Game Thread: August 5, 2008
by Ryan on Aug 5, 2008 6:30 PM EDT
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PrintCleveland Indians at Tampa Bay Rays, Aug 5, 2008 7:10 PM EDT
Cleveland at Tampa Bay, 7:10 PM (STO)
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I hope the Rays become a perennial power and that we perennially destroy them.
Let’s go Tribe!
LeCavs!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
Looch 8 for his last 16!
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
we may have 15 guys who’d understand that, but i doubt choo is one of them.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
I am inordinately amused that Gamecenter reports the conditions as 84°F – Sunny. Warm.Wind: Calm.
--
In Cliff we trust.
(Read bottom-to-top)
Longoria struck out swinging.
Upton to third on Shoppach´s throwing error.
Upton stole second.
Pena hit sacrifice fly to left, Iwamura scored.
Upton walked.
Iwamura tripled to center.
--
In Cliff we trust.
Rockies claim Livan Hernandez… Help them.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Justin to see Dr. Andrews.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
It wasn’t the kid that got me. It was the guy’s hating on Jeter.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Aug 5, 2008 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
sir, I think you dropped this:
H
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jhonny!!!!!!!!
One day I'll get over to watch the Tribe play
by new zealand tribe fan on Aug 5, 2008 8:02 PM EDT reply actions
Canadians are a race now? Canada is like America’s little brother. Whenever we talk bad about them it’s always tongue-in-cheek.
I’ve never understood the disrespect for Canada. I’ve always thought Canada was the prettiest state in the union.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Has anyone thought to blame the new SBN platform for this whole year?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
It appears to be working for the Rays, so far.
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
Coaching staff?? Do something?? Maybe??
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
So is it wrong to root for the Marlins this year? I still hate the Leyland Marlins, but I’m torn between rooting for the Marlins and the Brewers in the NL.
I’d be frustrated to see C.C. win it this year after endlessly shitting his pants last post-season. He truly was awful. And no matter how nice a guy, the truth remains that he didn’t want to stay in Cleveland.
About the elephant in the discussion, I’ll just say we disagree.
I’d love to see C.C. succeed. He gets to play with a contender, he gets to hit, the team itself is pretty cool, full of young, likeable, good baseball players assembled in a very Shapiro-like fashion. I’ll root for that.
Since C.C.’s with the Brewers, I’m pulling for them now-but only slightly more than the Marlins and Cardinals.
I wasn’t a baseball fan till ‘03, so I don’t remember our loss to the Marlins in ‘97. I’ve liked the Marlins ever since the beginning of their playoff push in ‘03.
The Cardinals? Studwick!!!!
Which means I have to root against the Cubs.
Matt, trying to be nice about this … you are not allowed to like the Marlins.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Is there any chance that Marte gets waived before the end of the year, or does he get a chance to win the job next year regardless? I mean .165 sucjs pretty bad.
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work." -George Carlin
There’s no chance, because that would be stupid and pointless.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to take this pushiness one more step …
Only ten minutes left to do the disgusting favor for my buddy Jason.
And then we will never speak of this again.
You’ve gotta respect them for taking advantage of Grady’s arm.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
I’m sorry, I was looking at the wrong game log.
One-game hitting streak.
Jesus, this guy sucks.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel that Garko has three walks in his last 100 PA.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
But his glove power high average leadership skills make up for it.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You forgot his Stanford pedigree, but rec anyway.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I loved how he shot gunned a Bud Light after they beat the Yanks. Doesn’t that count for anything?
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work." -George Carlin
I mean, I’d like to give Garko the ABs for the rest of the season because, well, why not? But I’d rather just give them to Shoppach and let Victor play 1B/DH a majority of the time. If Shoppach really is going to do this, I’d rather the Indians go shopping for a backup C this offseason than a first baseman.
I agree. I think we have more to gain by learning about Shoppach than Garko. Garko can compete for a job in Spring Training, his trade value is zero and unlikely to rise by the end of the year.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone know anything on Victor? It seems like ages since the last update concerning the rehab of his injury and his prospects for returning at some point this season. It doesn’t really matter to me whether he makes it back this year or waits until next spring, though it would be nice to know that he’s on the right track.
I think Anthony Castrovince said he was taking batting practice and likely to begin a rehab assignment next week
by APV on Aug 5, 2008 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
If Grady gets a home run here, I will officially declare my very manly and brotherly love for him.
--
In Cliff we trust.
The counterculture always has merch.
I’m an FJM fan, but I am kind of sick of their schtick at this point.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t really come up with a good parallel, but it seems that if someone was a member of a counterculture, they would create the shirt themself, not have it spoonfed to them.
Spoonfed?
Are counterculture members opposed to hiring people to do stuff?
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see a problem with hiring people to do stuff, as that is the way the economy works.
My problem with it is, as much as I like FJM, I wouldn’t wear a shirt, because it would seem a bit pretentious, and pretention is the opposite of what FJM is trying to achieve.
A shirt is pretentious?
Don’t proletariats and humble people wear shirts?
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The shirt itself isn’t pretentious, the logo it carries is. I have no objection to shirts in general, or even shirts with logos. I think that a FJM shirt in particular is pretentious, because they pretend (or did for a while) to be anonymous and didn’t welcome adherents (by not allowing comments).
“The counterculture always has merch” would look good on a T-shirt.
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 5, 2008 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Won’t be easy. Balfour’s been that guy every year that you say “if he stays healthy, he’s going to do something big.” And he’s healthy. And he’s been great.
I would just like to add here that I think his last name is absolutely hilarious in the context of his career.
--
In Cliff we trust.
Lemme guess.
A SWING AND A DRIVE.
AWAAAAAAY BACK
AND…caught by the center fielder.
--
In Cliff we trust.
AWAAAAAY BACK, AND CAUGHT WITH HIS BACK FACING HOME PLATE
He didn’t let up after the out was made.
LGT's resident beer connaisseur.
i think francisco is going to make a great player someday in some competitve softball league.
by Brick. on Aug 5, 2008 9:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I could sure use him. We only seem to hit base hits.
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work." -George Carlin
It’s probably your bat. As I learned one needs to spend an upwards of $300 to get a good softball bat. Otherwise there’s no way to hit over .700.
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work." -George Carlin
I think Francisco hits the most balls that look like they’re certain homers but then fade into long fly ball outs that I’ve ever seen.
I don’t know, but I think he kind of got screwed on that. You hit a ball that well, you’re getting extra bases nine times out of ten. Hit it any better, ten times out of ten.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Any other part of the ballpark, it’s a grand slam.
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
What up boys?
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
What happened in this 3 run inning I see?
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
Wanna hear something funny? Mike Wilbon took KRod OR Joe Saunders over Cliff Lee for the Cy Young. his arguments were not convincing.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
WTF FAUSTO? How bad was he? Five walks? c’mon!
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
Not all that surprising given he was out over a month.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
So, from a Big Picture perspective, should I just cool out or should I start preparing for THE RAPTURE?
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
What are we taking wear? I take two nights off and I’m SOOOO far behind the curve.
Choo would’ve hit a bomb if he was wearing a sensible helmet.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
i have a sneaking suspicion he may turn around and approach from the other side one of these days…
you never know…
One of these days... bang, zoom, straight to the moon...
by mixmasterasia on Aug 5, 2008 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions
SWING THE FUCKING BAT
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
I see we’ve already covered the poignant Justin news….........
I bet Dellucchi did it to him in his sleep.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
I think it might be best if Garko were to go visit BEAUTIFUL Buffalo NY for a month.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
Now, now … Marte deserves a chance to suck for 500 PA, just like everybody else gets to.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
well hopefully he’s closing in on 500…and I LIKE (or liked?) Marte.
by ASP on Aug 5, 2008 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions
HUGE PICTURE ALERT!!
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
z
that NEVER happens.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Underwood: “That’s just not good pitching right there.”
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
Actually Manning said that. And he’s right, Betancourt is a moron for throwing in on Longoria after he just crushed two long flies foul. I hate bullpen 2008.
jody gerut was almost a hero for SD tonight.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Hello Jay,
Let’s see…
I
Can’t
Believe
What
Gerut (or Guys)
Talk?
How was that for a start? :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Thanks – three isn’t bad.
Yes, I think many Indians fans say that about former Indians’ players that do well and we get virtually nothing to show for it. Though we have to remember we’re not the only ones who go through that; before Hafner’s production fell off, probably Texas was saying the same thing, being that Diaz and Myette didn’t amount to much for them.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I liked Eva better when he was a hot chick on Desperate Housewives.
I liked Betancourt better when he wasn’t a terrible pitcher.
One weakness of Betancourt and either Martinez or Shoppach is that they always seem to throw fastball after fastball repeatedly to a hitter, often in the same spot. I know the fastball may (? – not sure) be considered Raffy’s best pitch, but still, his offspeed stuff is solid enough to get hitters out or at least get them off his fastball. After throwing a solid (i.e. 60 ft.) breaking ball near the strike zone, then return to the fastball.
That pattern above seems to have been the one negative with Betancourt’s pitching over the past few seasons. Now, though, he’s been off – I was thinking he was tired from last season, and he still could be, but his velocity was up tonight – 93 MPH on the gun in Upton’s ABs, where he missed two fastballs (and Upton is usually a good fastball hitter, even hitting a high fastball off Sabathia to CF for a HR early last season).
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
He may be throwing 92-93, but batters have been picking him up better this year. And, obviously, his control isn’t good. He just isn’t hitting the outside corner as much. He has lost confidence in his fastball. And because of that, he’s thrown many more offspeed pitches than previous years. His fastball percentage has dropped from 86% to 76%.
His curveball is average at best. Changeup is ok. Wedge made the comment a few weeks ago that he isn’t a one-pitch pitcher anymore. His fastball just isn’t the same this year.
Eleven homers in 47 innings. Wow. Good news is that he’s good every other year.
F this Fing Team. This F-ing BULLPEN is the worst.
F.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
Last year’s three contracts haven’t gone quite as planned.
Betancourt, Hafner, and Westbrook. That’s like, 1 Sabathia.
Hello, Juan Rincon.
Off with me. Running around to do and no other time to do it.
LG09
--
In Cliff we trust.
Can’t we just put a tee at home plate and save some of our bullpen for tomorrow?
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
On a high note, Jeremy Sowers pitches tomorrow.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 10:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You’re kidding.
Of course, don’t forget what today is: http://mistakesports.blogspot.com/2008/08/seven-years-ago-on-this-day.html
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
Speaking of The Marlins... and if you don’t like the catch you might like the 0:13 mark.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
This club may be more serious about a top-five draft pick than I anticipated.
I confidently predicted 8-10, and that’s still where the smart money is … but when you actually watch a game …
If that Top-5 draft pick is a stud prospect (like LaPorta or a top-flight pitching prospect, say like a David Price), would that be all bad?
I don’t think so – besides, at this point, does it really matter that much whether we win 75 games, 70 games, or 65 games? I don’t see much difference – we can still play well (especially Shoppach and Peralta, along with some solid ABs by a few others) and still lose, so I don’t know the number of wins is going to really dictate what we do next season.
Just evaluating the players on how they handle the situation now will help Shapiro who should be part of next year’s team and what he needs to acquire in the offseason. Getting back Martinez (and Hafner if he can ever find himself again) will help make this offense more formidable and a little more consistent, based on their previous track records, which is why I don’t see the number of wins really influencing the number of wins we have next year.
After all, adding Victor and Travis can only help (hopefully, in Travis’ case), and the guys who are batting in the middle-of-the-order (Francisco, Garko, Gutz, Choo, etc.) will be down lower in the order where they won’t be expected to do as much. That too can likely only help, so this team will be considerably different from the one you see now, which is again why I don’t think we have to win 70-75 games to ensure we’ll be contending next season.
Besides, if that were the case, we would have contended in 2006 and 2008 and not contended in 2005 and 2007 based on the previous year’s record, and that certainly wasn’t the case, so I wouldn’t worry too much about the record or who we finish behind, even the Royals. Next year will likely be a different year, as the last few years have shown.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
The way it looks tonight, the Indians have crapped out on five position players they were hoping would be big league regulars: Garko, Choo, Gutierrez, Francisco and Marte. That’s pretty amazing. You’d think one or two would have turned out to be league average at least.
Hello Toxicadam,
I’m not sure – I’m guessing because he wasn’t a “sexy” prospect with the greatest tools and that he was a little old for the leagues he was in when coming up through the system, but personally, I think he has shown the most promise of the 5 above, along with Choo. In the bottom part of the order, I think Francisco would be quite solid, and probably as good or better than any player we could reasonably get (i.e. without a major trade or a major contract) to put in the bottom of the order, so really, I don’t know why Francisco is sometimes treated more critically than the others. He was probably the least-regarded of the 5, yet has arguably provided as much or more than the other 4 (in 2008 at least).
Personally, I’m more disappointed in Gutz and Marte, and Garko to a lesser extent (only because I’m not sure whether the eyesight rumor is true or not). Choo has shown promise as well, which is why I can’t really complain about Francisco or Choo and hope they have chances in the bottom part of the order next year. Of course, they need to continue to progress the rest of this season.
As for the other three, especially, they have much work to do if they want to be Indians in 2008 in my opinion.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Have you seen him play the outfield?
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 6, 2008 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Indians scientists are working on a machine to merge the DNA of Francisco and Guiterrez. Stay tuned.
With the Indians’ luck, the resulting outfielder will field like Francisco and hit like Gutierrez.
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 6, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
No offense, but in defense of them:
Garko – had a solid year last year, has faltered this year – which is the real Garko?
Choo – has been mostly been beset by injuries and hasn’t had much playing time. He’s shown some promise at times.
Gutierrez – arguably, the biggest disappointment of all because he was getting the most playing time, but again, like Garko, had a pretty solid year (or half-year, in Gutz’s case), and has faltered this season – which is the real Gutierrez?
Francisco – As you mentioned below, Francisco hasn’t been that bad, and probably, has been the best of the 5. As I’ve also mentioned below, I don’t think anyone expects him to be a #3 hitter; in the bottom part of the order, he’d likely be as good or better than most bottom-of-the-order hitters, so in essence, I think he shows some promise, perhaps more than Gutz and Marte, at least from a consistent offensive perspective.
Marte – He really hasn’t had much chance to show what he can do, but admittedly, he’s probably the 2nd-biggest disappointment only to Gutz (as Gutz has had more playing time); Marte’s falling off after he finally got some consistent time is a bit alarming, though again, Marte hasn’t had the same playing time as some of the other guys, so we can’t totally write him off yet, but we’re not far from it in my opinion.
I can understand labelling them all as busts, but I think both Choo and Francisco have shown some promise in parts of the lineup they really shouldn’t be in (middle-part-of-the-order, such as in the third or fifth spot; they look more like 6-9 hitters to me), so I’m not ready to write them off as “busts” yet. As for Garko, I thought I heard something about his eyesight – don’t know if this is true or not, but if so, get him fitted with contacts, glasses, or LASIK (at least check him out) – he had a solid season in 2007, so I want to see whether 2007, 2008, or somewhere inbetween is the real Garko. Gutz and Marte are the two biggest disappointments on the list for me, but I’d still give them the rest of the season to see if they can show some consistency – otherwise, Gutz is probably a 4th/5th OFer and Marte is likely gone or a late-inning defensive replacement at best.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
You’ve got to stop saying “no offense.” It’s starting to get offensive.
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
He used to say it because he didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings.
In 2008, it’s a description of the Indians’ batting.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Aug 6, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
The road is littered with ball players who had one good season. See Angel Berroa (mysteriously still playing, but only because he’s a shortstop) and Jacob Brumfeld. Garko wasn’t good enough in 2007 to merit much further look. We’ve seen enough. He didn’t have compelling minor league numbers, did he? Same with Gutierrez. Both have played themselves out of starting positions, as far as I can tell. Consider Josh Barfield. At the end of 2006 he was one of the up-and-coming stud players in the NL. He stunk last year, didn’t show much this year, and hurt his hand just when he had a chance to redeem himself. Is anybody calling Barfield a stud infielder now?
I’ll grant you that Choo deserves a bit more of a chance because he has been hurt and is just coming back from a long time off. But otherwise, the “real” Garko, and the “real” Marte and the “real” Gutierrez are what we are seeing. Unfortunately you can’t field a team out of hope and memory. How long do the Indians play these guys to see if they can OPS above .700?
And, sure, Francisco should be hitting in the bottom third of the lineup, but do we want a poor-fielding leftfielder who hits eighth? I know batting order doesn’t matter, but you get my point, I hope.
Regarding Garko’s eyesight, this sounds like wishful thinking. Wouldn’t the Indians have checked this long ago?
I’m sorry, but I have to exclude Marte from the analysis, because he doesn’t fit the criteria — that’s why he’s such a sticking point.
Between the last 81 games of 2007 and the first 81 games of 2007, Gutierrez got 450 PA. Marte got 219 PA in the last 62 games of 2006 and the first 15 games of 2007 — that’s been his most significant tryout. And Marte, unlike the others, did have compelling minor league numbers, when he wasn’t injured and/or bored of course — but don’t laugh he was non-injured and non-bored for almost all of four solid seasons, and he kicked ass in all four of those seasons. So once again, you’re only sick of Marte because he hasn’t succeeded — not because he’s tried and failed.
I basically agree on Garko and Gutierrez, but I think that Barfield is not quite in the same category. His full-season debut in 2006 was a notch more impressive than Garko’s in 2007, and while Garko was 26 at the time, Barfield was only 23. I see little reason why Barfield can’t eventually find his way back to the general level he showed at age 23 — as Peralta has this season.
Regarding Francisco, I want him to fill a hole cheaply and decently, and we’ve had little better than holes in the corners the last few years. Hell, most seasons, I’d take Crisp back over what we’ve had.
I ain’t saying I’m sick of Marte. I’m saying we should acknowledge the possibility that what we see is what we will get. I like Marte a lot. I like the way the ball jumps off his bat, sometimes. I like the way he fields. But objectively, realistically, I would expect you to admit he has not—so far, in limited opportunities—shown much more than occasional flashes of promise. I’m saying that to date he has been a disappointment in his major league at bats (though I didn’t see him bat for the Braves).
I agree with you on Barfield, but I think he’s hanging by a thread. He deserves another shot, but even something as uncontrollable as a broken finger can be reason for a team to write him off. It happens all the time.
I think we’re pretty close on this. We may need to write off either guy or both guys, but that’s not the same thing as their having failed.
I “admit” that Marte has performed as you describe, but I just don’t find that surprising or even alarming. I’m genuinely not impatient for him to perform, I’m still waiting for him to have an extended chance to perform.
by Jay on Aug 7, 2008 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay, that’s fair. I’m not sure they have failed yet. But let me ask a question. And I’m only commenting on this because I am intrigued by the way we think and how we discern patterns or directions. What if Andy, in 414 at bats, was not hitting .191/.249/.329? What if he came out of the box like Jay Bruce, and was now hitting, say, .275/.340/.495? Would we be urging for patience and say, wait, he hasn’t really shown enough yet? Probably not, because we want to see him succeed. This seems to happen a lot to September call-ups, for obvious reasons, but we can see hopeful and positive trends when they aren’t necessarily there, but because we want them to be there.
I’m not citing this in specific reference to Andy. Just to how we perceive things.
I think there are plenty of players who get off to a hot start and then are essentially grandfathered in on their major-league career, based on a year or 400 PAs of positive performance. And similarly I think there are guys who don’t start strong and are never given a decent or fair chance to succeed.
I will not start by declaring “no offense.”
Here’s what you just wrote: Out of five Indians prospects who have crapped out, all five have crapped out! Apparently some folks need to be reminded, the core of our great 2007 club was guys in their 3rd or 4th full season, and we got significant contributions from rookies and guys in their first full seasons as well.
Funny how Asdrubal doesn’t make the list. Why not? And where is Laffey, and where is Carmona? Highly selective criteria.
Anyway, I reject the idea that these were all can’t-miss prospects, and I reject the idea that any of them have busted.
Garko always was a low-risk, low-ceiling guy. He made it to Triple-A quickly, did as well as could have been hoped last season. He’s having a very bad year, but one bad year does not equal a bust. I’m down on him, but he could well bounce back.
Choo was out for a year and has only had 189 PA since returning, plus another 48 in the minors. He’s hitting just below league average and is a fine defender. Clearly his showing so far warrants patience.
Gutierrez, high risk and high ceiling. He had a chance to be an impact player but was never likely to be a good enough hitter for corner OF — fortunately, he has the defensive chops to compensate somewhat. For him, too, it’s too soon to call him a bust, and he’s a valuable major leaguer right now, just not as a starter.
Francisco was never considered a major prospect, so I don’t see how he can be a bust. He’s playing above replacement level and has a solid chance to be a role player, still a small chance to be a regular for a few years.
Marte … I’m out of words. He got 40 PA before going on the DL last season, 57 PA in the first three months this season. Now he’s playing mostly regularly for a month after essentially a four-month layoff. There is a pervasive sense of disappointment that he hasn’t become a regular, but he bears very little responsibility for that. He’s been injured a little, he’s been given almost no opportunity — even now, he’s been the main 3B for all of 31 days, yet he’s only played in 21 games. He’ll end the season with perhaps a 250 PA audition — still nowhere near enough — hell, Francisco already has more than that.
Back in 2004 and 2005, Shapiro liked to talk about about how you don’t really know what you have in a hitter until you see about 800 PA in the majors. He was mostly talking about Broussard, who seemed to settle in around the 800 PA point but then disappointed after that. Based on 800 PA, it is very premature to be judging any of these guys other than Garko, and even the verdict on him is mixed. We are in a win-now mode — not at the moment, but generally over this 3-5 year period — and can’t be as patient as we were with players like this. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they can’t or won’t make it in the majors in the next year or two — with us, or with someone else.
Jay, I’m offended. I figured this was going to get your goat. Actually what I said was, out of five Indians prospects who have crapped out, only four have crapped out (see revision on BF). Cabrera, Laffey and Carmona are not on the list because in my subjective and entirely personal assessment they have shown enough promise to merit further play. They have met expectations, or in the case of AC, have shown some ability to correct earlier disappointments. Subjective and personal, indeed, but not outlandish to suggest that it may have occurred to shrewder baseball minds than mine that Garko or Gutierrez may never reach the levels that were once hoped for.
Nowhere did I suggest any of these guys were can’t-miss prospects (though Marte may have been back in his Richmond days, no doubt unfairly). Here’s how I defined them:
Five position players they were hoping would be big league regulars.
As I said to Indiansfan above, I was hasty and unfair to Choo, who deserves more of a chance because of his injury. And, sure, Marte hasn’t gotten a decent shot. But I bet he’s closer to being released than hitting 20 homeruns. Is that fair? No. But the irrational love for Marte—in which I share, because I want him to succeed—reminds me of Dr. Johnson’s description of a second marriage: the triumph of hope over experience.
How many teams can wait for 800 PAs? You acknowledge that the Indians are in a win-now mode and can’t be as patient as they might wish, but who other than the Royals can afford to give three or four players 800 PAs to determine if they’re any good? And I’m not taking exception with the 800 PA standard, which seems reasonable and prudent. But are you willing to sacrifice 2009 so we can see if Ryan Garko can do more than hit popups to short center? And then we can announce confidently at the end of 2009, well, Ryan just doesn’t seem to have much? What will distinguish the Indians then from the Royals, perennially waiting for all their young talent to mature?
And, sure, most of these guys will be on a ML roster in three years, but will they be league-average, replacement level players? Will they be starters? Will they be fifth outfielders? There are plenty of players who showed promise but didn’t perform well enough in an unfairly small sample and were released or otherwise sunk into oblivion.
Regarding my choice of highly selective criteria, I prefer to call it reasoned inference from available evidence to the best explanation.
I prefer to call it “naming a bunch of corner position players who have disappointed me.”
by Jay on Aug 7, 2008 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
That would be a long list that would go back to Max Alvis. But all I was trying to say was how unlikely it was that none of these five players—yes, I will go back to include Francisco—has come close to meeting any reasonable expectations.
Two things: first, I’d argue that the five players you listed have all performed about as well as would have been reasonably expected, given their talent and how they have been used. Garko and Francisco haven’t disappointed much, because “major league regulars” was not a reasonable expectation. Choo and Marte haven’t been given a chance. Gutierrez, maybe.
Second, it’s hardly a valid criticism to say that 100% of the players who disappointed you have been disappointments. Go back two or three years, make a list of everyone the club thought had the potential to make a real contribution, figure out whether they have, and then make an evaluation of the club’s player development.
But look at the performances of Garko and Gutierrez. You’re doing a bit of legerdemain here. They’re not disappointments because the Indians didn’t expect much from them? Then why didn’t the Indians have a better first baseman on hand? Before this season, if you said Franklin Gutierrez will have an on-base percentage of .262, but we’ll live with it because that’s about what we can reasonably expect, given his talent, people would question your acumen.
Here are some OPS+:
Marte 35
Gutierrez 62
Garko 74
Choo 97
Francisco 105
Small sample size! Injuries! About what we expected!
You want to tell me that ex post facto we knew this was what we’d see from these players but we put them on the field anyways? I know that’s not what you’re saying, but how can you say these numbers are not substandard?
Again, nowhere did I proclaim something casuistic like, A hundred percent of the players who disappointed me have been disappointments. I have already excluded 40 percent of the players who disappointed me from any objective indication of disappointment.
And nowhere have I indicted the Indians’ ability to evaluate player development. I said it is extraordinary to have five players fall on their faces (and I admitted my assessment did not apply to Francisco or Choo).
In any year you have outliers. Players who perform above expectations, under, etc. Lucky teams have good years from three or four players in the same season, like the White Sox in 2005. Unlucky teams have underperformances from three or four players, like the Indians in 2008. This isn’t my personal or arbitrary opinion on the performances of Garko, Gutierrez or Marte. It is a fact,plain and simple.
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