Game Thread: August 5, 2008
by Ryan on Aug 5, 2008 6:30 PM EDT
in Game Threads
453 comments
Cleveland Indians at Tampa Bay Rays, Aug 5, 2008 7:10 PM EDT
Cleveland at Tampa Bay, 7:10 PM (STO)
0 recs |
453 comments
Email
Print
Comments
I hope the Rays become a perennial power and that we perennially destroy them.
Let’s go Tribe!
LeCavs!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.
by Matt in LA on Aug 5, 2008 7:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
in the regular season and in the playoffs!!
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looch 8 for his last 16!
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
especially since we bought in March 2000
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Were you worried from Late ‘00 to Mid ‘04?
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
me? ask Shap.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tribe fans in the crowd right next to the mic?
LGT's resident beer connaisseur.
by LGT Patrick on Aug 5, 2008 7:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Manning just said “Here’s a guy who’s hot” to describe Dellucci.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 7:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
SHAC FLY
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
another lead!
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
we may have 15 guys who’d understand that, but i doubt choo is one of them.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you got me – only understand half of that.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
translation widget has filled me in.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Choo’s due. And what happened to Carl Crawford? His game is going backwards.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 7:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
any else having a problem getting the radio feed?
by oaksterdam on Aug 5, 2008 7:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
is the radio feed free? if so, where do i access it?
by c9kay32 on Aug 5, 2008 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not free, i’m afraid. available from mlb.com, just like the tv feed.
by oaksterdam on Aug 5, 2008 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably should have caught that, no? Not that it was easy, but was it out of his reach?
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 7:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
oh boy
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A side of STRIKES would be ducky as well, Fausto.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
is that out sufficient?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose it’s a start.
New ball game, etc.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought he was going to revolutionize the DH position though…
by Fundamentals on Aug 5, 2008 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did. A designated hitter is someone who has displayed talent at hitting. Jose Vidro revolutionized it by displaying almost no talent at hitting.
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 5, 2008 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s with the control issues this year? He walked 61 last year in 215 innings, but that’s not excessive. Consider that Cliff Lee walked 81 in 179 innings in 204.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 7:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
looks like we got Bad Rex today.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I am inordinately amused that Gamecenter reports the conditions as 84°F – Sunny. Warm.Wind: Calm.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 7:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dome baseball just leaves something to be desired.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, it’s an abomination. And it can only be cleansed by fire.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shoppach now at 4 of 27 on the year. Not all his fault, but where’d the cannon go?
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 7:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ugh, gameday not working either. can someone give me the pbp for this half inning?
by oaksterdam on Aug 5, 2008 7:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
got the radio, but how did the run score?
by oaksterdam on Aug 5, 2008 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sac Fly by some guy. Shoppach threw the ball into CF on a steal attempt allowing the runner to get to 3b.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
espn gamecast is working, might wanna try that
by c9kay32 on Aug 5, 2008 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good idea. mlb.com is very frustrating
by oaksterdam on Aug 5, 2008 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(Read bottom-to-top)
Longoria struck out swinging.
Upton to third on Shoppach´s throwing error.
Upton stole second.
Pena hit sacrifice fly to left, Iwamura scored.
Upton walked.
Iwamura tripled to center.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 7:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
(this was for oaksterdam. sorry)
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
GUUT
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rockies claim Livan Hernandez… Help them.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WHAT is O’Dowd doing over there? I know things came together last season, but that was such a fluke. His whole body of work is unimpressive, this year included.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marte sucks
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yea, it was a crap AB. Swing’s too choppy right now.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Justin to see Dr. Andrews.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
(trying not to gloat, trying not to gloat…...)
by oaksterdam on Aug 5, 2008 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(same.)
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a nicer way, Hammy implied “TAKE THAT STEINBRENNER”
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Such an outrageous request on the main page.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 7:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
seriously… we’d all need baths in holy water.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn’t the kid that got me. It was the guy’s hating on Jeter.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Aug 5, 2008 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We should elect a puppet governor and revolt to Indians nation.
Wedge: [letting go of Casey's hand] I'll never let go, Casey. I promise.
by cclemens31 on Aug 5, 2008 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is just so painful to watch. Throw fucking strikes. God.
by ASP on Aug 5, 2008 7:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey all. SO why does Fausto like walking people so much this year?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Aug 5, 2008 7:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
it just sounds so weird to hear hammy say “delucci has been red hot lately”. even with the lately on the end.
by oaksterdam on Aug 5, 2008 7:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
sir, I think you dropped this:
H
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
JHONNY
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 8:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
JHONNY
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Aug 5, 2008 8:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jhonny and Shoppach should have statues in front of Progressive Field. At least ones made of paper mache.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 8:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Walks and home runs, walks and home runs.
by Captain Pabst on Aug 5, 2008 8:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jhonny!!!!!!!!
One day I'll get over to watch the Tribe play
by new zealand tribe fan on Aug 5, 2008 8:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Garko you are such a putz.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 8:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok. It now takes five straight walks to tie this. I think Fausto can avoid it.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Underwear trying to talk his way out of anti-Canadian racism
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Aug 5, 2008 8:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Canadians are a race now? Canada is like America’s little brother. Whenever we talk bad about them it’s always tongue-in-cheek.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know, I’m mostly joking. He did seem to be trying to talk his way out of it though.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Aug 5, 2008 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve never understood the disrespect for Canada. I’ve always thought Canada was the prettiest state in the union.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If by pretty you mean gray and lifeless, then yes, I forgot Ohio.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fausto is getting the squeeze on the inside corner.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Further down that link, it still amazes me that noone can let go of Blake.
by bewwolv on Aug 5, 2008 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ouch – Gabe Gross? Triple? Make it stop.
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 5, 2008 8:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
z
I really dislike this year.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 8:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone thought to blame the new SBN platform for this whole year?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Aug 5, 2008 8:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It appears to be working for the Rays, so far.
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 5, 2008 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and not for Justin.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No matter how douchey, the guy’s only 22. He’s young. He’s always been told he’s special (because he has been, in the baseball sense). I hope he’s not hurt.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate when managers/coaches come out AFTER the damage has been done. Willis has to come out there and mix it up, but why not do it before the hell ensues?
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fire up the old Mujica. This one’s going to the pen.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Coaching staff?? Do something?? Maybe??
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 8:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wedge will die before he removes his pitcher before the 5th inning in an attempt to get him the win. I’m ok with letting the guys go through their battles on the field. But this is just discouraging for Fausto.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I expect nothing less than 5 runs next inning from our offense.
Well, I do!
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 8:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So is it wrong to root for the Marlins this year? I still hate the Leyland Marlins, but I’m torn between rooting for the Marlins and the Brewers in the NL.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brewers. Shouldn’t even need to think about it.
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d be frustrated to see C.C. win it this year after endlessly shitting his pants last post-season. He truly was awful. And no matter how nice a guy, the truth remains that he didn’t want to stay in Cleveland.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
About the elephant in the discussion, I’ll just say we disagree.
I’d love to see C.C. succeed. He gets to play with a contender, he gets to hit, the team itself is pretty cool, full of young, likeable, good baseball players assembled in a very Shapiro-like fashion. I’ll root for that.
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t say I don’t want them to win. I just said that I’d be frustrated in the event they do win. But again, the two teams I’m pulling for are the Marlins and Brewers.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can definitely understand frustration.
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since C.C.’s with the Brewers, I’m pulling for them now-but only slightly more than the Marlins and Cardinals.
I wasn’t a baseball fan till ‘03, so I don’t remember our loss to the Marlins in ‘97. I’ve liked the Marlins ever since the beginning of their playoff push in ‘03.
The Cardinals? Studwick!!!!
Which means I have to root against the Cubs.
by Matt Y. on Aug 5, 2008 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt, trying to be nice about this … you are not allowed to like the Marlins.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there any chance that Marte gets waived before the end of the year, or does he get a chance to win the job next year regardless? I mean .165 sucjs pretty bad.
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work." -George Carlin
by RD74 on Aug 5, 2008 8:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There’s no chance, because that would be stupid and pointless.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok, just checking. thanks
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work." -George Carlin
by RD74 on Aug 5, 2008 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to post about how hot he’s been since the Blake trade…then saw he’s OPSing .391 since then.
But I agree with everyone else: that would be incredibly stupid.
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to take this pushiness one more step …
Only ten minutes left to do the disgusting favor for my buddy Jason.
And then we will never speak of this again.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 8:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m trying my best. BTW, GDI SHOPPACH!!!
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
by jerseywahoo on Aug 5, 2008 8:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Just tuning in…what’s the verdict on Carmona tonight. Was he just completely wild?
by APV on Aug 5, 2008 8:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Just tuning in…what’s the verdict on Carmona tonight this year. Was he just completely wild?
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crazy wild. Didn’t get a couple strike calls early in some counts, and, aside from those, was no where close.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grady’s next home run will tie his career high single season mark.
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 8:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
At least there is something to look forward to.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A good throw by Grady nails Pena
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 5, 2008 8:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You’ve gotta respect them for taking advantage of Grady’s arm.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 8:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You’ve gotta bench Grady for not hustling to the ball.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CLE will win this game. Lewis, Mujica, and Masa are gonna shut it down.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn’t matter if they somehow “shut it down” if the offense can’t score runs.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has the offense been bad? They’ve been on base all day, and they’ve scored 3 runs in 5 innings.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I desperately want to believe my own bull.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sorry, I was looking at the wrong game log.
One-game hitting streak.
Jesus, this guy sucks.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel that Garko has three walks in his last 100 PA.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But his glove power high average leadership skills make up for it.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You forgot his Stanford pedigree, but rec anyway.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I loved how he shot gunned a Bud Light after they beat the Yanks. Doesn’t that count for anything?
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work." -George Carlin
by RD74 on Aug 5, 2008 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is the reason he hasn’t yet been DFA’d.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, I’d like to give Garko the ABs for the rest of the season because, well, why not? But I’d rather just give them to Shoppach and let Victor play 1B/DH a majority of the time. If Shoppach really is going to do this, I’d rather the Indians go shopping for a backup C this offseason than a first baseman.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I’d rather not buy in on Kevin Millar
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. I think we have more to gain by learning about Shoppach than Garko. Garko can compete for a job in Spring Training, his trade value is zero and unlikely to rise by the end of the year.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Underpants with the glass-half-full call on Marte’s 17th straight out.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone know anything on Victor? It seems like ages since the last update concerning the rehab of his injury and his prospects for returning at some point this season. It doesn’t really matter to me whether he makes it back this year or waits until next spring, though it would be nice to know that he’s on the right track.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 9:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Anthony Castrovince said he was taking batting practice and likely to begin a rehab assignment next week
by APV on Aug 5, 2008 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
gettin ready for a rehab assignment. back within the month.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well that’s good news. More Vic would, at least I think, mean less Garko, which would be awesome.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Grady gets a home run here, I will officially declare my very manly and brotherly love for him.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I is not good with them words.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wedge cannot let Dellucci hit if he gets the chance this inning.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Aaaaand it’s Ben Fran.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
on a random note: Anyone else a little shocked to see FJM selling merchandise?
by bewwolv on Aug 5, 2008 9:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is it those two shirts? they’ve been there for a year i think.
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah, my bad. my RSS feed hasn’t updated yet
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and to actually answer the question, no, i’m not shocked, and a fremulon shirt instantly goes on my list of “stuff I want to own but would never actually spend money on”
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well color me uninformed.
Something not right about an anti-mainstream website selling merchandise.
by bewwolv on Aug 5, 2008 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The two “FJM” shirts have been for sale for about a year. And they’re anti-main stream baseball reporting, not anti-money. I’d say.
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The counterculture always has merch.
I’m an FJM fan, but I am kind of sick of their schtick at this point.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m kinda glad ol’ Ken/Mike/Mose is getting tired of Joe Chats.
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t really come up with a good parallel, but it seems that if someone was a member of a counterculture, they would create the shirt themself, not have it spoonfed to them.
by bewwolv on Aug 5, 2008 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spoonfed?
Are counterculture members opposed to hiring people to do stuff?
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t see a problem with hiring people to do stuff, as that is the way the economy works.
My problem with it is, as much as I like FJM, I wouldn’t wear a shirt, because it would seem a bit pretentious, and pretention is the opposite of what FJM is trying to achieve.
by bewwolv on Aug 5, 2008 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A shirt is pretentious?
Don’t proletariats and humble people wear shirts?
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The shirt itself isn’t pretentious, the logo it carries is. I have no objection to shirts in general, or even shirts with logos. I think that a FJM shirt in particular is pretentious, because they pretend (or did for a while) to be anonymous and didn’t welcome adherents (by not allowing comments).
by bewwolv on Aug 5, 2008 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They still don’t allow comments.
Remember when they did, for one post?
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By did for a while, I meant remain anonymous.
True, the comment situation was a disaster.
by bewwolv on Aug 5, 2008 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally liked ‘em better when I found out Ken was Mose. Only a little bit, but the change was there.
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It made sense to me when his identity was revealed, because the writing was so good, but I felt like the site lost a little bit of its innocence.
by bewwolv on Aug 5, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“The counterculture always has merch” would look good on a T-shirt.
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 5, 2008 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
let’s do it.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Underwood is an idiot. They did not pitch around Grady.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Won’t be easy. Balfour’s been that guy every year that you say “if he stays healthy, he’s going to do something big.” And he’s healthy. And he’s been great.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would just like to add here that I think his last name is absolutely hilarious in the context of his career.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha ha. Well spotted.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s good. i didn’t catch it until you mentioned it.
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work." -George Carlin
by RD74 on Aug 5, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NOOOOOOOO WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 9:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lemme guess.
A SWING AND A DRIVE.
AWAAAAAAY BACK
AND…caught by the center fielder.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
correct except it was more like:
AND…HE MADE THE CATCH!
by Voltaire on Aug 5, 2008 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AWAAAAAY BACK, AND CAUGHT WITH HIS BACK FACING HOME PLATE
He didn’t let up after the out was made.
LGT's resident beer connaisseur.
by LGT Patrick on Aug 5, 2008 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a lot less suspenseful if you saw it rather than heard it. Off the bat I had hope, though. Ugh…there’s always hope.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s still not letting up in the bottom half on the innning
by SanD on Aug 5, 2008 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Upton just glided back and snagged it. No sweat.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i think francisco is going to make a great player someday in some competitve softball league.
by Brick. on Aug 5, 2008 9:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I could sure use him. We only seem to hit base hits.
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work." -George Carlin
by RD74 on Aug 5, 2008 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i have a pretty empty batting average myself.
by Brick. on Aug 5, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s probably your bat. As I learned one needs to spend an upwards of $300 to get a good softball bat. Otherwise there’s no way to hit over .700.
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work." -George Carlin
by RD74 on Aug 5, 2008 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, it’s my physique. i run marathons and haven’t lifted a weight in a gym in my entire life.
by Brick. on Aug 5, 2008 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You sir, should be the designated bunter, or as Mr. Wedge would say, cleanup hitter.
LGT's resident beer connaisseur.
by LGT Patrick on Aug 5, 2008 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah im kind of the same, just singles. no way I’ll ever hit one out. i can leg out a triple but would most likely pull both hamstrings in the process.
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work." -George Carlin
by RD74 on Aug 5, 2008 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Francisco hits the most balls that look like they’re certain homers but then fade into long fly ball outs that I’ve ever seen.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 9:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So, he’d be a total demon in Fenway.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he’s “a right-handed brandon moss”... so you might be up to something.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know, but I think he kind of got screwed on that. You hit a ball that well, you’re getting extra bases nine times out of ten. Hit it any better, ten times out of ten.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any other part of the ballpark, it’s a grand slam.
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 5, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And in most other parks, I think he had the dinger.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i feel-pure gut feel-watching francisco that something is missing. offense and defense.
by Brick. on Aug 5, 2008 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don’t need a gut feel on the defense part. :)
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m telling you. He’s Jay Payton, with less speed. Not cool.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What up boys?
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
sorry to hear that.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That, is NOT good.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What happened in this 3 run inning I see?
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
well shit. Now I’m gonna have to go look.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wanna hear something funny? Mike Wilbon took KRod OR Joe Saunders over Cliff Lee for the Cy Young. his arguments were not convincing.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wanna hear something sad? Those are the kind of “experts” that vote.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HERE WE GO
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 9:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Peralta has been something of a stud this season
by APV on Aug 5, 2008 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WTF FAUSTO? How bad was he? Five walks? c’mon!
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bad. But he then had an inning where he just mowed ‘em down. Meh.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not all that surprising given he was out over a month.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, from a Big Picture perspective, should I just cool out or should I start preparing for THE RAPTURE?
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s given up only 2 HR in nearly 70 innings this year. He’s going to be ok. They can’t hit him.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are just buzzed now, they are not drunk.
LGT's resident beer connaisseur.
by LGT Patrick on Aug 5, 2008 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don’t know why, but carmona’s control really isn’t bothering me much. this is the year for it to suck. his stuff is still there, and he isn’t visiting dr. andrews for anything. i feel like they can fix the control. he’s still a baby.
by Brick. on Aug 5, 2008 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is the year for it to suck
New motto?
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about that first-to-third by Shoppach on a single?
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kelly Hustle.
I like the sound of it.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shoppach in drag.
ew.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or an actress from the Anthony Spinelli stable.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please. Useless flyball to medium deep LF.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
G. Balfour pitches to S. Double.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What are we taking wear? I take two nights off and I’m SOOOO far behind the curve.
Choo would’ve hit a bomb if he was wearing a sensible helmet.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i have a sneaking suspicion he may turn around and approach from the other side one of these days…
you never know…
One of these days... bang, zoom, straight to the moon...
by mixmasterasia on Aug 5, 2008 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am also not left handed.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys are absolutely talking gibberish.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crap. More like S. Strikeout.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ugh
One of these days... bang, zoom, straight to the moon...
by mixmasterasia on Aug 5, 2008 9:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dude. This umpire squeezed Fausto, and has gifted the Rays all night.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i think the same umpire has given fausto fits in the past.
by Brick. on Aug 5, 2008 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s just inconsistent. The same pitch that he calls a strike on the outside corner to the RH batters he wouldn’t give Fausto on the inside corner to the lefties.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know Hammy has complained about this dude in the past.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
SWING THE FUCKING BAT
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 9:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Redemption time, Garko.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he’s more likely to spray beer at the umpire.
by Brick. on Aug 5, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I shit you not, it was at his eye level. No exaggeration. I want a still frame of that framed on my wall.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Oakland lost, but this Ziegler fellow really is something.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 9:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
CALL A SUICIDE SQUEEZE OR SOMETHING. GAWD.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I see we’ve already covered the poignant Justin news….........
I bet Dellucchi did it to him in his sleep.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He stole Jhonny’s H?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The curse of Yankee Stadium.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was told that Justin, Ian Kennedy, Ross Olhendorf and Philip Hughes were going to go 162-0 combined.
I feel so cheated.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he probably jarred awake and messed up his arm having a nightmare about that pinch hit dinger.
by Brick. on Aug 5, 2008 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Garko: Professional Popupper.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 9:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Geez Garko, you’re a major league veteran AND a Stanford grad, and you swung at THAT?
by SuddenSam on Aug 5, 2008 9:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The pitches he swung at in that at-bat should earn him an immediate removal from the game.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, we need to send him down. Or sideways.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I am going to lose more hair from watching this team than from any other factor.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
how can you be sure we want to?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it might be best if Garko were to go visit BEAUTIFUL Buffalo NY for a month.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Willis McGahee can show him around the city.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
save it for next year. we’re going to need it.
by Brick. on Aug 5, 2008 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does he only have one option left?
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. HIT BALL
2. SCORE RUNNER
REALLY, IT’S THAT EASY.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gutierrez is so due, it’s not even funny. Cut the cute stuff and hit the ball.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
D. Gascan has relieved SG. Balfour.
(crosses fingers)
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jason Davis pitches for the Rays?
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I blame Garko.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 9:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gutz, Marte, Garko, all suck. Time to move on.
by ASP on Aug 5, 2008 9:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Now, now … Marte deserves a chance to suck for 500 PA, just like everybody else gets to.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
well hopefully he’s closing in on 500…and I LIKE (or liked?) Marte.
by ASP on Aug 5, 2008 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our useless batters were doing their useless things in the wrong order.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
just unlucky is what we are.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that treat last inning was a little more than bad luck.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Franky is killing me. I want this guy to succeed at the plate so much …
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 9:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ed Rapuano is a complete PEDroia.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, Jensen Lewis looked ok tonight, eh?
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 10:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
HUGE PICTURE ALERT!!
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is Underwood so excited about the Rays?
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 10:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yikes.
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
by Fire Slider on Aug 5, 2008 10:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So Justin Chamberlain is going to see Dr. Andrews? Uh-oh…
by APV on Aug 5, 2008 10:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
z
that NEVER happens.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 10:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I mean, that’s a joke, right?
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
by Fire Slider on Aug 5, 2008 10:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Betancourt just gave up 3 homers this inning.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 10:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Underwood: “That’s just not good pitching right there.”
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
by Fire Slider on Aug 5, 2008 10:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually Manning said that. And he’s right, Betancourt is a moron for throwing in on Longoria after he just crushed two long flies foul. I hate bullpen 2008.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh no that was definitely Underpants.
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
by Fire Slider on Aug 5, 2008 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But I’m a retard, so who knows.
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
by Fire Slider on Aug 5, 2008 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, I don’t want to be confrontational but you’re definitely wrong. It was Manning.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Dad says it was Manning too. But Dad’s right less than I am…
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
by Fire Slider on Aug 5, 2008 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That looked like the longest ball I’ve seen this year, seriously.
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
by Fire Slider on Aug 5, 2008 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m surprised that ball by Longoria didn’t punch a hole in the back of the Trop.
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 5, 2008 10:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
jody gerut was almost a hero for SD tonight.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 10:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m not even going to attempt to decipher that. I’m just going to assume that’s the text version of choking on a pretzel while trying to yell at the TV.
by APV on Aug 5, 2008 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello Jay,
Let’s see…
I
Can’t
Believe
What
Gerut (or Guys)
Talk?
How was that for a start? :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Aug 5, 2008 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn’t gonna try.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I
Can’t
Believe
What
Gerut
Turned
(G) Into
Under
Frank
Nutman
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You got the first three.
It’s something Indians fans always say about a former Indian.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I cant believe we gave the guy up for nothing.
What do I win?
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s cool. I just want to know if I got it. I think I did.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You got it.
I was thinking “that” rather than “the,” but you get full credit.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks – three isn’t bad.
