Henderson and Rice voted in

I'm happy, I gather others won't be.

5 months ago mjschaefer Comment 81 comments 0 recs |

Comments

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn’t belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others…

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jan 12, 2009 2:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Today was brought to you by the number 15 and by the letters B and S.

by Let'sPlay2 on Jan 12, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

76.4%. Wow, I didn’t think it would be so close.

by DaytonDogg on Jan 12, 2009 2:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

My question is how many good seasons did he have between 2008 and 2009 to warrant the bump in votes? Curious.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jan 12, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Wouldn’t that be asked of all players who don’t get in on the first couple ballots?

Arguments are made, campaigns waged, and people change their minds.

by mjschaefer on Jan 12, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

and voters get one more year closer to senility.

You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Jan 12, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

and Rice becomes more feared.

by SuddenSam on Jan 12, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think that’s totally accurate. Many voters still give close guys a bump on their last year, for no good reason. I doubt most of those swing voters logically worked out why they were changing their vote.

by afh4 on Jan 12, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think the closer a player gets to 75%, the more the voters who didn’t vote for him will re-examine their rationale for not voting for him. Or maybe they don’t want to be the voter that kept a player out of the Hall.

by Ryan on Jan 12, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It’s the mere 4% jump that interests me. We’ve seen guys in recent years go from the low and mid 60s to induction, and not in their final year. Anyone with an inclination to vote Rice in knew it had to be done this year, and only 4% more did it.

I guess it’s because he has been the topic of heated debate for so long that opinion was pretty much dug in. There were more persuadables, maybe, with the likes of Sutter and Sandberg.

by SuddenSam on Jan 12, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think opposition had hardened. Ten years from now, a Jim Rice will not be able to get in.

by Jay on Jan 12, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

At the very least, it’s a handy response to people who point out that he placed top 5 in MVP voting 6 times, or that he was the “most feared hitter of his era.” If he was ever perceived as being that dominant, it wouldn’t have taken fifteen tries to put him in.

by maledicta on Jan 12, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Really awesome day for Fred Lynn, George Foster, Greg Luzinski, Jack Clark, Darrell Evans, Ken Singleton, Dick Allen, Keith Hernandez, Dwight Evans, Will Clark, Pedro Guerrero, Frank Howard, Reggie Smith, John Olerud, and Albert Belle.

by maledicta on Jan 12, 2009 2:20 PM EST reply actions 4 recs

Don’t forget Ben Francisco. He, too, is the third best outfielder on his team.

by SuddenSam on Jan 12, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

just the ones who played for boston or new york

by Brick. on Jan 12, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hall of Rec.

by Jay on Jan 12, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And I wish I could rec it an extra time just for the Greg Luzinski reference.

by Jay on Jan 12, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You just need a campaign slogan. Parker? Feared. Albert Belle? Very feared. Fred Lynn? Dynamic. Keith Hernandez? Consistent. John Olerud? A throwback.

by jhon on Jan 12, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I will not rec this yet. In 15 years probably, but not right now.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jan 13, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I sure huope Belle gets some love from the Veteran’s committee. Any idea how long he has to wait for the Vets to consider him? Does he have to wait the full 15 years he should have been on the ballot?

by talonk on Jan 13, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I had the same thought. I’d bet he’s eligible, but aren’t elders punishing towards the relatively youthful? It’ll be probably be another 15-20 for Albert.

by jhon on Jan 13, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I think a player has to have been retired at least 20 years. So he’s going to wait a while.

by Ryan on Jan 14, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Morons.

by jhon on Jan 12, 2009 2:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I mean, Rice, fine, but there are maybe 6 – 10 other guys who ought to follow him.

by jhon on Jan 12, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I’ve always been pretty much a "small hall’ guy. But if I had a vote, I might just say, okay, this is the way it is, and next year I’m voting for Dawson, Murphy and Parker. Maybe even Mattingly.

by SuddenSam on Jan 12, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So twenty-some voters didn’t have Rickey Henderson on their ballot. Not that it matters, but it’s still mind-boggling.

by Ryan on Jan 12, 2009 2:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Less mind-boggling than the several hundred that left Raines off

by APV on Jan 12, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly. The fact that Dawson gets so much more support than him is mind-boggling.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 12, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A lot of boggling occurs this time of year.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jan 12, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 12, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey, you can make RAINES with that. You put that in there, right?

by SuddenSam on Jan 12, 2009 8:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

BAINES, too.

by SuddenSam on Jan 12, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I can’t stop thinking about ribs.

Delicious ribs.

Signature to be named later.

by emd2k3 on Jan 13, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Some writers may be focused too much on what was in Raines’ back pocket.

by SuddenSam on Jan 12, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I understand that there are very good arguments for Tim Raines to be in the Hall, but I think it’s more ridiculous that twentysome voters didn’t vote for Rickey than any number of those who didn’t vote in Raines.

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Jan 12, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i think you mean mind-bottling.

by Brick. on Jan 12, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’d like to hear good, solid arguments from 27 people explaining how Rickey was not a hall of famer.

by lenred on Jan 12, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

before this gets ridiculous, let me re-phrase that. “I’d like to hear good, solid arguments from the 27 people that intentionally left Rickey off their ballots explaining how Henderson is not a hall of famer.”

by lenred on Jan 12, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I can’t help you there.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jan 12, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i could see someone thinking he juiced toward the end of his career. i’m not saying i do, or that i would not vote for anyone based on a suspicion, but i could see someone thinking that and i think there are voters holding back votes for those reasons. but if evidence came out that he did, tomorrow, i’d probably wouldn’t have the hardest time buying it…

by Brick. on Jan 12, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What evidence does anybody have that Rickey was juicing? This is terrible speculation. I think people didn’t vote for him because (a) he’s such a jerk and an idiot, and (b) race.

by odradek on Jan 12, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

it’s not even speculation. i’m just tossing ideas out there. he was an old guy in an era that a lot of guys used a lot of stuff.

by Brick. on Jan 12, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I get defensive about Rickey. He’s one of my favorite players.

by odradek on Jan 12, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i loved him when i was a kid. i’m really just thinking outloud. didn’t a late stint in oakland overlap with giambi, mcgwire…? doesn’t matter, just trying to figure out what might have been a cause. the jerk thing is probably the biggest reason…

by Brick. on Jan 12, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would imagine some of them would argue that he is a Hall of Famer, but that he didn’t deserve to go in with 100% of the vote, so they withheld their vote for that purpose. I seem to remember that happening in the past.

by Fundamentals on Jan 12, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This sounds like the HoF voters to me. As good an explanation as we’ll ever here.

Kevin @ Black Shoe Diaries

by Kevin HD on Jan 12, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’ve read similar comments from some of our very own Cleveland sportswriters. Not about Ricky, but saying things like, “He’s a Hall Of Famer. Not a first-ballot kind of guy, but probably second ballot.” It was the sort of stuff that led me to believe that some voters have strata in their minds—he deserves it, but not on the first try.

Explaining HOF voter behavior is beyond me.

by jds16 on Jan 12, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I used to understand that but now the logic just comes to pieces when I think about it.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jan 12, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If someone has to be the first unanimous choice for Cooperstown, you’d have a hard time finding someone more suitable than Henderson. Who are they waiting for, Superman? Superman in a Yankees hat?

by odradek on Jan 12, 2009 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Greg Maddux, hopefully.

by ClarkM on Jan 12, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you there, but he never pitched in NY or Boston. It’s odd how we read about the Most Dominant Pitcher of His Era (Roger Clemens). Maddux, perhaps because he’s lowkey & didn’t strike out a ton of batters, isn’t considered superior to Clemens.

by odradek on Jan 12, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m a huge Maddux fan and can’t stand Clemens. Fact is, though, only one of them pitched in the AL.

by Jay on Jan 12, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Henderson wore a Yankee’s hat, for a little while. I guess that’s just it. Too many hats. It sounds crazy, but what else explains it.

Alex Rodriguez might wind up being unanimous. He’d better be.

by jhon on Jan 12, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Some New York voter will have an “unclutch” abstaination.

by Pronktastic on Jan 13, 2009 1:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Lou Gehrig was the first unanimous choice. I don’t know if the writers are unaware of that, or just don’t count it because it was a special election after he died. But the honor of first unanimous selection has been taken for quite a while.

by maledicta on Jan 12, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Those were completely difference circumstances, though, not really comparable to the normal process IMO.

From JP:

Actually, it’s not exactly true that no player has ever gotten in with 100 percent of the vote. Everyone reports that — including me in this very blog post — but in truth Lou Gehrig went into the Hall of Fame unanimously in 1939, when they held a special election for him. His election was completely separate from the official 1939 election (that year George Sisler, Eddie Collins and Wee Willie Keeler were elected). Strangely, the Hall of Fame does not report much about that special election. In fact, if you look up Gehrig’s voting page at the Hall of Fame Web site, you will only find that he got 51 votes in the first election back in ‘36 (22.6%) while he was still active — no mention at all of 1939. They never do say how many people voted in the special 1939 election. But it was apparently unanimous — no voter was cold-hearted enough to vote against the Iron Horse the year of "Luckiest man on the face of the earth."

BSD

by Kevin HD on Jan 13, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Steinbrenner claimed that Rickey was “a true Yankee”. Considering the depth and breadth of his Yankee career, that would be a good, solid argument for me to leave him off my ballot.

That or the fact that Rickey may not realize that he is retired.

MLB2PDX!!! (someday...)

by The Cactus Leaguer on Jan 13, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Rickey versus the People of New York.

by odradek on Jan 13, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Rice gets in, Voinovich gets out, Watchmen might get delayed… it’s all falling apart here in 2009.

by maledicta on Jan 12, 2009 3:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Jay Bell got votes…really…seriously…

by Let'sPlay2 on Jan 12, 2009 4:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Pedro Gomez gets a vote… really… seriouslly…

by DaytonDogg on Jan 12, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If I were you guys, I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over an undeserving player getting a vote or three

by Roger Dorn on Jan 12, 2009 6:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I just had the thought … this really crystallizes the situation for me … that nobody would ever hire any of these guys to make decisions about baseball players where their own money was at stake.

Given that simple fact, why the HOF hires them is a great question. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you let the GM’s, managers and scouting directors vote instead.

by Jay on Jan 12, 2009 8:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

i’m still coping with the fact that mlb network used ERA+ to put together their Prime 9 pitching seasons.

by Brick. on Jan 12, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

They what?!!?

by Jay on Jan 12, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

they listed it as their main criteria right at the front of the show and didn’t even allude to what made it up until about half way though – like everyone knows what ERA+ was. i was very impressed.

pedro 2000 was #1. walter johnson in 1913, christy mathewson in 08, doc gooden’s second year, bob gibson before they lowered the mound, sandy koufax the year they on the ws, maddux in 95, steve carlton when he won 27, and the last one is escaping me. no – guidry in 78.

by Brick. on Jan 12, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

nice list

by SuddenSam on Jan 12, 2009 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I saw that and f***ing lost my mind.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jan 13, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That’s awesome.

by Ryan on Jan 13, 2009 8:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That is seriously awesome. I really really wish I had that channel. I’m going to start calling Dish Network every day until they add it.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 13, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Considering that DTV is an investor and Dish isn’t, it’s probably a good thing that Dish is a toll-free call.

by FredOx on Jan 13, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This is cool and all, but they totally stole this idea from a spring training program I bought in Winter Haven 3 years ago. I’ll doublecheck this when I get home from work.

by supermarioelia on Jan 13, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Found it. The Official Guide to the 2003 Season that MLB puts out. In this list, they just cite ERA+ for each player, but don’t rank the players based on it. The list:

1. Bob Gibson, 1968, 258 ERA+
2. Walter Johnson, 1913, 258 ERA+
3. Pedro, 2000, 292 ERA+
4. Christy Mathewson, 1905, 230 ERA+
5. Charles Radbourn, 1884, 206 ERA+
6. Dwight Gooden, 1985, 227 ERA+
7. Greg Maddux, 1995, 262 ERA+
8. Grover Cleveland Alexander, 1915, 225 ERA+
9. Ron Guidry, 1978, 208 ERA+
10. Sandy Koufax, 1966, 191 ERA+

Looks to me like the most recent guys are getting some serious disrespect.

by supermarioelia on Jan 13, 2009 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

They didn’t really “steal” the idea if they’re both being put out by MLB.

A little annoying that they completely ignored (on the show) Justin’s rookie season in the Bronx. 1192 ERA+, teh greatest of all timez.

(FWIW, it’s also annoying that Baseball Reference doesn’t recognize who “Justin Chamberlain” is when I search it.)

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jan 13, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

prompting me to look up, for what must be the 50th time, Pedro’s 2000 season. How Boston managed to lose 6 of his starts is baffling.

by APV on Jan 14, 2009 12:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He only won one game in which he gave up more than 2 earned runs (3)

by APV on Jan 14, 2009 12:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He intentionally walked zero batters. The year before he intentionally walked one, Vlad when Vlad was still a monster.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jan 14, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Scott Preistle of the Columbus Dispatch actually used RZR ratings to talk about how bad the Cincy shortstop situation might be this year. I about fell out of my chair.

Signature to be named later.

by emd2k3 on Jan 13, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He had an article about sabermetric stats in the Dispatch some time in the fall. I was shocked as well. It introduced people to stats such as VORP and OPS+. They also had an article about Craig Calceterra, who’s a lawyer living in Columbus who writes the baseball blog Shysterball (which is now part of THT). I emailed Preistle telling him how much I liked the article and I was hoping to see more of those stats in the Dispatch during baseball season, but he didn’t think they would use any of them with any regularity because most people still aren’t familiar with them.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Jan 13, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

boo ya

by Voltaire on Jan 15, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Best part of today? Knowing that the pointless debates about people who don’t belong in the HoF will be out of the news cycle within 24 hours.

The second best? Knowing we don’t have to hear next year about whether Rice will be considered by the vets committee ad nauseum.

Seriously, I’m glad they let him in just so people would f***ing shut up about it.

Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and confident that there's still a lot of Pronk in Hafner. Oh, and for all the love of Cliffy, there's still a Sleepy Kitten inside.

by mjmarble on Jan 13, 2009 1:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs