Game One Hundred Thirty-Six: Cliff Lee Wins #20

by Ryan on Sep 1, 2008 11:07 PM EDT in Game Recaps Comment 75 comments

Highest WPA		Lowest WPA
Cliff Lee	.349	Franklin Gutierrez	-.023
Shin-Soo Choo	.119	Jamey Carroll	-.016
Ryan Garko	.032	Jhonny Peralta	-.016

Once the Indians scored in the second, Cliff Lee had all he needed. What followed was a pitching clinic; he made the powerful Chicago lineup look like weaklings. Lee's success in this game and all season started with his fastball; he established his fastball location early in the game and used his secondary pitches in an effective supporting role. By the middle innings he was getting weak grounders early in counts by changing up on hitters geared for his fastball. That economy allowed him to get the shutout, clinching his twentieth victory himself.

Cliff Lee is the 56th Indian to win 20 games in a season, but the first 20-game winner since the five-man rotation (meaning fewer starts per season) came into vogue; Gaylord Perry, the last Indian to win 20, started 37 games in 1974. And if the season ended today, he'd have fourth-best* adjusted ERA (ERA+) for a season in team history. The closer you examine Lee's magical season, the better it looks.

*After last night's game, he's now tied for second-best (189 ERA+).

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I’ve been away for a month or so because of the Bar, vacation, work, and no internet. But just wanted to say that I think this Cliff Lee character might be here to stay.

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Sep 1, 2008 11:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If you were that obtuse while taking that bar exam, I hope you enjoyed it because you’ll be taking it again.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Sep 2, 2008 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh, I just thought he was spending all his time drinking.

Pinch-hitting Carroll for Marte at this point in the season is inexcusable. I’ve had it with Wedge. He’s a younger, paler Dusty Baker.

by emd2k3 on Sep 2, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just want to say – I was at the game – and Cliff was awesome

by DaveE on Sep 1, 2008 11:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I was at the game, too. Cliff was dominant, although after the first two batters you wouldn’t have thought so. it was interesting to see how most of his outs were fly-ball outs until the last 2 innings, then he got a lot of groundouts.

Grady really had trouble with the left-handers.

Forgot my “FREE MARTE AGAIN” sign, which I didn’t realize I would need. Wedge disgusts me.

I HATED the Shoppach bunt. Stupid, stupid, stupid. He’s slugging .500+ and rarely hits the ball in the infield.

Most fans have apparently disregarded the simple etiquette of when a pitch is being delivered, you don’t WALK DOWN the aisles to your seat. You wait until after the play.

Does Matt Bean? know anything about baseball? Awful post-game show on WTAM.

by emd2k3 on Sep 2, 2008 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was also at the game. I was in, um, the suites, so I’m a little embarrassed to say I didn’t have the problem with other fans. I assure you all I stayed at the edge of the railing and never went inside. Honestly, Miller High Life guy, I’m one of the fans.

Anyway. I noticed Lee staring a bit at Pierzynski after an at-bat, and A.J. jogging closer to the mound than usual while he headed back to the dugout. I didn’t know there was any exchange until this morning’s paper mentioned it.

I had a very lengthy discussion about Choo before the game, and I’m happy to say he performed wonderfully. Your performance didn’t go unnoticed, BLC.

Oh, and the postgame video congrats from Perry and Feller were a nice touch.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Sep 2, 2008 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely beautiful win...

by Lee. I also loved his exchange with A.J. Pierzynski!

by Deaner on Sep 2, 2008 8:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Damn being without cable because of the move! Oh well, guess I’ll just have to watch the rest of his wins.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Sep 2, 2008 9:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

question: how many of you seriously think we’ll try to buy out lee’s remaining contract years and sign him to a dan haren-like deal this offseason?

4 years/$45 million. would that get it done? or will shapiro wait until the 2009 offseason and try to work something out then, given that cliff’s current deal has a club option (i think!) for like $8 million for 2010.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Sep 2, 2008 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

CC’s gonna sign with the Yanks for something north of $120M for 5 years. Lee, who’s a better pitcher, is gonna sign for more when his time comes. If his agent let’s him sign for anything less than what CC gets, he should be investigated for collusion.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 2, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I contended 1 1/2 years ago that CC is going to get 6/150. I’m sticking with that, although it may be low. I’ve also been the biggest Lee fan around (up until this year, it was called an apologist), and Lee is nowhere near the pitcher of CC. It is not even close considering age and stuff. Here is my quick take on the value of their years. Sasbathia has had 8 years above average, Lee has only 2.

Lee 2008
Sabathia 2007
Sabathia 2008
Sabathia 2006
Lee 2005
Sabathia 2005
Sabathia 2004
Sabathia 2003
Sabathia 2002
Sabathia 2001
Lee 2006
Lee 2004

by oxforddave on Sep 2, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

If they paid for past performances, you’re right. I contend that CC’s skills have a shorter shelf life than Lee’s. Hard throwing lefties often flame out quickly. Lee, on the other hand, has the skill set that lasts much longer. Plus, you tell me who you’d rather have pitching the seventh game of the WS, CC or Lee?

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 2, 2008 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think CC’s skills have a longer life, just from past performance and sheer velocity. Lee’s skills have come and gone. Your opinion may differ.

Finally, no way CC is signing for Zito money (120). 6/150 is the starting point. That is peanuts for the Yankees.

by oxforddave on Sep 2, 2008 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anyone think the Phillies will give it a try? NL team, plus Charlie Manuel (and old pal!).

by peter m on Sep 2, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Back to the WS – who ya gonna pitch in game seven, CC or Lee?

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 2, 2008 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Westbrook.

by peter m on Sep 2, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Probably whoevers turn it was in the rotation

by Roger Dorn on Sep 2, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Won’t matter because the bullpen will blow it anyway.

by odradek on Sep 2, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

CC, every single time. That’s a ridiculous question.

I crave the approval of others.

by fwembt on Sep 2, 2008 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Then clearly you didn’t watch the ALCS last year.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 2, 2008 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You’re right. Base your entire arguement of a sample size of two.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 2, 2008 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

See that’s what’s great about baseball. You screw up a game and you’ve got 161 more games to atone for your mistakes. But in the play-offs a pitcher’s lucky to get a second or third chance. CC will never get a chance to atone for his horrible performance as an Indian in the ‘07 ALCS. For the rest of his career, all we’ll remember about his play-offs is he screwed up.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 3, 2008 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is a trick question, but it shouldn’t be.

Lee, because he’s still an Indian. And the Indians are who you want in game 7 of the World Series.

by Brick. on Sep 2, 2008 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Oops – make that six (6) years and $120M

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 2, 2008 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Chuck’s question of who is better (or alternatively, who would you rather sign to a contract this off-season) is actually an interesting one. Although I definitely find myself on Dave’s side that CC is unquestionably the better pitcher. As to who is better going forward…I think I’d also go with CC but I don’t think there’s an obviously correct answer. The problem with Lee is that we’ve seen what he looks like when he’s a bad pitcher. And he was a bad pitcher with the same basic raw stuff he has now. That would suggest to me that Lee will always be in danger of slipping back, even if he doesn’t suffer an injury or a general deterioration of his stuff. For CC, the problem is obviously the wear and tear of the innings he has pitched at his age. The Indians have certainly been careful with him and to his credit he has had no elbow and shoulder problems in his career. But he’s big. Now does that mean he is durable (like a Livan Hernandez type), or does that mean the wear of his body coming down on his knee in his stride every pitch is going to take its toll and turn him prematurely into what Randy Johnson is now (a man with no cartilage in his knee)? I don’t know the answer to that and I don’t think anyone can, since there has never been a pitcher of CC’s size and skills in baseball history.

by APV on Sep 2, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

except lee’s problems last year were mechanical, and they didn’t really have anything to do with his “stuff”, per se.

lee’s always thrown the same low-nineties fastball, changeup, cutter and curve. the problem, from what i’ve read, was the abdominal injury that seemingly effed up his mechanics and made it hard for him to repeat his delivery. consequently, the work he did in the offseason—strengthening his core and smoothing out his mechanics—is what has allowed him to repeat his delivery consistently and locate his fastball at will.

i don’t think that lee will have another year like this one, obviously. i do think that it’s reasonable to expect his performance from here on out to be somewhere between his ‘05/’06 level and his ’08 level, rather than his ’07 disaster, which i see as an anomaly. hopefully he can stay healthy.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Sep 2, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But in ‘06 and (less so) ’05, Cliff wasn’t actually a great pitcher. 5.8 and 6.3 K/9IP. A 4.73 and 3.79 FIP. ‘05 he was above average, but ’06 was downright mediocre. Hopefully he’s something more than that now.

by APV on Sep 2, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

fair enough. . . i guess when i said ‘05/’06 lee, i was referring to mid-rotation innings eater lee, and when i said 2008 lee, i meant out-of-this-world good cy young winner lee.

i think it’s reasonable to expect that 2009 lee will fall somewhere between those two poles. heh.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Sep 2, 2008 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i really, really, really disagree with that argument.

cliff lee just turned 30 last month, and we have him locked up through his age 31/32 season in 2010. he has a career ERA of 4.15. his career K/9 is 6.90. his career OPS against is .732. his main value up until this year is that he’s been a mid-rotation innings eater who cranks out quality starts.

cc sabathia just turned 28 in july. he has a career ERA of 3.70, a career ERA of 7.52, and a career OPS against of .689. he is reaching free agency as he enters his prime, and right now he is the most dominating pitcher in baseball, bar none (halladay is a close 2nd).

there really is no argument to be made that lee is the better pitcher. sabathia has better stuff, a stronger track record, has been more durable, and is younger. that’s not to take anything away from cliff, who has had a better 2008 than sabathia—i still love lee and think that he’s the shiz and all—but i don’t really see those two as even being on the same level in terms of talent or value.

there is no question. lee is a front line starter, for sure, and the fact that he has straightened himself out mechanically and had great success this year is very encouraging for the future. but if he thinks that he’s going to play out his contract with cleveland and get a CC deal, his agent needs to tell him otherwise. an extension like haren’s would be good for both parties—we’d be getting a guy who is likely to be a legit front-line starter through 2012, while lee would be hedging against the risk of a decline in performance (which will inevitably happen, to a degree) and injury.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Sep 2, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is another one of those wait-and-see deals. I’m a huge Cliff Lee fan – CC not so much – so I come to this with a bias. And you’re right with all the stats – but – but you’re looking in the rearview mirror trying to figure out what’s up ahead. Here’s the short of it: CC’s a power pitcher with limited emotional control – see the ’07 ACLS amongst other examples. Lee’s a smarts pitcher, like Maddux/Sutton/Glavine/Spahn with tremendous self-control. These guys tend to have longer careers, since their physical gifts are not the only source of their dominance. Both Lee and CC are going to have outstanding careers, but I’d rather have ten years of Lee than the next ten years of Sabathia.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 2, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I really wish I could put money against that last statement. I don’t see any way, barring injury, that Lee is more valuable over the next ten years than CC. All the numbers are against you — and it’s not even close — yet you’re basing your entire arguement for Lee on some quality that you think you percieve in each man. People talk about “intanglibles” and other such unquantifiable charachteristics when the numbers disagree with what they’re trying to prove. It’s the same reasoning people use when they try to agrue that Jeter is better than A-Rod, even though A-Rod has superior numbers across the board (including in the postseason, when A-Rod is supposedly not "clutch").

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 2, 2008 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you simply can’t exclude injury. that’s a huge part of something like this.

by Brick. on Sep 2, 2008 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course. But I see no reason to think that Sabathia has a greater chance of injury than Lee. CC has no history of injury to think that it’s a great concern (more than the normal pitcher’s injury chance). I know people have mentioned his weight, but there has been no indication of that being a problem.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 3, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

then just say:

I don’t see any way that Lee is more valuable over the next ten years than CC.

by Brick. on Sep 3, 2008 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just meant that if they’re both healthy, CC is going to be better than Lee. Obviously injuries play a factor, but since neither pitcher has a history of injuries I didn’t think that would matter.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 3, 2008 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly, injuries are the key factors. And Brad sports are all about intangibles. The numbers you site are great at analyzing what happened but are far less useful in predicting what will happen. Can you site me any –any – numbers that would have predicted Lee’s dominance? Or Hafner’s collapse? I can’t.

And then Brad you make the false analogy of comparing Jeter to ARod – that’s retrospective and completely irrelevant to this discussion. We’re talking prospective here – past performance is a component in predicting future performance, but not, as you imply, the end all and be all. A player’s composition is more important in predicting how he will do in the future. And make no mistake, I think that Sabathia is an extraordinary talent. I just am unimpressed with his physiognomy and his emotional make-up. There’s no doubt that he’s a great pitcher, but I like Lee’s future better. I love his anger and how he’s focused that anger into becoming a dominate pitcher. CC’s emotions, on the other hand, tend to leave him vulnerable to over-throwing. Cuz, you know, we’re talking about human beings here.

So you wanna bet? How’s this: I’ll bet you that when the Brewer’s get in the play-offs CC comes apart like a wet paper umbrella. And by that I mean, pitches less than six innings an gives up more than five runs in those innings. How about a beer on that one – BTW, I’ll be in Columbus this October. And here’s another more long term bet: I’ll bet you that Garko OPS’s over 800 next year.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 3, 2008 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, number’s don’t tell us everything — that is the beauty of baseball. If the better team always beat the lesser team, if the better pitcher always struck out the terrible hitter, then it wouldn’t be any fun.

But you can’t discount numbers entirely because of that. The numbers tell you what should happen. It doesn’t alway happen, but it is more likely to happen. You can point to many examples of unexpected things happening and say “see, that’s why you can’t believe the numbers.” But nothing is 100. Sometimes a pitcher who was sent to AAA because of poor performance becomes the best pitcher in the league the following year. Not very often — that scenario would have a less than 1 chance of happening. But if it does happen, that doesn’t mean the numbers lied — it just means that if you played that scenario out a couple hundred times, it probably wouldn’t happen again.

I’m not saying that CC has a 100% chance of being better than Lee the next ten years, I would say closer to 75. But that means there is a 25 chance that Lee is better. And you may be correct — Lee may be better the next ten years. But if you played that scenario out a hundred times, the numbers tell you that CC would be better more often than Lee would.

The problem is that many people (certainly not just you) make assumptions based on small samples. You see CC pitch poorly in two ALCS games and you assume that he has a flaw in his composition. I say that if CC started 100 ALCS games, he would win more of them than he loses. But we only have those two to go by, so we assume that there must have been something that caused CC to perform below expectations. We can’t just say that even great pitchers have a few bad games in a row once in a while.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 3, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I forgot to mention, I will take that bet. I’ll bet that CC goes more than 6 innings and allows less than 5 runs if the Brewers make the playoffs. My email address is in my profile; let me know when you’re in Columbus.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 3, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Man, Ryan/Jay … we gotta start a sidebar to keep track of all these bets chuck is making.

Reminds me of the fantasy baseball guys who bet on everything after the draft and then forget what the bets were at the end of the season.

Of course, I do know chuck does pay off on his, but I’d love to see a running tally kept on the sidebar ;)

by talonk on Sep 3, 2008 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I sure hope Brattain comes out with a follow up article, conceding the Cy to Lee now …. but I doubt he will.

by talonk on Sep 2, 2008 10:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Lee’s now leading Halladay in PRC (128 to 123), but Halladay has thrown 17 more innings. Lee’s probably going to win based on the win-loss record, but Halladay’s been just as valuable a pitcher.

Now bringing up any other candidate beyond Halladay (Matsuzaka?!) is plain silly.

by Ryan on Sep 2, 2008 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You left out the fact that Lee’s leading the league in ERA and ERA+. He’s a natural lock. Halladay’s a distant second.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 2, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think someone else posted that the reason for the difference in innings is that Halladay has had more starts. I believe they’re about dead even in innings per start.

If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.

by gte619n on Sep 2, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, but innings are innings – you can’t just explain them away, The extra innings pitched were the reason Sabathia won the Cy Young over Beckett last year (their rate stats were pretty similar).

Now Lee is leading Halladay in most of the crucial rate stats, so innings may not come into play. But if both pitchers finish the season even in ERA and PRC with Halladay throwing 15 more innings, wouldn’t Halladay be considered the better pitcher?

by Ryan on Sep 2, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The thing is, Halladay’s given up 13 more ER (and 19 more unearned runs) in those 17 innings, which makes them not that much more valuable. If Lee blows up & Halladay maintains his rate, he’ll win it, but at their current stats Lee blows him away.

Despite all of my best intentions, I have not, in fact, grown up to be a debaser.

by zempf on Sep 2, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But you’re not comparing Lee innings with Halladay innings, you’re comparing Zach Jackson innings with Halladay innings. Or bullpen innings with Halladay innings. Someone had to throw those innings Lee didn’t throw.

by Ryan on Sep 2, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I mean, we’re talking 194 IP to 211 IP.. and 8% difference. That’s pretty small when you consider that Cliff’s ERA is 15% lower.

If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.

by gte619n on Sep 2, 2008 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If the Indians knew that Cliff Lee would turn out to be Good Cliff as opposed to 2007 Cliff, then Lee would have thrown the innings Lee turned out not to have thrown, and this would all be a moot point. Swap Lee and Carmona in the rotation, and Cliff would have had three extra starts by the end of May.

by FredOx on Sep 2, 2008 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s true, but even if you say they’re Zach Jackson innings, the 13 ER/17 innings is a 6.88 ERA, and even this year’s shitty version of Rafael Betancourt hasn’t been THAT bad.

Despite all of my best intentions, I have not, in fact, grown up to be a debaser.

by zempf on Sep 2, 2008 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Last year, Sabathia throw 20% more innings. Additionally, he went 7.08 IP/GS while Beckett went 6.6 IP/GS.

If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.

by gte619n on Sep 2, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wait, doesn’t more PRC in less innings mean Lee has been better? It’s a counting stat of sorts, right?

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Sep 2, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They’re all “counting stats” Turk.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 2, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chuck, when you gonna be down in DC again? We gotta get a beer and you need to check out my new digs.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Sep 2, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Turk, I’m going to at least one if not more of the Orioles/Indians games next week. If you’re up for it, I’ll see if I can get you a ticket.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 2, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, he’s been better on a pro rata basis, but the difference in innings pretty much evens it out if you plug in a replacement-level pitcher (in other words, the Indians bullpen) for about 15 innings.

by Ryan on Sep 2, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This whole innings thing is silly unless every other stat is identical. Lets say for a minute that 2 MVP candidates have .270/55/120 in 600 AB and .266/51/105 in 630 AB. You don’t give it to the second guy because he batted more.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Sep 2, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Eh, that’s different. Managers take starting pitchers out of a game when they’re tiring, so a pitcher that can pitch longer in the game without tiring is certainly more valuable. You’d much rather have a great starting pitcher that averages 7 IP/start then one who averages 6 IP/start. The same analogy does not hold with position players.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 2, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was just listening to ESPN radio and Joe Morgan said K-rod has it locked up. He would be “shocked” if anyone else won the Cy Young.

by Toxicadam on Sep 2, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Joe Morgan makes it so hard to support him

by APV on Sep 2, 2008 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Someone should really make a website to get him fired.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 2, 2008 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

K-Rod will finish with around 70 IP, less than 1/3 the probably workload of Cliff Lee. Thigpen’s record is one that everybody understood would be passed eventually. If K-Rod gets the CY, then the BBWA will have really screwed up. Papelbon has been at least as good. I wouldn’t mind seeing the “save” stat banished from baseball—I can’t tell that it has any value in helping us understand the game, which is what stats should accomplish.

by jhon on Sep 2, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It would be nice to replace the save with something which combines games finished and leverage. Maybe.

by APV on Sep 2, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i think they need to rename some of the awards. The Rafael Palmero Gold Glove. The Justin Morneau MVP Award. The Roger Clemens Sportsmanship Award. The Dustin Pedrioa Reason to Wear a Hat Award. The Jose Canseco Silver Slugger.

by Brick. on Sep 2, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs

Classic PEDroia reference.

I think there should be extra credit given to any comment that can simultaneously be genuinely funny AND make fun of PEDroia at the same time.

If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.

by gte619n on Sep 2, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nice one, Evan. IRREGARDLESS!!

If you need me, I'll be senselessly rooting for Sizemore 40/40 for the remainder of 2008.

by gte619n on Sep 2, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Player’s Association says no way. Jerome Holtzman made a lot of money for quite a few players. You’d have a better chance of Roger Clemens fessing up.

by odradek on Sep 2, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

K-Rod isn’t even the best relief pitcher in the American League. Looks at his stats compared to Joe Nathan (courtesy Joe Posnanski):

Innings
K-Rod: 58 1/3
Nathan: 57

Hits
K-Rod: 42
Nathan: 38

Walks
K-Rod: 29
Nathan: 13

Strikeouts
K-Rod: 67
Nathan: 62

Runs allowed (total)
K-Rod: 18
Nathan: 9

Earned runs allowed
K-Rod: 16
Nathan: 7

Blown saves
K-Rod: 5
Nathan: 3

ERA
K-Rod: 2.47
Nathan: 1.11

ERA+
K-Rod: 174
Nathan: 373

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 2, 2008 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh yeah, Nathan too.

ERA+ of 373? Dag

by jhon on Sep 2, 2008 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Papelbon has better stats than K-Rod in every category other than saves, with a 269 ERA+ (which I realize is the point jhon made, but without numbers). Scott Downs has better numbers than K-Rod, as does Mariano Rivera. I’m not even sure K-Rod is the best reliever on his own team.

by FredOx on Sep 3, 2008 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This was mentioned in the Game thread, but I didn’t realize we had almost as many 20 game winners as the vaunted Yankees. From Bref, it looks like they have had 58 such seasons.

Considering we had basically a 50 year window with just 1 20 game winner, that is impressive.

by talonk on Sep 2, 2008 11:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It helps to have been pretty good in an era when 20 game winners were more common. From 1948 to 1956, there were 61. From 2000 to 2008, there have been 31, counting Clifton.

More amazingly, I tried to find a comparable season to Cliff’s in that list, and it’s hard. Spahn was 23-7 with an ERA+ of 188 in 1953, but Lee will end up with more strikeouts and far fewer walks. Harry Breechen was 20-7 with an ERA+ of 182, but the same is true regarding the Ks and BBs. As it currently stands, of the 800 20 game winners since 1901, Lee is #40 in BB/9 IP. Of the 268 in the expansion era, he’s #8.

by FredOx on Sep 2, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I saw something on ESPN last night that puts Cliff at the highest winning percentage in a season with his amount of decisions in MLB history (over Greg Maddux’s 19-2 a while back). That trumps the saves record for me. Obviously more strength for Lee if he leads the MLB in ERA and Wins. I’ll be PO’D if K-rod beats Lee in this (or really any) scenario.

by kuzzy on Sep 2, 2008 6:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs