Some players sent down told Lovullo they had lost confidence after being yanked in and out of the...

Some players sent down told Lovullo they had lost confidence after being yanked in and out of the lineup or moved from position to position.

"I like to get a lineup and try not to change it," Lovullo said. "I'm big on team chemistry. I want players to know I have their back, that they can play relaxed and comfortable. ... But I expect an effort every day. This team can look different, act different and play different."

AP. Wonder what players Lovullo could be talking about?

3 months ago afh4 60 comments 0 recs |

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The dirt is starting to come out!

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 24, 2009 1:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The other choice nugget:

“The biggest challenge to an AL manager is knowing how to run a bullpen,” Lovullo said. “You try and put guys in a role in which they are comfortable.”

Lovullo thinks he can get the team to start better than the 11-21 record it had by mid-May.

“The last few days of spring training, you have to change the mindset and prepare as if it is already opening day,” Lovullo said. “I’d like to take the team on a three-day trip, like we were going on the road.”

Gee, if he knew how to manage a bullpen and get the team ready for a decent start, why didn’t he mention something before now?

by Jay on Oct 24, 2009 1:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

maybe he did but Wedge did not want to hear it.

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Oct 24, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, its not known if he is in the place to mention something now is it? A AAA manager telling a ML manager what to do to prepare for the season….yeah, I don’t see that happening that much.

by hans on Oct 24, 2009 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Generally, no.

However, the Indians make a point of emphasizing what an open culture they have, where anyone (at least within the baseball operations group) is free to make suggestions about any other part of the system. If that’s true, then Lovullo should have been free to speak openly about how the team could prepare to start the season better, which was already openly a topic of concern and even study by the front office a year ago. They admitted they were looking at it to see if they could find a real problem.

So here’s a guy in the organization who says he knows how to fix it … and we already knew it was a problem a year ago … and he was in the organization a year ago … and they claim they’re open to ideas from everyone … and this guy was hardly a nobody without credibility at that point … you see what I’m getting at?

by Jay on Oct 24, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Lovullo decided not to say anything, he probably made the right decision. As Shapiro’s “firing the manager is a cop-out” comment this season indicated, he was pretty well tied to Wedge until the bitter end.

Something tells me that Lovullo knew that there was a time and place to criticize Wedge without hurting his own reputation in the organization, and while Wedge was still manager was not the time.

However much Shapiro fancies himself a level-headed professional, when it came to Wedge it was obvious that his emotions overwhelmed his reason. Plus, how many of us know jobs, organization, etc. that we’ve been a part of that claimed to “welcome” dissent, but really just wanted everyone to toe the company line? I’m sure the Indians are no different.

by J83 on Oct 24, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wedge strikes me as the kind of guy that you suggest something to and he doesn’t look you in the eye, then he grunts, then he walks off.

by afh4 on Oct 24, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder more and more if this organization really has the appropriate “checks and balances”. I also find myself starting to lean towards Valentine, if for no other reason than providing a discerning opinion, without allegiences.

by kennesawmountainwahoo on Oct 24, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The pro on Valentine is: If you had heard Ozzie Guillen’s interview with Chicago, would you have hired him?

by elsandito on Oct 24, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This reasoning is getting way too overplayed lately. Hey, Bobby Valentine leans back in his chair when he talks! He’s kind of glib when he answers questions! Ozzie Guillen wins World Championships this way!

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 24, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The ebb and flow of results.

by kennesawmountainwahoo on Oct 24, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Had Ozzie won any championships prior to the day he interviewed with Chicago?

by elsandito on Oct 24, 2009 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

or successfully manage the Columbus bullpen (Columbus had the worst ERA in the International League last season)

by APV on Oct 24, 2009 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kinda hard to have a good ERA when you have pitchers like Kenny Ray and Jak Cassell. Most of the prospects he had to start the year were taken from him as the year went on, especially on the starting pitching staff (Laffey, Huff, Sowers)

by datrain021 on Oct 24, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jensen Lewis and Raffy Peres both threw about 15-21 (too lazy to look up the actual stat) straight scoreless innings in Columbus, for what it’s worth.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 24, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m sure he said a lot…. to the Tripe A coaching staff…. What would he have had to say to wedge or Shapiro, unless he gets this job now? That’s not his place.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 24, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hans already posted exactly this point. My response is above.

by Jay on Oct 24, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t believe “open culture,” honest or not, extends that far. So even if they are being honest about that… I don’t think it would involve the minor league manager telling the major league manager what to do.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 24, 2009 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reductionist. It isn’t about Wedge obeying Lovullo. It’s about Luvollo’s ideas being part of the conversation, among the coaching staff and front office, about how to improve in this area. Remembering AGAIN that the front office had already informed Wedge that they needed to see some improvement in this area. For all we know, this is one of the main things that got Wedge fired.

by Jay on Oct 25, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can’t agree any less. If anyone expects a AAA manager to call Shapiro or Antonetti or even Wedge and say, “Hey, I know you guys do it this way, but here’s what you should do…” It’s a nice idea in theory, but we’re not living in reality if we think this is what happens in practice. And that doesn’t mean the organization is “not open enough” if a AAA manager can’t share ideas. It just means it’s not realistic.

That said, this sounds a lot like a AAA manager picking some low-hanging fruit to make a case for himself. I’m not exactly buying it. People say all kinds of dumb stuff about how to “get a team ready for the season.” Most of it is bunk. In April ESPN had Dave Winfield on, who said something to the effect of, “The most important thing is to have the team ready to play and ready to win.”

by tabler84 on Oct 25, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess I’ve been playing the devil’s advocate angle on this too much. If we take everyone’s statements at face value — if — the baseball operations people were having an organization-wide discussion about how to run spring training in such a way that the season will start better. Lovullo would have felt free to make his suggestions, and they would have gotten serious consideration. But this is only the hypothetical.

In reality, these public statements raise few different possibilities:

1. Lovullo did not make any of these suggestions, because he did not feel free to do so within the politics of the organization.

Maybe Luvollo was just too timid.
Maybe the open-culture thing is BS.

2. Lovullo did make these suggestions, but they were not acted upon and possibly not even considered seriously.

Maybe these actually are bad suggestions.
Maybe the organization is bad at evaluating and making use of all the ideas.
Maybe Wedge specifically is bad at it and/or Shapiro is bad at supervising Wedge.
Maybe the open-culture thing is BS.

So my real point in bringing this up is that no matter how you parse it, Lovullo’s comments raise a contradiction. Either he’s full of crap, or we ironically had the solution in the organization all along and failed to make use out of it, or the open-culture thing is BS. I have long hinted that it’s BS, at least partially, mostly because I see little evidence of a culture of diverse backgrounds and ideas within the organization, other than their own self-congratulatory statements to that effect.

So I’m not really saying Lovullo could or should have aided in the situation a year ago. I am saying that if we take his and the Indians’ statements at face value, then we should be believe that.

by Jay on Oct 25, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m a little worried that the point you made – twice – may be an issue. I’m really starting to wish that we had hired Valentine.

by kennesawmountainwahoo on Oct 25, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Valentine got short shrift here and elsewhere. I had a whole piece on Valentine more or less written in my head, and I was going to post it tomorrow. I think far too much was made of his not knowing much about the AL Central on the day he interviewed, and from what I could see, no attempt was made by anyone in the Cleveland media or even blogosphere to find out what virtues he had as a manager.

The reports said, “Obviously, what Valentine brings to the table more than the other candidates is experience.”

They may as well have said, “Obviously, we have no idea what Valentine brings to the table as a manager, and we don’t plan on lifting a finger to find out, either.”

by Jay on Oct 25, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you about Valentine. Maybe it was just a courtesy interview anyway. A prelude to Valentine getting back into the big leagues.

by odradek on Oct 26, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did they do that for any manager? Did we really find out the important stuff, like when Acta would pull a starter or how Luvollo would split playing time between certain platoons?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 26, 2009 5:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You’re apparently trying to trick me into defending the media.

The reports on Acta and Lovullo did in fact focus on more substantive matters, things they actually said about the actual job. In all cases, however, they just wrote the easiest story that was set out in the dog-food bowl in front of them.

by Jay on Oct 26, 2009 8:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would never try to put you in that position. I just didn’t read about it anywhere, but that goes to show what I’m reading I guess. The closest I heard was Acta saying he likes power arms.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 26, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was okay with Valentine and tried to ignore the stories about him bombing the media session. It’d be awesome to have greater insight into how these interviews took place and what Shapiro was looking for in the next manager.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 26, 2009 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just don’t get this perception that he “bombed” the media session. If you watch all the sessions, he stands out to me as obviously the best with the media. He’s relaxed, off the cuff, and has an instant rapport with the guys asking the questions.

His answers don’t say much of anything but no manager’s answers ever say much of anything.

by afh4 on Oct 26, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yea, truthfully, I didn’t even watch the media sessions because I didn’t think I would be able to learn anything from them including who was the likely favorite.

I am interested in seeing this afternoon’s press conference.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 26, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Valentine interview is down on the main page a bit. I’d suggest watching it if for no other reason than Bobby would be a good stand-up.

by afh4 on Oct 26, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see little evidence of a culture of diverse backgrounds and ideas within the organization, other than their own self-congratulatory statements to that effect.

Yikes

by stuart dean on Oct 26, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Am I wrong?

I’m not saying those statements are untrue, but they are self-congratulatory, and I can’t think of any supporting evidence. (Maybe someone else wants to offer some?) And now they hire a manager who’s really into stats. Awesome.

by Jay on Oct 26, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

for what it’s worth: in my professional experience, the more the company has to go out of its way to tout itself as a transparent, open-culture company (however you phrase it), the more likely it is that it is BS. It shouldn’t be something that has to be said. JMO

by clusterchuck on Oct 27, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

To be clear, the Indians haven’t claimed any transparency, only a culture that is open internally for people to contribute ideas.

by Jay on Oct 27, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with clusterchuck. The bigger a deal made out of it, the less likely it’s actually true.

by odradek on Oct 27, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I mentioned transparency because that's what I have experienced in the past within the organization (i.e. executive team telling subordinates that there would be transparency with regards to financial situation and things of that nature). My main point was simply your last statement.

by clusterchuck on Oct 27, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As to the content of Lovullo’s comments themselves …

People say all kinds of dumb stuff about how to "get a team ready for the season." Most of it is bunk. In April ESPN had Dave Winfield on, who said something to the effect of, "The most important thing is to have the team ready to play and ready to win."

… while in general I agree with this, I do think he made some solid points about the need to get intensity up for the first week. There is such an emphasis on looseness and evenness, I can envision a situation where the team struggles to make the mental transition from spring training to the regular season.

If you emphasize the importance of the first week, that runs at odds with the general philosophy of staying even-keeled. There is a fair argument to be made that this transition requires some nuanced leadership and messaging, and that Wedge probably sucked at that. And maybe Lovullo observed this over a period of years, or maybe it was random and he’s drawing the wrong conclusions from what he observed. Or maybe, as you said, he’s just scoring some cheap points at Wedge’s expense.

by Jay on Oct 25, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lovullo is a good plan “B” for the indians, a cheap alternative that if Acta signs somewhere else, will probably gain the job. (my thoughts anyways).

by hans on Oct 24, 2009 2:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I see Houston offering Acta the job soon and him taking it, then Lovullo seems like the best choice thus far. We’ll see how the rest play out.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 24, 2009 3:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Watching the video, it surprises me how many of Torey’s statements can be perceived as fairly direct jibes at Wedge

by APV on Oct 24, 2009 7:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Is there a Valentine-length video out there, or just the 2-minute one?

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 24, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Guy sure does talk a good talk. Would be interesting to see how things unfold managerial wise

by siejecy on Oct 24, 2009 8:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I speculate that Crowe is one of the players the AP article refers. From Hoynes:

Said outfielder Trevor Crowe, “I love playing for him. I’ve played for Torey the last two years. He has a way of making young players feel confident.”

by Jeffrey R on Oct 24, 2009 9:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It’s not like he was playing 2B for us though. I was thinking LaPorta/Marte.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 24, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Prior to August, Crowe played all three OF positions and had frequent off-days.

Marte wasn’t sent down to AAA this year.

LaPorta sure had sporadic playing time in his first stint with the team.

by Jeffrey R on Oct 24, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marte obviously was sent down to Triple-A this year. He was on the big-league roster, then he outrighted off the roster, and finally assigned to Columbus. This year.

by Jay on Oct 24, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah, of course you are right. What I should have said is that he wasn’t sent back down after being called up in late July. So Marte couldn’t have shown up in Lovullo’s office this season to tell him his confidence had been impacted by the way he was handled… though maybe that could have happened in prior seasons.

by Jeffrey R on Oct 24, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think it’s “maybe.” Marte spoke openly this season about the importance of playing every day.

by Jay on Oct 24, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And it was refreshing to see. I mean, what else did he have to lose by keeping his mouth shut. And he didn’t do it in an extremely negative fashion. It was good.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 26, 2009 3:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But OFs who don’t hit very well have to play all 3 OF positions.

Marte could have told Lovullo this in April.

LaPorta has to be one of the guys who said this.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 24, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Look, I think Crowe is no more than a fourth outfielder (at best) and I am glad that he wasn’t playing regularly before Sizemore went down. I’m just saying, based on Crowe’s comments about Lovullo and his usage early in the season, I think he must be one of the guys the AP article references. The article does say “players” (plural), and I think LaPorta could be another guy. Maybe Marte, I don’t know. I’m just wondering who else it could be. I suppose these comments could have made in a previous year, but even then there there doesn’t seem to be too many candidates.

by Jeffrey R on Oct 24, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course, in Crowe’s case, that confidence is essentially misplaced, so I’m not sure it’s a good thing.

by Jay on Oct 24, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

At first I was hoping it would be Valentine, but the more this goes on the more I’m pulling for Lovullo.

by datrain021 on Oct 24, 2009 10:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I for one hated not knowing if I was going to play day in and day out, when I played. Made it really hard to get any rhythm at the plate or in the field. If Lovullo can get our young guys’ confidence back and can get them hitting consistently…I dare say it, but I’d be willing to give him a shot at manager. Not that its my decision or anything, or that it might be a very unpopular move…but what the hey.

by MooneysRebellion on Oct 24, 2009 10:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs