One more take, from the DiaTribe
Paul gives a very thoughtful take and asks the pivotal question, who's fault is this? Not unlike my piece, he focuses in on that brief period in 2008 when both aces were actually pitching like aces, noting that the Indians nonetheless were 37-51 when Sabathia was traded.
An interesting note is the Casey Blake quote, that losing the ALCS changed the direction of the franchise. I don't think Blake is right. I think even had we won the World Series, the subsequent moves probably would have dropped in roughly the same order, 1-2-3. Those moves were made for a reason, and they had nothing to do with what happened n 2007.
over 2 years ago
Jay
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FB has fallen off badly, in my opinion.
by JulioBernazard on Oct 28, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Groups were never an interesting component of FB for me.
The Twitteresque status updates are getting really, really bad.
by JulioBernazard on Oct 28, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
The one player I think it might have effected would be Lee, I could see an influx of cash that carries over from a World Series win being able to potentially stomach an extension with Lee along the lines of what they were willing to offer CC, but possibly even better (in the team’s favor that is). That offseason may have changed as well. In retrospect they could have continued to bolster their bullpen or do whatever a front office would do with extra cash in an offseason. Although I do agree if the team tanked as hard as they have and Victor was traded, then I think dealing Lee would have happened anyways.
Purely conjecture, obviously, but I wonder if Shapiro would have pulled the trigger on the Lee-for-Bay deal if they’d won the 07 world series?
Who the hell would have traded Jason Bay for Cliff Lee after 2007?
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Oct 28, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The only trade Shapiro admitted to discussing was Lee to Arizona for Carlos Quentin but that the D-backs wanted more and before the Indians could really do anything Chicago had trumped their offer and made the deal.
Shapiro may not have discussed it, but this article from Pittsburgh’s paper says that this was very much on the table, I suppose where my hypothetical falls short is that this implies it was the Pirates that nixed things, not Shapiro.
But don’t let that get in the way of insulting posters.
by one two seven on Oct 29, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
CC just flashed that mega-watt smile that we all keep reading about and said…wait for it…"I don’t know what to tell them. It’s not our fault."
What a friggin jackass.
It’s not his fault we lost the ALCS?
It’s not his fault he refused to negotiate a contract extension?
It’s not his fault he signed with the Yankees?
Funny, as far as I know, all three of those things are almost entirely his fault.
You think winning the ALCS would have had any effect on him re-signing?
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
Maybe not CC – the second best Indians pitcher at the time – but I’d betcha Cliff’d still be pitchin’ for us if we had a 2007 WS trophy sittin’ in the case down on Carnegie and Ontario.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Then you need to pay attention. CC’s good but Cliff’s the real – HoF – material deal. Give it another 2 or 3 seasons – you’ll see.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
HoF is a stretch, Chuck. And I’ll bet you on that.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Oct 29, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
If he stays in the NL, I dunno. He’s basically Koufax over there and it doesn’t take a lot of years of being Koufax to get into the Hall.
Ha, good point. I’ll still take my chances on the bet, though.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Oct 29, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
But do you think if Lee gets six good years as an Indian/Phillie/??? he rates in people’s minds as well as Koufax?
Wait 'til next millennium!
He’d need multiple no-nos and rings, and I still don’t think he’d get in the Hall.
by JulioBernazard on Oct 29, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s the part you haven’t factored in. Cliff Lee is still going to be a dominant pitcher – AL, NL, I don’t care – when he’s 40. That’s at least 8 more years of domination. Now that’s a really, really big if. But I can see Cliff doing it.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I can wait eight years to collect on a bet if you’ll still remember to pay up
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Oct 29, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
There should be some sort of LGT sidebar where such wagers may be recorded for posterity. A forum like that would be fun to read.
Ooh, I like that idea
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Oct 30, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
You thought Cliff Lee was our 2nd best pitcher in the ALCS? I must be misunderstanding you.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
I think he meant Fausto was the best, and CC the second-best.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Oct 29, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s what I figured until he replied with a discussion of Cliff Lee. I still disagree with that though.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
No, I’m thinking 2008 and 2009 and probably 2010 and 11 as well. Cliff’s the better of the two.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
2008 and 2009 are as close to complete washes as can be. In that entire two year period Cliff has the lower ERA by .31 and CC has the lower WHIP by .090. Sabathia has also struck out 97 more batters. In reality, there is no discernible difference between the two. You hate CC, I get that, but making it sound like Lee has outpitched him for any expanse of time is willfully ignoring the facts.
In reality, there is no discernible difference between the two
Just as long as you cherry pick the stats. Here try this:
Cliff
Year 2008 2009 2008 2009
ERA+ 162 133 175 138
HR/9 0.7 0.7 0.5 0.7
BB/9 2.1 2.6 1.4 1.7
SO/BB 4.25 2.94 5 4.21
It’s close on ERA+ and HR/9 but clearly Cliff’s got it all over Tubby when it comes to control stats.
Now on to the kinda stuff that gets you into the HoF – post season stats.
Cliff Cazzi Culone
W 3 5
L 0 4
HR 0 7
BB 3 28
WHIP 0.69 1.5
H/9 5.4 8.9
HR/9 0 1.2
BB/9 0.8 4.6
SO/BB 10 1.79
Can you “discern a difference” now?
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Post-season stats get you into the Hall? Since when?
by Jay on Oct 30, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Results are all that matter Chuck. The game is scored in outs and runs, and both pitchers (for the past two years) have been almost exactly equal in terms of accumulating outs while preventing runs.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
by Joel D on Oct 31, 2009 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cliff’s post season winning percentage 100
Cazzi Culone .555 and for Indians fans, all his loses were huge!
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Your use of the win as a viable statistical measure of a pitcher’s quality in any given historical situation once again leaves me pinned into a logical and rhetorical corner from which I have no hope of escaping. You win, sir, you always do.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
by Joel D on Oct 31, 2009 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is completely absurd. In what measure is Cliff even the equal of Sabathia? Seriously, I’d like an answer to this.
I think he was clear, he means the past two seasons and (in his personal projection) the next several seasons.
I see where he said that. But the comment this was a reply to makes it sound as if Sabathia has less of a chance at the HOF despite his superior career numbers.
Here let me spell it out for you. I think a) Cliff will be pitching long after CC’s retired. b) Cliff’s best years are ahead of him and CC’s are behind him.
And no, I refuse to see how CC is as good a pitcher today, October 29, 2009 as Cliff is. You’re talking about the past. I’m talking about the future.
You can continue with your idolatry of Mr. Sabathia, that’s fine by me. I think he’s a jackass.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
There is literally no study that would even deign to suggest that any of the projections you make have much a chance of being true. Sabathia has been better than Lee, is every bit as good as Lee right now (whether you choose to acknowledge that or not), and is younger. How does that add up to Lee somehow eclipsing him so significantly that he ends up in the HOF?
And I don’t like Sabathia either.
Well … attrition rates are significant enough for pitchers that there is actually some significant chance Lee could have the better career going forward.
Yeah, there’s a study. I did it. I claim that my results are valid. Here’s how I’m proposing to validate my study: Cliff Lee gets in the HoF and CC doesn’t. You say that’s unlikely based on your interpretation of all available data. I say you’re wrong and that Cliff getting to the HoF is a lock. Let’s see who’s right.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
But upon what do you base your current opinion? We can’t interpret their final career data right now because we don’t have it; what about what you currently see makes you believe that Cliff is destined for the Hall while CC is not?
You seem wed to this point without giving us any support of it; I honestly want to know what makes you so sure, because I’m apparently missing it and I would love to be enlightened.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
Here’s the problem with stats: it focuses on the average and what you need to identify is the 2 or 3 standard deviation from the norm guy – like Cliff Lee.
Here’s Cliff’s strengths: pin point control, above average stuff and outstanding control of his emotions. What Lard Ass does well is throw hard with a plus curve. Cliff’s skills age much better than Sabathia’s. Randy Johnson and Roger Clemens are the only guys I can think of that have pitched well into their late 30’s early 40’s with a similar makeup – and both of those guys were fitness fanatics. Something Sabathia clearly is not.
But guys like Cliff – Maddox, Gaylord, Jim Palmer, Warren Spahn – can still pitch very well even after their fastball has lost 2-3 mph. Plus, Lee’s – like Palmer – got the best mechanics I’ve ever seen. There is no change in his delivery pitch to pitch, inning to inning or game to game. Sabathia, in my opinion, is all over the map with his – relatively – flawed delivery.
So that’s it. Cliff controls the game while the game, too often, controls Sabathia. Tubby’s mechanics are not as good and he relies – in comparison – too much on his stuff. He’ll be gone in 2-3 years – and I know he’s only 28 – whille Lee’ll be pitching well when he’s 40.
That’s my take. Let’s see if I’m right.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I disagree in part, but I’m glad you took a moment to outline why you feel the way you do about Lee.
For what it’s worth, David Wells was also a huge fatty with sometimes suspect control number who managed to pitch effectively into his mid-to-late 30s, even leading the league in WHIP at 35.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
This is the crux of Chuck: make an absurd claim and then refuse to support it with meaningful rhetoric while also refusing to temper it in any way.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
by Joel D on Oct 31, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I just wish CC had taken a larger dump.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Oct 28, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll have him take the L any day, performance aside. And kudos to Cliff, masterful performance.
by The Grimace on Oct 28, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
















