 100% certainty, do we?
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Jul 7, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, we do. I mean, it’s not official, but there’s no way for it to be official. Numerous sources have reported that it isn’t Gamel or Alicedes.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We did the same thing when we traded Milton Bradley to the Dodgers for Franklin Gutierrez and a PTBNL. That PTBNL ended up being Andrew Brown, who we got to watch pitch pretty well in Jacksonville before we took him. Obviously that didn’t work out so well in the end….
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
During the press conference, Shapiro talked about the PTBNL in the singular (“he”) more than once, including in the quote at the top of this entry (“that player.”) I remain convinced we’re talking about one particular player who will be evaluated over the next week or two. The second player is the fallback if the evaluation of the first one doesn’t pan out.
My guess is that the targeted player is Green, and the Indians want to scout him a second base for a time. If he shows up at second for Brevard Co. tonight, that will make me even more confident in this guess. The fallback player would then have to be someone who is roughly comparable to Green in desirability—someone like Brantley.
I do not think this is a situation where we want to continue to scout two players for the rest of the season and decide between them later. I expect a decision to be announced sometime this month.
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
by Fiddlesticks on Jul 7, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it is Green and Brantley, or really any two comparable players, what is the advantage of announcing sooner rather than later. Wouldn’t you always want to have the most information before you make the decision? It just seems like the best way to reduce risk is waiting until we have to make up our mind.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You would get him in your system before the season ends, so he is more comfortable starting next year.
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lorenzo Cain, Cole Gillespie, Zach Braddock maybe. I maintain a list of the Top 25 (+1) Prospects on the left-hand sidebar of BCB. Check it out.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Jul 7, 2008 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They sound like the bad guys from a Robin Cook novel.
by fleerdon on Jul 7, 2008 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much money do we save in all of this, including not paying the 2nd half of CC’s contract as well as the money to presumably sign a top 15 pick and supplemental pick next year, something like $8MM-$9MM all told?
You wonder how that gets sort of reappropriated back into the team. But it’s like half of those dollars were ear-marked for this year, half for the June 09 draft.
by cheech99 on Jul 7, 2008 4:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A good deal of it will be expropriated as a result of lower attendance. A number of front runner fans will lose interest in this year’s edition now that Shapiro has officially waved the white flag.
by elsandito on Jul 7, 2008 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really think fans wouldn’t have noticed otherwise? This team has looked flat-out awful for the past month. I think fans could catch on, or notice in the Plain Dealer that the team was well out of contention. I’m not trying to be smart-ass here, but I think the lower attendance would occur with or without CC, and with or without any acknowledgment from Shapiro.
by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure if I missed this point or you missed this point. The question surrounds what to do with salary money that isn’t paid that was projected to be paid. My understanding of projected expenses is that it is budgeted to projected revenue. At the time of buiding the 2008 player salary budget, it was based on some revenue projection. Probably, the FO thought this would be an up year due to our contending. Revenue can now be projected to be something less than was orignially anticipated, so the savings associated to trading CC’s salary, would be used up by lower than expected revenue. Tell me what doesn’t make sense here.
by elsandito on Jul 7, 2008 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the salary savings on CC should easily more than cover the revenue shortfall directly attributable to his trade, so they are better off financially than they would have been
however, the savings on just his salary may not be enough to cover the total shortfall in revenue vs. budget; that does not necessarily put them in a loss position
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The bigger problem is the shortfall in next year’s revenues. Season tickets are going to take a big hit, not so much from this trade (this actually moves the news that C.C. is gone 4-5 months earlier and away from the sales cycle) but from the poor performance of the team this season.
by Jay on Jul 8, 2008 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, elsandito. My confusion. I was focused on the causation—that front-runner fans will lose interest now that Shapiro has run up the flag of surrender. Obviously, you’re not saying his action—i.e., trading Sabathia—in and of itself will cause a drop in attendance. Just that the team sucks more without CC and therefore casual fans will be less likely to buy tickets. The same would hold true if CC were still pitching at Carnegie and Ontario.
I thought I had read that the Indians were still not far off their attendance projections, thanks to an improved season ticket base, So the decline might not be so significant.
by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I typed my original comment, I was addressing posters who were reasoning that the trade of CC and other veterans created a pool of funds that could be redirected to signing other players. I was cautioning that this savings is only one side of the ledger. It’s true that many casual fans wouldn’t rush to buy tickets with the Tribe out of the race. There are those fans so uninformed that they are less aware of the season race than the trading away of team stars. Those angry fans, especially fans of CC, might stay away from Prog field out of spite. A large bloc of fans are convinced that the Dolans are cheap and the failure to sign CC is another indication that they don’t care about success. The number of supposedly good reasons to spend mad money elsewhere are too numerous to mention. It’s kind of sad that we live in a society so hungry to be associated with a winner, that many Clevelanders would call themselves Yankees fans. These insecure and shallow weaklings are to be pitied. (Yes, I’m lookin at you LeBron)
by elsandito on Jul 8, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s true, unfortunately. People get caught in their tropes—Dolan cheap, Wedge bad—and it’s hard to dislodge them.
But, really, how could Dolan be cheap? On dollar-hot dog night he practically gives away 20,000 hot dogs.
by odradek on Jul 8, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And then there is the possibility that Wedge actually is, you know, bad.
by ken from alexandria on Jul 9, 2008 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve been keeping up with the flurry of trade threads the best I can, but I seem to have missed how La Porta will fit in with Cleveland for 2009. I know the Diatriber said he could be a major-league contributor as soon as next season and I’ve read about the Brewers’ minor league promotion methods (i.e., La Porta is much more than just a AA player right now).
What do you guys think of La Porta being a possible starter or platooner in Cleveland next season?
I was hoping we could swing a major-league ready, impact player for 2009 (I feel pretty strongly that we’ll be right back into contention next year), although it seems like we made out pretty well for a rent-a-player trade, even if we have to wait a couple years for that impact to be felt in the Majors.
by Pronk33 on Jul 7, 2008 4:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think we see LaPorta at first base or left field in Cleveland no later than May 2009.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Jul 7, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it intriguing that he evidently has a decent arm and has played a lot of right field.
by ken from alexandria on Jul 7, 2008 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be nice to have a left fielder with a good arm after the travesty that was David Dellucci.
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Jul 7, 2008 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m generally the last guy to hype a prospect, but put me down for LaPorta hitting 30+ homers in the majors in 2010. That is not that far off. I like guys who can mash, and LaPorta can mash. At what position? Who knows, who cares if the ball is flying out of the park? My guess is 1B. But he can’t be a worse leftfielder than Delucci.
by oxforddave on Jul 7, 2008 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he hits, I don’t care if they play him at shortstop. Enough with the sucking already.
by fleerdon on Jul 7, 2008 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is probably on the Jay Bruce/Ryan Braun type schedule. Give him a month or two to start next year in AAA and then bring him up. Only thing that could stop that is if: 1) The Indians are getting all-star play at 1B, DH, LF, AND RF, or 2) LaPorta struggles in Buffalo to start the year.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i will guarantee #1 iwon’t be the case
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 7, 2008 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hold on! Blake can play all of those positions!!
by peter m on Jul 7, 2008 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All at the same time?! :-)
And that’s presuming Blake’s still here, which I think might not be the case, especially if the Rays or another team want to acquire him.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Jul 7, 2008 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All at the same time?!
You’ve clearly never had a beard.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Johnson, Jackson – I guess it doesn’t matter.
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 4:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i must say, i’m kind of amazed we’ve had LaPorta this long without hearing about how Shapiro has mishandled his career.
by Brick. on Jul 7, 2008 5:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
some people thought he should have gone directly to Buffalo
here are the details on the LaPorta press conference
MATT LAPORTA PRESS CONFERENCE TUESDAY
Matt LaPorta, one of four players acquired by the Indians from Milwaukee in exchange for left-handed pitcher C.C. Sabathia, will be available for media only at a press conference beginning at 5 p.m. Tuesday at Canal Park. The press conference will be held in the home dugout on the third base side, and LaPorta is expected to be in the starting lineup for the 7:05 p.m. game against the Bowie Baysox.
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, that’s right. thanks. the world seems right again.
by Brick. on Jul 7, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone talks about what a great hitter this Matt LaPorta is, but let me ask: Exactly what has he done for the Indians organization so far?
by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
he has zero – ZERO – RBI in an indains uniform as of today.
by Brick. on Jul 7, 2008 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
some comparisons of Laporta’s numbers in Huntsville this year:
Laporta (age 23) AA-Huntsville, 82 games, 359 PAs (2008)
.291/.404/.584
45 XBHs, 20 HRs, 12.2 BB%, 17.3 K%
Ryan Braun (age 22) AA-Huntsville, 59 games, 257 PAs (2006)
.303/.367/.589
35 XBHs, 15 HRs, 8.2 BB%, 17.9 K%
Nelson Cruz (age 24) AA-Huntsville, 68 games, 286 PAs, (2005)
.306/.388/.577
35 XBHs, 16 HRs, 10.8 BB%, 24.8 K%
Prince Fielder (age 20) AA-Huntsville, 136 games, 562 PAs (2004)
.272/.356/.473
53 XBHs, 23 HRs, 11.6 BB%, 16.5 K%
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 6:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if he turns into half the hitter nelson cruz became, consider this trade a win.
by Brick. on Jul 7, 2008 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the only number that’s a real outlier on this list (aside from Fielder’s lower ISO which we’ll excuse since he was only 20) is Nelson’s elevated K-rate. The Braun comparison is the one I like the best.
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don’t know why, but that .404 is my favorite number up there.
by Brick. on Jul 7, 2008 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The BCB guys were nice enough to confirm that Huntsville is a pretty neutral park.
by fleerdon on Jul 7, 2008 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s obviously been said but this PTBNL manuevering is delicious. It is so Shapiro, extremely reminiscent of his penchant for team options.
by afh4 on Jul 7, 2008 7:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i’ve scrolled the other posts but can’t seem to find any mention of it, nor did i hear anything in the press conference.
are the brewers assuming the rest of CC’s contract?
by xrickx on Jul 7, 2008 7:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I mean, gotta be, right? I thought any transaction that sent more than $1m either way had to be approved by the commissioners office, and I haven’t seen any word about that.
by gte619n on Jul 7, 2008 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
your thoughts on the rule are correct, but i don’t know that it’s always publicized so well when the commissioner is approving something. i’m 99% sure the brewers are paying all that remains and surprised no reporter asked that.
by xrickx on Jul 7, 2008 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes — it was mentioned in the Brewers’ press conference.
Sabathia’s 2007 performance incentives pushed his 2008 salary up to $11.75 million. At this point in the season, we’re looking at about a 53/47 split, so the Indians have paid about 6.25M and the Brewers will pay about 5.5M.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sweet. Deal Blake and hopefully Byrd, save another 5.5 to 6M.
by xrickx on Jul 7, 2008 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This math is starting to get interesting. There’s that dozen or so million for the rest of this season we save. There’s $18 million we aren’t paying CC next year (come on, guys, let’s just assume this one), $6 million we’re not paying Casey, $7.5 million we’re not paying Byrd, and $4 million we aren’t paying Borowski.
We can also free up at least another $10 million in other trades.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BY my calculation, the Indians have nearly 58.5M committed next year to 26 guys:
5 Starters: Lee, Carmona, Laffey, Sowers, Westbrook
7 Relievers: Masa, Raffy R, Raffy L, Lewis, and, for the sake of calculation, 3 league minimum ($400K) guys
7 INF/DH: Garko, Cabrera, Barfield, Peralta, Marte, Carroll (club option), Hafner
2 Catchers: Vic and Shoppach
5 OF: Grady, BenFran, Gutz, Choo, and Dellucci
All the pre-arb guys will make between 400K and 420K, and Garko probably makes $440 or a bit more. Plus, you figure Jake’s 11M is lost.
Garko probably keeps a spot or a cheap filler is found to hold the place for LaPorta. Dellucci is probably a sunk cost. So the Indians will probably have about $15-20M to find 1) a starting pitcher 2) bullpen help 3) a third baseman? 4) a corner OF?
by xrickx on Jul 7, 2008 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what is the insurance situation for a Westbrook type injury. I’m sure the team recovers a chunk of his salary.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know teams do take insurance out on the big deals, and Jake, having been so dependable, probably wasn’t too difficult to insure. I don’t know how it works, though.
by xrickx on Jul 7, 2008 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not an expert, and I can’t recall where I read it, but I read that a portion of Westbrook’s salary will be recovered through an insurance policy the Indians have on his contract.
by Deep South Ken on Jul 7, 2008 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shapiro referred to it in a press conference shortly after the diagnosis was announced.
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I asked Castrovince about this a few weeks back and he said that insurance will cover a portion of Westbrook’s contract, but Shapiro did not get into firm numbers regarding what amount is covered.
by The DiaTriber on Jul 7, 2008 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as much as we bitch about the media, castrovince has really taken it to the next level this year. i think his blog is useful (often times having the breaking news)and occasionally pretty funny.
by Brick. on Jul 7, 2008 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed. He was the go to for the Cleveland side of this. the beacon-journal and the PD were totally out of the loop. (probably more a credit to Shapiro’s tight-lipedness more than anything). For the Crisp-Marte deal, I was totally reliant on Boston media.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once you get past Sabathia, Sheets and Burnett (were he to opt out of his contract), the SP free agent class is underwhelming for 2009. You’ve got Jon Garland, Ryan Dempster, El Duque and Odalis Perez. There are some interesting relievers (Howry, Wheeler, Farnsworth, Fuentes, Isringhausen, Lidge, K-Rod). Among 3B, Joe Crede will be a free agent, as will a few others who have some time at 3B but don’t play there now primarily (Garciaparra, Wes Helms, Rich Aurilia). The Rangers have a 2009 option on Hank Blalock.
by FredOx on Jul 8, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lidge just extended with the Phils
by Roger Dorn on Jul 8, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I forgot about that one. This club couldn’t have afforded him anyway.
by FredOx on Jul 8, 2008 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By “couldn’t have afforded him,” of course, what i meant was “would be financially foolish to spend $12.5 MM of the $15-20 MM proposed in the original post on a closer whose 2009 season could easily be more like his 2006 than his 2008 one.” There’s not a reliever on this list that the club can’t afford. Whether they should make a deal is another matter altogether.
by FredOx on Jul 8, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to MiLB, Green is starting at third base tonight for Brevard County. It’s possible it may change (last night, they had Escobar in RF for Huntsville before correcting), but if not, I’d say this is a strong indication that he is not the PTBNL. (Yohannis Perez, listed as a shortstop, is playing 2B).
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
by Fiddlesticks on Jul 7, 2008 7:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
how so? The Brewers don’t owe the Indians and have to start playing the kid at 2nd. Not to mention it would be a gradual process anyway, he hasn’t played second in awhile.
Also. Bryson: Kinston or Lake County?
by ASP on Jul 7, 2008 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lake County announcer said Bryson will be there tomorrow. Said “good arm”, as they’ve seen him this year.
by mcrose on Jul 7, 2008 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the Indians are just watching him to themselves judge his athleticism. I’m not sure the Indians can command the Brewers to play a guy at a certain position.
by xrickx on Jul 7, 2008 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think it’s far-fetched to suppose that the Brewers agreed to play Green at 2B for some number of games as one of the conditions of the deal. But maybe you’re right.
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
by Fiddlesticks on Jul 7, 2008 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh no no, I agree with that statement. I think the Brewers can facilitate the scouting by moving him to 2B. But they also have an organization to run, and there’s a chance the Indians don’t select Green. And then the Brewers, who obviously like him at 3B, have moved him for nothing.
I agree, though, that the Brewers might be willing to play him at 2B here and there to showcase him and give the Indians the chance to see him in action.
by xrickx on Jul 7, 2008 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of the Brewers fans indicated that Green was only at 3B because the club is more sold on Richie Weeks at 2B than they are on Gamel at 3B. Supposedly they like Green at 2B just fine.
We should not underestimate how much better of a prospect Green becomes if he’s a legit second baseman — as Crowe would have been.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meanwhile, Brantley is again out of the lineup in Huntsville; evidently he is nursing a sprained ankle. Not much to read into that.
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
by Fiddlesticks on Jul 7, 2008 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It didn’t occur to me until a few minutes ago, actually, what a screwed-up situation this is for the Brewers.
Not only don’t they know what which guy they’ll keep or lose, but they can’t put either one of them into any other deal this month.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless they want Blake. :)
Which, come to think of it, why wouldn’t they?
by xrickx on Jul 7, 2008 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The more I think about it, the more it seems like Brantley is the guy. Evidently he’s been shelved for a couple of weeks now, which presumably covers the period where the Indians scouts were actually in player-selection mode. If they really are targeting Brantley, it would make sense to wait until he’s fully recovered and back in action before pulling the trigger. The Brewers, on the other hand, wanted to get Sabathia on the mound ASAP, so they would be willing to agree to postpone the final decision on the fourth player in order to get the trade done.
This scenario also fits much better with Melvin’s comments about there being a specific timetable and complex conditions on the PTBNL—possibly results of medical evaluations to be done in a week or two?
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
by Fiddlesticks on Jul 7, 2008 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to agree. The most plausible scenario seems to be:
1. Waiting for Brantley to heal.
2. If Brantley doesn’t heal to their satisfaction, they’ll take Green.
3. They were skeptical initially of Green’s billing as a 2B, but they decided they can accept that idea if Brantley doesn’t work out.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Green stuck out his first time up, stranding a runner at first. I don’t want him anymore. But he did start a 5-4-3 double play. Okay, I want him again.
FWIW, Lucroy is also playing, as the DH, and he’s also 0-1.
"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."
by Fiddlesticks on Jul 7, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FREE JONATHAN LUCROY!!!!!!!!
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on Jul 7, 2008 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As if one needs to have excellent DH skills. Anyone can play DH.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, like nunchuck skills, bow hunting skills, computer hacking skills…
Free Andy Marte!
by woodsmeister on Jul 7, 2008 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Break the wrist and walk away.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are there any scouting reports about his chin size? Can a bear adequately make up for any deficiencies?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A bear? Yes. A beard? Also yes.
Proud supporter of the Cleveland.
by fwembt on Jul 8, 2008 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh.
Well let’s just say he’d be wrestling a bear with a beard. They both have beards. The bear and Lucroy.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 8, 2008 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s the first game! They might want him to actually have a couple of days to rep it in practice.
by afh4 on Jul 7, 2008 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m hoping we see a new top prospects/prospects that matter article once all the trading is done in a few weeks. I feel that I’m not as up to speed as I should be about some of the young arms everyone’s raving about in the lower ranks of the system.
by ASP on Jul 7, 2008 7:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking of doing an update anyway — then again, last time I said that, it took two years.
LaPorta in the last report would have been right behind Mills on the “might matter soon” list. At this point, he’s absolutely on the main PTM list.
Bryson makes the “might matter soon” list for the moment, poised to break out next year at Kinston, age 21. He’s unlikely to make that jump convincingly in the second half of this season.
Jackson is an odd case. He’d have made the main PTM list after his 2005 season with Toronto, dominating in High-A early in the year before turning 22, then being solid in Double-A and adequate in Triple-A. Still on the list after a solid 2006 in Double-A and cup of coffee in the majors, but WTF with that lame K rate? By 2008, he’s firmly on the “sick of thinking about it” list. (Welcome to the list, Zach, say hi to Brad Snyder.)
Green also makes the preseason “might matter soon” list as a 3B or 2B. He might sneak onto the main PTM list now as a 3B but definitely as a 2B, assuming he can really stick there.
Brantley from a pure PTM standpoint looks more impressive than any of the above. Making note of his May 15 birthday, he was promoted from Low-A straight to Double-A — skipping a level — and this was just three weeks after his 20th birthday. So that means his hot start in Low-A was mostly at age 19 — ding! — and his organization had decided he was done with both Low-A and High-A while he was age 20 — ding! — and he at least survived his two months in Double-A, at age 20 — keeping in mind, PTM at that level expects full success at 23, solid performance at 22. For a 20 year old, just not having to be demoted is an accomplishment, not unlike our AbaCab in 2006.
So now Brantley is 21, and while we can nitpick his power numbers, his power should grow substantially as he goes through ages 21-23, and he only just turned 21 eight weeks ago, meaning that most of his age-21 growth is still ahead of him. He’s got great speed, he’s making decent contact, the walk rate is fantastic for a guy with no power, and there’s plenty of time for him to develop power.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just to drive the point home … Brantley’s skill set seems extremely similar to Crowe’s, including considering him fringy as a CF, and their accomplishments statistically are almost identical as well. Thing is, Brantley is exactly 3.5 years younger.
Three and a half years!
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and his OBP, SB%, AVG are all consistently and significantly higher.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jay (or anyone else),
any certain names come to mind of someone who developed power later in their career who’s career minor league OBP was actually higher than their SLG? I mean, I know Grady had that one half season in A+ where his OBP and SLG were pretty much identical, but an entire minor league career and then developed power?
by ASP on Jul 7, 2008 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he could always turn out to be Kirby Puckett. That would suck for us.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Jul 7, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in a way Johnny Damon didn’t really show much power until he was in his age 24 season, although he had shown a little bit of power in the minors at age 21 in AA where he hit 16 HRs. He didn’t hit double digit homeruns until that age 24 season though.
by hans on Jul 7, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
meant to say that he didn’t hit double digit HRs again until that age 24 season in the bigs.
by hans on Jul 7, 2008 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he can get on base 40% of the time and doesn’t strike out too much and keeps his speed, I won’t a little lack of power.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s really hard to get on base 40% of the time if you have no power, because pitchers have no reason fear throwing you strikes if the worst you’re gonna do is single.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Jul 7, 2008 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah someone wrote about this exact thing happening to Jacoby Ellsbury right now as the league has figured out that he won’t hurt them with power and are just blowing it by him.
by hans on Jul 7, 2008 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
although a good contact rate, very very good speed (to help boost that BABIP) and a good eye at the plate can achieve a good OBP. Ichiro of course isn’t a likely outcome for any hitter, but it can be done.
by hans on Jul 7, 2008 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually Jeff Keppinger is an example of this type of hitter. Its possible to do, but not likely. It requires very good contact rate and eye at the plate.
by hans on Jul 7, 2008 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kenny Lofton, Tim Raines, Brett Butler.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, he could turn into Babe Ruth, too.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Jul 7, 2008 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my point is that he does not seem to project to a power hitter, but a high OBP, high SB type. And I listed some of the more successful ones. Examples of players who never developed power, but were still good-great players.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Without taking the time to look up some comps, the key thing to look at here is age, not the arbitrary cut-off between “major league career” and “minor league career.” We shouldn’t expect significant power at age 20-21, and we should expect substantial power development ages 21-23, possibly more at ages 23-25 — and this is consistent with Grady (not that this guy is Grady). The question is, for this guy and many others, will it be enough?
So let’s say a guy’s power shows up at 23, grows a little at 24 and 25. Whether that’s reflected in his minor league numbers depends only on what age he was when he got promoted. If he got promoted at 22, then he’ll fit the model you suggest. If he got promoted at 24-25, then he won’t. But he’s still the same guy.
by Jay on Jul 8, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wondered about Henry Aaron’s OBP/slugging. His numbers are amazing.
Year Age HR RBI BA OBP SLG
1954 20 13 69 280 .322 .447
1955 21 27 106 .314 .366 .540
1956 22 26 92 .328 .365 .558
by odradek on Jul 8, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mills is 3-4 with a 2B and HR tonight. He does not want to be forgotten in the wake of all this LaPorta hype.
by xrickx on Jul 7, 2008 7:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I was about to post this. He must have gotten the memo he’s no longer our #1 offensive prospect.
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you can make the case that age considered, Weglarz has been and is the best offensive prospect in the system.
by xrickx on Jul 7, 2008 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they’re both good, and are actually less than a year apart in age. I tend to group them together, but I guess I just like Mills power numbers a little better right now
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, it’s definitely a toss up. I was just saying, for all the hype of the LaPortas and the Mills, Weglarz holds his own. That’s something many of us Indians fans know, but other “fans” and even the publications don’t seem as crazy about Weglarz as they are about guys with similar skill sets, like Travis Snider.
by xrickx on Jul 7, 2008 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weglarz had his picture just up over at BP and is discussed in an article (well until they stuck Laporta’s picture up tied to the CC trade story.
by hans on Jul 7, 2008 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You might be used to dealing with millions of years, but 16 months is more than a year.
by dgcambridge on Jul 8, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony Sipp pitched two more scoreless innings (2Ks, 2BBs, 1H)
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He actually got into a jam-two men on. He wasn’t as sharp as he had been, obviously, since he hadn’t given up a hit until tonight.
by afh4 on Jul 7, 2008 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d also really like to see Kelvin De La Cruz in Kinston soon. He had another great outing tonight (5IP, 4H, 1R, 0BB, 7K). Three of the hits and the run came in the 5th.
by APV on Jul 7, 2008 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have we discussed how Weglarz will react to LaPorta? I mean, he could eat him for all we know.
by JesseAK on Jul 7, 2008 8:19 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Lucky for us, the Indians have given Weglarz permission to leave for the rest of the summer to join team Canada in the Olympics.
by xrickx on Jul 7, 2008 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Melvin saying right now on the Brewers broadcast that he told Shapiro, he’d be willing to pay up more if the deal was struck before the All Star Break
by Roger Dorn on Jul 7, 2008 8:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He’s probably referring to the offering of Green and Brantley as PTBNLs.
When you think about it, both sides did the other side a favor that may have stalled the deal otherwise.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So now Hodges, LaPorta, and Rondon are all on futures teams roster.
by afh4 on Jul 7, 2008 8:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
while the broadcast is promoting a potential sell-out for tomorrow night’s game
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn’t you go to the game?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brantley’s agent acknowledges that Brantley might indeed be the PTBNL. It seems pretty clear at this point that Brantley is the target, and if he’s more injured than just a sprained ankle, then Taylor Green is the fallback option.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Jul 7, 2008 8:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
this agent must prey on naive youngsters; I can’t imagine an established player having such a loose cannon for an agent
I don;t know whether to admire or laugh at his admission that he didn’t know what was going on
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. Why is he leaking information through a blog? Teams must hate this guy.
by afh4 on Jul 7, 2008 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is semi-affiliated with Brewerfan.net
He posts occasionally to let us know what’s going on with his clients, and he hung out in the draft chat, giving us the “straight dope” as it were on how various people were viewed “in the industry”. He may have been wrong here, but I’m glad to have him around.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Jul 7, 2008 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get why you like him. Hell, I as a fan like him.
But I have to imagine the league, owners, and GMs hate him. Teams and, to a lesser extent, the league want to control when certain information is public. There are decent reasons for this; revealing PTBNLs early is not just a “hot tip” if you’re somebody who obviously has access to insider information. There’s a reason that literally no other agent is doing this.
Shapiro in particular is probably already loathing this gentleman. The Indians are notoriously tight lipped and they think it offers them an advantage.
Plus, it’s probably bad for his clients.
by afh4 on Jul 7, 2008 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t see why it’s bad for his clients. I think no other agent is doing it because agents, like beat reporters, are only just now discovering blogs. I see this more as a guy foraging into some uncharted territory — DePo is the first MLB team official with a blog, Schilling got one, now we have a a low-level agent. All kinds of organizations have been exploring the relative cost/benefit/risk of communicating more with hard-core fans and customers, this is just part of that exploration.
by Jay on Jul 7, 2008 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s take what he’s doing now-writing a stream of conciousness-esque blog that’s revealing information that’s clearly regulated by MLB. PTBNLs are unequivocally not supposed to be named, right?
On the former point, he’s opening himself up to being perceived as highly unprofessional and someone that teams don’t want to deal with. Maybe he’ll change as he grows his business but if he’s hanging out on a blog and giving running draft updates about which teams are calling, etc when teams actually know who his clients are, that’s going to be a problem. Let’s say that he reveals that a team made a promise to a kid at a certain slot or that a team seemed hot for one of his players; this kind of information has classically been highly privileged to prevent other teams from knowing it and getting some kind of advantage-taking the player who they thought would be available later, etc.
Another scenario-he’s representing a marginal player who needs a job; a team like the Indians know the guys deals like this-writing this blog, releasing information the teams want to control. The Indians, who might have otherwise been bidders go somewhere else for their AAAA pitcher or 25th man, losing the client money by decreasing the market.
Finally, the blog is silly sounding. If certain GMs read it I have no doubt they would change their tactics. Whether this created an advantage for the client or the team is unclear but it’s something.
On the PTBNL point, he’s opening the whole situation up to tampering. In his latest post he states that the choice is between Brantley and Green. It seems far-fetched but i don’t see why a third team who had some interest in the matter (divisional opponent, someone interested in acquiring one of the two players themselves) couldn’t now attempt to manipulate those players performances-bringing in bad relievers, something like that. This seems like a ridiculous scenario but so do lots of things that have happened in sports.
Additionally, if the PTBNL is as clandestine as it seems to be, couldn’t the Brewers use Green or Brantley in another trade scenario to try to push a negotiating partner around, even if those players weren’t available? And now they can’t?
It doesn’t seem like a big deal because it’s Brantley and Green. But I can definitely see it being a problem if it was major leaguers.
And, as a final point, he says in his latest post that he’s going to a minor league ASG and if anyone wants to go to get in contact with him. Couldn’t a team pretty easily send somebody with him and just generally pick his brain about his own clients, what other agents think of their clients, really anything? And isn’t that bad for the clients? Obviously, this guy could choose not to talk about this kind of thing but I don’t think it’s a great idea for him to be asking if anyone in the world wants to go to a game and watch players tht he legally represents.
I agree that there’s a good way to do this, probably. Running a half assed blogspot just isn’t it.
by afh4 on Jul 7, 2008 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn’t want him as my agent. Way too indiscreet.
by odradek on Jul 7, 2008 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. But I only read the first sentence of each paragraph.
by dgcambridge on Jul 8, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the teams will deal with him based on who his clients are…it doesn’t really matter who he is, as a person or professional, or a blogger. if the players sign with him, the teams have to deal with him. you think teams like dealing with boras or rosenhaus?
and for players at this level, think about how many people now know green and brantley as opposed to just a week ago. he’s creating buzz, which is a positive for the clients (as long as they’re not getting arrested).
plus, who cares what this guy does? he’s not doing much in the way of agenting from the looks of his roster of clients.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 9, 2008 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, teams won’t. They will if you’re representing Boras’ roster but not if you’re doing what a lot of agents do-repping a ton of minor leaguers who are interchangable.
If a team has to pick between Jason Stanford and Brian Slocum after their both minor league FAs and the team think Stanford’s agent might blog about how the AAA roster is being managed, they’re not signing Stanford. And that’s screwing Stanford.
There are a lot of organizational soliders that it’s impossible to choose among and teams sign guys built on personal relationships. Stanford and Slocum are at the high end. Hell, if a team has to find a catcher for their AA team and there are a line of 27 year old catchers, they don’t sign this guy’s client.
by afh4 on Jul 10, 2008 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
does this guy have any clients who have made it to arbitration or free agency yet?
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the biggest name he claims on his website is Carlos Martinez who pitched a little for the Marlins in 2006 and 2007, now in AA
by palcal on Jul 8, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Incidentally, Project Prospect now has Brantley as their #106 prospect overall.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Jul 7, 2008 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i will choose to ignore the #104 on the list.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I notice Huff is an honorable mention.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So according this website, The Porta is number 4 in all of baseball
by Roger Dorn on Jul 7, 2008 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
meaning that, other than Jay Bruce, there was no bigger prize to be had than El Puerto?
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Jul 7, 2008 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was Bruce any more likely “to be had” than Krenshaw?
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course, I mean Kershaw.. I just keep say “Krenshaw” in my head, and typed it that way. dammit.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 7, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, not my implication at all. All I meant was that, assuming we want and need a big bopper for our lineup for the next 5 years, if we could have had anyone, LaPorta would have been in it, save for Bruce.
All this, of course, according to this website.
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Jul 7, 2008 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony Sipp being interviewed between games right now.
Good lord, he is Southern.
by afh4 on Jul 7, 2008 8:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
these are actually two of the best GM’s in the game making bold, yet solid, moves for their respective organizations. It should be a win-win, which is what you’d expect with these types of players and organizations involved.
He's extremely quick and good.
by battlekow on Jul 7, 2008 9:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
important punctuation point from CastroTurf
Thought you might be interested to know one of Carsten Charles Sabathia’s representatives called the Brewers to inform them that, from this point forward, he is to be referred to as CC, not C.C.
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 9:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That guy is just adorable.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 7, 2008 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
is that since his third place finish in the nathan’s fourth of july hot dog eating contest? success has really gotten to his head. we got rid of him just in the one of the nicks of time.
by Brick. on Jul 7, 2008 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you haven’t seen it, this article from Castrovince provides some info on the trade discusssions (finalists, timing, nature of prospects)
by palcal on Jul 7, 2008 9:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Castrovince can write. Excellent article.
by Voltaire on Jul 8, 2008 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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