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See, it's a pretty good trade. Jeeze, why can't the PD just run articles like this?!

about 1 year ago Picture_42_tiny gte619n 37 comments 0 recs  | 

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Nice. The PD today is just awful. But, Terry Pluto’s column (inside the sports page) does start by saying that the Indians made a good trade. He seems to be the only one who gets it down there.

by peter m on Jul 8, 2008 9:56 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If the PD ran an article like this, I think the collective heads of the average cleveland fan would explode.

You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person

by jakesinger777 on Jul 8, 2008 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The average fan wouldn’t get past Victor’s first table (eek, numbers!) and would assume that we’re paying LaPorta $23.5 MM while the Brewers are only paying Sabathia $5.6 MM. Combined with the average fan’s view that Shapiro Is An Idiot, Dolan Is Cheap and Sabathia Is Worth Any Price, they’d spontaneously combust.

by FredOx on Jul 8, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t care that the PD doesn’t run articles like this. I am grateful that THT does, and provides them free of charge. And I am especially happy that I have every reason to believe that Shapiro and his crew did the same analysis that Victor Wang did.

by mpstable on Jul 8, 2008 11:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I’m sure that Shapiro and crew did much more analysis than Wang did. As far as why doesn’t the mainstream media do articles like this? I don’t know. I used to think that the media was there to inform people, but it doesn’t really do this. What it does is play to the lowest common demoninator (sp?) of fans. Sort of like talk radio, but not quite as bad. So you get the angry, oh my god the Indians traded Sabathia for minor leaguers type of reaction. Which is what you expect from fans that aren’t told who those prospects are, why the Indians went with this package, what to expect moving forward. Imagine if the papers reported on this in the same way we discussed it here at LGT? Fans would be more informed and less angry at management, even if they still disagreed with the move. They would at least understand the logic behind it.

And newspapers wonder why their subscriptions keep going down. I really do believe that there is a market out there for a newspaper that actually did more in depth news articles, and in depth opinion pieces, in sports and in politcs.

Or, people will just continue to get more and more of there news and opinion from the interwebs.

by Cols714 on Jul 8, 2008 1:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Denominator—did you forget your high school math?

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 8, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think “Demoninator” is related to “Shousenator”.

He's extremely quick and good.

by battlekow on Jul 8, 2008 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps you were distracted by the “Domican Demoninator”?

by dgcambridge on Jul 8, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh, is it less funny or more funny when I add in my own misspelling? He’s the Dominican Dominator.

by dgcambridge on Jul 9, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

or that I had misread it as the “Dominican Denominator”?

by APV on Jul 9, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Imagine if the papers reported on this in the same way we discussed it here at LGT?

Well, the newspaper would have to be (a) three times larger and (b) dedicated entirely to the Sabathia deal.

by Jay on Jul 8, 2008 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was a good analysis.

I would have a hard time imagining a piece like that would ever be in the PD or any other general paper for that matter. I mean what percent of readers would be interesting in any sort of statistical analysis like that? Maybe 55% of the readers read the pieces on the Indians and of those 55%, only say 25% would value information and analysis like that. That leaves only about 14% of the original reader base looking at it.

While my numbers are just pulled out of the air, I do get a feeling what they run right now is what they perceive to attract the greatest number of readers no matter how fluffy and emotional it may be. I think there is still a greater number of baseball fans that subscribe to the “stats can say anything” route rather than accepting that thought process as a partial description of what actually happens.

Wedge: [letting go of Casey's hand] I'll never let go, Casey. I promise.

by cclemens31 on Jul 8, 2008 1:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No doubt that is true. However, a paper should be informing it’s audience and knocking them out of their comfort zone. You know, actually explaining stuff. That they don’t do this is why we keep getting articles to the fans who think stats are BS. But if the paper took the time to explain it, I think it’d be different.

by Cols714 on Jul 8, 2008 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fewer than five percent of readers would value information or analysis like this. An editor who ran such a piece in a daily newspaper would not have his or her job for long, I’d say.

Sentimental is always good. Tug the heartstrings of your readers. And demeaning numbers and complications is also good. Give the public what they want.

Bill Livingston says one particular reason the Indians’ season is a disaster is because they didn’t sign Kenny Lofton to play left this year. That’s gas-station level discourse.

by odradek on Jul 8, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would say that sentimental is very good, especially for the Plain Dealer. I doubt there are that many people without Cleveland connections that say “Hey, I should check out the PD it has a good (fill in the blank)”. I know the only reason I glance at it or cleveland.com is because I grew up with it. The only reasons I could imagine people reading the PD is for local news and sentimental reasons, because cutting edge analysis will certainly not be found there.

Besides can you imagine the train wreck that would come with a statistical analysis by Hoynes, Shaw and Livingston? Of course I may read the PD more just to see that.

Wedge: [letting go of Casey's hand] I'll never let go, Casey. I promise.

by cclemens31 on Jul 8, 2008 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A large part of the problem, demonstrated by the “eek, numbers!” comment above, is the general public’s lack of any basic mathematical knowledge (outside of arithmetic). I’m a high school math teacher, and have had this discussion many times with colleagues. What’s worse, is that many people are “proud” of their lack of mathematical knowledge. It’s become generally accepted in this country that it’s OK to be bad at math and most people don’t need it once they graduate from high school. You would never hear a person brag that they don’t know how to read, yet people brag all the time that they’re bad at math. And they pass this attitude on to their children, who bring that attitude to school.

I once had a mother ask me why her son, a sophomore who was doing terrible in Algebra 1, why her son needed to know algebra! She said, I never had algebra—why should he have to take it? So of course he’s not going to do well, because he thinks it isn’t important.

Mathematics teached critical thinking skills, problem solving skills, how to read and understand numbers, graphs, and many ofther skills that are necessary in every day lives, not to mention an increasing number of jobs in this technology-savvy world. That is why the government is increasing requirements for math classes to graduate from high school. Yet students come to class with the attitude that math isn’t important, and they don’t really need to know this stuff because they won’t need it after they leave school, because that is the attitude that permeates from the adults that they are around.

So, we have a nation that is scared by numbers, graphs, charts, and in-depth analysis of most issues. They don’t understand logic and are unable to spot fallacies when the see or hear them. This has led to a dumbing-down of most news and print, because any high-level analysis is hard for people to understand, so they change the channel or skip the article. That’s why newspapers don’t publish articles like this. Maybe someday they will.

(Sorry for the rant)

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 8, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this just doesn’t add up.

by Brick. on Jul 8, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

excellent

by hans on Jul 8, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

RAGE!!!!!!

Kidding, you are, I think correct. It doesn’t help anything, though, that the writers are often just as proud of having no knowledge of new fangled statistics, like you know, OBP.

by Cols714 on Jul 8, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What is this OBP you speak of?

One blind pig?
Over blue pens?
Oven brick pizza?

ugh…stats make head hurt!

Wedge: [letting go of Casey's hand] I'll never let go, Casey. I promise.

by cclemens31 on Jul 8, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think there’s a real failure of our education system at the higher levels, as well. I genuinely wanted to improve at math in college, but I ended up with only a rudimentary understanding of calculus because my teacher hated the English language. It’s dogged me ever since. The only kids who did well were the kids who had already had a good calc teacher in high school. And from conversations I’ve had, that’s a pretty common experience.

Meanwhile … the good jobs keep going to people who are good at math. Something’s not right here.

by fleerdon on Jul 8, 2008 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess we’re about the same age. I went to college thinking I’d minor in math, and just gave up on it. I didn’t like the 4-day a week meetings, and having to do problem sets every damn day (I chose classes in which I could phase my efforts around studio deadlines).

In the past year I’ve payed out-of-pocket this year for nightschool maths, and I’m really digging it. It’s like being in a beer / volleyball league or something. It’s not a bad way to meet new folks, and it’s actually pretty fun stuff. If you’re interested I highly recommend it.

by jhon on Jul 8, 2008 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m really looking forward to the point in my life when school can be recreation, Jon. Not there yet. But thanks, I’ll keep that in mind.

by fleerdon on Jul 8, 2008 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What math class are you taking?

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 8, 2008 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m retaking Calc 2, and that’ll wrap up soon. I’ll either retake Linear Algebra next, or Dif EQ (which would be a first for me). I’m not sure what I’ll take after that—statistics, I guess. I’d like to take Calc 3, but I might have to draw a line there. I’ll sooner forget Calc 3 than apply it to anything I do.

by jhon on Jul 8, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, if you have any questions about Calc 2, you’re more than welcome to e-mail me at buckeyebrad79@yahoo.com. I teach AP Calculus and it covers most of Calc 2 (and the rest I should either remember or can look up). Statistics would be a good course to take, and I do know some about that (though not near as much as calc). Many students have trouble with stats because it is unlike any other math class they’ve taken.

In any case, good luck to you!

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 8, 2008 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Brad, expect an email soon.

I heard that a couple years ago Intel gave my hs calc teacher their highest honor, and that all of her students were getting 5s on the AP. She was awesome. Several of my former classmates went on to become math teachers. She managed to get through to me, and I was one of the most negligent college-bound students in the grade. I have the upmost respect for math and science teachers.
So I learned to like math from her-drifted away for a while and did other stuff-and then I started coming here and reading those damned THT articles (this one appears nice but confuses me a little), and it got me interested again.

by jhon on Jul 9, 2008 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that is the problem with education….a lot of what you learn depends on what kind of teacher you have. That’s true in college as well as high school and grade school. Unfortunately, many math and science professors are of foreign backgrounds, and the language barrier can be a problem to many students. I was a TA at OSU, and if students had a foreign professor many times they didn’t learn much in lecture and I had to teach them everything in recitation. And if you don’t get a good foundation in calculus, you can’t get very far in math (or physics or engineering for that matter).

Of course, there are many American professors that are bad teachers, too. So it’s not just about what country they’re from.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 8, 2008 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

99.99% of the public can get along nicely without understanding thing one about calculus. A strong understanding of algebra, probability, statistics and logic can mean the difference between muddling through life financially versus becoming comfortable financially.

by elsandito on Jul 8, 2008 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course, I did not mean to imply that everyone needs calculus, if that’s what you thought I meant. As I said, you need a good knowledge of calculus for engineering and physics, but certainly not for every college student. (And, to quibble, it’s probably less than 99.99%....more like 99% or even 98%. There are a lot of engineers out there.)

But everyone does need at least a basic understanding of those subjects you mentioned, and I would add geometry.

by Buckeye Brad on Jul 8, 2008 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Calculus isn’t essential in my trade-architecture-but I use the pythagorean theorem every day and it’s neat to know that it can be proved by differential equations. And when I’m busy drafting sometimes my wandering mind peers behind the CAD opperations and I see it there too. Calc is good stuff.

by jhon on Jul 9, 2008 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just want to point out that Randy Choate hasn’t pitched for the Brewers this year. Why? Because, ironically enough, he broke his hand on Matt LaPorta’s helmet in spring training.

He's extremely quick and good.

by battlekow on Jul 8, 2008 2:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Which was a very timely injury, given that all indications were he wasn’t going to start the year in Milwaukee anyway. Also, we should make sure our relievers don’t hit The Porta in the head. Except for the ones that suck, who are free to break their fingers that way or be fed to The Weglarz.

by FredOx on Jul 8, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, we should make sure our relievers don’t hit The Porta in the head. Except for the ones that suck[...]
This is the proverbial “loophole you could drive a Mack Truck through.”

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself."

by Fiddlesticks on Jul 8, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jul 8, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you like the numbers side of this article, check out this posting over at the Book. The comments include quite a bit of discussion between Wang (the THT author), Tango, David Cameron from USSM, MGL, and others.

by APV on Jul 9, 2008 9:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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