Shoppach
by piersall on Jul 8, 2008 4:52 PM EDT
60 comments
Anybody have any thoughts on what to do with Shoppach?
I think there's a good argument that you let Shoppach start, play Martinez at first, and send Garko to wherever Scott Hatteberg is hiding.
Or, when Victor returns, you trade Shoppach if he continues to play well during his stint starting. I just think Shoppach is losing value (and not helping the team particularly much) playing every fifth day. You can then play LaPorta at his natural position.
Of course, it all depends on how Gutierrez, Choo, Francisco and Garko play. I think last year's numbers were Garko's ceiling and that the three young outfielders have more upside.
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I really don’t follow. If you trade Shoppach, Our Friend Sal becomes your backup catcher unless you’re either prepared to call someone up from the minors or you get a backup in return. Trading Shoppach doesn’t open up 1B for LaPorta unless playing Martinez there full time is your only alternative. I’d support sending Garko somewhere, but there are better alternatives to Shoppach/Martinez.
by FredOx on Jul 8, 2008 5:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The question really, how effective will Victor be when he returns? Will he be able to throw? If not I would certainly entertain playing him at first and Kelly behind the plate.
I wouldn’t trade Kelly until at least well into ST next year. By then we should have a good idea of what Victor has left.
by Cactus Jack on Jul 8, 2008 5:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think I like this idea the best. There’s no need to trade Shoppach now (heck he’s finally being given a chance to show what he can do, which so far indicates that he can be a pretty valuable offensive and aside from this year…defensive catcher). I also don’t trade him unless we receive fair value for him and I’m not sure we would (although I may be underestimating some of the GMs in the league).
by hans on Jul 8, 2008 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
S.S. Keep Kelly yadda yadda.
My sincere hope is that by the end of 2008, I can make all of my points using only self-referential shorthand. Fortunately, I’ve only got two or three.
by fleerdon on Jul 8, 2008 5:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Indians are in no position to be trading young cheap hitters, especially at positions that lack so much depth.
You want to trade an OF? Go for it. But I’m not even sure we can say Vic will catch at all next year. It’s likely he will but he’s near the black hole.
by afh4 on Jul 8, 2008 5:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep. I think Victor’s got probably one more outstanding and one very good season in him before he falls off a cliff. In any case, he’ll be needing a caddy and you can’t do better than Shop. I see no reason to trade him, unless one of our catching prospects takes off.
Oh wait, we don’t have any catching prospects.
by mrich on Jul 8, 2008 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello mrich,
No offense, but last time I checked, we did have Wyatt Toregas and Matt McBride – some organizations don’t even have that in the catching department.
While neither will probably be Victor with the bat offensively, Toregas can probably match or maybe even outdo Shoppach defensively (and Shoppach is very good, no question) – recall he does AVERAGE 1.8 seconds on his throws to 2B, while the average ML catcher time is 2.0 seconds, so Toregas is no slouch defensively.
Even if Toregas doesn’t hit much, depending on how the rest of the team is, you could realistically have Toregas start if his defense is that good, being that you still don’t expect catchers to give you that much offense in today’s game (i.e. it’s more of a luxury rather than a necessity). Preferably, you’d like him to hit more than he currently is, but there are worse options out there than him. And if we keep Shoppach and move Victor away from catching, Toregas would likely be a superb backup due to his excellent defense.
As for McBride, he’s further away, but again, there are organizations with worse prospects for catchers, so we’re not totally bereft of catching prospects. However, if you’re expecting them to be the next Victor Martinez, obviously, few, if any, organizations would be able to offer that in their farm systems, so we wouldn’t be the only ones. The main point is, we do have a few decent catching prospects in the systems – they’re just not Victor Martinez, but very few are (Joe Mauer and Geovany Soto are the only two young ones who come to mind being comparable to Victor offensively and equal or better defensively).
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Jul 8, 2008 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference in taking 1.8 and 2 seconds to get the ball to second—Am I wrong, or does that translate to almost a couple of feet difference from the runner reaching the bag? That would seem significant.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 9, 2008 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello nick,
To my knowledge, I think you would be correct.
Combine that with the fact that I believe Toregas calls a good game and is considered a very solid to strong defensive catcher, and that alone would make him a viable catching prospect. Very few catching prospects are going to hit like Martinez, Mauer, or Soto – if they excel defensively, that’s value in itself, and makes them notably better than most catching prospects.
That’s why Toregas has more value than mrich is thinking – would I like him to hit better? Certainly. But, at worst, he’s a very strong ML back-up catcher (think of a Henry Blanco-type), and if worse came to shove, you could still start him if the rest of your ballclub has a strong offensive unit (which isn’t the case at this point, but would have been the case with say, the mid- to late-90s Indians’ teams) – any offense you’d get from Toregas would be a bonus.
Combine that with the idea that Martinez may eventually move to 1B, and that could leave you with one of three possibilities (around 2010 or 2011):
1. Make Shoppach the starting C and make Toregas his back-up.
2. Trade Shoppach and make Toregas the starting C (with someone else the back-up).
3. Make Shoppach the starting C, trade Toregas, and have someone else be Shoppach’s back-up.
That’s why I think Toregas is an interesting prospect in our system, and chances are, not one the Indians will likely just give up for some organizational filler – having catching prospects, even those with just great defensive skills, are not those type that grow on trees. He’s more valuable than mrich is suggesting.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Jul 9, 2008 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The absolute best case scenario for Toregas is that he becomes a big league backup. There is no reason to think that he can ever be more. I don’t care how good his defense is, because his offense will subtract that value. McBride is 23 and hasn’t made it to Kinston. Yep, we have no catching prospects.
by ClarkM on Jul 9, 2008 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello ClarkM,
No offense, but again, you don’t expect great offensive catchers – there aren’t many of them. So, again, defense is the primary value you expect from a solid to good catching prospect – offensive contributions are a bonus. Comparing them to Martinez, Mauer, and Soto is not a good comparison because most catching prospects won’t measure up to that. Just because they don’t measure up to them doesn’t mean they aren’t solid catching prospects.
Like I said above, Henry Blanco was a very solid ML backup for several seasons in the big leagues, and he never hit with any consistency for most of those years – yet, his defense kept him in the big leagues for all those seasons. From the reports I’ve heard and read, Toregas’ defense is very good in his own right, so I don’t think that the “best case scenario” for Toregas is ML-backup – he virtually has that right now at the very least – that’s almost the “worst-case scenario” at this point. If he can show any consistent offense, he’d be valued even moreso, but as of right now, he probably could be a ML-backup, just on his defense alone. Therefore, that’s arguably the “worst-case” scenario for him, not “best-case,” no offense.
As for McBride, he was drafted as a college draftee (age 21), so it’s not surprisingly he’s as old as he is and is only at Low-A or High-A (he actually did have a brief trial at AA Akron in 2007 – 2 games’ worth). The main reason why he’s not at Kinston yet this season is because he is working his way back from shoulder surgery with the GCL Indians; otherwise, he likely would have started at Kinston to begin 2008.
And, as I’ve said before, there are organizations that don’t even have a Toregas or McBride in their system, so they’ll even worse off than we are when it comes to catching prospects. I wouldn’t call them elite catching prospects, but they’re more than organizational fodder at this point in my opinion.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Jul 9, 2008 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello again ClarkM,
To clarify regarding “– he virtually has that right now at the very least –”, I meant that Toregas will likely at least get that shot, if not with the Indians, then with someone. If he can show anything more offensively, then he could perhaps be more, but it will be surprisingly if an organization isn’t interested in his defensive skills, as many second catchers (and even starting catchers) don’t have those defensive skills, and virtually skills that can’t be taught.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Jul 9, 2008 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its not that I don’t think he can’t hit like Joe Mauer, its that I don’t think he can hit like John Buck. I think I have some pretty good reasons for thinking that, i.e his track record in the upper minors.
by ClarkM on Jul 10, 2008 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not in favor of trading Shoppach. I am in favor of him starting and moving Victor permanently to first.
My broader point is that playing Shoppach every fifth day: (1) hurts his trade value; and (2) doesn’t help the team all that much with Garko playing first. Nevertheless, that seems to be the Tribe’s plan for next year.
by piersall on Jul 8, 2008 6:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Your first point is pretty accurate, as anyone trading for him would be cautious about his ability to handle the duty of being an everday catcher. And your second point makes sense as long as its 2008 Garko and not 2007 Garko. If Garko hits worse than Shoppach, than you are correct and really Garko shouldn’t be an option anymore…I’m really hoping they start a semi-platoon or something with Aubrey being brought up.
by hans on Jul 8, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think they have much of a plan for next year. It’s the beginning of July. They have 3 months to analyze
- Shoppach’s ability as a starter and his value,
- Martinez’s health and effectiveness as a catcher
- Garko’s ability to play 1B
- LaPorta’s ability to play somewhere besides 1B or DH
- Hafner’s health and effectiveness
When they have 3 more months of analyzing these things, and then an off season of other additions and moves, we can talk about this “problem”. Like Cactus Jack said above, Spring Training.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 8, 2008 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t help thinking that Shoppach is more valuable to the Indians, at this point, than he is in a trade. He’s 28, so that lowers his value somewhat (not a rising star, in other words), he’s a decent hitter with some pop, but he’s not a middle of the order hitter or someone who’s going to hit 35 homers. I don’t think other teams will trade you a ton for someone like that—so, why not keep him? Especially for this year, Victor could easily play some first (that guy out there now isn’t exactly tearing it up!!) and ease back into full-time catching gradually. Then, in the offseason, you have another look at the catching situation and decide how badly you need Kelly and how much he might bring in return. Not a priority, in other words.
Trade Blake.
by peter m on Jul 8, 2008 7:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is it sacrilegious of me to suggest trading Victor and keeping Shoppach? Victor is about to hit 30 and won’t get time at first if LaPorta is as good as advertised. Even at first, he’s not nearly as valuable as he is behind the plate. Despite his being hurt, I feel like this is our chance to sell high.
Speaking of Indians catchers, anybody see that great play by Max Ramirez last night? He caught the ball blocking the plate a split second before getting hammered, held on despite being laid out and dazed, then jumped up and gunned a guy down at 3rd. If we’d never traded for Kenny Lofton, I think I’d be even happier having Shoppach keep the backstop warm for the kid.
LeCavs!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
by Matt in LA on Jul 8, 2008 7:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It was a great play.
One day I'll get over to watch the Tribe play
by new zealand tribe fan on Jul 8, 2008 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it was. By the way, ESPN commentators were debating whether he was truly dazed or was playing possum. I still think it was worth getting Kenny for the stretch run last year. We should be so lucky to get as good a prospect for Blake now.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 9, 2008 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don’t see the team trading Victor, sacrilege or not. Victor is getting a little older and the 1b option for him just got crowded again with LaPorta supposedly moving back to his college position. If Victor really does have just a few good seasons left in him (not something I agree with, but has been suggested here) then Cleveland shouldn’t have much to worry about as he is only under contract through 2009, plus a team option for 2010.
I don’t see the point in trading Victor anytime soon unless we know for sure that LaPorta and Shoppach will really outperform Victor at 1b and/or catcher.
by Pronk33 on Jul 9, 2008 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or, for that matter, until we know more about Hafner.
by fleerdon on Jul 9, 2008 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because of those two years in 2009 and 2010 is precisely why Vic could (I said could, not would!!!)be dealt in the offseason. Two years at good $$ is very valuable.
Now Shoppach is never going to replace Vic as a clean-up hitter, but it seems he could do sufficiently hitting 7th with decent pop and playing excellent defense.
If Vic comes back and plays well upon return from his stint on the DL, if someone was to offer a young stud starter, I think Shapiro would have to be tempted to at least consider it.
My best guess is he doesn’t get dealt, but I would not be shocked in the least if he does. In any case, I don’t see the Tribe extending his contract too too far, unless it is maybe a 2 year extension. He will not get a Hafner like extension in my opinion.
by talonk on Jul 9, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shoppach’s only a little younger than Vic (1.5 years), so trading Vic wouldn’t make the regular catcher lots younger anyway. I think you’re right about the near future—unless somebody wows Shapiro with an offer, the catching situation is pretty well set.
Another statistic to bear in mind. Since Vic went on the DL, the Indians are 7-16. He’s not the only reason, obviously, but it does make one stop and notice.
by peter m on Jul 9, 2008 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only 1.5 years younger, but a lot less mileage crouching behind the plate. About 1200 innings less over the past three years, even though Kelly just took the lead for 2008.
by Jay on Jul 9, 2008 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Indians keep Shoppach, I’d like to see him play 80 games and get 300+ plate appearances next year. If not, I think he has more value in a trade.
by APV on Jul 8, 2008 7:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the key thing is, you don’t trade him this month unless you get totally bowled over. We won’t get much more for him now than we would in the offseason, since he still has three more seasons before he can be a free agent.
Let the season play out, see how he does, see how Garko does, see how Victor is, see how Toregas and Gimenez finish.
by Jay on Jul 9, 2008 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we all agree that Shoppach is a legitimate above-average hitting catcher; however, the problem is that it’s a HUGE downgrade from our previous OUTSTANDING hitting catcher.
This offense is putrid with Vic out because our RF and LF just suck balls. (You can’t say ‘sucks balls’ in a non-game thread!? oh f-it, nobody’s listening anyways.) Victor’s real value was that his offensive prowess allowed us to have those holes in the EASIEST offensive positions and still be league average.
Keep Kelly, Trade Kelly, it doesn’t matter. Vic gone. Offense gone. QED.
by gte619n on Jul 10, 2008 11:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kelly’s a drop-off from Victor, but I can’t think of many replacements who wouldn’t also be a drop-off from Kelly. It’s not like we’re getting McCann back if we move him.
And I think it’s been so long since catcher was a black hole for us that we’re forgetting how miserable it can be. If your right-fielder sucks, you can usually get another right fielder. If your catcher sucks, it’s like an accident-based traffic jam on the Dan Ryan. There’s not always a way out.
by fleerdon on Jul 10, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll equate this to when Omar left. Jhonny was never going to be the fielder Omar was, ever. But he has been fine as a SS for us.
If Vic leaves, Kelly is more than capable of being a full-time catcher. He just won’t hit for the average Vic does. He has more home run power, probably will hit a few less 2Bs, but the slugging will be close to Vic’s. He just won’t walk as much and K more often. All in all, Kelly would be a good full-time catcher. But as you said, some production would need upgrading in a corner OF or IF position too.
by talonk on Jul 10, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which you could probably get if you moved Vic to 1B and used LaPorta in LF.
by KevinV on Jul 10, 2008 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this reminds me of when people clamor for their team to trade their back-up QB. We need at least two viable catchers. Isn’t this season evidence enough of that?
by Brick. on Jul 10, 2008 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don’t forget the Heroic Mullet. And the Heroic Regular Batting Helmet Turned Around Backwards. No newfangled goalie-style contraption for Our Friend Sal.
by FredOx on Jul 10, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
SAL FASANO DID NOTHING WRONG
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
by rolub on Jul 10, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two viable catchers, yes. Two starting catchers, no. Toby Hall, Kevin Cash, Shawn Riggans, and Ryan Budde are all viable, and the Tribe could acquire someone of equal or greater talent fairly easily.
by piersall on Jul 10, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
someone like shoppach? i don’t know. i think this is just clamoring for the sake of clamoring.
by Brick. on Jul 10, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we’re talking past each other … My opinion is that we should start shoppach and move martinez to first permanently. Shoppach is a starting catcher and (in my opinion) can be one of the better all around catchers in the league. Getting a viable backup for shoppach would not be difficult, the guys i named are the backups for the four current AL playoff teams. My broader point is, if we aren’t going to start shoppach next year, his trade value will never be higher than after this season. If shoppach is the backup next year, his trade value will decline because he will be 30 and likely be seen as a backup.
Two underlying points are: (1) Garko stinks; (2) we will never be able to afford (nor do we have in the system) a better overall firstbaseman than martinez, so you might as well play him there.
by piersall on Jul 10, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In theory, if Victor’s at first, couldn’t he also be the back-up catcher? Surely we’ve got enough 1B candidates out here, and we could always use Marte over there to give him something to do.
by fleerdon on Jul 10, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In theory, if Victor’s at first, couldn’t he also be the back-up catcher?
I really like this idea, assuming LaPorta is starting in left field.
by Pronk33 on Jul 10, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More time at first base means a healthier (read better hitting) Victor as well.
Of course, Victor sees himself as a catcher and will lose it when presented with the idea.
by piersall on Jul 10, 2008 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t see Victor getting too upset if they ask him to move to first base for the majority of his starts. He was originally a shortstop before Cleveland shifted him to catcher and there didn’t seem to be much of an issue there.
He could still interact with the catchers and pitching staff, but I bet he understands how much better he’d hold up over the course of a season if he were to catch less.
by Pronk33 on Jul 10, 2008 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d like to use Marte at third to give him something to do.
by Matt Y. on Jul 10, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lineup
C Shoppach
1B Vic
2B Asdrubal
SS Jhonny
3B Marte
LF The Porta
CF Grady
RF Choo/Gutz
DH Pronk?
CHAMPIONSHIP
by Roger Dorn on Jul 10, 2008 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
where do i sign? before this year i would have jumped at this for 09. and a rotation of fausto, westbrook, lee, laffey, sowers. stevens, sipp, raffy, raffy, lewis, masa and filler in the pen.
by Brick. on Jul 10, 2008 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, we’re going to resign CC this offseason too, so don’t forget about him!
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 11, 2008 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we are getting Pronk and not Travis Hafner I am on board for this line up.
by KevinV on Jul 11, 2008 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn’t strike me as a dominoes guy. Jenga, perhaps.
by fleerdon on Jul 11, 2008 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have expressed my desire to trade Ben Fran and strike while the iron is hot. I like keeping Gutz around as a platoon partner for Choo and defensive standout….and the hope that he puts it all together.
by Roger Dorn on Jul 11, 2008 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I DIDN’T GET A HARUMPH OUTTA THAT GUY.
you better WATCH your ass.
by gte619n on Jul 10, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shoppach (admittedly with a still small sample size) has basically two years running now with a 315 OBP 470 SLG line. We’re talking only 130 or so at bats each year. He’ll get at least another 200 or so the rest of the way. An OPS+ over 100 at the catcher position. Under team control for another 3+ years. Why would we want to trade him?
by cheech99 on Jul 10, 2008 5:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think as long as Laporta can handle LF, and Garko never recovers back to last years performance, you seriously consider moving Vic to 1B and going with Shoppach as the catcher for next season. On the flip side, if Garko recovers (i.e. goes on a tear) or Laporta can’t play outfield but can make the jump to the bigs playing 1B, you look at potentially trading Shoppach in the offseason after he’s put together a decent year (showing other GMs that he is a legit starting catcher option) and keep Vic behind the plate. Laporta sticking in LF would be huge for this team.
by hans on Jul 10, 2008 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Porta is now hitting .455 with no errors in left in three games in Akron. Still waiting for an XBH, however.
by FredOx on Jul 11, 2008 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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