Yes, I think many Indians fans say that about former Indians’ players that do well and we get virtually nothing to show for it. Though we have to remember we’re not the only ones who go through that; before Hafner’s production fell off, probably Texas was saying the same thing, being that Diaz and Myette didn’t amount to much for them.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Aug 5, 2008 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s just no excuse for that. He threw a changeup that made it about 55 feet toward homeplate. It was not even remotely chaseable. Then he decides “I threw one offspeed” so I’m going back to the fastball. Go home, Raffy. Go home.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 10:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I liked Eva better when he was a hot chick on Desperate Housewives.
I liked Betancourt better when he wasn’t a terrible pitcher.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 10:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think you mean “she” in the top sentence, or else I have no idea what you’re talking about.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, now she’s a dude, and Betancourt throws like a girl.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One weakness of Betancourt and either Martinez or Shoppach is that they always seem to throw fastball after fastball repeatedly to a hitter, often in the same spot. I know the fastball may (? – not sure) be considered Raffy’s best pitch, but still, his offspeed stuff is solid enough to get hitters out or at least get them off his fastball. After throwing a solid (i.e. 60 ft.) breaking ball near the strike zone, then return to the fastball.
That pattern above seems to have been the one negative with Betancourt’s pitching over the past few seasons. Now, though, he’s been off – I was thinking he was tired from last season, and he still could be, but his velocity was up tonight – 93 MPH on the gun in Upton’s ABs, where he missed two fastballs (and Upton is usually a good fastball hitter, even hitting a high fastball off Sabathia to CF for a HR early last season).
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Aug 5, 2008 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He may be throwing 92-93, but batters have been picking him up better this year. And, obviously, his control isn’t good. He just isn’t hitting the outside corner as much. He has lost confidence in his fastball. And because of that, he’s thrown many more offspeed pitches than previous years. His fastball percentage has dropped from 86% to 76%.
His curveball is average at best. Changeup is ok. Wedge made the comment a few weeks ago that he isn’t a one-pitch pitcher anymore. His fastball just isn’t the same this year.
Eleven homers in 47 innings. Wow. Good news is that he’s good every other year.
by TribeJay on Aug 6, 2008 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rafffffffy
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
by Fire Slider on Aug 5, 2008 10:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
F this Fing Team. This F-ing BULLPEN is the worst.
F.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. I feel like I’m gonna puke.
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last year’s three contracts haven’t gone quite as planned.
Betancourt, Hafner, and Westbrook. That’s like, 1 Sabathia.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 10:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, those three contracts combined are just about what C.C. rejected.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More home runs. At least all hope for a comeback is now gone. I can go do something else I guess.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 10:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the Rays have found their mojo again.
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 5, 2008 10:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cliff Fucking Floyd? CLIFF FLOYD??!?
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Apparently Wedge hates Betancourt. That’s a +1 for Wedge IMO.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 10:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I said Lewis, Mujica, and Masa would shut down the Rays. No where did I mention Betancourt. Dammit, Wedge.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 10:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hello, Juan Rincon.
Off with me. Running around to do and no other time to do it.
LG09
--
In Cliff we trust.
by vbc3 on Aug 5, 2008 10:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
good decision.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ANOTHER
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 10:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
wow, ya think this took long enough to show up?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ANOTHER, really this time.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 10:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If I wasn’t such a fucking masochistic idiot I would go do something else.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Can’t we just put a tee at home plate and save some of our bullpen for tomorrow?
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 5, 2008 10:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Better to let Rincon get his innings out of the way in this game.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On a high note, Jeremy Sowers pitches tomorrow.
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 10:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
oh boy.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sigh…I remember when Rincon and Betancourt were two of the best RPs in the AL. Seems like that was so long ago now.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 10:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You’re kidding.
Of course, don’t forget what today is: http://mistakesports.blogspot.com/2008/08/seven-years-ago-on-this-day.html
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
by Fire Slider on Aug 5, 2008 10:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I really like the look of that fangraph. Remembering that game makes me smile.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love the part where the Indians score SEVEN runs in the 7th and 8th … and the Mariners’ win expectancy is still 99% at the end of the inning. And then the Indians win anyway.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of The Marlins... and if you don’t like the catch you might like the 0:13 mark.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 10:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mastny’s mouth is watering.
“It’s almost my turn.”
by xrickx on Aug 5, 2008 10:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
AN OUT! AN OUT!!
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Marte is sweet when it doesn’t matter. F him too.
by obobcatu on Aug 5, 2008 10:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
MARTE PARTY!!
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WHOOOOAO
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Aug 5, 2008 10:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
COMEBACK ALERT!!! COMEBACK ALERT!!!
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
STEAL!
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t understand why he isn’t hitting more bombs or stealing more bases. Doesn’t he understand that there are people DEPENDING on him??
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, yes, the problem is the RISP, since we’re “outhitting” them 11-9.
It couldn’t be that they’re out-slugging us 23-16.
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 10:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
THAT WAS ABOVE YOUR HEAD.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We’re never going to catch the Royals, are we?
by Toxicadam on Aug 5, 2008 10:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
doesn’t look like we’ll lose any ground tonite, so thats something
by c9kay32 on Aug 5, 2008 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Higher draft position for us, then.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Aug 5, 2008 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That looks an awful lot like a DEVIL ray to me.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
EDDIE MOOOOOO
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Basically, when you add it all up, we just suck.
If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.
by gte619n on Aug 5, 2008 10:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And, in a fitting exclamation point on the game, Andy Marte Ks for the final out,
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 5, 2008 10:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This club may be more serious about a top-five draft pick than I anticipated.
I confidently predicted 8-10, and that’s still where the smart money is … but when you actually watch a game …
by Jay on Aug 5, 2008 11:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If that Top-5 draft pick is a stud prospect (like LaPorta or a top-flight pitching prospect, say like a David Price), would that be all bad?
I don’t think so – besides, at this point, does it really matter that much whether we win 75 games, 70 games, or 65 games? I don’t see much difference – we can still play well (especially Shoppach and Peralta, along with some solid ABs by a few others) and still lose, so I don’t know the number of wins is going to really dictate what we do next season.
Just evaluating the players on how they handle the situation now will help Shapiro who should be part of next year’s team and what he needs to acquire in the offseason. Getting back Martinez (and Hafner if he can ever find himself again) will help make this offense more formidable and a little more consistent, based on their previous track records, which is why I don’t see the number of wins really influencing the number of wins we have next year.
After all, adding Victor and Travis can only help (hopefully, in Travis’ case), and the guys who are batting in the middle-of-the-order (Francisco, Garko, Gutz, Choo, etc.) will be down lower in the order where they won’t be expected to do as much. That too can likely only help, so this team will be considerably different from the one you see now, which is again why I don’t think we have to win 70-75 games to ensure we’ll be contending next season.
Besides, if that were the case, we would have contended in 2006 and 2008 and not contended in 2005 and 2007 based on the previous year’s record, and that certainly wasn’t the case, so I wouldn’t worry too much about the record or who we finish behind, even the Royals. Next year will likely be a different year, as the last few years have shown.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Aug 6, 2008 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish we could turn back the clock … to 1908 and make Cliff Lee pitch every third night.
by Toxicadam on Aug 5, 2008 11:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The way it looks tonight, the Indians have crapped out on five position players they were hoping would be big league regulars: Garko, Choo, Gutierrez, Francisco and Marte. That’s pretty amazing. You’d think one or two would have turned out to be league average at least.
by odradek on Aug 5, 2008 11:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m being unfair to Francisco. He has a career OPS+ of 108. For now.
by odradek on Aug 5, 2008 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello Toxicadam,
I’m not sure – I’m guessing because he wasn’t a “sexy” prospect with the greatest tools and that he was a little old for the leagues he was in when coming up through the system, but personally, I think he has shown the most promise of the 5 above, along with Choo. In the bottom part of the order, I think Francisco would be quite solid, and probably as good or better than any player we could reasonably get (i.e. without a major trade or a major contract) to put in the bottom of the order, so really, I don’t know why Francisco is sometimes treated more critically than the others. He was probably the least-regarded of the 5, yet has arguably provided as much or more than the other 4 (in 2008 at least).
Personally, I’m more disappointed in Gutz and Marte, and Garko to a lesser extent (only because I’m not sure whether the eyesight rumor is true or not). Choo has shown promise as well, which is why I can’t really complain about Francisco or Choo and hope they have chances in the bottom part of the order next year. Of course, they need to continue to progress the rest of this season.
As for the other three, especially, they have much work to do if they want to be Indians in 2008 in my opinion.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Aug 6, 2008 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very nice reply. I think Francisco will be a great #6 or 7 hitter for this team next year. It wasn’t our defense that lost us games in 2008 .. it was our (lack of) hitting.
by Toxicadam on Aug 6, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you seen him play the outfield?
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 6, 2008 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Indians scientists are working on a machine to merge the DNA of Francisco and Guiterrez. Stay tuned.
by Toxicadam on Aug 6, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With the Indians’ luck, the resulting outfielder will field like Francisco and hit like Gutierrez.
Free at last! Free at last! Andy Marte is free at last!
by woodsmeister on Aug 6, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Just a slight adjustment is necessary…”
by odradek on Aug 6, 2008 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No offense, but in defense of them:
Garko – had a solid year last year, has faltered this year – which is the real Garko?
Choo – has been mostly been beset by injuries and hasn’t had much playing time. He’s shown some promise at times.
Gutierrez – arguably, the biggest disappointment of all because he was getting the most playing time, but again, like Garko, had a pretty solid year (or half-year, in Gutz’s case), and has faltered this season – which is the real Gutierrez?
Francisco – As you mentioned below, Francisco hasn’t been that bad, and probably, has been the best of the 5. As I’ve also mentioned below, I don’t think anyone expects him to be a #3 hitter; in the bottom part of the order, he’d likely be as good or better than most bottom-of-the-order hitters, so in essence, I think he shows some promise, perhaps more than Gutz and Marte, at least from a consistent offensive perspective.
Marte – He really hasn’t had much chance to show what he can do, but admittedly, he’s probably the 2nd-biggest disappointment only to Gutz (as Gutz has had more playing time); Marte’s falling off after he finally got some consistent time is a bit alarming, though again, Marte hasn’t had the same playing time as some of the other guys, so we can’t totally write him off yet, but we’re not far from it in my opinion.
I can understand labelling them all as busts, but I think both Choo and Francisco have shown some promise in parts of the lineup they really shouldn’t be in (middle-part-of-the-order, such as in the third or fifth spot; they look more like 6-9 hitters to me), so I’m not ready to write them off as “busts” yet. As for Garko, I thought I heard something about his eyesight – don’t know if this is true or not, but if so, get him fitted with contacts, glasses, or LASIK (at least check him out) – he had a solid season in 2007, so I want to see whether 2007, 2008, or somewhere inbetween is the real Garko. Gutz and Marte are the two biggest disappointments on the list for me, but I’d still give them the rest of the season to see if they can show some consistency – otherwise, Gutz is probably a 4th/5th OFer and Marte is likely gone or a late-inning defensive replacement at best.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Aug 6, 2008 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, that response was supposed to be addressed to odradek above.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Aug 6, 2008 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’ve got to stop saying “no offense.” It’s starting to get offensive.
I'll regress to my career numbers if you do too!
by Fire Slider on Aug 6, 2008 6:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He used to say it because he didn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings.
In 2008, it’s a description of the Indians’ batting.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Aug 6, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The road is littered with ball players who had one good season. See Angel Berroa (mysteriously still playing, but only because he’s a shortstop) and Jacob Brumfeld. Garko wasn’t good enough in 2007 to merit much further look. We’ve seen enough. He didn’t have compelling minor league numbers, did he? Same with Gutierrez. Both have played themselves out of starting positions, as far as I can tell. Consider Josh Barfield. At the end of 2006 he was one of the up-and-coming stud players in the NL. He stunk last year, didn’t show much this year, and hurt his hand just when he had a chance to redeem himself. Is anybody calling Barfield a stud infielder now?
I’ll grant you that Choo deserves a bit more of a chance because he has been hurt and is just coming back from a long time off. But otherwise, the “real” Garko, and the “real” Marte and the “real” Gutierrez are what we are seeing. Unfortunately you can’t field a team out of hope and memory. How long do the Indians play these guys to see if they can OPS above .700?
And, sure, Francisco should be hitting in the bottom third of the lineup, but do we want a poor-fielding leftfielder who hits eighth? I know batting order doesn’t matter, but you get my point, I hope.
Regarding Garko’s eyesight, this sounds like wishful thinking. Wouldn’t the Indians have checked this long ago?
by odradek on Aug 6, 2008 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sorry, but I have to exclude Marte from the analysis, because he doesn’t fit the criteria — that’s why he’s such a sticking point.
Between the last 81 games of 2007 and the first 81 games of 2007, Gutierrez got 450 PA. Marte got 219 PA in the last 62 games of 2006 and the first 15 games of 2007 — that’s been his most significant tryout. And Marte, unlike the others, did have compelling minor league numbers, when he wasn’t injured and/or bored of course — but don’t laugh he was non-injured and non-bored for almost all of four solid seasons, and he kicked ass in all four of those seasons. So once again, you’re only sick of Marte because he hasn’t succeeded — not because he’s tried and failed.
I basically agree on Garko and Gutierrez, but I think that Barfield is not quite in the same category. His full-season debut in 2006 was a notch more impressive than Garko’s in 2007, and while Garko was 26 at the time, Barfield was only 23. I see little reason why Barfield can’t eventually find his way back to the general level he showed at age 23 — as Peralta has this season.
Regarding Francisco, I want him to fill a hole cheaply and decently, and we’ve had little better than holes in the corners the last few years. Hell, most seasons, I’d take Crisp back over what we’ve had.
by Jay on Aug 7, 2008 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dammit … that second paragraph should say “the last 81 games of 2007 and the first 81 games of 2008” ...
by Jay on Aug 7, 2008 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I ain’t saying I’m sick of Marte. I’m saying we should acknowledge the possibility that what we see is what we will get. I like Marte a lot. I like the way the ball jumps off his bat, sometimes. I like the way he fields. But objectively, realistically, I would expect you to admit he has not—so far, in limited opportunities—shown much more than occasional flashes of promise. I’m saying that to date he has been a disappointment in his major league at bats (though I didn’t see him bat for the Braves).
I agree with you on Barfield, but I think he’s hanging by a thread. He deserves another shot, but even something as uncontrollable as a broken finger can be reason for a team to write him off. It happens all the time.
by odradek on Aug 7, 2008 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we’re pretty close on this. We may need to write off either guy or both guys, but that’s not the same thing as their having failed.
I “admit” that Marte has performed as you describe, but I just don’t find that surprising or even alarming. I’m genuinely not impatient for him to perform, I’m still waiting for him to have an extended chance to perform.
by Jay on Aug 7, 2008 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, that’s fair. I’m not sure they have failed yet. But let me ask a question. And I’m only commenting on this because I am intrigued by the way we think and how we discern patterns or directions. What if Andy, in 414 at bats, was not hitting .191/.249/.329? What if he came out of the box like Jay Bruce, and was now hitting, say, .275/.340/.495? Would we be urging for patience and say, wait, he hasn’t really shown enough yet? Probably not, because we want to see him succeed. This seems to happen a lot to September call-ups, for obvious reasons, but we can see hopeful and positive trends when they aren’t necessarily there, but because we want them to be there.
I’m not citing this in specific reference to Andy. Just to how we perceive things.
I think there are plenty of players who get off to a hot start and then are essentially grandfathered in on their major-league career, based on a year or 400 PAs of positive performance. And similarly I think there are guys who don’t start strong and are never given a decent or fair chance to succeed.
by odradek on Aug 7, 2008 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will not start by declaring “no offense.”
Here’s what you just wrote: Out of five Indians prospects who have crapped out, all five have crapped out! Apparently some folks need to be reminded, the core of our great 2007 club was guys in their 3rd or 4th full season, and we got significant contributions from rookies and guys in their first full seasons as well.
Funny how Asdrubal doesn’t make the list. Why not? And where is Laffey, and where is Carmona? Highly selective criteria.
Anyway, I reject the idea that these were all can’t-miss prospects, and I reject the idea that any of them have busted.
Garko always was a low-risk, low-ceiling guy. He made it to Triple-A quickly, did as well as could have been hoped last season. He’s having a very bad year, but one bad year does not equal a bust. I’m down on him, but he could well bounce back.
Choo was out for a year and has only had 189 PA since returning, plus another 48 in the minors. He’s hitting just below league average and is a fine defender. Clearly his showing so far warrants patience.
Gutierrez, high risk and high ceiling. He had a chance to be an impact player but was never likely to be a good enough hitter for corner OF — fortunately, he has the defensive chops to compensate somewhat. For him, too, it’s too soon to call him a bust, and he’s a valuable major leaguer right now, just not as a starter.
Francisco was never considered a major prospect, so I don’t see how he can be a bust. He’s playing above replacement level and has a solid chance to be a role player, still a small chance to be a regular for a few years.
Marte … I’m out of words. He got 40 PA before going on the DL last season, 57 PA in the first three months this season. Now he’s playing mostly regularly for a month after essentially a four-month layoff. There is a pervasive sense of disappointment that he hasn’t become a regular, but he bears very little responsibility for that. He’s been injured a little, he’s been given almost no opportunity — even now, he’s been the main 3B for all of 31 days, yet he’s only played in 21 games. He’ll end the season with perhaps a 250 PA audition — still nowhere near enough — hell, Francisco already has more than that.
Back in 2004 and 2005, Shapiro liked to talk about about how you don’t really know what you have in a hitter until you see about 800 PA in the majors. He was mostly talking about Broussard, who seemed to settle in around the 800 PA point but then disappointed after that. Based on 800 PA, it is very premature to be judging any of these guys other than Garko, and even the verdict on him is mixed. We are in a win-now mode — not at the moment, but generally over this 3-5 year period — and can’t be as patient as we were with players like this. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they can’t or won’t make it in the majors in the next year or two — with us, or with someone else.
by Jay on Aug 6, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jay, I’m offended. I figured this was going to get your goat. Actually what I said was, out of five Indians prospects who have crapped out, only four have crapped out (see revision on BF). Cabrera, Laffey and Carmona are not on the list because in my subjective and entirely personal assessment they have shown enough promise to merit further play. They have met expectations, or in the case of AC, have shown some ability to correct earlier disappointments. Subjective and personal, indeed, but not outlandish to suggest that it may have occurred to shrewder baseball minds than mine that Garko or Gutierrez may never reach the levels that were once hoped for.
Nowhere did I suggest any of these guys were can’t-miss prospects (though Marte may have been back in his Richmond days, no doubt unfairly). Here’s how I defined them:
Five position players they were hoping would be big league regulars.
As I said to Indiansfan above, I was hasty and unfair to Choo, who deserves more of a chance because of his injury. And, sure, Marte hasn’t gotten a decent shot. But I bet he’s closer to being released than hitting 20 homeruns. Is that fair? No. But the irrational love for Marte—in which I share, because I want him to succeed—reminds me of Dr. Johnson’s description of a second marriage: the triumph of hope over experience.
How many teams can wait for 800 PAs? You acknowledge that the Indians are in a win-now mode and can’t be as patient as they might wish, but who other than the Royals can afford to give three or four players 800 PAs to determine if they’re any good? And I’m not taking exception with the 800 PA standard, which seems reasonable and prudent. But are you willing to sacrifice 2009 so we can see if Ryan Garko can do more than hit popups to short center? And then we can announce confidently at the end of 2009, well, Ryan just doesn’t seem to have much? What will distinguish the Indians then from the Royals, perennially waiting for all their young talent to mature?
And, sure, most of these guys will be on a ML roster in three years, but will they be league-average, replacement level players? Will they be starters? Will they be fifth outfielders? There are plenty of players who showed promise but didn’t perform well enough in an unfairly small sample and were released or otherwise sunk into oblivion.
by odradek on Aug 6, 2008 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In an effort to appear scientific and objective, I will point out that Garko, Gutierrez and Marte are all at 10 percent PECOTA threshholds. Choo is between 25 percent and 40 percent. I didn’t look up Francisco, Carmona, Cabrera or Laffey.
by odradek on Aug 7, 2008 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding my choice of highly selective criteria, I prefer to call it reasoned inference from available evidence to the best explanation.
by odradek on Aug 7, 2008 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer to call it “naming a bunch of corner position players who have disappointed me.”
by Jay on Aug 7, 2008 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be a long list that would go back to Max Alvis. But all I was trying to say was how unlikely it was that none of these five players—yes, I will go back to include Francisco—has come close to meeting any reasonable expectations.
by odradek on Aug 7, 2008 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two things: first, I’d argue that the five players you listed have all performed about as well as would have been reasonably expected, given their talent and how they have been used. Garko and Francisco haven’t disappointed much, because “major league regulars” was not a reasonable expectation. Choo and Marte haven’t been given a chance. Gutierrez, maybe.
Second, it’s hardly a valid criticism to say that 100% of the players who disappointed you have been disappointments. Go back two or three years, make a list of everyone the club thought had the potential to make a real contribution, figure out whether they have, and then make an evaluation of the club’s player development.
by FredOx on Aug 7, 2008 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But look at the performances of Garko and Gutierrez. You’re doing a bit of legerdemain here. They’re not disappointments because the Indians didn’t expect much from them? Then why didn’t the Indians have a better first baseman on hand? Before this season, if you said Franklin Gutierrez will have an on-base percentage of .262, but we’ll live with it because that’s about what we can reasonably expect, given his talent, people would question your acumen.
Here are some OPS+:
Marte 35
Gutierrez 62
Garko 74
Choo 97
Francisco 105
Small sample size! Injuries! About what we expected!
You want to tell me that ex post facto we knew this was what we’d see from these players but we put them on the field anyways? I know that’s not what you’re saying, but how can you say these numbers are not substandard?
Again, nowhere did I proclaim something casuistic like, A hundred percent of the players who disappointed me have been disappointments. I have already excluded 40 percent of the players who disappointed me from any objective indication of disappointment.
And nowhere have I indicted the Indians’ ability to evaluate player development. I said it is extraordinary to have five players fall on their faces (and I admitted my assessment did not apply to Francisco or Choo).
In any year you have outliers. Players who perform above expectations, under, etc. Lucky teams have good years from three or four players in the same season, like the White Sox in 2005. Unlucky teams have underperformances from three or four players, like the Indians in 2008. This isn’t my personal or arbitrary opinion on the performances of Garko, Gutierrez or Marte. It is a fact,plain and simple.
by odradek on Aug 7, 2008 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
Sweet Baboo
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
