Worst Lee/Halladay Article EVER
This article is the Ruben Amaro, Jr. of Cy Young discussions for 2008. I really am starting to lose my respect for THT if they let stuff like this get posted.
This guy is portending to go "inside the numbers" to show us how much better a season Doc is having. His "inside" the numbers include completely hypothetical statements, five of them beginning with 'if'. Furthermore, even using his "ifs," it only brings Halladay CLOSER to Cliff, not past him.
Real, Actual, Facts/Numbers:
WPA:
Cliff: 5.45
Doc: 3.65
FIP:
Cliff: 2.55
Doc: 3.04
Effective Win-Loss % (WPA Method)
Cliff: 0.813 (1st in AL)
Doc: Not Pictured, but below .691
about 1 year ago
gte619n
25 comments
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Comments
Don’t forget:
Lee, 17 wins
Doc, 14 wins.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
by rolub on Aug 20, 2008 8:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In the simplest terms, if Lee maintains both the lowest ERA and the most wins, he’s a lock based on the BBWA perspective. I don’t think the innings pitched thing counts for that much, unless the wins and ERA numbers a very close. For instance last year, with Beckett and CC, if Beckett had the lower ERA in addition to 20 wins, I bet he’d have won hands down. But things being as close as they were, they went with the guy who pitched more innings. I don’t think that’s an issue this year if Lee keeps it up.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Aug 20, 2008 9:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think all the article’s trying to say is that the season is not over yet and the Cy Young is still up for grabs. He talks about how a lot of people seem to be giving it to Cliff already because he has such a (seemingly) huge lead in the stats. This guy is just pointing out that Halladay has put up numbers almost as good while pitching a few more innings, so the difference between the two might not be as large as it seems. I think he’s just saying let’s see them finish the season and see what the stats look like. I didn’t see anything terrible about the article.
His point about Cliff’s run support is certainly valid, which is why his record is much better than Halladay’s. Of course, the writers don’t care about run support and will only look at their won-loss record, because, as you know, some pitchers “just know how to win games.”
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 20, 2008 9:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Just for my own benefit, how did Lee end up with 3 less starts? I don’t recall any DL time for Lee this year. That is how Halladay is getting those extra 21 innings on Lee.
by talonk on Aug 20, 2008 10:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lee didn’t make his first start until April 6th, game #6 for the Tribe. Halladay was Toronto’s opening day starter, so there’s a +1 differential off the bat.
Also, the Tribe maintained their rotation during the All-Star break, while Toronto bumped up Halladay one day. That could account for a 2nd.
And for whatever reason, I want to say that Toronto (once Gaston took over) was skipping 5th starter spots when off days allowed Halladay to pitch on normal rest. If someone wants to match up his game log to Toronto’s schedule, please verify/refute my statement.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
by rolub on Aug 20, 2008 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keep in mind Toronto kidded themselves for a while in the playoff chase, so skipping the 5th starter when possible makes sense.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Aug 20, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I recall correctly, Lee was skipped early in the season as he was the tribe’s weak 5th starter, and there were many off dates.
by oxforddave on Aug 20, 2008 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanx rolub, that does make sense.
Here are the days between starts for each (FYI Apr 1 to Apr 6 constitutes 5 days, not 4):
Halladay: 5, 6, 5, 6, 6, 5, 5, 5, 4 (RP), 5, 5, 6, 5, 6, 6, 5, 5, 5, 6, 8 (ASB), 5, 5, 6, 5, 7. Team Record 15-11 in his 26 starts (he had one relief appearnce for 2-1/3 IP, average IP/start: 7-2/3.
Lee 7, 5, 6, 6, 7, 5, 6, 6, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 5, 5, 5, 9 (ASB), 5, 5, 5, 6, 5. Team Record 18-6 in his 24 starts, average IP/start: 7
by talonk on Aug 20, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That author’s complaint about that the Tribe needs 25 wins to finish above .500 was kind of laughable since his next statement was that if Toronto won 25 more games, they would finish with 89 wins. A whopping 7 game difference. The teams are not that far apart (Toronto is beeter than us though).
by talonk on Aug 20, 2008 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s hard not to argue that Lee is having a magnificent season: the man is 17-2 on a team so far below .500 that it needs to win 25 games the rest of the season to reach that plateau
I’m not sure where you read a complaint in there. It’s more of an amazement that Lee has won so many games on a team with so few wins.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Aug 20, 2008 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also totally underrates string bikinis.
by Jay on Aug 20, 2008 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Toronto might be beeter than us, but don’t tell Jay. He hates beets.
by bewwolv on Aug 20, 2008 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
also, lest we forget, roy halladay is backed up by one of the league’s best defenses and is pitching in front of one of the league’s best bullpens. it should be noted that lee has markedly better defense-independent numbers than halladay (2.75 ERA to a 3.14 DIPS).
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Aug 20, 2008 1:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the number of links in this post is impressive
by Brick. on Aug 20, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Kudos on the link and impressive pics.
You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person
by jakesinger777 on Aug 21, 2008 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
[re-posting from another thread where I posted it by mistake]
The guy is making it much more complicated than it needs to be — perhaps having too much fun debunking Wins and ERA to just stick to the stats THT already provides, which are more revealing.
Halladay has amassed exactly one more PRC than Lee — 110 to 109 — and it’s taken him 20 more innings to do it. The reason is simple: Lee has been somewhat more effective in his innings, allowing him to suppress about the same number of runs in 89% of the innings.
Of course, it’s to Halladay’s credit that he has those extra innings, but Lee certainly deserves no demerit on this — he’s on pace for a more-than-respectable 227.2 IP on the season.
So it really comes down to … Lee has been about 10% more effective per inning, while Halladay has pitched 10% more innings. There’s a case to be made that you’d rather have the 10% marginal innings than the 10% marginal run suppression rate. The flip-side is run distribution — each has allowed 5+ runs ("tough to win") three times, but Halladay has six 3-4-run ("winnable") games to Lee’s three, while Lee has eighteen 0-2-run ("tough to lose") games to Halladay’s fifteen.
And in that slim margin lies the other main difference in their seasons. Let’s face it, Halladay has five 4-run starts, and if he allows only two runs in three of those five starts, he’d probably have 16 wins instead of 14, and the same ERA as Lee — and then we’d have a real close call. As it is, he’ll have to solidly outpitch Lee in the last six weeks to take it.
by Jay on Aug 20, 2008 10:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what does it say about me that i read the entire thing both times?
by Brick. on Aug 20, 2008 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That you love-love-love me and want to have 10,000 of my babies?
by Jay on Aug 21, 2008 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So classic.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 21, 2008 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Le at this point is almost certainly the leader in terms of who the writers will vote for.
As for who should win it? I’d probably give it to Halladay over Lee by the slimmest of margins.
by Joe. on Aug 22, 2008 4:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs


















