all-time best Indian vote on BBTN

11 months ago JulioBernazard Comment 72 comments 0 recs |

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I voted for Speaker.

by JulioBernazard on Aug 8, 2008 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It’s a tough call between Speaker and Feller, with Lajoie close behind. I went with Speaker too.

by Ryan on Aug 8, 2008 3:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Very true…Speaker’s a good choice, but I went with Feller. Most baseball fans don’t realize how dominating he was, and how big he was at such a young age. He was LeBron way before LeBron.

The Shin-Soo Choo of LGT.

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 8, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just to elaborate…..he pitched in the majors during the summer between his junior and senior years in high school!! That’s ridiculous! And he struck out 17 batters in a game when he was 17 years old. His high school graduation was carried live on NBC radio. If only WW2 hadn’t taken away those years . . . .

The Shin-Soo Choo of LGT.

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 8, 2008 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My grandfather (not an Indians fan so no bias here) insists that Herb Score would have been better than Sandy Koufax had he not been hit with the line drive. Interesting to hear how dominating he was at such a young age

by Roger Dorn on Aug 8, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Poz on Herb Score. I’ve always heard the basic story; how he was dominating as a young pitcher then got hit in the face by a line drive and was never the same after that. But I never realized how great he actually was (245 and 263 strikeouts in his first two seasons, better ERA+ than Dwight Gooden’s fabulous rookie season) and never heard about what really happened after that fateful day.

The Shin-Soo Choo of LGT.

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 8, 2008 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I went with Bob Feller because we have the same first name and I am biased towards pitching

by Roger Dorn on Aug 8, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Didn’t BBTN do this last year as well?

by talonk on Aug 8, 2008 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

if so, LAME.

I’m curious what you guys think of this one:
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/pollingMLB?event_id=3543

The whole thing is just “like sooo” SSS. I mean, Longoria will probably win this poll in 2014.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Aug 8, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, I know they did something with every team last year. Maybe it was best Web Gems of All-time or something like that.

by talonk on Aug 8, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pete Rose won the Reds vote — with more votes than everyone else combined.

This is incredible, considering the Reds arguably had the best player ever at two different positions, plus the greatest hitter nobody ever talks about, Frank Robinson.

by Jay on Aug 8, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree that F Robinson is the most underrated great hitter.

by JulioBernazard on Aug 8, 2008 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stan Musial is the greatest hitter nobody talks about. Posnanski wrote a great piece on Stan the Man recently, which I’d link except I’m getting a 404 on his site.

by SuddenSam on Aug 8, 2008 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it has something to do with a site upgrade he is going through. Plus, he can’t directly update because his site is banned in China. I miss my Posnanski

by DaytonDogg on Aug 9, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’ve heard it said that if Musial played in New York and Dimaggio played in St. Louis, all you’d hear about would be Stan. Dimaggio who?

by odradek on Aug 9, 2008 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Greatest players ever at two positions? Johnny Bench at catcher, and…Dave Concepcion at short? Joe Morgan at second? Ted Kluszewski? George Foster? Heinie Groh? Leo Cardenas?

by odradek on Aug 9, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Morgan, of course.

You won’t find many guys who are flat-out the best hitter in their league for two straight years, while also being good enough at a skill position to win five straight Gold Gloves. For that matter, you won’t find many middle infielders who ever led the league in slugging, but just for good measure, Morgan also led the league in OBP three times.

Morgan also stole 689 bases, which is 11th all time and 67 more than Kenny Lofton. Just to give a frame of reference, the active SB leaders are Pierre (426), Vizquel (384), Damon (350) — that’s the entire list of active major leaguers who have half as many career SB as Morgan, and stealing bases wasn’t even his main gig.

Mind you, I’m not saying Morgan is clear-cut, head-and-shoulders above, dead-obvious greatest ever at his position — nor is Bench for that matter — but he’s clearly in the discussion. Incidentally, here’s how the Hall of Merit crew recently voted on the best 2B ever:

RK  Player               1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 TOTAL
 1. Eddie Collins       17  6  2                                                        515
 2. Rogers Hornsby       6 14  5                                                        501
 3. Joe Morgan           2  5  8 10                                                     474
 4. Nap Lajoie                10 14        1                                            457
 5. Charlie Gehringer               12  9  3  1                                         407
 6. Jackie Robinson               1 11  8  3  1  1                                      405

Morgan narrowly edges out Lajoie for 4th but finishes ahead of Jackie Robinson on all 25 ballots — making him unquestionably the greatest 2B of the past 70 years, better than everyone else who played the position for 30 years before he arrived and 30 years after he departed. Does that towering fact in and of itself not suggest that he might just be the greatest ever?

by Jay on Aug 9, 2008 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No argument here. I had to listen to a lot of people—none of whom had even heard of Charlie Gehringer—tell me that Ryne Sandberg was the greatest 2b ever. But I watched Morgan play at Riverfront in the 1970s, and I agree wholeheartedly with you.

by odradek on Aug 9, 2008 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For readability, here’s the same chart with fewer columns and more rows:

RK  Player               1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 TOTAL
 1. Eddie Collins       17  6  2                             515
 2. Rogers Hornsby       6 14  5                             501
 3. Joe Morgan           2  5  8 10                          474
 4. Nap Lajoie                10 14        1                 457
 5. Charlie Gehringer               12  9  3  1              407
 6. Jackie Robinson               1 11  8  3  1  1           405
 7. Bobby Grich                         5  3  6  5  4  2     344
 8. Rod Carew                           1  7  4  4  3  4  2  329
 9. Ryne Sandberg                       1  2  4  7  2  6  3  313

Post-1940

RK  Player               1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 TOTAL
 3. Joe Morgan           2  5  8 10                          474
 6. Jackie Robinson               1 11  8  3  1  1           405
 7. Bobby Grich                         5  3  6  5  4  2     344
 8. Rod Carew                           1  7  4  4  3  4  2  329
 9. Ryne Sandberg                       1  2  4  7  2  6  3  313

by Jay on Aug 9, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Based on this, at least 20 out of those 25 guys would say Morgan-Ronbinson-Sandberg, and again, all 25 would put Morgan first.

The consensus on ordering Grich, Carew and Sandberg is not as strong, but clearly they’re all behind Robinson, who is clearly behind Morgan.

by Jay on Aug 9, 2008 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Small correction, I was confusing Grich and Sandberg’s votes.

Based on the above tally, at least 22 out of 25 voters put Morgan > Robinson > Sandberg, and it is possible that all 25 ballots had them in that order.

by Jay on Aug 9, 2008 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I forgot about Bobby Grich. Man, he was good.

by odradek on Aug 9, 2008 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You and me and more or less everybody else.

by Jay on Aug 9, 2008 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where’s the love for Grady?

You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person

by jakesinger777 on Aug 8, 2008 3:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

All time? Really? As much as I love Grady, no way he approaches Feller, Speaker, Boudreau, Doby, etc. ... yet. Maybe a few more seasons.

by talonk on Aug 8, 2008 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is the All-Time Indians team, not the 21st Century Indians team.

by Ryan on Aug 8, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought that was pretty clearly not serious..but I guess not clearly enough! I forgot my tags.

You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person

by jakesinger777 on Aug 8, 2008 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LGT should have sarcasm shortcuts, kinda like how FE WEE works.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Aug 8, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Funny, because in my post just now I wrote “forgot my SARC tags”, in between a < and a >, and it ignored it when I posted it.

You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person

by jakesinger777 on Aug 8, 2008 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You should have gone with Omar instead – then everyone would know you were being sarcastic.

by Ryan on Aug 8, 2008 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I went for the delicate balance of sarcasm and sort-of seriousness. CC would have worked for me too.

You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person

by jakesinger777 on Aug 8, 2008 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As with all of these kinds of ridiculous polls, the central issue is what they (or we) mean by “best.” Is it best overall performance over a career (maybe Speaker or Feller)? Most important contributor historically (Doby)? The one who contributed most to us actually winning a World Series (arguably Boudreau)? It’s just all stupid. So, why is it still so appealing to think about?

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Aug 8, 2008 4:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

None of those competing theories would explain a vote for Rose, so obviously there is some other central issue.

by Jay on Aug 8, 2008 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Somebody had a “Face of the Franchise” poll last year. The “face” could be a player, manager, GM, or anyone else. Billy Beane won for Oakland, for example, and Vin Scully for the Dodgers.

You can argue that Rose is the all-time face of the Reds franchise, based on longevity, historic accomplishment, notoriety, and being a hometown kid. But a better player than Morgan, Bench, Robinson, even Larkin?

Also, don’t dismiss the tendency in these polls to vote for Pete just to stick it to Selig. Remember he was elected to the all-century team a few years back and got a bigger ovation in Atlanta than Hank Aaron.

by SuddenSam on Aug 9, 2008 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fans love Rose because he seemed like a regular guy, and he always hustled and played hard. He’s like David Eckstein or Darin Erstad—except he was actually very good. Unfortunately not as great as some fans think.

The Shin-Soo Choo of LGT.

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 9, 2008 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pete would not get as warm of a reception at this point — that All-Century thing was before he admitted that he had bet on baseball.

by Jay on Aug 9, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely. That was the night of the Jim Gray ambush interview. But while Pete was still a somewhat sympathetic character then, he didn’t belong on that team (he beat out Stan Musial, among others), and he’s not the best Reds player of all time, either.

But some people (and probably not just Reds fans) vote for him on these things for various reasons. All polls involving Pete Rose carry a dose of irrationality.

by SuddenSam on Aug 9, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pete is still something of a demigod in Western Hills. He’s a man of the people.

by odradek on Aug 9, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That team was idiotic. Musial, Bonds and Maddux were not on it.

by Jay on Aug 9, 2008 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Foxx and Clemente probably deserve spots, too.

by JulioBernazard on Aug 10, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Foxx is another guy who is always overlooked.

by SuddenSam on Aug 10, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

There was a generally laughable omission of modern pitchers — perhaps due to obsession with the Win stat, which those old-timey pitchers could pile up like crazy. We were in the middle of a golden age of HOF pitchers at that point — Maddux, Clemens, Johnson, Martinez — and none of them were on the team.

The modern pitchers included generally were guys who inspired awe without directly competing on Wins — Ryan with his strikeouts, Koufax with his short-lived but stunning briliance. Maddux, Johnson and Pedro all had peaks of 5-6 years that were absolutely comparable to Koufax.

Without the cultural aspect, I don’t know that there’s a genuine argument for Clemente. Are people really going to argue that you take Clemente over Barry Bonds, Frank Robinson, Rickey Henderson and Carl Yasztremski, plus one of the guys who actually made the team, I guess either Rose or DiMaggio?

by Jay on Aug 10, 2008 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wasn’t this point made earlier this season, when Ozzie Guillen said Clemente was only the third best player from Puerto Rico, behind Pudge and Robbie Alomar? Is Clemente the best Latin player ever, or the first great Latin player? I suspect it’s the latter, though who’s better? Vlad? Manny? Robbie? Pedro?

by odradek on Aug 10, 2008 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are we talking about anyone from Latin America, or anyone of Latin descent?

If it’s descent, it’s A-Rod.

Otherwise, it seems like a much more open question.

by Jay on Aug 10, 2008 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A Rod is American. I think players born outside the U.S.

by odradek on Aug 10, 2008 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Could Manny Ramirez be the best righthanded hitter ever? Probably not as good as Aaron, without looking it up.

But he’s a serious contender for best Latin player ever.

by odradek on Aug 11, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mays was RH.

by JulioBernazard on Aug 11, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A-Rod and Pujols and Manny. Tough to pick.

by DaytonDogg on Aug 11, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pujols, based on the OPS+. Him and Manny are a pretty awesome duo.

by odradek on Aug 11, 2008 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Top 5 RH by OPS+:

1. Rogers Hornsby
2. Albert Pujols
3. Jimmie Foxx
4. Mark McGwire
5. Hank Greenberg

Mays is 8th and Manny 11th.

by FredOx on Aug 11, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Orlando Cepeda?

by odradek on Aug 11, 2008 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That’s who I was thinking of. His career offfensive numbers are comparable to Clemente’s in every way that matter. He hit for less average but more power, so he didn’t get to that nice round number of 3,000 hits. But he hit more homers and got on base just as much, so his career OPS is a tad higher.

by FredOx on Aug 11, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, the Cepeda ref was for you, but it ended up in the wrong place. Orlando was locked up in Eglin Air Force Base, so the character stuff can’t compare to Roberto.

by odradek on Aug 11, 2008 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t hold the weed against him, considering what other players have done, but it is a valid point (and he probably only avoided jail a second time on a more serious charge because the ADA cut him a break for being who he was). Clemente was head and shoulders above most when it came to character, but that wasn’t the original question.

by FredOx on Aug 11, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And Clemente had one of the best arms in history.

by JulioBernazard on Aug 11, 2008 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cepeda did a lot of great things for a lot of people, just like Clemente, he just also smuggled reefer. No biggie.

by Jay on Aug 11, 2008 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

”...just like Clemente, he just also smuggled reefer.

Roberto Clemente was smuggling cannabis, too? Wow, I never knew that.

by odradek on Aug 11, 2008 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was all prepared to continue this, but jokes about Clemente and airplanes aren’t funny.

by FredOx on Aug 12, 2008 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What, too soon?

by Jay on Aug 12, 2008 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s got to be the latter. I’m not even sure Clemente is the best Puerto Rican whose last name starts with C.

by FredOx on Aug 11, 2008 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jackie Robinson’s selection as the top 2B was also culturally influenced. That’s not to say undeserved necessarily, all things considered. I’d say the Hall of Merit people had it about right. You could reshuffle their top five a little, but that was the right quintet, IMO, if a little skewed to the olden times.

As for the great pitchers of the late 90s, they were doing it in an era of explosive offense. Whether or not any of all of them were juicing, the fact remains that a combination of factors (stadiums, strike zone, ball, whatever) was making the 50-homer season routine, while those four pitchers were putting up ERAs like it was 1968.

by SuddenSam on Aug 10, 2008 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’ve decided the real problem with the team is that too many got included. What team has ten outfielders?

Thirteen position players. Start with the starters.

C – Berra and Bench. They got this right. I don’t know and don’t care who’s starting.
1B – Gehrig.
2B, SS – Hornsby and Wagner. I hate to defer to the old-timers, but Wagner evidently was also a great defender, and Hornsby’s hitting binges were absolutely epic.
3B – Schmidt.
OF – Williams, Mays, Ruth. Yes, that means Aaron rides the pine — he only got to be HR king for 30 years because Mays and Williams went off to fight wars. Ruth is non-negotiable.

So I’ve got my nine starters plus a backup catcher and Aaron on the bench. That leaves me with three more bench spots, and I’m giving them to Bonds, Ripken and Morgan. Ripken can back up at SS and 3B — it’s not like Schmidt needs a defensive replacement with his 10 Gold Gloves. Morgan and Bonds were tremendous hitters who also excelled on defense and stole a ton of bases.

No disrespect intended to Musial and Robinson — who would get my next two spots, I think — or Mantle or Banks or anyone else, but I think those are the right 13 guys. If the century ends a few years later, then A-Rod knocks Ripken off the team.

Pitchers are tougher …

by Jay on Aug 10, 2008 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gehrig? Big Ed Delehanty.

by odradek on Aug 10, 2008 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gehrig at baseball, Delahanty at whitewater rafting

by SuddenSam on Aug 10, 2008 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trainspotting, too.

by odradek on Aug 10, 2008 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who does James say as first base in Historical Abstract? Gerhig r Foxx, I don’t remember. In which case I would vote for Foxx because he played in Philly rather than NY.

by odradek on Aug 10, 2008 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can’t remember, but Gehrig was the unanimous pick for top 1B at the HoM.

by Jay on Aug 11, 2008 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Without even looking, I’m sure it’s Gehrig, because there’s no way James had some other argument to overcome the OPS+ gap, 179 to 163.

Okay … I looked, it is Gehrig.

Looking at James’ rankings, here’s where he’d presumably differ with me:

• He has Cobb and Mantle (and Musial and Speaker) ahead of Aaron and Bonds, plus Oscar Charleston. Would he really go with Ruth, Mays, Charleston, Cobb and Mantle? Hard to say.
• He likely would have Josh Gibson starting at catcher, and I can’t argue, with Berra edging out Bench for the backup spot.
• Morgan starts at 2B with Eddie Collins making the bench rather than Hornsby.
• Arky Vaughn probably makes the bench over Ripken.

So he might really name only 7 of the 13 that I named.

by Jay on Aug 12, 2008 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For sentimental reasons, I wish we could put Hank Greenberg at 1B, as he was in the Tribe FO in 1948 and 1954, but even accounting for the war years, he’s probably not good enough.

by FredOx on Aug 11, 2008 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh yeah, I neglected to include “Ended Indians’ starting catcher’s career in meaningless All-Star game” as one of my categories.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Aug 9, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lajoie or Feller. They are apples and oranges, of course. But they each towered over their contemporaries. In the first decade of the 20th Century, only Honus Wagner rivaled Nap as a position player. Feller was in a class by himself, and spent some of his best years in the Pacific.

Lajoie was the 6th Hall of Famer – highest to fall below 75% in the first year, top vote getter the next. He’d be more appreciated today if he had managed to get into the inaugural class.

by SuddenSam on Aug 8, 2008 6:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I can’t see picking anyone other than Feller. Unlike most of the guy guys that ESPN lists, Feller was a career Indian. He was probably the best pitcher of his generation, and maybe the best Righty ever. He pitched a game with 17Ks as a 17 year old. He wasn’t even out of high school by the time he made he first MLB start. Plus, and this has nothing really to do with on the field accomplishments, but he’s the only worthy guy on the list that is still alive. So if it becomes a coin-flip for you between Feller and some ancient dead guy (Lajoie, Speaker) just go with the guy who’s still living. Snubbing the dead guy wouldn’t hurt their feelings. I voted for Feller.

by obobcatu on Aug 9, 2008 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs