I think you might be flailing a little here, Travis. Laffey is still ridiculously young for the level of success he’s had, and he’s not leaving a club with three question marks in its rotation for the next several seasons.

But more to the point, you’re dramatically over-stating Francisco’s value, both to us and to virtually every other team. This is the most helpful discussion I’ve read about Francisco.

If he played a mean center field, or even an average center field, I think we could start talking about flipping him for somebody exciting. But, defensively, he’s a marginal corner outfielder, and he simply doesn’t hit enough to be a starter in the corners.

Anyway, on the list of things worth worrying about for 2009, Ben Francisco’s pretty low.

Yeah. I get it. I was just reacting to the idea that Ben Fran could be a great hitter. Anyone actually believe that’s likely?

but then I was like "meh, he’s not projectable."

i don’t know why, but i find picturing that hilarious. “What’s the matter Turk? They’re winning and that guy has to homeruns.” “I wish MiLB.com would rot in hell. Never mind. When’s Asdrubal up?”

yep.

well he’s the only one that’s actually gotten an opportunity, if by opportunity you mean play every day. and i don’t even know who the other people are.

and yeah i was being purposely flippant with “like 30”.

I’m not sure he “made the most of his opportunity” so much as he “continued to produce at his expected rates without falling on his face.” Ben’s career minor league OPS: 814. Ben’s career major league OPS: 816.

Just as an aside, Ben hasn’t hit more than 4 home runs in any month this year, so 18 is his absolute optimistic pace. He hasn’t slugged higher than .500 since 2002, so I would be really surprised if he ever hit 30 HRs.

Man check out the rest of our lineup. 830 is almost showing off compared to rest of our non-Gradys. I know we should set our standards as high as possible, but Ben can certainly be an everyday left-fielder for a successful Indians 2009 club. Especially since he’s shown that he’s not a platoon guy compared to his friends Frank and Shin.

people liked him too much

I can’t handle it when people start talking about “How are we going to hold on to Joe Inglett?!? What does the future hold for the incredible Jordan Brown?” Or Ben Francisco.

(You did see Inglett is starting for Toronto, correct? Therefore, Inglett is not totally useless, at least not in Riccardi’s eyes. :-)

I cannot imagine a logical chain that makes less sense to me. Or a more complete mischaracterization of my stance on these journeymen players.

Hello GFP,

No offense, but I don’t recall people falling “head over heels” when he was coming up through the Minor League system, so I don’t recall that many people even liking him that much as a prospect.

If you’re referring to his current success as a ML player/rookie, why shouldn’t he get some credit and some “love” for it – he’s doing as well or better than what most people were expecting, in a spot in the lineup where you wouldn’t expect him to play, no less.

In some ways, he reminds me of Blake – the “underappreciated, but solid” guy who has the chance to turn out to be a solid, complementary player, as Blake turned out to be. Why are people automatically thinking that he’s just going to fall “flat on his face” next season? Because he wasn’t highly-touted coming up through the farm system, but just steady and solid at each level?

Granted, I understand it will be his second season, so some adjustments may be in order, but it’s just as likely he’ll adapt in time, just as he has throughout his professional career. All he needs is a chance to do it, and really, I think he might be the best LF option to start off next year, when you factor in production, cost, and defense. Who else is going to fit that combination as well as Francisco, considering we have limited financial resources and we have other, arguably more pressing holes to fill?

I don’t see a viable option – Dunn will likely be too expensive, is very streaky offensively, and is poor in LF, LaPorta is not ready and likely won’t be until at the earliest late 2009 with a chance to start in 2010, and any other viable option (Rios wouldn’t count because you would play him in RF in all likelihood) will either cost too much in money, prospects, or both to make it worth our while, while providing production that will likely be no better than what Francisco can give you at a cheaper cost.

Therefore, like Turk, I too am baffled why there is so much hatred for Ben, who has done a solid job in a spot in the lineup you really don’t expect him to hit in, which is why I think he could improve a bit next season when pitchers aren’t concentrating on him, but on Sizemore, Hafner, Martinez, and Peralta.

Just my 2 cents – no offense.

Yep. Getting into a few interesting things here and there, but still kinda bored. It’s been a tumultuous summer and my roommate and I are moving now, which is why I haven’t been on as much as I’d like to.

Eh, chalk it up to fandom. It relates back to what I was originally saying. There’s nothing wrong with cheering for a guy and enjoying his performance and hoping he succeeds, even if you recognize he’s not the long-term solution. I’m not saying we should be putting him on t-shirts next to Grady, but sometimes I think we forget that it’s ok to like/hate players irrationally. I mean hey, it’s not like we’re talking about presidential elections here.

Hello Brick,

No offense, but there has been much criticism about Garko’s performance this season around here, and I remember people were cautiously optimistic about him even after last season, so I don’t think “they get a free pass at undying love forever.”

Regarding that last comment, I presume you’re referring to guys like Gutierrez and Marte. The difference between those two and guys like BenFran and Garko is, the former two were highly- touted coming up through the system and were acquired in trades, while the latter two were not highly-touted coming up through the system and were selected in the Draft by the Indians.

Therefore, there were higher expectations for guys like Gutz and Marte, being that there was more praise for them and we gave up solid MLers for these guys. That’s probably partly why many fans keep forcing them to “earn it,” whereas those like BenFran and Garko may get more leniency, though not total leniency (Garko hasn’t gotten leniency this year from what I have heard and read).

At the same time, as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, if an “underdog” prospect does as well or better than expected, especially in a spot in the lineup where you don’t expect him to hit, why shouldn’t he get some “love” and some consideration for a bigger role with the team than what was originally projected for him? And especially when Francisco arguably appears to be our best LF option to start 2009 in terms of offense, defense, and cost? Let’s give him that chance and see if he can improve upon the past season – we did it with Gutierrez.

Granted, Gutz couldn’t build on it, especially not right away, but just because Gutz didn’t have a particularly good 2008 means that BenFran will have an equally poor 2009. While BenFran wasn’t as highly-touted as Gutz coming up through the system, arguably, he was a more established hitter, being that he played college ball at UCLA in the Pac-10 and has basically performed at a solid level at every level of the Minor Leagues, so again, Gutz having a poor 2nd season doesn’t guarantee BenFran will have a poor 2nd season too.

Just my 2 cents – no offense.

my friends and i refer to those as the “matt lawton years” for that reason. those were the teams…

Woah. I typed like 4 exclamation points and threw in a couple of 1’s for good measure and SBN just straight up edited those out when I hit post. Good for them.

third place IS baseball

If by slightly better you mean his defense is much worse, I agree.

Hello peter m,

I’m not sure anyone thinks BenFran is a great player or will ever be a great player, but he looks to be a solid player and could be a solid, complementary piece, much like Blake became. That’s not bad, especially for a prospect who was often overlooked and undervalued.

Like I said, Francisco may be our best LF option to start 2009 based on offense, defense, and cost. Unless someone better come alongs that meets those categories (Dunn is not it and LaPorta won’t be ready until the second-half of 2009), let BenFran be the starter in LF unless he plays himself out of it in Spring Training. As mentioned elsewhere, we have greater concerns on this team (rotation, bullpen and especially closer, perhaps RF, 1B, and DH) than LF.

Just my 2 cents – no offense.

dude shut up we all know about baseball Ben Fransisco is a good hitter but he doesn’t have a head on his shoulders and just like the rest of the team he tries to pull the ball to much

Right. And, Ben’s not the team’s problem (or its savior).

Hello Cap’n,

I agree – if we had more consistent production from the other “offensive” positions – 1B/DH/3B, BenFran’s offense in LF wouldn’t be noticed much, but he’s providing more consistent production than the guys manning the 1B/DH/3B spots are. And, part of the problem with that is, there are several guys manning those spots, not just one guy, outside of Garko getting most of the playing time at 1B.

As I’ve said before, when you have an above-average offensive CF, C, and SS, you can afford to have one or two guys who are a bit below-average at the “offensive” positions. BenFran is really not the problem; the problem, as you pointed out, is that we’re getting less or virtually nothing from 1B, DH, and 3B. That’s where the problem lies with our offense and something that will need to be corrected in the offseason (Pronk returning closer to his “old” self would help, Garko either finding his 2007 version or getting someone else in at 1B, such as Victor playing there more often, and either Marte finally filling that 3B void or getting someone in there who can).

Just my 2 cents – no offense.

No offense, Andrew, but we should have made the postseason in 2005 and did make it there in 2007 without having mashers or above-average sluggers at every position. So, no, I don’t think the franchise is going to suck from here on out just because we don’t have mashers or above-average offensive players at every position on the field.

As Tox mentioned, the mid- to late-90s were the “golden years” for the Indians, especially in terms of financial flexibility and who we could sign; we really can’t expect those types of players and teams to come around for us in the current financial market and in the foreseeable future.

I’m not saying it couldn’t happen again – if we get enough prospects coming up at the same time and combine that with astute trades, it’s possible, though unlikely, we could have a team like that again, but chances are, it won’t be like that again in the foreseeable future. Fortunately, though, the Indians’ FO has figured out a way to reach the postseason and give ourselves a realistic chance to win a WS – through strong pitching, timely hitting, and solid defense, which weren’t exactly strong suits of those mid- to late-90s teams.

That formula should have led us to the postseason in 2005 and should have led us to the WS (and a possible WS victory) in 2007, so the formula can work – we just need to play our most consistent ball when we’re in the race, a trait that unfortunately, the teams under Wedge have not done enough of to this point. Hopefully, that will change beginning in 2009 and beyond.

Just my 2 cents – no offense.

well-rounded players who are marginal hitters

Does that really describe Ben Francisco?

Ben Fran is among the league leaders in outfield assists, isn’t he?

I’m not totally sure, sometimes I mess up understanding these statistics, so feel free to point out if something’s wrong with what I did. I went to THT’s fielding database, selected both leagues and LF. Ben doesn’t have enough innings to qualify, so I did a player search and looked up his RZR there. His RZR slotted in at fifh out of the 13 that qualified plus him. His 24 OOZ in 512 innings came in at 4th. I didn’t do a search of all LF regardless of qualification because of all the guys with like 30 innings out there. If I wanted a better search I could have also included other guys with as many innings as Ben, but decided not to, mainly because I’m lazy.

I don’t know if he’s played left, but he’s played right…should be able to play left as well.

Problem is, if we resign him “to play outfield” and are still trying to evaluate Marte at 3B, Blake’s liable to wind up at 3B again when Wedge grows impatient with Marte’s slow start.

If we could keep Blake in the outfield I’d have no problem with resigning him. Actually, if we get rid of Marte and can’t sign/trade for anyone else, I’d also be OK with resigning Blake. It’s better than having me at third.

I would love the salary though.

Blake played RF for a little more than two years and was excellent by every measure out there. There shouldn’t be any doubt he’d be one of the best LF defenders in the game.

Why would you prefer to spend that much on a 35 year old with a career OPS of .783 and likely not getting any better?

can’t really use pure OPS of LFers though. Its an easier league. Maybe OPS+ would work.

In agreement with the above.

The title of the original fanpost “Ben Fransisco [sic] Future in LF” is incomplete. But what should it be? It seems that everyone agrees he is not the future in LF, but it is becoming clear that Ben Francisco has a future in LF. This bodes ill for Dellucci, obviously, who is no longer capable of rotating into the other OF stations.
Are people cool with a Chootierrez RF-tandem that leaves Gutz as the spare outfielder? If so, then our 2009 OF is pretty much settled at this point, and we can turn our attentions to the IF corners.

I didn’t question their fielding i sed that they aren’t the best outfielders in all of baseball so i rearlly don’t get what your trying to prove here?

what gets me is the capitalization of “Rake”

YoU nO i’M gOiN cRaYzEeE

what is ur problem im still a kid so if u seriously get enjoyment out of harrassing me thats fine but it’s pretty sad

Would that be Cliff Lee? (Leigh?)

Srsly

nah this is great

“omg” ha….nice

thank you for helping me out there fwembt i don’t understand though why people are reacting to spelling mistakes i don’t feel like typing out the full words

Reminds me of translation of the dude and the old lady speaking Jive in Airplane!

What’s with all the Penn State love?