Braunecker is all, "Extend Lee"
"If they want to discuss it, we're open to the discussion," said Darek Braunecker, Lee's agent. "That ball's in their court, in that regard."
about 1 year ago
Brick.
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“He’s so absolutely dead-set on repeating last year’s performance, and he’s the most driven individual I’ve ever met in my life,” Braunecker said. “The night he was named the Cy Young Award winner, he left my office and went to the gym for two hours. He’s a very routine-oriented and regimented guy anyway, and he’s probably been more obsessed with his routine this winter than ever before.”
by Brick. on Jan 8, 2009 5:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
So, uhh, what happened during all that in between time?
by afh4 on Jan 8, 2009 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His eagerness to do it is the same reason we shouldn’t do it. It’s a significant added risk to the team to extend any pitcher’s contract when you’ve got two full years left under control rather than one year or less. If Lee and his agent are prepared to recognize that risk in terms of dollars, and to recognize the inherent risk in Lee’s extreme-outlier season and health, then that’s one thing.
Mind you, Cliff seems to be healthy, and it’s likely he’ll be a very good pitcher for the next few years. But at this moment, 16 months removed from the trainwreck of 2007, how much am I willing to pay for his 2012 and 2013 seasons? Not a hell of a lot, and if that means I can’t have him in 2011, then so be it.
by Jay on Jan 8, 2009 6:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
100% agree with everything you just said. Besides, I’d rather trade Lee after this season, than give him $14 mil-ish per year.
I think there’s a good chance Lee performs well this year. A good chance he performs well next year. But little to no chance he performs $14 mil good from 2011 beyond.
I consider 2009 to be a Cliff Lee showcase
for next offseason.
by world dictator on Jan 8, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Cliff is good this year, I would support a Westbrookesque extension. You’ve got to get value from within if you can.
by Jay on Jan 8, 2009 7:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mind you, I don’t think he takes a Westbrookesque extension, but you never know. He was fairly difficult to rope into a lockup deal, and I guess I just expect him to be just as difficult to extend. As a pure matter of cost, risk and value, that means we won’t extend him.
by Jay on Jan 8, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But how good is “performing $14 mil good” in 2011 and beyond?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jan 8, 2009 7:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, I actually typed “#4 guy.” Interesting parse.
by Jay on Jan 8, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering who that one guy was that is worth $14 million.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 8, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was like Billy Crystal’s one thing in City Slickers.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jan 9, 2009 9:18 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Of course the prospective trade and free agent market next offseason will have an affect on Lee’s value on the trade market and relative to the Indians.
I guess I’m of the mind that the prospects we could acquire for a good pitcher, with a relatively cheap salary, is usually more valuable than paying $12-$14 mil for the 33, 34, and 35 age years of a pitchers contract.
And if Lee has a good year in 2009, that’s probably what he’s looking at.
by world dictator on Jan 8, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is this the same bunch that was clamoring to extend Hafner when he was in the middle – no not middle, more like the beginning – of a catastrophic slump?
by mauichuck on Jan 8, 2009 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I too suspect Lee is concealing an injury. The front office is probably lying about it too. But to be fair, they might just be stupid.
by world dictator on Jan 9, 2009 1:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can’t you find a cleveland.com thread to dump this in?
by Jay on Jan 9, 2009 1:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your capitalization indicates your religious fervor on this subject.
I know you feel The Truth in your gut, but facts are facts.
by Jay on Jan 9, 2009 2:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And can you dispute my claim that many, in fact a majority of the posters on this site, thought that the Hafner extension was a Great Idea? Personally, I think that extending Lee for 2-3 years at $15m per is a Great Idea. Just like the Hafner signing, time will tell.
by mauichuck on Jan 9, 2009 2:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I can’t, I wouldn’t, and I haven’t disputed that claim, because it’s a fact. I was one of those posters.
I am not in the habit of disputing simple facts, or inventing them.
I doubt Lee would take a two-year extension for $30 million right now. I don’t think a three-year extension is a great idea, but I wouldn’t complain about it. I am more concerned about his sustained health than his performance. There are basically no pitchers that are a good risk for a five-year deal (2 now + 3 extended), and Lee has a more serious injury history than the average pitcher.
Hafner’s main problem is his shoulder injury. He may have a performance problem beyond that, but we have no way of knowing that. Other than his left elbow, which is not a major factor as long as he stays at DH, Hafner didn’t have a significant injury history when he signed his deal, and hitters are far less risky than pitchers as a rule.
Those are all facts.
by Jay on Jan 9, 2009 2:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You left a few other facts. Hafner’s OPS immediately preceding his contract extension:
June .702
July .721
Now plenty of great players have had similar "slumps" but I contend that there was plenty of indications that something wasn’t right with Hafner – including his late 2006 injury. Any of our resident stat-heads coudda pointed this out. Few, if any did. But this is old stuff. What interests me is that emotions tend to blur objective player evaluation. And why not? Fandom is an irrational state to begin with. Why should anyone have an emotional investment in how a particular set of disparate individuals perform simply because they play in the same geographic area that you live in? Pretty irrational.
Which leads me to my point (finally!). On a site that prides itself on its cold-hearted evaluation of players, we – myself included – have our judgment clouded by our fan-boy admiration. Hafner’s a case in point. Hafner’s been the recipient of a great deal of – IMO – unwarranted support, simply because he’s admired. But this too makes some sense, after all he is an admirable bloke. CC’s also received a great deal of support here; again I think that emotions have entered into the equation.
Lee, on the other hand, was the object of derision and ridicule prior to "The Miracle of 2008". Aside from his poor performance in 2007 – obviously a huge factor in any fans evaluation of Lee – is his response to the fans in the stands after he was abruptly relieved. Myself I loved it. Most folks didn’t. He’s not really a warm and cuddly guy like Hafner and CC. I think that there is some emotional carry-over in the current evaluation of Lee. I’ll admit to a certain amount of fan-boy admiration for Cliff. But I think that I can see beyond my admiration. I think that Cliff Lee is gonna be a hell of a pitcher for quite some time. Many here don’t. Even after acknowledging my emotional fondness for Lee, I think I’m right.
by mauichuck on Jan 9, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who is it, exactly, that is still making Lee into some kind of pariah?
I don’t think I’ve seen anyone say anything negative about him since he stopped being terrible.
by afh4 on Jan 9, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I’m missing something here, but I don’t think dredging up your complaints about Hafner is even remotely relevant to a discussion about whether or not we should extend Lee.
Aside from that, I think your post is non responsive to the majority of arguments being made here regarding why we shouldn’t extend Lee.
You might have a point about biases that exist in player evaluation, but that still doesn’t tell me why we should spend $14 mil per year on Lee, which is all I really care about.
And I say all this as someone who shares your appreciation of Lee because he’s not the warm and cuddly guy a lot of baseball fans like.
by world dictator on Jan 9, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good lord. We all like Lee!
Who here doesn’t like Lee? Lee is not some acquired taste that most fans don’t care for; he’s a Cy Young winner who for the most part is portrayed as a “tireless worker.” He’s not a hard to like guy, at all.
I mean, really. Is the point that you liked Lee when he was lousy? Well, great. I thought Matt Lawton was alright as a person. What does that have to do with anything?
Yeah, you get ridiculed when you are terrible and are supposed to be good. That’s how it goes. Hafner is being photoshopped onto the body’s of midgets, currently.
This is more directed at a sentiment then a person but geez what a ridiculous sentiment.
What is a warm and cuddly baseball player? Is that supposed to be directed at Hafner, a guy who, at the height of his popularity, was admired as some kind of mauling monster? Or at Sabathia, a guy so fundamentally flawed that he can’t control his emotions on the mound and admits to it? Is that warm and cuddly?
If anything, I think Hafner and Cliff belong in a category together. Hafner curses, loudly, every time he strikes out. Hafner is a pro wrestling fan. He wears denim shorts all the time.
Or, what, do the rest of us just like David Eckstein?
We all like pretty much all of the Indians. I don’t get Chuck’s insistence on separating us into “pro-sabathia, anti-lee” camps or vice versa. I’m pro-sabathia and pro-lee. I hero-worship both of them whenever they’re good and on the Indians. Know why? Because I’m an Indians fan not because I claim to have some great insight into who they are as men.
by afh4 on Jan 9, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
It’s a prime example of Chuck’s desire to see people through the little stereotypes he has for them. To wit, he thinks Lee is tough and Clevelandy, and people don’t like that because he doesn’t fit into their stereotype. This of course, is because Chuck likes to shove people into a compartment, label them and leave them there. Lee doesn’t read? It’s because he’s a True Man. Hafner gets hurt? He must have been hiding something?
It’s the natural tendency of everyone, Chuck just doesn’t hide it.
by fwembt on Jan 9, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Clifton doesn’t read because he’s dumb.
Signature to be named later.
by emd2k3 on Jan 9, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The other day Andrew made a very cogent argument against a premise I never proposed. That is: CC signed with the Yankees because of some character defect. Andrew opined that none of us know anything about a player’s character, or more precisely, know anything about players as people. I wholeheartedly agree. We see players as cardboard cut-outs and, fwembt is right, we all tend to compartmentalize them into categories. I submit that this is natural and every day.
And fwembt, but give me a little credit for some subtlety. First I applauded Lee’s response to, "what books to you read?" not because he said he didn’t read but because there was no spin or athlete-speak involved. Given 368 possible responses Lee chooses the one that was honest and least flattering to him. But he didn’t give a damn. I love this.
And world dictator here’s the relationship between Hafner and Lee. One, Hafner, I believe has been over valved as a player and the other Lee has been under valued. I think that emotions have contributed to both phenomenons. That’s my point.
And one more: I think that Cliff Lee is going to be an outstanding pitcher for the next 5-7 years, mostly because of his intensity and work ethic. Let’s see.
by mauichuck on Jan 9, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One, Hafner, I believe has been over valved as a player and the other Lee has been under valued. I think that emotions have contributed to both phenomenons.
I don’t think that’s true at all. We love Hafner when he’s Pronk and skewer him otherwise. We weren’t so enamored with lee because he used to suck, and now he’s good. this has little to do with character judgments. If a players’ a good guy but a bad player, maybe he’ll get cut a bit more slack. But around here, if he sucks he sucks. See barfield as an example. Great guy, but he sucks so whatever.
Also, what evidence do you have that Hafner doesn’t work out with the same or greater intensity as Lee. I would think he busts his butt pretty hard.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 9, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But he didn’t give a damn. I love this.
I don’t want to get in a pissing match, but this is exactly what I am talking about. For all you know Cliff was embarrassed by his answer, or gave that one half-heartedly. All he did was answer a question, you read into that some sort of nobility that just isn’t there.
I think that Lee is very valued here. He sucked the year before last, that is why he was unpopular. He was just league average before that. His disaster of 2007 was what made him not a favorite, not his reaction to the fans. It’s your opinion that he will be good for the next 5-7 years, and I respect that. I just don’t see where there is any evidence that Hafner is some half-witted slack who won’t be.
by fwembt on Jan 9, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
From 2004-2006, Hafner was one of the 2 or 3 best hitters in the AL. I don’t see how he was overvalued. Now, he certainly has hit poorly since then. I don’t think a single person here would disagree with that. And we have very little idea of his value now, but it mostly depends on the heath of his shoulder (or whatever else is bothering him). But I don’t think we’re counting on very much from him this year, so I’m not sure where you get the overvaluing part.
I really hate it when fans try to judge a player’s character, because we know next to nothing about that person. We see them play on the field and make a few quotes to the media, and we make judgements based on that. And too often that character assessment is linked to their performance. You’re doing that now with Hafner. You don’t like that the Indians signed him to a big contract and now he’s underperforming, so you’re finding flaws in his character to justify your beliefs. And Lee just had a great season, so you’re finding all these things about him that you like. How do you know he has a great work ethic? You’re just saying that because you like him; you have absolutely no idea if that is true. Maybe Hafner’s work ethic is better than Lee’s?
Also, it’s very unlikely that any pitcher Lee’s age will be outstanding in 6 or 7 years.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 9, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To Chuck’s credit, he says this isn’t about character.
I’m not sure I totally understand his perspective but I have to at least take him at his word.
by afh4 on Jan 9, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He had talked about both Hafner’s and Lee’s character before. His reasons above for loving Lee were because of his intesity and work ethic (I guess I included those traits in ’character’), which he cannot know very much about, if at all. He’s talked before about Lee’s reaction to being booed and response about not reading books as evidence of his character, or whatever you want to call it. It’s non-baseball-playing traits.
Also, here are Hafner’s AL rank in OPS+ for the years 2004-06: 1, 2, 1. I don’t see how he was overvauled — he didn’t even make an All-Star team any of those years, and he was the best hitter in the league!!
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 9, 2009 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
See this all fine and dandy if you want to tell me about what did happen. Yep it’s indisputable that Hafner was a great hitter in 2004, 2005 and 2006. At the time of his signing what I wanted to know was this: what’s he gonna do in 2007, 2008, 2009 and beyond. When Hafner signed the consensus on this site was that Hafner would snap back to his previous form and be worth every nickle of his new contract. I contend that there was enough evidence that this was unlikely, but that was mostly ignored. I assert that fandom was largely responsible. Hafner’s future value – much, much more difficult to determine – was much less than what was generally accepted at LGT.
I think that the reverse is true here with Lee. He’s a much better pitcher he’s given credit for up-thread. I think that in two years $13-14M a year for Lee will look like the best bargain in baseball. We’ll see.
by mauichuck on Jan 9, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s the thing: if a player is one of the 2 best hitters in the AL for three years in a row, then starts the next year with a few bad months (not terrible, just bad by his standards), what would you think is his real value? The three years of greatness, or the few bad months? Most everybody would say the former, including you.
You say there was evidence to think that Hafner was going to continue to hit poorly. I would like to know what that evidence was. The belief here that Hafner would revert back to his previous hitting form in 2007 wasn’t blind fandom, it was based on hard evidence (his hitting the previous three years). Players can have periods of time where they overachieve or underachieve, but they usually revert back to their normal level of performance. For whatever reason, Hafner has not done that, but I’d like to see the evidence that you knew that would happen.
Hafner’s sudden drop in performance was completely unexpected, by Indians fans and baseball analysts alike. It wasn’t blind loyalty.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 9, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, you still haven’t answered how you know that Cliff Lee has a great work ethic. Or, can you just tell because he looks like a “true Clevelander” kind of guy.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 9, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well when the Indians signed Hafner I gave more weight to his previous two months performance than the previous three years. You can look it up along with Hafner’s OPS splits for 2007.
I don’t have any direct knowledge of Lee’s work ethic since I’ve never been in the gym with him or see his off-season work outs. However, when I was working in Pine Bluff Arkansas I worked with a guy who went to high school with Lee and another guy who belonged to his church in Benton. The two things they both commented on were Lee’s monomaniacal devotion to baseball and his "dark side". Everything I’ve read or heard about him since supports these observations.
by mauichuck on Jan 9, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
CAVS! They blew your Celts outta da gym. LeBron was everywhere.
Happy New Year.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 10, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that was supposed to be to Chuck.
by JulioBernazard on Jan 10, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, I’m up for a healthy serving of crow.
Man if this keeps up and LeGavone actually wins a championship in Cleveland we may never get rid of that strutz. I find this very depressing.
by mauichuck on Jan 10, 2009 1:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still can’t figure if you are true Cavs fan, or more of LeBron hater …. but oh well …. if the Cavs keep playing like they have, they have an excellent chance at winning a title this season.
then wouldn’t be even sweeter if the Tribe finishes off 2009 with a title as well?
too bad I don’t think the Browns can finish off the trifecta next season.
The Buckeyes, meh, well have an outside chance next year, but I fear missing Beanie will prove too much.
And yes … I’ve been drinking tonite, otherwise I wouldn’t be posting predictions such as this.
by talonk on Jan 10, 2009 1:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You make good arguments Chuck and I applaud your consistency of beliefs – but I just can’t see the Tribe extending a pitcher when his value is at it height. I fully understand giving Travis the extension after his multiple continuous seasons of performance. But Lee hasn’t had the consistency year in and year out to warrant the risk and investment.
Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and confident that there's still a lot of Pronk in Hafner. Oh, and for all the love of Cliffy, there's still a Sleepy Kitten inside.
by mjmarble on Jan 10, 2009 1:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Extending Hafner in 2007, two bad months included, was still a better move than extending Lee’s contract would be right now.
by world dictator on Jan 10, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that’s what I don’t get. Hafner had three great seasons, then two bad months, and somehow the Indians (and all us fans) were supposed to ignore those three previous years. Chuck keeps saying that there were signs Hafner was done, but he hasn’t said what those signs were.
Lee, on the other hand, was average for a few years, terrible for one year, and then great for one year, and now he deserves a big extension? Why — because you think you know things about his character/work ethic?
Chuck, it wasn’t blind fandom that made us support Hafner, it was those three great hitting years. Those years showed Hafner’s true abilities as a hitter. That’s why I quoted his stats above. Three years is a much larger sample than two months. I think it’s blind fandom that Chuck is supporting Lee right now. Lee doesn’t have anywhere near the level of production that Hafner had when the Indians signed him to an extension.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 10, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I also should point out that this comparision between Hafner and Lee is completely silly. The real comparision should be
(value of Lee’s 33,34,35 year seasons) vs (value of prospects we can get for Lee)
by world dictator on Jan 10, 2009 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hafner’s extension will go down as the worst deal in Indians history and yeah, I remember the first Colavito trade.
by mauichuck on Jan 10, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When Hafner signed the consensus on this site was that Hafner would snap back to his previous form and be worth every nickle of his new contract. I contend that there was enough evidence that this was unlikely, but that was mostly ignored.
I keep asking you and you haven’t answered me: what was this evidence? And a 2-month slump doesn’t count as “evidence” after 3 years of raking.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 10, 2009 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wayne Garland?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jan 11, 2009 2:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, that was supposed to be a reply to Chuck’s “worst deal in Indians history” post.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jan 11, 2009 2:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s the number one competitor for the title. My money’s still on the Hafner deal, but that could turn around.
by mauichuck on Jan 11, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
surprisingly, i like andrew when he’s both sober and drunk. for most people i can onlt stand them one way or the other. but when andrew is sober, he’s sharp and funny and when he’s drunk he throws hats while being sharp and funny.
by Brick. on Jan 9, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I threw that hat a lot. Man, what a fun game.
by afh4 on Jan 9, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
THIS
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 9, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I never disliked lee because he wasn’t “warm and cuddly.” I disliked him because he sucked.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 9, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I want to challenge this. We all think we act purely rationally, but there is an emotional component to this. A lot of people, including me, were appalled by Lee’s behavior with tipping his hat to the crowd, etc.
Fausto sucked as a closer, and most of us gave him a break. Everyone likes Asdrubal, so when he boots a grounder, we forgive him. When Jhonny does it, less so.
There are subconscious aspects to these things. I’m not calling out Turk, because everyone works this way. We like to believe we’re being totally objective, but we’re not.
I have to agree with Chuck: personality plays a part in everybody’s judgment of players.
by odradek on Jan 9, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt. But I don’t think liking Lee is really all that dark or hard or whatever; this is not Ron Artest. This isn’t even Albert Belle.
Nor do I think that the players being juxtaposed are “warm and cuddly.” Those words are pejorative and I don’t even know what they would mean on a baseball field.
by afh4 on Jan 9, 2009 11:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s what Lee and Belle have in common. Neither let anybody “inside”. Aside from knowing that Lee likes to kill wild animals with high-powered weapons, what do we know about Cliff? Does he like wrestling? Does he have a cool nickname? Does he do a little fist pump when he ends the game with a K? What’s his favorite color? No, Cliff’s a dark dude no doubt about it. He’s not lovable. And you’ll never hear about the anguish he and his wife went through when their son was battling leukemia. There’s no greater stress on family, short of the boy dying. There are lots of "human interest" stories revolving around Cliff Lee. But you’ll never hear them. That’s because, like Belle, he only lets you see the baseball player, not the human being. I respect this more than his Cy Young Award.
by mauichuck on Jan 9, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Except for that wiffle ball game and the commercials he did for the leukemia fund (or a related charity, I can’t remember).
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 10, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cliff Lee is a dark dude. Let’s give him a contract extension.
Big f’n whoop.
I have yet to see you make one baseball related argument for why we should extend Cliff Lee.
by world dictator on Jan 10, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, Cliff’s a dark dude no doubt about it. He’s not lovable.
I’m sorry, but this is completely self-serving garbage. Cliff Lee is a co-chair for the Light the Night Walk. He did the Wiffle Ball thing. We may not know his favorite color, but we know his stance on stem cell research. This whole Cliff Lee as the hated hero thing based on a story that someone three times removed told you, is verging on the absurd.
Cliff Lee is one of the most admirable people on this team. You can read literally hundreds of stories about he, Kristin and Jaxon’s battle with leukemia all over the internet. (A really good one here from Castrovince). No, there is nothing “dark” about Clifton Lee. He’s a very dedicated, very strong-willed pitched for our favorite team. Any aspersions cast his way were based nearly completely on our frustration at his not being his league average self.
Again, I respect your opinion here on Cliff, but it’s going too far to make him out as some sort of conflicted Dark Knight Batman type of unhero. He’s just a normal dude with a fantastic left arm. If you want to talk about extension value, that’s one thing, but don’t turn this into something it absolutely isn’t.
by fwembt on Jan 10, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, then see if you can find a thread like this about Hafner where one of our most respected posters says, “I’d like to punch him in the face.” and then gets a bunch of Hosannas from the Amen Corner.
by mauichuck on Jan 10, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yikes me
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 11, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Angie: Cliff Lee? Throwing strikes? Are you mad?
Erik: I’m more interested in seeing if Lee will throw his curveball this year. It "felt" like he went weeks without throwing it last year.
Jay: I’m more interested in punching him in the face. I’m not proud of it, but that’s just the way I feel about it.
Erik: Yeah, I see your point, that would be very satisfying.
Um … Chuck? Where are all those "Hosannas from the Amen Corner" you mentioned? They don’t seem to be there. Have you gone off your anti-drama-queen meds again?
I’ll tell you one big difference between Hafner and Lee. Hafner was arguably the single best hitter in the world over a three-year stretch, while so far Lee has never had two good seasons in a row.
by Jay on Jan 10, 2009 10:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where’s the link to that conversation Jay? If you going to tangle with Chuck, you better cite your work.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jan 12, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oops, my bad, I see that now. Horrible example of an Amen corner Chuck.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jan 13, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone remember the Cliff Lee Wants to be a Starter thread from 13 months ago?
“…I won’t mind if we keep him, though. A big bounce-back year from him wouldn’t surprise me a bit. Maybe his horrendous performance and demotion were enough to show him that he doesn’t know better than his coaches. Does this multimillionaire care enough about being a good pitcher to start listening? Lee will answer that question next season.” – Jay
“I like what he’s saying here. He wants to be a starter. That’s good. I want him to be a starter. I dunno, I think Cliff’s a pretty tough SOB. I like him.” – quoting myself
“I loved the tip of the cap. It always played as self-deprecating to me. That said, he really needs to pick it up if he wants to be here in the summer.” – fwembt
by jhon on Jan 10, 2009 11:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s not at all an argument to the point I made.
by fwembt on Jan 11, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry you found the link non-responsive. I think that your point is that Cliff Lee’s does some good things for the community – can’t argue with that. And I’m sure that the local beat writers are scrambling to write something about our latest Cy Young Award winner, so I imagine that between the Indians publicity department and the PD sports columnists, such as they are, we’re gonna hear more of the same.
But – but then after re-reading "Cliff Lee Wants to Be a Starter" thread I was struck by this quote from Jay,
Stories of Lee not responding to coaching, and generally being a dick, have been reported off an on for his entire career, and last season in particular.
Doesn’t sound like a very nice guy to me. Then you’ve got the fight with Martinez – damn, almost forgot about that. I think this again points to his unlovableness. You think that Lee was unaware that he was alienating the most popular guy on the team? I don’t. I think that if you piss Cliff Lee off, you and him are gonna fight – and he doesn’t care is it’s Victor, Willis, Wedge, or Dolan – and I don’t think it takes much to piss Mr. Lee off.
Nope I stand by my statement – Cliff Lee is a dark dude.
by mauichuck on Jan 11, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, so you’re trying to prove two things here:
1. Cliff Lee is a dick
2. For some reason, we should like him more because he’s a dick
Wha?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 11, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, what I’m saying is you can’t see past his dickishness to see his talent. You don’t hafta like him. in fact he, unlike most players, doesn’t give a crap if you like him or not. He doesn’t wanna be your hero, he just wants – intensely – to be the best pitcher in baseball.
by mauichuck on Jan 11, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Chuck, I don’t think anybody is denying his talent. I mean, you’d have to be an idiot to deny his talent at this point.
My own dislike for Cliff at the time was in fact predicated on the belief that he had a lot of talent. If he isn’t talented, then it doesn’t matter much whether he listens to coaches or clashes with teammates.
Lee was scouted as a future All-Star when we traded for him, and — just like my stubbornness with regard to Marte — I tend to take those assessments seriously. It’s frustrating to see a guy fall short of his potential once he’s already made it to the majors, and so we look for blame. In Marte’s case, lack of opportunity and failure to seize what scraps he got. But Lee certainly had not lacked for opportunity.
You see something you like in Lee’s darkly rebellious moments, and I definitely see some appeal in that, too. (Makes me wonder why you like that pointy-headed Stanford grad so much.) But where I draw the line is where that “charming” quality seems to be preventing him from succeeding as a player.
So let’s agree he always had plenty of talent, and we both always thought so. Let’s also agree that we can both appreciate a guy with some mental toughness and even a junkyard dog mentality. But let’s finally agree that if he isn’t making those personality traits work for him as a big-league pitcher, then those traits become a whole lot less charming.
by Jay on Jan 11, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We’re in violent agreement on these three points, Cliff Lee is:
· Talented
· Mentally tough
· Determined
Here’s one other thing I believe about Cliff Lee. When he signs with the Yankees in two or three years – and you know that he will – you won’t get the same jackass quotes from Lee you got from Thome and Sabathia. Lee’ll probably tell you it’s none of your goddam business why he signed with New York – or words to that effect. The Yankees PR machine will furiously try to spin that – but that’s what he’ll say.
I am in awe of Lee’s ability to focus his anger. I find this very, very impressive. So, in the end I guess my real point is this: don’t underestimate Cliff Lee.
by mauichuck on Jan 11, 2009 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also!
This
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 11, 2009 8:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There have been literally hundreds of players in the history of sports that have acted like they don’t care what other people think. 99% of the time, they’re putting up a front for their insecurities about sucking.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 11, 2009 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So what do you think of other “dark dudes” like Milton Bradley, Brandon Phillips and any other number of people who ignore coaching and start fights? There’s nothing special about Cliff Lee’s particular brand of reaction, it’s common to immensely talented people who are struggling either in life or in their chosen trade, that’s it.
He is not, repeat, is not some sort of anti-social anti-hero that you paint him to be. He’s a dick when things go badly and he’s a class act when they go well, just like 99% of the world’s population.
Either way, this argument is going nowhere. I am sure we can agree that Lee was fantastic last year and we would all be thrilled if he is again this year.
by fwembt on Jan 11, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s true. I’ve actually talked to him for a couple hours and he didn’t seem all that dark. Of course, he didn’t tell me what he was reading either.
by fwembt on Jan 13, 2009 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree and I don’t even recall what my initial reaction was to the incident, but that’s not usually the kind of thing that gets to me. I never liked Lee because, until 2008, he was at best a middling middle-of-the-rotation pitcher. I mean I guess character does have something to do with it, but only slightly. Belle was a terrible person but a great player, so I always like him. I guess it “feels” better to like a player when he’s both good and perceived as having good character traits.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 10, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re really serious about this nickname. It’s better than De Ro, that’s for sure.
by odradek on Jan 11, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sorry, I hate this. Nothing personal so much as the fact that it gets in my head for an entire day anytime I read it.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 11, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d flag this but it just goes right back to the offender.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jan 13, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, not only the offender. Ryan sees my flags and I see his. Sometimes it takes hours for me to go through all of Ryan’s flagged comments and note which ones will require us to have “a little talk.” The guy is such a loose cannon.
by Jay on Jan 14, 2009 1:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And we’d be buying high. Extremely high.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 8, 2009 10:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thsi is y shapiro sucks he should have known lee was so good to get him the extension after 2007 for like no money so we could keep instead of trade him like we trade all good players SIGN MANNY RAMIREZ
by danvail on Jan 9, 2009 7:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
SIGN OMAR AS PLAYER/MANAGER
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Jan 9, 2009 8:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure you mean “should of known”
by Logodaedalus on Jan 9, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
yep. Extending him now would be like extending Romeo Crennel after the 2007 season… whoops.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 9, 2009 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But doesn’t someone have to pay the Phifer?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jan 8, 2009 6:31 PM EST reply actions 8 recs
Who thinks of this when they read this thread?
by NickFantana on Jan 9, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Law professors.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jan 9, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that there is very little incentive to extend Lee now. That said, should Lee come close to replicating his 2008 season this year, I think he basically prices himself out of Cleveland after 2010.
by APV on Jan 9, 2009 10:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
that’s what it boils down to. his agent is saying “now’s your chance”. you may not want to if you think he’s at his peak value now, but if he repeats in 09 you’ll wish you “bought low” before the season.
by Brick. on Jan 9, 2009 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
HHE’LL GO 2 NEW YORK LIKE LEBROWN I HEAR DA YANKEES ARE CLEARING CAP SPAYCE!!1
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 9, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I once drove a Chrysler LeBrown.
For a few days.
Signature to be named later.
by emd2k3 on Jan 9, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you sell it to a new Yorker with more cap space than you?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 9, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well he had a really small head, so I guess yeah, in a manner of speaking…
by Logodaedalus on Jan 9, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Any pitcher older than 28 and a Cy Young winner needs to be a trading chip in his FA season. If we want to remain a consistent competitor in our division, you need to maximize the value of your players and flip them for new ones. That’s just the reality of our position in the MLB.
by Toxicadam on Jan 9, 2009 3:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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