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Willing off-season trade partner -  Washington

Bowden has managed to absolutely destroy this organization in his tenure.  Granted there were some questionable moves made prior (IE trading Grady Sizermore to us).  This Washington Nationals are on pace to win 57 games.  I know there are various injuries affecting them this season, but how do you decide to release 3 salaried veterans the day after the trade deadline.  Is this team in transition or without direction?  Reminds me of Seattle.  Now that Bavasi is no longer running amuck in Seattle, could Bowden be our next favorite trade partner? 

Poll
What would you rather see?
Jim Bowden named GM of your favorite team
1 votes
Watch Celebrity Death Match: Jim Bowden vs Ed Wade
15 votes
Watch paint dry
19 votes

35 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 92 comments

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In the last couple of weeks, I think Ned Colletti has proven that he’s very “fleecable.” He’d be my next nominee for a Bavasi Award.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Aug 1, 2008 2:56 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why do you release three veterans and eat their salary? Because nobody else wants to give even a low ceiling A- organization player for them. Seriously, why keep Lo Duca or Estrada around at all, now that the Yankees have traded for Pudge? I’d rather have Sal Fasano than either of those guys at this point. I’m surprised that he wasn’t able to get something for Lopez, but who would you rather see play if you’re a Nats fan – Bonifacio or Lopez?

Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Aug 1, 2008 3:16 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bowden by most accounts is too difficult to make a trade with, so I would say it is unlikely

by Roger Dorn on Aug 1, 2008 4:02 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also true – this is the guy who failed to move Alfonso Soriano at the trade deadline a couple years ago because he asked for the moon, sun, and stars.

Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Aug 1, 2008 4:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I want to see them succeed, but it’s a shady opperation they’re running over there.

I don’t know who we’d want, and I don’t think that raiding them bare-if Bowden is even willing-is in our interests. We already did it once, in a way.

That’s a club that needs to get some grown-ups in charge.

by jhon on Aug 1, 2008 4:29 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like Brattain … but that article is ridiculous.

by Jay on Aug 1, 2008 11:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ok, it’s overwrought-that’s a polite way of putting it-but I agree with the most critical point that the Nats should relax and pay their damned rent. They’ve got a pretty sweet deal, no one can deny. Insisting on damages is prigish.

by jhon on Aug 2, 2008 5:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It’s just a business acting like a business, and holding a contractee accountabie for promises. It’s also posturing — they’re claiming the maximum theoretical amount of money in damages, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t settle for much less.

by Jay on Aug 2, 2008 6:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am being willfully ignorant of that point, because I feel like I have a small personal stake in this, but that’s fair. That reduces the critical point to, “well, this club better be very careful to not disturb its fledgling fanbase”.

That and MLB doesn’t need a Washington Generals kind of sacrificial dog to enhance the entertainment level of its games. That team in Washington is even worse than it looks.

by jhon on Aug 4, 2008 9:37 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why would anyone want to see this franchise succeed? Why? So the good folks of Washington D.C. who run this nation so beautifully can say they also have the best baseball team?

No thank you.

This team is and should always be cursed for the way the pooh-bahs of major league baseball treated this franchise, a proud team that had the support of its community until baseball screwed the good fans of Montreal with extraordinarily poor ownership and turned its back on the fans in the aftermath of the 1994 strike, which took place at a time that the Expos were in position to take its first legitimate shot at a World Series. I dare say had the strike never happened, and competent ownership was in place, there would be a beautiful new ballpark in downtown Montreal, one of the most sophisticated and beautiful cities in North America.

Instead, we have two crummy franchises, unnecessarily within hailing distance of one another, playing to a fanbase that is as indifferent as the one that was used as an excuse to abandon Montreal.

The failure of major league baseball to make a commitment to Quebec meant that the sport turned its back on a nation and a culture we should have been cultivating and growing the sport in, not killing it outright. It laid bare the lie that baseball is truly interested in expanding the reach of the sport.

I hope the Nationals always stink, just like the Senators always did. It will serve baseball right.

(My outrage flows from being a Tribe fan since 1963, and living in constant fear during my youth that the Tribe was going to move at any moment to Vancouver, Tampa, or Rancho Cucamonga without any chance to prove how well the city would respond to a decent team. We were absurdly fortunate not to lose our team during this time; unfortunately, the sporting world became much too mercenary at a time the Expos required a lifeline.)

by whoazcue on Aug 4, 2008 3:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your fears were unfounded. Montreal is nothing like Cleveland — despite that one scene in Major League, a significant strain in Cleveland held on to the Indians and to baseball in general over 35 horrendous years. Cleveland is a Great Old Baseball Town, and Montreal is more like Miami — a market barely able to sustain a competitive franchise even in the wake of some success.

I’m not saying Cleveland will never face any jeopardy, and I’m not saying the Expos weren’t handled badly, but the people of Cleveland still wanted to build a beautiful new ballpark for the Indians after 30 years of horrible management. Had Montreal and Quebec been half as committed to baseball in the wake of one-fifth of the incompetence, there would still be a team there. A lifeline? What town gets a “lifeline” when it comes to sports teams? The markets that can support a team and really want one, get one.

Any fanbase that hasn’t seen a competitive club in over ten years is going to be relatively indifferent. I’ve been to major league games in Montreal and D.C. (at RFK), and there is no comparing the energy level of the two fanbases, or the level of interest in the club in the cities in general.

A lousy team in D.C. doesn’t “punish” MLB, which is owned by the 30 club owners, 15 of whom are competing with the Nationals for playoff spots, and all 30 of whom have already gotten paid a king’s ransom for the franchise. It punishes Nationals ownership and the D.C. fanbase.

It also hurts the half-million residents of D.C., since a successful Nationals franchise would draw a lot of entertainment dollars and tax revenues into the district from the outlying areas, where most of the fanbase lives. These people have already been gouged for a stadium, we might as well root for the city to get whatever benefit it can from the club.

by Jay on Aug 4, 2008 11:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That said, Mr. Loria did a number on the Expos. They were one of my favorite teams. There are rare moments in games that alter the course of certain franchises. Gabby Hartnett’s homer in the gloaming inexplicably thwarted a potential Pirates dynasty. One play, one swing of the bat. The Pirates never recovered. Similarly, Rick Monday’s homerun off Steve Rogers damaged this franchise. Jeffrey Loria did the rest.

by odradek on Aug 4, 2008 12:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You’re in love with the storyline, not the facts. You have no idea if either home run changed anything outside of that season’s result.

by Jay on Aug 4, 2008 4:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure, it’s a story. It’s not quantifiable. Not everything is. But just because something isn’t quantifiable doesn’t mean it’s not true. Narratives have value, too.

by odradek on Aug 4, 2008 6:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Something happened with the Pirates:

1935: 86-67 4th place
1936: 84-70 4th place
1937: 86-68 3rd place
1938: 86-64 2nd place
1939: 68-85 6th place
1940: 78-76 4th place
1941: 81-73 4th place
1942: 68-81 5th place

They weren’t a young team when the Cubs caught them late in 1938, so maybe it is purely a fable and nothing more. The “homer in the gloaming” stuff was made up by John Carmichael of the Chicago Daily News. Of course, such accounts exaggerate the immediate. It’s human nature to overemphasize what has just happened, just like after 9/11 our lives were changed forever. Hartnett’s homer was called the greatest home run in baseball history, but I’d have to say there have been others more notable since then.

So maybe it doesn’t hold up, but I still believe it is possible, psychologically, for a teams’ fortunes to shift on a single play. And for the effects of that shift to last for years afterward.

In the Expos’ case, it was the 1994 strike that really drove them out of business.

But the Rogers’ homer was a backbreaker.

by odradek on Aug 4, 2008 7:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The markets that can support a team and really want one, get one.

Except, maybe, Browns fans in 1996 and every football fan in LA.

Eloquent as always, just off the mark. Bad – some may even call them evil – management can cause a city to lose a team. Certainly Vern Stouffer and Nick Mileti would qualify.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Aug 5, 2008 11:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think citing the Browns in the late 90s proves Jay’s point

by joeee on Aug 5, 2008 11:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how about, “reinforces” instead of proves

by joeee on Aug 5, 2008 11:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Like with Houston, everybody knows LA will get their team back. Charlotte got their team back. Seattle will eventually host an NBA team again, unless it picks up an NHL club along the way.

Hartford, Winnipeg and Quebec city won’t be getting their teams back. These are markets that cannot host premier teams no matter how tight their management and their pact with the cities may be.

Cincinnati won’t be getting its NBA team back. Pittsburgh and Cleveland are big enough to have only one of NBA / NHL franchise, as long as we have both MLB and NHL.

Regions ~ 5 million, like DC, Detroit, Philly, Phoenix, etc. have the resources to host one of each.

Providence cannot host a premier league team. Off the top of my head, Portland, San Antonio and Charlotte are several borderline candidates to gain MLB franchises.

by jhon on Aug 5, 2008 12:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, maybe not San Antonio. Nashville maybe? There aren’t many obvious hosts left.

The more I think about it, I feel pretty certain that Montreal will get another chance sooner or later.

I wonder if Mexico City ever joins the club.

by jhon on Aug 5, 2008 12:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t see Nashville supporting baseball at the major league level. I lived there for 5 years in graduate school and it’s just not a baseball town. Football is king in TN, so the Titans are a good fit there. They did a really solid job marketing hockey initially (NASCAR on Ice), but the Predators have struggled over time keeping their draw. I don’t even think they sell out the minor league baseball team on a regular basis.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Aug 5, 2008 10:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

jhon, here’s what I’m responding to: whoazcue is 100% correct. There was a real chance in the late 60s and early 70s that the Indians were going to move elsewhere – much like the KC As. The Indians franchise had a series of near-do-well owners during that period who were in an almost constant need of money to run the team. Vernon Stouffer looked like a guy who had the money to run the club, after all he had just paid $8M for the team and only had to borrow $2.6M. He bought the club after he did a stock swap with Litton Industries for ~$20M in Litton stock. Then Litton’s stock tanked to less than 50% of its original value, strapping Stouffer for cash. He then made a series of questionable/bad baseball decisions driving attendance down and jeopardizing the franchise’s future. He came very close to selling a substantial portion of the club to a New Orleans based group who had plans to move the Tribe to the new Superdome. Suffice it to say that this high wire act was followed by the Mileti experience/disaster.

The business environment that the Indians have operated in has been very fluid. Stouffer, much like Dolan, looked like he had the wherewithal to afford the operational expenses necessary to field a viable club. But with a drastic change in his financial situation – anybody wanna venture a guess as to the future of cable TV? – the circumstances changed drastically.

As to the Browns, I cannot envision another professional sports team with a stronger, more loyal fan base that has supported their team through both good – very good indeed – and bad, and we’re talking about sell-outs during some stretches of horrendously bad football. The only motivating factor in the loss of the Browns was atrocious management and greed. It had nothing to do with the fan’s willingness to support the club.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Aug 5, 2008 12:48 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure, I buy that really awful ownership / management would have the lack of sense to move to a city like New Orleans. There were rumors (or maybe empty threats) that the Giants and the White Sox were prepared to move to the Sun Dome—whatever they called Tropicana Field back then.

I get it. Alls I’m saying is that, if that had happened, it wouldn’t have been long before Cleveland got another franchise. It would have been a situation not unlike that of the restored Browns, because this is a market that-at present and for the foreseeable future-can support a team in this premier league.

by jhon on Aug 5, 2008 1:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

White Sox wasn’t an idle threat, as I remember. They forced the state legislature to build a new stadium based on their promise to move to Tampa.

by odradek on Aug 5, 2008 1:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m not so sure Cleveland would get another baseball team. As of the 2000 census, it is the 25th-largest SMSA in the U.S., and it hasn’t grown much since then. I suspect Cleveland could have gone on to join Louisville, Fort Wayne and Altoona as quaint franchises of the past.

by odradek on Aug 5, 2008 2:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think our sphere of influence in the region-including Akron, Canton, Younstown, Warren-bumps us up a little in the MSA. Those distant I-80 rest stops are full of Tribe fans after a game.

by jhon on Aug 5, 2008 2:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I bet there’s a revised statistical map out there that’s a better indicator than MSA for cultural / entertainment interests, for which people are willing to travel great distances to participate in. Brodcast areas aren’t necessarily bounded by MSA. Even if there wasn’t, the supply of major centers out there drops off pretty sharply after Cleveland; I think you’ll find that there’s an inevitabiity about the city having exactly three-not four, not two-pro sports franchises.

by jhon on Aug 5, 2008 3:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There’s any number of ways of parsing the geography. The Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor MSA is the 25th largest in the country. The Cleveland-Akron-Elyria Combined Statistical Area, however, is the 14th largest CSA, and the Cleveland-Akron-Canton TV market, which excludes Youngstown/Warren, is the 16th largest. Whether a region can support a pro sports franchise, of course, depends on a lot more than how many people live in the MSA, else the NFL wouldn’t have a thriving franchise in #153.

Biz Journals did a study in 2006 in which they tried to determine how much metropolitan personal income was necessary to support a franchise in baseball, basketball, football, hockey and soccer. MLS was the cheapest ($16.1 billion) and baseball the most expensive ($89.2 billion). Using those numbers, Cleveland can’t support another team, not even an MLS or NHL one (although it did miss making the 10 most overextended metros list). Indeed, the only markets deemed worthy of a baseball franchise are segments of markets that already have a franchise: Northern New Jersey and San Bernadino-Riverside.

Finally, while the main reason LA still doesn’t have a replacement for the Rams and/or Raiders is that local ownership and government can’t get their acts together, don’t forget that a new LA franchise would not be without risk to the NFL. The second-largest TV market without a team may be a head-scratcher, but an NFL franchise regularly outdrawn by USC and UCLA would be embarrassing.

by FredOx on Aug 5, 2008 3:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That all sounds about right.

by jhon on Aug 5, 2008 5:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, those fans didn’t get a football stadium built any sooner. I don’t see how Art Model is a bad owner at all. He sees Gateway get built at a time when there are no plans for a new football stadium. He got the short end of the stick, and it came as no surprise that he moved to get his piece of the pie. When the city didn’t blink, he did the smart thing and bailed. In his mind we’re the ones who betrayed him, no doubt. It took the Browns actually leaving to get those loyal Browns fans hip to the concept of the PSL.

The Browns leaving in the first place had little to do with the Cleveland market area; owing to its size, and the distribution of NFL teams nationwide, I think we’d have a good shot at getting an NFL team-the new Browns or whatever-in the city whether we so desperately wanted one or not.

by jhon on Aug 5, 2008 1:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Browns were regularly selling out a 72,000+-seat stadium. Yes, it didn’t have the luxury boxes of the new places, but the issue here was not fan response to the product. Nobody in Cleveland except Art Modell thought there was a problem with Muinicipal Stadium other than its age and some obstructed sight lines – it certainly wasn’t enough of a problem so as to actually keep a lot of fans away.

Muinicipal Stadium was an awful place to watch a baseball game. Richfield Coliseum was an idea whose time had come and gone. Both of those stadiums needed replaced because they were functionally obsolescent on a significantly larger level than Muinicipal Stadium in its capacity as a football stadium. I find it hard to believe that anyone in Cleveland besides Modell saw Municipal Stadium as a significant problem for the Browns.

Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Aug 5, 2008 2:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That was the problem, I think. They were doomed to be at an impasse.

I remain indifferent to the Browns, but I do regret that we didn’t put a dome over the new stadium and link it to the convention center once we had committed to spending hundreds of millions on it. What a senselessly wasted opportunity.

by jhon on Aug 5, 2008 2:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fans in this state like their football outdoors. They would have revolted at the thought of building a dome, even if it would have brought a Super Bowl to Cleveland.

The Shin-Soo Choo of LGT.

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 5, 2008 5:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The people who like football shouldn’t have a say on that matter. That’s between the taxpayers and elected officials, their appointees, and so on. The football crowd ought to be happy as hell the city funded a stadium at all.

A dome on a lakefront stadium (or preferably another location) should have been a no-brainer. Again, an adult should have intervened. Oh well, too late now.

If there wasn’t going to be a dome, and if it’s only used for football, someone explain to me why we built the “Waterfront Line”?

by jhon on Aug 5, 2008 6:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

for the rock hall dummy! I kid I kid…I’ve never been there, although I have been to the science center and it kinda sucked, but then again I’m not a second grader, i think it would be an awsome field trip for elementary level children.

by hans on Aug 5, 2008 6:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It’s been so long since I’ve been inside, I can’t say much about the science center. About 10 years ago there was talk of moving the Crawford Auto museum down there, but that appears to have permanently fallen through. It’s no great loss. University Circle is such a better setting for a museum anyways.

Any urban designer who has ever taken a serious look at Cleveland would have advised against programming the heck out of the lakefront with these entertainment venues. A significant green space would have been the best way to go, not that rinky-dink George Voinovich parks and whatever else is passed off as a park down there). Environmentally speaking, it’s wise to keep the built environment a little distance from waterfronts. I am aware that the site is a landfill, but contless landfills have been converted into better uses. I am highly skeptical of anyone who claims that environmental hazards of the site make it unsuitable for a park but compatible with a stadium. Also, the oppotunity to deploy a stadium as a neighborhood stimulus-the Gateway effect, if you will-is lost when the neighborhood is, well, a great big body of water on one side and railroad tracks on the other.

Muni was originly called “the Mistake by the Lake” for a good reason. Clevelanders have chanted this phrase hundreds of times and, astonishingly, repeated their mistake. I am not sure how this happened. There were several other sites considered. I’ll see if I can dive through the microfiche the next time I’m in Cleveland.

But it didn’t have to be all bad. The one advantage of the lakefront site is the obvious proximity it has to that crumbling “Convention Center”, which I believe once hosted a Republican National convention 90 years ago. That very well might have been the last major event held there. What an opportunity! This would have dovetailed nicely with the Hopkins runway expansion plans of the time, which proposed runways in the path of the I-X center. The city of Brookpark had raised a stink about it, naturally—but this project would have killed their business and given them little choice.
In the meantime, Pittsburgh built a state-of-the-art (but very flawed) convention center that absorbed whatever market there might’ve been for one in Cleveland. Ours, in combination with the stadium, might’ve been better. The facility would have been used much more than the single use sport palace we have instead. Shoot, tt might have even generated enough income to eventually pay itself off, and it needn’t have cost that much more than what we actually built, coupled with the miniature Waterfront Line which has absurdly low ridership statistics. We probably wouldn’t be hosting any more Republican National Conventions, but at least we could aspire to host a Super Bowl or something.

So, in summary, we built a stadium on a site where there really shouldn’t be one, and we failed to take advantage of the natural opportunities that site presented. We made all of the worst possible choices.

Pardon the screed here.

Good people of Montreal: learn from our mistake.

by jhon on Aug 5, 2008 7:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look, this is the same town that uses acres upon acres of fine, accessible lakefront real estate for private jets, airshows, and auto racing. I don’t know what you were expecting.

by fleerdon on Aug 7, 2008 12:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Burke Lakefront is not structural, its just fill. I believe. Jhon correct me here if I am off.

by joeee on Aug 7, 2008 1:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Burke is an old landfill. There are structures upon it. The Battery Park city high rises are built upon fill; you just shore up where you need it.

Burke could support a park or small structures as is. Why are we talking about this?

by jhon on Aug 7, 2008 1:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wikipedia….

Critics of Burke Lakefront Airport contend that the land on which the facility sits is far too valuable for the purpose of general aviation, corporate air taxi services, and serving as a reliever airport for Cleveland Hopkins International Airport. The land, located directly on Cleveland’s underutilized lakefront, could, critics state, be developed into a new business and housing district. However, such critics equate the lack of commercial service at BKL with an airport that is not essential to the region. If the airport were closed, many of the 80,000 annual operations at BKL would shift to CLE, causing congestion and delays at the region’s primary airport and thus impacting all service to the area. Furthermore, as air traffic is expanding each year in the US, BKL is prime airport for new commercial service serving Downtown Cleveland and the region. Major changes to the lakefront and BKL, are on the immediate horizon, as Mayor Frank Jackson announced that the Burke Airport will remain an airport and a development plan is being prepared.

Well, whatever. Count me with that first group.

by fleerdon on Aug 7, 2008 2:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mike Trivisano is a big Burke redevelopment advocate.

I don’t really have a firm stance on it yet, but this has been in the back of my mind.

The only thing I’m certain of is that the terminal and its grounds-an excellent building in very good shape-should be adaptively reused if a redevelopment were to occur. It’s only a very small portion of the site, anyways.

A massive chain of lakefront parks, and turning the barrier shoreway into a kind of boulevard would do all kinds of good. There’s no doubt about that.

by jhon on Aug 7, 2008 2:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why are we talking about this?

by joeee on Aug 7, 2008 5:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks Joeee. The implication of your foundation inquiry is that we should redevelop Burke with large structures. I was just confused about where that idea came from.

The Burke landfill is probably very different from the one the Stadium sits upon. I’d ask your geotech guy what he thinks about Burke and report back to me. No doubt he’d be thrilled to answer that kind of question. Apparently it can support small hangars, single storied terminals, a control tower; planes as they taxi around, the impact of a landing jet meeting the runway…

Speaking of which, I have a flight to catch.

by jhon on Aug 7, 2008 6:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I made no inquiry. I was responding to Fleerdon, who lamented the fact that it wasn’t developed. I was responding by saying cautiously, but with some degree of confidence, that Burke lakefront is not structural – meaning it cannot be developed. Soil won’t hold.

by joeee on Aug 7, 2008 6:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don’t they just drill down to bedrock?

by odradek on Aug 7, 2008 7:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bingo! Pay the man Shirley.

That’s exactly what they did for the Erie View Tower and the Cleveland Trust/Ameritrust Bank on Ninth and Euclid.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Aug 8, 2008 12:56 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Correct – Browns Stadium is on lakefront as well – they had to drill 100 feet down into bedrock and fill it with either steel or concrete, known as a pile. This is only necessarily for buildings with real load – a house, for instance, probably wouldn’t need it, but this is a big cost and consideration for developing the lakefront – if every building needs expensive treatment just to stand.

by joeee on Aug 8, 2008 8:26 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really enjoy this stuff and know absolutely nothing about it, so thanks to you guys for indulging me with this tangent.

by fleerdon on Aug 8, 2008 9:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Getting down to bedrock? For what? I’m still very confused.

I don’t know who has proposed anything with continuous foundation walls and subterranean floors ie a basement.

I’m sitting in a very nice single-storied ranch house in Houston right now that sits upon a slab-on grade. Imagining this house at Burke, however, I begin to wonder about unique waterproofing and thermal situations that magnify the cost. In any event, there’s not exactly a scarcity of housing in the Cleveland area, or a number of other inactive sites more suited to the construction of these small scaled buildings. And people prefer basements-they would in Houston if it were more practical. A slab-on-grade foundation would be very suitable for bathhouses, a tennis complex, the accessory buildings of a driving range—that kind of stuff. Those kinds of things could probably all be built at Burke within a justifiable budget.

It’s pretty clear that a village-scale development, should one ever occur, would require pretty unconventional architecture for Cleveland. Some clever stuff is being done or proposed for New Orleans that ‘lift’ spaces. It’s an odd comparison, I know, but a developer might have to start thinking along those lines.

Maybe it’s more trouble than it’s worth. There are countless things that can and should be done in Cleveland,

by jhon on Aug 8, 2008 9:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By drilling, you are transferring the load of the structure straight down into a big chunk of rock solid Earth. Think of the lakefront as water and the Browns Stadium as a suspension bridge. You cant bear too much load on water, so you did deep.

by joeee on Aug 8, 2008 10:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can’t tell who you’re responding to, I get the structural ramifications of doing something like this. I am not confused about that part. I illustrated this very concept as a 6th grader during our English class speech unit, by using a piece of american cheese and a pencil. The speech was a hit because of the absurdity of my visual aides.

Anyway, I understand the logic of anchoring structures and much of what that entails, but I don’t know anything of the specifics of the Burke site. What’s bedrock in Chicago, 40 ft – 60 ft. below? Is it actually -100 ft in Cleveland? I’d like to know.

Also, I am more concerned about planning and less with structures—it’s a given that it’s very tough to build at Burke. Have you recently seen anything in the Metro section of the PD? What plans of redevelopment are being discussed, if there are any? I don’t have anything more to say about structure until I have some idea of what must be supported.

I’d like to talk about the airport itself, and the theory behind maintaining it for its current use, but I’ll be gone for the next 3 or 4 days. Take it from here, Joeee.

by jhon on Aug 8, 2008 10:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Boss says 100 feet. But not cost-prohibitive by any means.

by joeee on Aug 8, 2008 11:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And jhonn – how about that “Swelling clay” down there in Houston?

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Aug 8, 2008 12:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh duh, I just checked wikipedia (always more correct and eloquent than I am capable of being) and it reminded me of the elevated slab alternative.

by jhon on Aug 8, 2008 12:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well jhon the bedrock depth in Cleveland near the lake varies – alot. I’m no geologist, but my understanding is that the Great Lakes were gouged out by a glacier which deposited a lot of loose soil up around the shore. The geology guys tell me that the depth of that “spoil” can vary significantly from place to place.

During its construction I worked as a laborer on the Cleveland Trust Bank building on Ninth and Euclid – insert age joke here. When the building was proposed the engineering firm sunk a number of test holes around the existing building – an old three story hotel IIRC – mostly in the alley off of Ninth Street. The test holes showed bedrdock at a depth of ~100 feet. After the hotel was torn down we started driving piling only to discover that the depth of bedrock under the hotel increased precipitously. In the end we drove some of the piling close to Euclid Ave. down to almost 300 feet. It took over a year to drive all of the piling, which resulted in a ~$4M cost overrun on a $48M project.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Aug 8, 2008 12:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good story. I’m not here for work, but it’s good to have a general idea of the different building conditions around the country. I think the IBC was the source that told me about the swelling clay phenomenon in the west and in Texas. I understand it only as it relates to small structures, not oil rigs or anything like that. My boss told me that you can typically work around that by digging piles a little deeper or by collecting the surface water to keep the infiltration level at more of a constant. Have your experiences taught you other methods?

by jhon on Aug 8, 2008 12:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yep, usta own a house built on a sla offa Richmond Ave inside the Loop in Houston.

The clay changes volume with changes in the water content, so the trick is to keep the water content constant, otherwise your slab cracks and distorts. So I had a moisture sensor installed along with a water “weeping” system. Whenever the moisture content would fall below a set level the water system would turn on and increase the moisture content. Seem to work pretty good. The slab never cracked and it had the added benefit of keeping elephants off the property.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Aug 8, 2008 1:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don’t know how it works in Houston, but in Cleveland, elephants never forget.

by odradek on Aug 8, 2008 2:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No one would be building ranches on property that valuable. Multi-storied condos and retail would generate a much larger ROI.

by emd2k3 on Aug 12, 2008 9:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That all depends on the source of investment (public or private), but with the difficulties involved in building at this site and the sheer value of the land, the thing to do is to wait until private developers come around. It could be awhile, however.

by jhon on Aug 14, 2008 3:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hello Brad,

I can understand that point of view, but I think having a retractable roof could have solved that problem, while also allowing Cleveland to host Super Bowls, which certainly would have benefited Cleveland economically, and the Cleveland economy is struggling right now (and has been for the last few to several years).

Therefore, I think not putting a roof on the stadium (and I think Mayor Mike White considered it, but there was the argument about the cost at the time, though the opportunity cost now is much greater than what that cost would have been at that time) was a mistake, whether the fans wanted football outdoors or not. In time, they would have adapted, and especially if that roof had been retractable (I think those types of roofs existed in the late 1990s when the new Browns Stadium was being constructed).

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Aug 5, 2008 8:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, a retractable roof would have been great. I have no idea how much more that would have cost or even if they were being built at that time, like you said, but if so that would definately have been the way to go. The games could be played outdoors in all but the worst weather and they probably could still have a grass field (like the new Phoenix stadium does—although I have no idea if that would work in Cleveland). That would most certainly guarentee Cleveland a Super Bowl as both Detroit and Indianapolis are hosting ones in their new stadiums. So I’m sure whatever cost would be covered by the ability to host more events.

The Shin-Soo Choo of LGT.

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 5, 2008 10:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was thinking of something more along the lines of the domed stadium in St. Louis, built a couple years before ours, which is located very near downtown. Or maybe Atlanta’s in a more Urban setting. Detroit and Indy are good examples of what might’ve been.
The retractable roof is a pretty significant cost—it depends on the design, a telescoping shed like Bank of Ballpark isn’t terribly expensive, although it wouldn’t be as technically marvelous as the roof above, say, Miller Park. But that’s not a big deal. If Clevelanders are really so adverse to fixed domes, we could have pulled it off.
I understand the retractable roof concerns of baseball fans. I was not aware of that purist element in the minds of football fans. Even so, if we’re only talking about 8 + 2 contests a year, versus an entire year of other possible uses of the stadium, why should the football people have the final say in this?

by jhon on Aug 6, 2008 9:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Having been to quite a few Rams games in the EJD and many Browns games in CBS, let me tell you that there is no comparison. I would say that the EJD is one of my least favorite professional sporting experiences.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 6, 2008 9:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hear you. I’m not saying there aren’t likely tradeoffs. I just happen to believe the tradeoffs are worth it. It’s not as if the CBS is a breathtaking Taj Mahal.

Are there any plans to sell the naming rights to the ‘Browns stadium? Or would that also inject panic?

by jhon on Aug 6, 2008 10:27 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Edward Jones Dome is just an awful place to watch a football game, and is probably partially responsible for the total lack of interest in the Rams. Nobody goest to the games. The Rams’ games were blacked out w/in the city last year b/c of the attendance rules and nobody really cared. I can’t imagine this team being in St. Louis in 10 years.

by ClarkM on Aug 6, 2008 11:09 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And I can’t imagine that scenario happening in Cleveland. We obviously we could have improved upon the EJD, but let’s say this exact situation happened—I’d still prefer it to what we do have in CBS / new Browns. an open-aired, single use football stadium is cool, but it’s a luxury I’d rather we not afford.

But that’s just my opinion.

I don’t expect the same of Jacobs /Progressive field because it’s used at least 82 times a year, and arenas and football stadiums are suited to a variety of uses.

The Browns leaving town was a blessing in disguise, and it afforded us an opportunity to think this project through… but then emotion and sentimentality got in the way.

by jhon on Aug 6, 2008 11:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can’t speak for the engineering now, but I do know from four years in Milwaukee that domes can be an absolute nightmare. The Miller Park roof was a mechanical wreck for years—not to mention the fact that several workers died building it.

by fleerdon on Aug 7, 2008 12:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am very aware of the challenges with domes. The crane accident was an isolated incident where the general contractor screwed up. They got the engineering and the architecture right.
The Miller Park example is very different though. I bring it up only as an example of design excellence. I would argue that the roof wasn’t necessary in Milwaukee’s case—retractable roofs over baseball stadia are a little frivolous in almost every case. I’m not pro-dome everywhere, for everything.

But these are just challenges, not a fundamental miscalculation or a total lack of vision.

by jhon on Aug 7, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think the case for economic benefit of a football stadium is far weaker than the case for basketball and especially baseball. And if the case for baseball is bad anyway, then it’s far, far worse for football.

That and the lack of real need caused the city to attend to the Indians and Cavs while ignoring the Browns. Modell’s move was inevitable at that point, even if we didn’t realize it at the time — somebody or other was going to write him The BIg Check.

Point is, as joeee implies, the Cleveland market had the ability to support an NFL franchise and wanted to do so badly enough, so it did so. That is a key difference between the Browns and the Expos.

By the way, the Expos were not a horrendously run franchise like the Indians of old, they were cranking out home-grown talent pretty well. But they had an emerging industry juggernaut in their division, and there was a four-team playoff format, and there was a strike — and it wasn’t a real baseball town anyway, not like Cleveland or Detroit or St. Louis. Had the timing been a little different, the Expos might have been more like the Marlins — a title or two and still no real fan base and no decent stadium.

by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 6:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought you meant premier league soccer. or maybe you did.

by afh4 on Aug 14, 2008 3:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Poor description on my part. I wanted to describe the critical mass it takes for which a city can sustain a team that competes in the highest caliber league, one in which average salaries are in the millions and revenues are in the hundreds of millions.

Like, an average city of over half a million (say, El Paso) cannot support even one major franchise, whereas a city of 2+ million can support three or more. But anyway I presented it backwards, for the city of 2 million—at least in this country—gets that big by having lots of important economic activity within it. But since cities can grow much faster than they tend to shrink, I feel that I’ve spoken too soon. I don’t know, I’ve already let myself go on a wild tangent.

by jhon on Aug 14, 2008 3:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While there are football fans in LA, there aren’t enough of them to rally like Cleveland did to get another team.

While I agree LA gets another team eventually, it won’t be because of the fans there, it will be because the NFL (and the media) wants a team in the #2 market of the USA.

Most people in LA I know prefer to have no local team because they can see almost every game, rather than have the “home” team blocking another marquee matchup that week.

While there are some heartbroken Rams fans in LA, they aren’t nearly on the level of say the Browns or Packers fans.

by talonk on Aug 5, 2008 1:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is pretty baffling that they still don’t have a team, especially with the NFL at the all-time Zenith of its popularity.

by jhon on Aug 5, 2008 1:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The theory I’ve heard is that it’s more in the interest of the NFL to not have a team in LA. That way, you get an endless parade of team owners telling their cities, “Build me a new stadium or I’m moving the team to LA”. It’s worked pretty well so far.

by fingolfin on Aug 6, 2008 10:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Olympic Stadium was a pretty awesome facility from a technical standpoint, but it just wasn’t a suitable baseball stadium. Built somewhat recently and at an unbelievable cost, I can understand the reluctance of taxpayers to support the finance of another venue.

The Expos were once a popular event, no? Does baseball ever get another chance in Montreal, like in DC, or has that ship sailed?

by jhon on Aug 4, 2008 1:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Baseball gets another chance in Montreal further down the road, as the sport becomes more international (rather than enclosed individual nations).

The Expos were briefly popular, as many things are.

by Jay on Aug 4, 2008 4:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

DOLAN IS CHEAP!!!

If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.

by gte619n on Aug 4, 2008 1:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your intelligent and thoughtful comment really enhanced our discussion. Thanks for stopping by.

Also, speaking of awful teams . . . how are those Reds doing? The Indians, in case you forgot, had the best record in baseball last year.

The Shin-Soo Choo of LGT.

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 4, 2008 2:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I always liked Jacob. He had a good year in 1994.

by odradek on Aug 4, 2008 4:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow … Brad already converted to picking on new guys.

by Jay on Aug 4, 2008 4:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He’s not new—he’s a Reds fan who just dropped by to make a stupid comment.

The Shin-Soo Choo of LGT.

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 4, 2008 6:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh, I mistook him for an Indiansfan.

by jhon on Aug 4, 2008 6:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m sure you meant “for an Indians fan” — not for an “indiansfan.”

by Jay on Aug 4, 2008 6:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

‘Yes, of course. I would have said “for the indiansfan” or “for Letsgotribe’s indiansfan” or “for minorleaguebaseball’s indiansfan”. Unless there are multiple indiansfans which, come to think of it, would account for his prolific writings.

by jhon on Aug 4, 2008 7:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And I noticed he wrote in the subject line, which Indiansfan never does, so I didn’t take him for an imposter

by jhon on Aug 4, 2008 7:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hello Jay,

I noticed that – but figured jhon just forgot the space and wasn’t referring to me. :-)

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Aug 4, 2008 10:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Reds fans know all about this.

by Jay on Aug 4, 2008 5:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think it’s safe to say that jacob brumfield is the Dustin PEDroia of LGT’s driveby posters.

If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.

by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:23 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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