Shapiro: Wedge's Job Safe
I didn't know it was ever in jeopardy. But I guess after having almost won the WS last season and now struggling this season, despite injuries, today's media environment calls for such a maneuver by Shapiro. I know a few guys here loathe Wedge. And his penchant to play Partay pooper is reprehensible. That said, I still think Wedge complements Shapiro's plan very well and, let's be honest, he is one of the top managers in all of the major leagues. His in game strategy is poor at times. But that is only one component of a manager's job and one we tend, I think, to overemphasize as it's the aspect we see most often. None of us sees how he manages personalities and attitudes.
I vote in favor of Wedge.
over 3 years ago
obobcatu
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I expect a short leash in 2009. If the team falls out of contention…
None of us sees how he manages personalities and attitudes.
We’ve seen a few failures. You could argue that with Bradley and Phillips. And as far as Pronk is concerned, we may never know what happened with that, but there were grumblings and unexplained injuries that still don’t sit right. I hope to be proven wrong but it seems like we’ve avoided certain FA’s precisely because Wedge can’t/won’t manage personalities and attitudes.
by PatBordersHelmet on Sep 12, 2008 4:38 PM EDT reply actions
Raising my standard objection with ever lumping in Phillips with Bradley, or Wedge’s handling of one with the other. Their situations and histories are so different, I doubt anyone would ever compare the two if they weren’t both black. We jettisoned both of them, yes, along with dozens of other players, some significant and some not.
As for the more general personality/attitude tolerance, I think this is an agreed-upon organizing principle between Shapiro and Wedge, and among other officials. So it isn’t that Wedge won’t do it — what would he do, resign? — or can’t do it — would his head explode? — as it is that he reminds Shapiro of the principles they’ve agreed upon — stuff about respect and being a good teammate, etc. — and advocates for one decision or another based on that context. With Phillips, maybe Wedge didn’t see a guy who’s a good teammate, and pointed out that being a good teammate was going to be most of his job that year.
It remains Shapiro’s call how far to take that advocacy, however. I’m confident that being blindly dogmatic is not one of this team’s core principles, but giving the manager a lot of input into personnel is one. Contrast this with the Athletics, where it has been reported that the manager essentially has no input into personnel whatsoever.
I resent the whole point about lumping Brandon and Milton because of their race. They both had big clubhouse personalities that were deemed incompatible with the team direction and have gone on to raise questions as to the Indians’ willingness to deal with egos. The big difference I see between the two is that Milton had actually proven himself at the major league level before parting ways whereas Phillips was coming up in the wake of Bradley’s exit and had yet to hit a lick. Neither have tempered their egos since departing, have had sour words in regards to their time on the Indians (Bradley’s got sour words for a few teams) and have been all-stars despite that. I think I can comfortably draw a pattern connecting them with no relation to skin color. I do not take statements like that lightly and will probably spend time mulling your comment over in my mind this evening as I watch rain delay programming. I hope you do the same.
I agree that Shapiro is a big factor here and clearly influences Wedge with the whole core values philosophy—which clearly has its own merit to a point. It’s great to have a manager with input, but our current hole at second base (assuming Droobs is in the wrong position) if find it difficult not to revisit Wedge’s role in the departure of two of the more talented players to leave primarily for personality and attitude issues. He gets a pass on Bradley because his issues appear to be nearly unmanageable and may have helped lead to the decision to part with Phillips so hastily. There is a precedent here.
by PatBordersHelmet on Sep 12, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Pat, I think you’re making my point for me. Those are only two data points out of how many?. Certainly they are both meaningful examples as Bradley and Phillips are each really good players. But we have only seen Wedge fail to handle two fairly high profile players in his 6 season as tribe manager. Out of the many guys that have come through the clubhouse over the years, I think that is a good enough rate.
I suppose my point was not clearly expressed. That is my fault. What I really meant to convey was not that Wedge is an exceptional juggler of egos, but that we merely do not know enough about that aspect of his managing style. And because of how little we’ll ever know about this part of his managing style, I think it’s just another thing we must place in the trust of Mark Shapiro. It’s very difficult to determine where Shapiro ends and Wedge begins.
It’s very difficult to determine where Shapiro ends and Wedge begins.
I fully agree.
I don’t see any benefit in firing Wedge this year, but if there is no improvement next year I don’t see how you cannot.
by PatBordersHelmet on Sep 12, 2008 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see any benefit in firing Wedge this year, but if there is no improvement next year I don’t see how you cannot.
I still don’t think we agree. My whole position is that there is no way for us to know whether Wedge should or should not be fired. We simply do not know the nature of Shapiro’s and Wedge’s relationship. If Shapiro continues to support and believe in Eric Wedge, then I will too. Perhaps I am placing too much trust in Shapiro, but given his track record and the current position he has put this franchise in I don’t know how we can do anything else but trust Shapiro.
Again, I am not saying we should (or should not) fire (or hire) Eric Wedge. What I am saying is that we have no real idea—because of our lack of knowledge concerning the working relationships of the management team—whether we should retain him or replace him. It’s easy for us to criticize, but we truly only know about half of the story.
I’m sorry to belabor the point.
If I can just agree/expand on this, if you are saying what I think you’re saying:
As long as Shapiro thinks Wedge isn’t causing this team damage, he will be the manager. We are not in the position— from a see-the-process standpoint —to evaluate Wedge the way Shapiro can, and most of us will defer to Shapiro’s thought process when it comes to these things.
I’m of the opinion that a manager does little but stay out of the way and not screw things up. If Shapiro feels the same way, here’s how Wedge loses his job:
1. Makes horrible in-game decisions (in Shapiro’s opinion) that cost the team. Since he still has a job, nothing he has done yet indicates that Shapiro is unhappy.
2. Gets into clubhouse fights that Shapiro determines are a chemistry issue stemming from Wedge. I can’t speak for him, but Wedge doesn’t seem to be a boat-rocker.
3. Makes some kind of racial slur to reporters or in some other way embarrasses the team publicly (the Ozzie Guillen factor).
4. The team’s losing is so sustained and awful that Shapiro purges the coaching staff.
If I had to guess, I’d say only 1 and 4 are possibilities. This is just my opinion but Shapiro is a measured man and for 4 to happen I’d say it would take at least all of 2009. I don’t think this team is that bad. For 1 to happen, Wedge would have to make decisions worse than the kind he already makes. I don’t see any reason that Wedge, Mr. Steely Reserve, would ever decide to rock the boat and go with something crazy and new.
If I had to summarize this whole thing in two sentences:
Wedge will be fired when Shapiro is confident that he has to fire him.
I don’t see any reason Shapiro will feel that way in the near future.
Steel Nick
I thought we were getting close to #2 earlier this year when Betancourt started throwing hissy fits in the showers. So in retrospect, I could guess that Wedge handled it well as it never really escalated from there.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
But we have only seen Wedge fail to handle two fairly high profile players in his 6 season as tribe manager.
Maybe. Who knows what happened with Hafner, Borowski, Victor or Marte?
He seems to have done a good job of promoting peace in the clubhouse and having people ready to play (with a few perhaps unavoidable lapses).
Your resentment is noted.
I can assure you, I had mulled my comment fully before posting it. I hope you continue to mull it.
Here we have two players.
• Player A has already demonstrated the ability play at an MVP-caliber level.
• Player B seems to have the raw talent to be an adequate major leaguer, but his ability to realize that potential is in doubt.
So far, these two players have nothing in common, would you not agree?
• Player B has been mostly stewing in the minors for the better part of two years.
• Player A has been in the majors and in the everyday lineup continuously for two years, aside from a couple DL stints.
Still not much in common.
• Player A is locked into the starting CF job and a spot in the lineup somewhere in the 3-5 range — he is expected to be one of the very best players on the team.
• Player B is competing for a job on the bench, and his ability ever to be a starter, even the worst starter, is in doubt.
Okay … still waiting to see what it is they have in common, other than ethnic background.
• Player B is an infielder who has never had a significant injury.
• Player A is an outfielder who is somewhat injury-prone.
Still waiting.
• Player A had an anger management problem that led him to sometimes criminal behavior.
• Player B was a little immature and self-centered.
Yeah … not really the same thing.
• There were concerns that Player B might not handle a limited bench role well.
• Player A was insubordinate to the point where the manager was willing to resign rather than tolerate him being in the organization any longer.
Again … not remotely the same thing.
Didn’t really finish my point.
I think, given the differences between the two — particularly given the overwhelming difference in their track records as young players and Bradley’s actual criminality which Phillips never approached — given how different they really are, we ALL would do well to ask ourselves if we would EVER think of them in the same moment if they weren’t also connected ethnically.
I never said they were the exact same player. You’ve gone way to far on this one. I do not understand why cannot concede their similarities aside from race. That is your problem, not mine. You honestly believe they have none of the things in common as I stated above? I guess they’re not both all-stars.
by PatBordersHelmet on Sep 13, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
They are not, in fact, both All-Stars — but I don’t even care about that. What they are right now is not relevant; what’s relevant is what they were at the time the Indians were handling or mishandling them. And they were in totally different situations — Bradley really was going to show up on some MVP ballots in 2003 had he not gone down with an injury. He was on pace to be in the top five in average, OBP and OPS, creating 8 runs per game (27 outs) — and he was an above-average defender in CF, too. He was an elite player. We all know what Phillips was at that point.
BP’s personality was only at issue — allegedly because of the limited role he was going to play. If you take BP’s personality and MB’s performance, you have a star player who’s a little more self-involved than you might like, like Robbie Alomar. If, on the other hand, you take MB’s personality and BP’s performance, you have a guy that we would have ditched years earlier — just not worth it for a guy that fringy.
If they were at all similar, then how come everything changes if you switch things around? And the reason is simple: the quality of MB’s performance was on a whole different level from BP, and the quality of BP’s personality was on a whole different level from MB’s. They were not similar at all.
I feel that either you’re vastly overestimating BP’s personality issues or vastly underestimating MB’s personality issues, or both. MB was angry and insubordinate and a good candidate to commit felony assault on the field at some point. BP was just a little bit self-involved. They are so not the same person, not even remotely, and if you made one of them, say, Latino, I’m confident that they would not be getting compared.
honestly, don’t we lump them together because their departures stand out as the two clearest examples of wedge making a personnel decision based upon personality rather than skill?
That’s right. I forgot about the Medina incident. That one didn’t strike me as funny, whereas the Florida cab ride was a hoot.
The traffic stop, I figure there was the possibility he was stopped because he was a black guy driving in a white car (as Young Jeezy puts it) late at night. Also in Medina, right?
I think I’m probably way more sympathetic to Milton than most people. I’m the guy who sort of agrees with Rasheed Wallace’s diatribe about being part of a slave system.
That said, you don’t drive away from a traffic stop. That’s dangerous to everyone involved.
I know, but I can understand—at least in the abstract—being frustrated (enraged, really) at being stopped for the charge of DWB. I’m sure it’s not the first time it happened to him. And it is possible that the policeman was not particularly professional in his encounter.
Not that I want this thread to continue any further, but I graduated High School with that cop and can assure you he is one of the most professional officers in the Cuyahoga Falls Police Department—who are an already notorious PD. I can see why one would assume the CFPD was pulling a DWB stop, but when I heard who the officer was, I quickly disregarded any such notion.
by PatBordersHelmet on Sep 15, 2008 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Back to your point on none of us actually seeing how he manages personalities:
You’ve pointed out two “failures.” If you admit we don’t know what happens in that clubhouse, don’t you have to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that every single player that has seen success in a Tribe uniform—not being a failure —is singlehandedly a credit to his managing style? If we don’t know, you might as well assume that Grady would hit like Jamey Carroll under any other manager. This is a ridiculous overstatement, but why point out TWO players that haven’t meshed with Wedge?
As for Bradley, what manager has worked well with him?
Steel Nick
let’s be honest, he is one of the top managers in all of the major leagues.
Not to be snarky, but how do you know?
by ken from alexandria on Sep 12, 2008 7:29 PM EDT reply actions
Francona, Gardenhire, Scioscia, Acta.
But that’s just me. And I couldn’t begin to justify those preferences, because I don’t know how you evaluate managers. How do you know who the top managers are?
by ken from alexandria on Sep 12, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Dave Trembley, because he never played professional ball at any level. I heard it said last night he was one of only six (?) managers ever who had not played in either the majors or minors.
Failing that, what about Bud Black?
See, I hate this type of logic. I understand that there’s room for comparison shopping, but every time someone says they don’t want Wedge (or any manager for any team) the immediate response is “Who would you rather have?” or “Who would be better?” There’s a place for that, but it shouldn’t be the only response people can have to the statement “I don’t Wedge.” Can I list good managers around the league? Of course. So can just about everyone who reads/posts on this site. Arguments can be made that Manager X is great or Manager Y would be better.
To me the question isn’t who would be better but, rather, is who we have effective. I fall squarely on the side of those who say Wedge is not an effective or successful manager. Does that mean he doesn’t have successes? Of course not. I just simply believe that his faults (greatly) outweigh his benefits. I’d argue that his benefits are taken to the extreme in many cases thus making them faults (ie. player loyalty).
So, Shapiro’s endless patience and commitment to him frustrates me to no end.
Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and also has hopes for Gutz. Free Marte.
I forgot to add, that when looking for a new manager – Shapiro should look to both minor and major league managers. I honestly don’t know our minor league managers that well. So I don’t think I’m necessarily qualified to make a comprehensive list of who could do a better job.
Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and also has hopes for Gutz. Free Marte.
If Shapiro were to fire Wedge in the near future— and I don’t think he will —I’m almost certain he’d go with a no-name. More likely than not one of our own from the minors. Nothing about Shapiro says, “Get me a Torre!”
Steel Nick
"Get me a Torre!"
Would Torey Lovullo count?
by ken from alexandria on Sep 13, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
let’s be honest, he is one of the top managers in all of the major leagues.
obobcatu, why won’t you answer my question about why you think this is so?
by ken from alexandria on Sep 13, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Wedge is the reigning AL manager of the year, and he’s garnered more MOY vote-points than any other AL manager the last four years:
190. Wedge
184. Gardenhire
137. Torre
118. Leyland
105. Guillen
101. Showalter
100. Scioscia
47. Macha
25. Francona
Wedge has had to break in a ton of rookies and deal with a lot of mediocre fill-in players, and yet aside from his rookie season in 2003, when the team was also loaded with rookies, he’s never lost even 85 games (let alone 90 or 100), and he’s won 93+ games two years out of four.
So that would be the “pro” argument.
Thanks, Jay, but I hope obobcatu come up with something better than this.
Don Zimmer and Ozzie Guillen are former managers of the year. Dusty Baker is a three-time winner.
I’m not trying to say that Wedge is a terrible manager. I just want to know what he’s basing his claim on.
by ken from alexandria on Sep 13, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
What is Wedge’s record in 1 run games?
- “oh, oh, I know! I know! Not good?”
There are many ways to evaluate a manager’s performance, as previously discussed. Record in 1 run games is just one. Is Wedgie getting a pass on this one? Outside of last season(I did not pay attention), his record is horrible for sure.
We all know that Wedge falls in love(beard) with those(beard) gritty(beard) gamers(beard). Does he put the best talent on the field to give the team the best chance to win?
Yeah AD but what’s his Pythagorean delta? All over the map you say? Could it have something to do with how his BP is performing in any given year? Inquiring minds wanna know!
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
And who is controlling the BP? Does he manage them well? I’m just asking the questions.
You probably have the answers…
In the end a manager has to manager the players he has. Can he turn Ed Mujica into Mariano Rivera? Probably not. Can he ensure that he’ll have Rafael Betancourt 07 comin’ outta the pen instead of RB ’08? Maybe – I got no clue.
As alluded to ealier, we have no idea as to the inner workings of the team. When I trip over even a little scrap of information – like a comment from a third-rate rookie pitcher’s future ex-girlfriend – it’s not like I got any idea what the hell is going on inside the organization.
In the end our ability to evaluate managers is even more limited than our skill at evaluating players. It’s all about the results – mostly cuz that’s all I can see without much speculation.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
I agree with Chuck, to an extent. You have to deal with what you have, and he hasn’t been dealt a very good hand in the bullpen this year. In other years, e.g., 2005, he did pretty well with the pen because he had enough guys to make his approach work.
But, I do often get annoyed by the fact that we haven’t developed very many younger relief pitchers who could step in and assume important roles. Perez is an exception; Lewis may be getting there. It’s hard to tell whether it’s just that our guys don’t have talent or whether Wedge isn’t good at working them in to the ‘rotation,’ but the contrast to some of the more successful pens in the league is what it is. And, it is strange to see Rincon and Donnelly pitching rather than Meloan or Rundles. He also didn’t use Kobayashi very wisely this year, but that’s the only real case of overuse I can think of (unless you think that’s overuse last year is why Betancourt has had a down year).
That’s right. You have to deal with what you have. But, its HOW you use what you have that makes a difference. Wedge certainly mishandled Kobayashi. Perez should have had more save opps. Borowski had too long of a leash. And why wasn’t Breslow used? Oh yeah, he couldn’t throw a strike when called upon(once every ten days!). I would also like to see what Meloan has got.
Does he put the best talent on the field to give the team the best chance to win?
OK he’s got one guy puttin’ up .214/.262/.316
and anudda guy (beard) puttin’ up .289/.365/.465
Which one of these guys gives the Tribe “the best chance to win”?
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
One guy moves like a gazelle in the field.
and anudda guy moves like a giraffe.
…not a fan of Marte, though. He will never hit with his swing and approach.
Why is Dellucci(beard) still playing? Please don’t tell me it is because they want to increase his trade value. He has already outperformed his expectations.
All right, I’ll bite. Who ya gonna play besides the Looch? Crowe? Snyder? Barry Bonds?
Wedge has the players he has, not the players he wishes he had.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
Would it not benefit the team more to have FranChooTierez rotating regularly in the two corner spots? Maybe the Looch gets a start once or twice a week. In the meantime, he can mentor the younger Indians on how to grow a beard and win favor with the manager. Sorry, I could not resist. Seriously, in this scenario, would it not even be better to “try” someone else and give that spot start to a Rook. …if we are looking to 2009?
One of Wedge’s best attributes in this and in all seasons is how he shepherd’s younger players to success even as they have really terrible performances for long stretches. There can be no reasonable complaint about how he handled Choo, Gutz, Cabrera, or Francisco. He’s gotten incredible contributions from all of these guys and he’s gotten two of them (Gutz and Astro) to go from terrible to back in the picture for next year.
Jay has made this point eloquently before but playing Looch is looking ahead to 2009. If we can (or could’ve) gotten him to put together 100 ABs we could’ve gotten out from under the contract around Aug 31 or during the offseason. Frankly, I can’t get mad at Wedge for the Looch situation; I’m actually surprised he managed to get him out of the OF as much as he did-he’s played only 54 games in the OF and 44 at DH.
In September: Marte 5/17 with 2 BB’s; Dellucci 2/17 with 0 BB’s. Pointless, I know. But, still amusing.
I am pulling for Marte. Maybe, for nothing else other than Wedge’s handling of him. Poor Andy. Don’t get me wrong, the guy couldn’t hit his way outta a wet paper bag. He has a long swing, no bat speed, and steps in the bucket. He really has no chance. Can he make adjustments? – I hope so.
I really think that Marte is a lot better at hitting than you are at analyzing hitting. You also have a long swing, also have no bat speed, also step in the bucket.
Thanks for the attack. Very classy. How would you know what I know about hitting? Based on one comment? That is a SSS if I have ever seen one. I have lurked on this site daily for a solid year. You always seemed more sophisticated. But I guess I was mistaken. If you really wanted to know my credentials for analyzing hitting, I would tell you. Or , maybe you could ask former Indian Brian Anderson, whom I owned to a .700 clip throughout my High School and College career. What was the extent of your career? T-Ball? Pardon me if I seem defensive,
But your comments were uncalled for. I am sure you know that.
Yeah yeah yeah … everyone thinks I’m “sophisticated” until they find themselves on the business end of all that sophistication.
I think my evaluation of you is every bit as solid as your evaluation of Marte — particularly in our common use of totally absolute statements.
I never got a chance to play T-ball, but I bet I could have owned that T almost as much as you owned old Brian Anderson. I congratulate you on your career — I mean that sincerely — but even at the very highest levels, the best players are not necessarily the best scouts — and the average scout is even fatter than the average blogger, as I understand it. My point being, there isn’t too much correlation between playing skill and evaluating skill.
Just like everyone else, you’ll be judged on the merits of what you post here. Sorry if that upsets you, but if your judgment is really that good, you obviously won’t need the benefit of a handicap.
Jay,
I respect your judgements. I agree that there is not much correlation between playing skill and evaluating skill. I must have touched a nerve with you when commenting on Marte. I am aware of Marte’s achievements in the minor leagues at a very young age. I know that he is still relatively young and never been given an extended chance in the major leagues.
But let me ask you this: Do you actually watch the games or just follow via Gameday, Radio, boxscores,
or some other way? I really don’t know. That is why I am asking. Anyway, if you do watch every game like I do, then you must know what I am talking about when I say he has a long swing and steps in the bucket. The centerfield camera angle gives us a view that is similar to a Pitcher’s view of the batter(albeit slightly off center). “Steps in the bucket” simply means that his stride is toward third base when the pitch is delivered (limiting his plate coverage and ability to drive the ball to the opposite field). Not to mention, his back foot often fails to stay planted when he swings (Frank Thomas is one of the few who could get away with this). My point was that with this approach he has no chance to be a good hitter. Can he make adjustments? Time will tell.
I am not a scout (although I did stay at a Holliday Inn last night). These are merely observations that I can see with my own eyes, absolutely. With these observations I formulated an opinion. that’s all it is- my opinion.
I hope Andy is given the opportunity to figure things out.
And next time I post my opinion I hope I am afforded the chance to explain before being attacked. You act like I made a statement like: “Marte sucks- because I said so”.
Of course I watch the games — if you really had read my posts, you would know that. I’ve had both Extra Innings and mlb.tv for most of this season, to make sure I can watch games whenever possible — though, like most Indians fans, I haven’t watched quite as many in the second half as in the first.
I’ll yield to your experience with regard to stepping in the bucket, but my general take is that he hasn’t had time to make in-game adjustments and won’t have time this season. He strikes out a lot but generally makes hard contact when he makes it at all. That generally suggests that he’s a take-and-rake hitter, but he doesn’t rake enough, probably because he doesn’t take enough.
That’s a selectivity issue, but again, nobody — nobody — can improve his selectivity without getting a ton of reps. Marte has had fewer reps than any other hitter in the entire organization, since he’s been stuck on the bench and can’t be sent to the minors, fewer by far than Barfield or Choo, for example, who both spent large stints on the DL.
I think my problem with your comments was that they were absolutist to the point of being smug, and without enough support for that kind of confidence. It’s now more clear that you were talking about how he’s hitting right now, not his ultimate potential. I think Marte is not even hitting that badly right now, although I would agree with you that he still has work to do if he wants to be a solid hitter.
I look at a guy like Carlos Pena, also very highly touted and a similar hitter, who took several years to emerge as a hitter. He struggled in his early 20’s and was merely solid in his mid-20’s. What would have happened had he been buried on the bench at age 24?
Believe me. I try to read everything written on this site. LGT came to me like an addiction but will leave me like like an affliction. I did not realize that I came across so smug- my appologies. I agree wholeheartedly that Andy has not been given a chance to make in game adjustments. Those comments I made were somewhat directed at what I perceice to be Wedge’s mishandling of Andy. Pinch hitting for him every possible opportunity, asking him to bunt so often, sitting him in favor of Jamey Carroll, and so on. Why doesn’t Andy just grow a beard? Seriously though, how can a guy build confidence when his manager does his best to keep him down?
You touched on a very good point – selectivity. Marte needs to learn “his strikezone”. But how can he do that with the limited opportunities he has been given? Ironically, I think you and I agree about Marte. He is young and must be given the plate appearances to figure it out at the major league level. With the increase in playing time of late, he has shown improvement. I never had a chance to watch him when he was dominating at a younger age than his competition. Its quite possible that he had just fallen into some bad habbitsdue to inactivity, i.e. long swing and stepping in the bucket, that could be worked out with repetition.
He showed up on Fear the Sword (the Cavs blog).
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 14, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Outside of last season(I did not pay attention), his record is horrible for sure.
Oh man, you picked a bad year to not pay attention. We were pretty good. We had, like, Cy Young and Gold Glove winners and everything. And we beat the Yankees. I think there’s a DVD.
/sarcasm.
Steel Nick
Yeah, I meant that I did not pay attention to their record in one run games. I certaintly paid attention to the season. And, its dissapointing end.— But, I am not bitter. Consumed by a gnawing hate until I can taste the bile in my mouth, perhaps.
“When teams go through tough times and transition, some don’t utilize the time to get positive work done,” Shapiro said, according to The Plain Dealer. “We have made the most of the situations. We’ve infused a lot of young talent into this team. Eric ensured that we’d get something out of this year.”
Sounds like Shapiro agrees with how Marte has been handled.
And, he’s describing a reality — Choo has been given a shot and done well; Francisco also has had his moments, although I think he’s only okay. Asdrubal came back strong, and they’ve auditioned some of their potential starters for next year.
I think Marte has been handled poorly, whatever you think of him. It’s hard to believe that someone as intelligent as Shapiro would agree that it’s a good idea to let a young player sit for months, then peck away at his confidence by making him bunt and/or pinch-hitting for him in virtually every crucial situation.
In terms of Shapirology, maybe he’s saying Marte is pouting or giving the clubhouse manager a hard time. Maybe Marte is playing dominos when he should be out trying to hit low and away sliders. Otherwise, it’s hard to explain how insensitive they are to Marte, which is uncharacteristic for them.
I brought this up to not only be cheeky, but to think logically about the situation. To all here at LGT (and yes, this includes me), the day to day playing time of Marte could be called anywhere from quizzical (my take) to absurd. So if all of us fans feel this way, and Shapiro is a analytical man, he should feel the same way. But apparently he doesn’t (see quote) or at least not enough to rock the boat. I don’t know what we are missing, but there has to be something.
I’ve come around to a notion first expressed by Jay that perhaps the Indians have reconciled themselves to keeping Marte, as least until Hodges comes along (or someone along those lines). This would mean Marte has a position in 2009, though it will be with Carroll as his consort. The team has decided to play Marte somewhat regularly, using Carroll as training wheels. And, if Marte falls flat on his face, Carroll can carry the spot. This would explain the usage of Marte this past month. Perhaps Wedge—perhaps? damn, it’s obvious—prefers Carroll to Marte, but he is reconciled to having him around next season. Now it’s a matter of making sure Carroll can be a fallback.
I don’t think this is actually the plan. I think it’s the fallback plan, in case Shapiro can’t find “an infielder.”
I don’t think that quote has anything to do with Marte, not sure why you would infer that.
I think he feels that the team hasn’t given up on the season and is still trying to win games.
I think he feels that a bunch of young players have continued to work hard and have taken steps forward. One could argue that includes Marte, but there are at least four better examples.
I think he feels that they’ve been giving a lot of guys chances — younguns and a few vets — and evaluating up a storm.
by Jay on Sep 13, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"Some don’t utilize the time to get positive work done."
This could be read two ways, depending on the subject of the sentence:
(1) Some teams go through tough times and don’t use that time to get positive work done (e.g., the Pirates).
(2) Some players on teams going through rough times don’t use that time positively. If that is directed toward players currently on the roster, I can’t see who else is in the doghouse.
It seems obvious to me that Shapiro is talking about teams, not individuals. With that said, there are some good examples of individuals on this team not taking advantage of opportunities to get positive work done, and I don’t think any of them are Andy Marte.
I agree about Marte. I’m not sure I see many guys out there who aren’t TRYING, but I’d have to say there are plenty of guys who are playing worse than Marte — mostly pitchers: Mujica, Donnelly, Mastny, Jackson, even Carmona, just to name a few.
Barfield had an opportunity that he quite clearly failed to take full advantage of. Whether he was trying or not, I have no idea.
Last year, yes. This year, at the big league level, he got hurt immediately upon recall and then has played only once or twice since returning. I guess you could say he didn’t take advantage of his time in Buffalo, but that’s not what Shapiro was talking about.
The person (among the everyday guys) who REALLY didn’t take advantage of a big league chance was Gutierrez, but he’s played a bit better lately, so he may have earned another shot.
That third point is very true. You can certainly disagree with Wedge’s handling of Marte (I do), but what about the great play of Choo? He has certainly exceeded all of our expectations, and Wedge is giving him opportunities as he has earned them. If we’re going to critcize him for his handling of Marte, we should praise him for his handling of Choo (and Cabrera, Gutz, and probably Francisco).
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 13, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I give him nothing on Francisco. The guy has a hot start for a couple weeks, then piles up another 300 PA with 750-ish OPS and not-particular-plus defense in LF and RF. How many years in a row will Wedge fall for this? Or the fans, for that matter?
The other guys, I do feel he has handled pretty well. I think they should have demoted AbaCab weeks earlier, but I guess that’s nitpicking.
Yeah, I just kind of threw him in there at the end, but like you said he hasn’t done much since his hot start.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 13, 2008 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
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