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could pitch 2 more games on 3 days rests; FOX is lambasting Brewers ownership and management

over 3 years ago Hpim0803_tiny palcal 25 comments 0 recs  | 

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What a shame. Injuries and tight play, compounded by panicky moves seem to be doing them in. I really hope the Mets aren’t the ones who get in instead.

by peter m on Sep 20, 2008 4:19 PM EDT reply actions  

This plan is insane, and C.C. should not be tolerating it.

by Jay on Sep 20, 2008 5:57 PM EDT reply actions  

He gave up three runs to the Reds as I was typing that.

The Brewers were probably going to miss the playoffs before this stunt. Now they deserve to.

by Jay on Sep 20, 2008 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Milwaukee has redefined September panic with their moves this summer.

Maybe they just really wanted the upper hand in the PTBNL dealings!

by macasson on Sep 20, 2008 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

CC’s just choking on a splinter is all.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 20, 2008 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

3 unearned runs, correct?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Sep 21, 2008 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, the loss is OK, just as long as it doesn’t mess with his stats.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Sep 21, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

So downthread you’re discussing a BP book, and up here you’re asking if the runs were “earned” or not?

C.C. started the first two batters with 3-0 counts, eventually gave up a single and a walk.

After the botched bunt play left the bases loaded, he got two outs but then gave up an RBI single — on a 2-0 count — to a pitcher.

Next batter, two swinging strikes, then two balls, then the two-run single. That one was to a 25-year-old rookie shortstop — only his second career RBI — who had 81 K and 22 BB in a full season at Triple-A this year.

I’m not sure why you brought up whether the runs were “unearned,” but C.C. came into the inning with only 77 pitches and pretty clearly did not have his best stuff or control.

by Jay on Sep 21, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hadn’t seen the game. The question wasn’t really a point I was making more than, well, a question.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Sep 21, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, I guess the point I’m making is that it’s not a very good question, sorry to be blunt about it.

If your question is, did he really get jobbed on those runs, or were they his fault? then that’s a different question. The earned/unearned distinction is so imprecise as to be almost worthless, not unlike “wins” actually.

Sometimes a pitcher has to “earn” more than three outs in an inning, it’s a fact of the game. In some of those cases, an actual “error” will have been charged, but in many of them one won’t be. Either way, he’s got to get out of the inning, and one minor mis-play certainly doesn’t excuse a poor performance.

by Jay on Sep 21, 2008 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, no, I understand. I could have just looked it up and I never would have needed to ask it.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Sep 21, 2008 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jay, haven’t studies shown that a 5-man rotation really isn’t necessary because starters did just as well (and were just as healthy) with 3 days of rest as with 4 day? I remember reading that it was mostly the number of pitches per outing, not the amount of rest between outings, that increased a pitcher’s chance of injury. (Of course, the Brewers haven’t been holding down CC’s pitch count.)

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 20, 2008 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

How could there be any studies? Every team has been doing a five-man rotation for a few decades now, and we don’t have the kind of medical or even pitch count data for earlier eras.

Some smart people suspect that a four-man rotation would not be a problem, but few would claim to be sure, and there is no proof. What everyone would agree is that when a pitcher is conditioned to start every fifth day — and when his entire regimen is oriented around that — it’s somewhat risky to break that.

Understand, the gambit here is to get one extra start out of C.C. by starting him on short rest three times. This not only increases risk, it also decreases probable effectiveness. It is a desperate, thoughtless move that is incredibly unlikely to pay off. Today’s loss means, in fact, that it basically has already failed.

by Jay on Sep 20, 2008 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

You might also be interested this piece, which I wrote last year when we beat the Yankees in the ALDS. (You have to scroll ot the end, past Scott’s hilarious Yankees tirade.) Both teams were under significant media and fan pressure to start their #1 guy on short rest instead of their #4 guy. They did, we didn’t. We were right, and in part because of that, we won.

by Jay on Sep 20, 2008 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was the biggest proponent of starting CC in game 4 on three days rest. I was wrong, and Wedge made the right choice. This is one of the biggest reasons I have not been critical of Wedge this year.

by oxforddave on Sep 20, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wedge smarter than Dale Sveum. Woo hoo!

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Sep 21, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, not studies, really, but I know that some people at BP have said that teams should do a 4-man rotation and written articles about it. I think there’s one in my “Baseball Between the Numbers”, but I don’t have that next to me now to check.

Of course, having a 4-man rotation all year is much different than suddenly starting a pitcher on short rest at the end of the season. I realize that. I wasn’t really suggesting that what the Brewers were doing with CC was good, just wondering what you knew about any writings on the use of 4-man rotations and if it at all related to this decision.

Also, i did not think that the Indians should have started CC on short rest during the playoffs last year. So I’m not advocating this move by Milwaukee.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 20, 2008 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is just a simple grasp-of-math thing here.

There are two kinds of risk associated with a short-rest start. One is injury and long-term effectiveness. The other is the pitcher’s effectiveness that day — to me, it’s common sense that there’s a much greater chance the pitcher will simply get hammered that day, not so much because of “rest” as in exertion as because of not having the right feel for his pitches and control. Granted, I may be overly influenced by that Colon start in the 1999 Division Series.

But the point is that there is always risk, and just like a sac-bunt, the best you can hope for is that it’s a marginally good move. But in this case, it’s three starts on short rest — more than triple the risk — just to try to get the marginal benefit that is usually conferred by pushing just one start on short rest. And that is where it’s simply, over-the-top, can’t-believe-these-guys-aren’t-just-spectators stupidity.

I’m talking about amateurism.

by Jay on Sep 20, 2008 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Granted, I may be overly influenced by that Colon start in the 1999 Division Series”

Or Wang in last years ALDS.

by Toxicadam on Sep 24, 2008 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, there was a pretty well-written chapter in Baseball Between the Numbers on the benefits of a working 4-man rotation (they are numerous). The question was, can one work beyond theory? The author seemed to conclude that yes, it should work, for some of the stuff you’ve already cited (innings don’t matter, it’s pitches under stress, etc etc). It was pretty much also a study in Pitcher Abuse Points.

As far as data points go, the most recent sample size the author used was whichever Royals team of the early 2000s used a 4-man rotation for a while. Most of the starters fell apart by the end of the year, but his conclusion was that the breakdown was a result of really high pitch counts and not an abnormal amount of rest.

All in all the author concluded that 4-man rotations would eventually take over because they just made too much sense and he didn’t see the risk. He opined that it would take a while to make the shift. You’d have to see changes from the minor leagues up, but it would be worth it. Just like you, I don’t have the book in front of me or I would quote it. I do remember being impressed with his conclusions and even wrote a Fanpost about it well over a year ago.

I do remember one thing: The author was Keith Woolner, who was then hired by the Indians as Manager of Baseball Research and Analytics. He’s the same guy who invented VORP. Does that mean I think we’re going to see the Tribe pioneer a return to a 4-man rotation in a couple of years? Absolutely not. But if I ever ran into Mark Shapiro I’d probably want to ask if he’d ever consider it.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Sep 21, 2008 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

As an aside, I recall reading over at BP about the White Sox using in effect a near four-man rotation in the past few months by simply skipping the fifth starter as much as possible due to a string of consistently having one off day a week (which is typical for most of the season for most teams) The days of rest remain the same for the starters but you are getting more starts for your top four pitchers than your fifth starter. Of course you have a rusty fifth starter, but a team in theory could pack its AAA team with fifth starter types and simply play the call up/send down game as long as the season schedule provides it.

by hans on Sep 21, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is a pretty common strategy, actually. In fact I outlined a way for the Indians to do this back in May/June by alternating Laffey and Sowers. But you know what often happens, is that the guy you thought was your #5 or #6 — Cliff Lee? Fausto Carmona? — ends up being one of your better pitchers, and your “true #5” doesn’t have options.

by Jay on Sep 21, 2008 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

that makes sense, a guy who is a #5 one year may out perform the guy who was #4 the year before.

by hans on Sep 21, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

And this nugget from the AP:

They’ve lost 15 of 19 in the month, blowing a 5½-game lead in the wild-card race.

by macasson on Sep 20, 2008 8:00 PM EDT reply actions  

That’s disgusting.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Sep 21, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

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