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Around SBN: More Televised Winter Baseball, Please

Fire Everyone! - Mark Shapiro

This is the final installment in a 12-part series.

"A Hit Is A Hit"The Sopranos, season one.

Christopher has been bankrolling a band called "Visiting Day", who are managed by his girlfriend Adriana.  He plays the band's demo to his associate Hesh, an old-timer in the music business.

CHRISTOPHER:  So?

HESH:  I think it's ... not good.

CHRISTOPHER:  Wanna be a little more specific?

HESH:  There's good.  And there's not good.  This is not good.

CHRISTOPHER:  Okay, maybe it's not your era — no offense, but ...

HESH:  Kid, music is music, talent is talent.  I don't care who you are.  I seen it all.  I seen heavy metal invented by Hendrix at the Bottom Line, he just got out of the army.  I told him, "Kid, I don't know what you call it — talent, charisma, magic — whatever it is, you got it."  These guys ... [gestures to the cassette] ... I'm sorry, they don't.

CHRISTOPHER:  That Vito is a great guitar player, Hesh.

HESH:  Good, fine, he's a great guitar player.  However, there's one constant in the music business:  A hit is a hit.  And this, my friend, is not a hit.

CHRISTOPHER:  But why?

HESH:  Christ.  Reasons we can never comprehend or codify, you pitiful schlepper.

Of all the installments in this series, this is the one where it's most tempting to beg off and admit, this might just above my pay grade.  I'll be honest, I can't say with much confidence whether Mark Shapiro should be fired.  What I can say is that there are definitely good reasons to fire him.

Before we get to that, better face up to some hard facts.  If you're going to fire Shapiro, you have to believe that a better option is available.  Chris Antonetti is the heir apparent, but you fire Shapiro and keep Antonetti only if you think that in keeping Antonetti, you preserve the best parts of Shapiro while rooting out his shortcomings.  Heck, maybe that's actually the case, but I personally couldn't say.  It doesn't seem likely.  And if Antonetti was the instant front-runner for most any GM opening, what would that make Shapiro if he were available?

Shapiro's calling card is turning walk-year veterans into prospects who become multi-year contributors to the team — a truly staggering haul, including Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, Coco Crisp, Shin-Soo Choo, Travis Hafner, Milton Bradley, Franklin Gutierrez, Asdrubal Cabrera, Josh Bard and Kelly Shoppach.  Add to that list, potentially, over the next several years, Matt LaPorta, Carlos Santana, Luis Valbuena, Michael Brantley, Lou Marson, plus a half-dozen significant pitching prospects, plus Mark DeRosa, Arthur Rhodes, Justin Masterson and Chris Perez.  Even his least successful trade acquisitions — Alex Escobar, Jason Michaels, Brandon Phillips, Billy Traber, Andy Marte, Josh Barfield — have not been entirely bereft of big-league talent.

We've chanted that litany before, but it bears recalling because horse trading is one of the most important jobs of a GM, and it's notably one of the only jobs where success or failure is directly traced to his decision.  Shapiro also has had an impressive run with third-tier free agent starting pitchers — Pavano made 33 starts and netted a decent prospect, Byrd completed three serviceable seasons, Millwood won the freakin' ERA title, and even Brian Anderson did okay for a couple of years.  And while fans rightly bemoan the dead weight of Hafner's contract, Shapiro has not really made the big, crippling mistakes that befall most GMs — on the balance sheet, Hafner-Westbrook-Dellucci pale before Wells-Rios-Ryan.

If you're going to get rid of Shapiro and his like-minded colleagues, then you have to be willing to live without those exemplary skills — without his leadership, class, and intelligence, his deftness with trades and contracts, the respect he commands within the industry, and especially — especially — his willingness to take the public body blows when tough decisions need to be made.   You can't assume that the next guy will excel in all of those areas.  I am certain we'd miss those qualities.

Having said that, I can tell you why Shapiro should be fired in one word:  Talent.

Baseball is never simple.  As a rule, the world's most elite natural athletes cannot succeed as major leaguers.  Hitting and pitching are simply too hard.  Hitting at this level requires a knack that may be the hardest thing to quantify or characterize in all of sports, and if you don't have it, then all the talk or mechanics and approaches in the world can't save you, even if you have several NBA championships and MVP awards on your résumé.  Pitching at this level requires a freakish combination of precise muscle control, huge arm-generated torque, resistance to elbow and shoulder injury under extreme stress, and intelligence.

Running a baseball club may be just as hard and just as unquantifiable; after all, more than a few titans of industry have tried and failed.  A brilliant executive can't necessarily run a ballclub any better than a world-class athlete can hit a curveball.  The brilliant executive can be an inspiring leader, managing and empowering his charges.  He can define what kind of people he wants working in the organization, hire them, set expectations, evaluate them, act on them.  He can fire people.  He can order case studies and surveys of best practices.  He can analyze statistics and devise processes, enact them, evaluate them, refine them, start over from scratch if need be.  He can maintain outstanding communication with his staff, with his bosses, with the public.  He can do all these things reliably, even predictably, because he simply has the tools and the skills.

For all that, however, the brilliant executive can't necessarily tell you whether it's better to overspend on Raul Ibañez or Kerry Wood.  He can't necessarily devise a process to tell you that, and he can't necessarily hire the right person to tell you that, either.  Nor can he devise a process to hire the right person to tell you that.  It doesn't always come down to objective analysis or having a good process.  Sometimes it comes down to talent: the talent to play, the talent to evaluate talent, the talent to develop talent, and the judgment to make decisions about talent.

Sometimes — often, maybe — it comes down to reasons we can never comprehend or codify, pitiful schleppers that we are.

Star-divide

Evaluating talent is a special skill, and here I can speak with some experience.  Most of my professional life is centered around my ability to identify genuine talent — musical talent, IT talent, and even writing talent — people who reliably will perform at a high or exceptionally high level, just about 100 percent of the time.  I have, on occasion, identified individuals with weak paper qualifications who later went on to excel in their field.  In some cases, they thrived in part because I gave them an opportunity and aided their development.  In other cases, their success was inevitable, and I just saw it earlier than some others.

I am not suggesting, by any stretch of the imagination, that I have the ability to judge baseball talent.  Maybe, if I'd spent 20 years working as a baseball professional, learning from thousands of discussions with scouts and making and testing my own observations — maybe then, but perhaps not even then.  For whatever it's worth, though, I can tell you that my ability to assess a person's talents is entirely intuitive.  I have no ability to explain it, or to teach anyone else how to do it.  I can be highly analytical in my assessments of people, breaking down facts and metrics, making rules and devising grading systems to create rankings — and I can teach these things by rote and by example.  However, none of that has anything to do with being able to differentiate reliably between a high ceiling and a low ceiling.

I can't tell you for sure that it's the same for baseball, but I worry that it is.  Most of the people reading this could be trained in the rudiments of being a low-level scout — doing your homework and measuring some kid's raw tools on the field.  Skills are another thing entirely — evaluating footwork and positioning on defense, observing quality of command across a variety of pitches, intuiting the difference between a bad day and a chronic problem.  Beyond these, another level, the crucial, game-changing question:  Will this ballplayer develop skills beyond what he's showing today?  How does he project to a different level at a different age, or even just to a different ballpark in a different league?

I have no doubt that great baseball scouts learned a lot from the great scouts who came before them, and I have no doubt that a gifted executive can learn immensely from a great scout, purely by his ability to listen and communicate and absorb.  At the same time, I am quite sure that the greatest talent evaluators in the game are possessed of something that is innate and ineffable.  And I am genuinely concerned that the Indians don't employ any of those people — and that, in fact, Shapiro may have favored others in the organization to the point where the best evaluators left.

Take a look at the AP report of Neal Huntington being hired away by the Pirates:

Huntington formerly was the assistant general manager to the Indians' Mark Shapiro, but dropped behind vice president of baseball operations Chris Antonetti and assistant general manager John Mirabelli on the front office depth chart two years ago.

Huntington accepted a different role in 2005, Shapiro said, because Antonetti's skills were in the management and administrative side, while Huntington's were in evaluation and scouting.

"My skill set and passion were more that of an evaluator, but they never technically took me out of the front office," Huntington said. "I was exposed to some incredible things -- rebuilding an organization and being involved in every decision, every tough decision, that was made."

And from the MLB.com report:

As an adviser to Shapiro and vice president of baseball operations Chris Antonetti, Huntington was involved in nearly all personnel and staffing decisions, as well as trade acquisition discussions. He also spent the majority of his time evaluating talent on both the Minor and Major League level.

When asked about Huntington, Shapiro responded: "[Huntington is] one of our chief evaluators and one of our strongest voices on every level," Shapiro said.

Here's a guy who was the highest-ranking evaluator in the organization and possibly the best, a guy with a master's degree in sports management from UMass, and essentially, he was passed over — well treated, perhaps, but pointedly not in line for a future role as GM. So too, perhaps, was John Farrell, who upon leaving Cleveland — quite amicably, as Huntington did — was quoted to say that he was looking to have a larger voice in an organization.  Farrell had been a major league pitcher and a college pitching coach, and with the Indians he served stints as Farm Director and Director of Player Development.  Despite his experience and impeccable reputation, Farrell too was not viewed as the future leader of the organization.

Years earlier, there was Tony LaCava, whom the Indians hired in 2002 as national cross-checker, essentially rescuing him from the sinking-ship Montreal Expos.  As the Expos very recent Farm Director, LaCava naturally was instrumental in selecting the prospects to be received in the Colon deal, which is not only Shapiro's signature trade, but arguably the most successful trade of a veteran for prospects by any GM, ever.  LaCava, too, was not retained in the Indians organization, moving on to the Blue Jays as Assistant GM in 2003, just one year later, while John Mirabelli continued his string of generally disastrous drafts.

Like Huntington, LaCava is going to be a GM sooner or later, yet he wasn't good enough to be Assistant GM in Cleveland.  None of these guys were given large enough roles in the organization to keep them around, and no doubt the Indians were possessed of too much executive talent to keep in-house — a nice problem to have.  Still, given how things have gone since, it's telling that the prince-in-waiting anointment, and present-day "co-GM" status, went not to an ace evaluator, but instead to Antonetti, a man whose background and skill set are more or less identical to Shapiro's.

For all the talk about being open to all ideas and all viewpoints, the major player-evaluation talent in the Indians organization was basically told that being a solid administrator was more important, and that their path to bigger jobs would have to be in some other, presumably less enlightened organization — and never mind that it doesn't matter how well administered your organization is if you don't know who the best talent is.  (Is it any wonder, then, that when Shapiro hires a former catcher for a manager, he then populates his coaching staff almost entirely with other former catchers?  All leaders lead by example, first and foremost.)

This is not to say that an executive without a scouting background cannot be an outstanding GM, but it's noteworthy that other organizations that have gone with the "Ivy League whiz kid" GM model tend to have a "wise old baseball man" figure hanging close by, advising the gifted non-scout executive.  The Red Sox had Bill Lajoie attached to Theo Epstein; Allard Baird is in that role now, while Lajoie is now advising Huntington in Pittsburgh.  The Rays put Gerry Hunsicker with Andrew Friedman, and down in Texas, Jon Daniels has access to no less than John Hart and Nolan Ryan.  But when non-scout-gifted-executives Shapiro and Antonetti huddle to make the big decisions, who are the wise old evaluators in the room — Charles Nagy and Jason Bere?

Later that night, at home, Adriana and Christopher discuss Visiting Day's potential.  Hip-hop mogul "Massive Genius" has told Adriana that the band's demos are promising.

CHRISTOPHER:  You know how I use the technique of positive visualization?

ADRIANA:  I know you talk about it.  You're fairly negative a lot of the time.

CHRISTOPHER:  I think you should mentally prepare for the possibility that Visiting Day sucks.

ADRIANA: What?

CHRISTOPHER:  I think that ... the only reason you've gotten this far with Massive is ... he wants to be in your pants.

ADRIANA: Boy, oh, boy.

CHRISTOPHER:  Look, I had some experts listen to the demo ... they crapped all over it.  Sorry.

ADRIANA:  Who, Hesh?  That old synagogue cantor?

CHRISTOPHER:  Silvio.  Hey, he owned rock clubs in Asbury.  You heard what Squid said.  A professional engineer.

ADRIANA:  What about my opinion?  That it's good.  That it's special.  This is just a way for you to keep me down.

CHRISTOPHER:  That ain't fair.

ADRIANA:  What's wrong with it, huh?  What's wrong with Visiting Day?

CHRISTOPHER:  I don't know ... but it's a problem that you don't know.

This series of articles perhaps has only demonstrated the obvious, that a club this bad — which decides in June that it must not only tank the current season but the next season at the same time — has suffered multiple failures in more than one part of the organization.  In any one area, we can talk about how much control that one group of people — coaches, scouts, trainers — really had, compared to the influence of the other groups and the whims of the fates.  But a systemic failure points ultimately to Shapiro, who hired and is accountable for all of those groups, and the harsh truth is that every club must contend with the whims of the fates — or fail to contend with them, as the Indians have.

Amateur scouting has been a disaster since Shapiro took over; maybe time will reveal that it was fixed two or three years ago, but maybe not.  Big-league scouting has been a mixed bag, with veteran acquisitions missing a lot more often than they hit — in Barfield's case, about four times more often.  The training staff has won high praise from some in the industry, but they haven't stopped the Indians from being undercut severely by injuries to a half-dozen key players in just two years — in some cases, multiple injuries and disappointing rehab processes have afflicted a single player like Jake Westbrook over and over again.  The farm system has been another mixed bag, producing too many players who dominate at Triple-A but can barely perform at replacement level in the majors.  If all clubs were like the Indians in this regard, those MLE formulas might look a lot different.

We had a manager whose playing-time decisions often defied any imaginable logic or reason, who thought it was important to have Ramon Vazquez on his bench rather than future 30-30 man Brandon Phillips, and who thought it was a good idea to put Ryan Garko in the outfield, with a rookie flyball pitcher on the mound — scratch that, ever — and we had a GM who let him do these things.  It's true that Shapiro fired Wedge, and he may be sincere in saying that bringing in a new manager is an exciting opportunity.  Even so, Shapiro made it abundantly clear that he didn't think there was any real, qualitative reason why Wedge shouldn't continue to be the manager — his exact words were, "it's a cop-out."

We had extraordinarily bad — and sometimes historically bad — bullpens in 2004, 2006, 2008 and 2009.  Those volcanic fiascos were, at least, largely Shapiro's direct creations, and at most, entirely the fault of Shapiro and people who were hired by Shapiro, and who generally have not been fired by Shapiro.  They have turned too many contenders into also-rans, too many decent squads into train-wrecks, and too many season ticket holders into non-customers.

The sum of these observations is this one, frightening, inescapable conclusion:  Shapiro has not given us any concrete reason to believe that he knows how to put people into critical positions who are capable of evaluating, developing and coaching real talent — the kind that can thrive at the major league level.  Without people in key roles who are possessed of that kind of judgment and talent, it doesn't make any difference how good your organizational processes are or how much class-acting you do.  We cannot contend on a diet of trade-acquired minor leaguers and recycled starting pitchers alone.  If these things weren't clear five years ago, or even one year ago, they ought to be crystal clear now.

I am just a scribe, neither scout nor coach, not a baseball executive and certainly not a former major leaguer.  So I don't really know what's wrong with the Cleveland Indians.  But it's a problem if Mark Shapiro doesn't know either.  And as much respect for him as I have, I'm not at all convinced that he does.

Comment 623 comments  |  11 recs  | 

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Devastating summation, Jay. Great work.

--
Force quit and move to trash.

by vbc3 on Oct 9, 2009 3:53 AM EDT reply actions  

Difficult to see all of this compiled, because it makes me question just how good he really is.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Oct 9, 2009 8:18 AM EDT reply actions  

They have turned…too many season ticket holders into non-customers.

This was the most important thing for me in this whole article. Now, I don’t have any idea how many season ticket holders the Indians have gained/lost in the last 7 years, but the financial aspect, IMO, is too important to ignore.

This team needs the season ticket holders, they need these people to buy those seats and lend tickets to friends who go to the games and have a good time and then decide to come back. I can only wonder about how many more seats this team would have filled had they been able to have been slightly competitive in 2004, 2006, 2008, and 2009. A few more fans in the stands might have allowed Shapiro to take a chance on an established, non-retread free agent pitcher (perhaps even pushing us over the top in 2005 or 2007). I just don’t know…but this team needs season ticket holders…and bad teams don’t gain those.

Great article Jay. Thank you.

by MooneysRebellion on Oct 9, 2009 8:51 AM EDT reply actions  

For some dumb reason I couldn’t get this Hesh out of my head when I read the Sopranos quote above….

by hans on Oct 9, 2009 9:24 AM EDT reply actions  

Very sobering, and worth recommending for “ineffable” alone.

by ken from alexandria on Oct 9, 2009 10:16 AM EDT reply actions  

So, is Fire Shapiro! still in effect if we hire the Old Scout Mind?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 9, 2009 10:21 AM EDT reply actions  

I would say no, if that Old Scout Mind can convince Shapiro to take chances he normally wouldn’t.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Big-league scouting has been a mixed bag, with veteran acquisitions missing a lot more often than they hit — in Barfield’s case, about four times more often.

I’m still laughing about this.

by NickFantana on Oct 9, 2009 11:24 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah that was a nice “that means what I think it means, doesn’t it” moment.

Captain of the SS [DO NOT TRADE] CHOO

by westbrook on Oct 9, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Imagine walking into your job and realizing (or someone tells you) that you have to start doing virtually everything different. It’s hard to comprehend this even if you are just a corporate cubicle type of guy, let alone the general manager of a whole organization. If I was lucky enough to have a job left after such significant failures, I would strongly consider quitting. Obviously compensation plays a huge role in that, but wiping the slate clean and reinventing yourself seems easier than staying in the same place and reevaluating (and possibly taking corrective actions) everything including yourself.

by Wil Cantrell on Oct 9, 2009 11:24 AM EDT reply actions  

Our best players wear……………the uniforms of other ballclubs.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Oct 9, 2009 11:43 AM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Our best players wear……………the uniforms of other ballclubs’ minor league teams.

Is this the whale section?

by sarcasmdave on Oct 9, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your points about Shapiro’s emphasis on leadership over talent evaluation skills, are thought provoking. This type of approach is common in the business community and it’s a practice that haunts businesses.
My one issue is your reference to Hesh’s comments. His reasoning for condemning the music was in comparison to music that had been successful. This evaluation of Shapiro was more along the lines of whether he measures up to some ideal GM. Shapiro doesn’t have to be any better than the alternative choices in order to keep his job. If we can identify a GM candidate that we reason to believe can perform better, I’m all for replacing Shapriro.

by elsandito on Oct 9, 2009 11:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Correction: I meant Shapiro only has to be better than the alternatives in order to keep his job.

by elsandito on Oct 9, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

There is no real direct analogy between baseball and the music business. The point of the Hesh conversation is really all just setting up the last line of it — the idea that there really are important things, in the real world and at the highest levels of some professions, that can’t be broken down with numbers or assured via process. We track the course of a flyball by performing an autonomic, real-time, trigonometric evaluation that we could never calculate explicitly given ten times the amount of time to do it. So too are there issues surrounding talent evaluation that rely on powerful intuition and insight, going well beyond what we can abstract and express explicitly or arithmetically.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

But that also precludes criticism except on the basis of : We got a championship vs. We didn’t get a championship. We certainly don’t have the ability (voodoo?) to divine the intangible quality of “it” or “not it” except by guesswork or just saying we haven’t gotten a ring so we must not have “it.” But doesn’t this bring this site down to the level of the “dolan is cheap” crowd?

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 12, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, that’s not how I meant it. The club doesn’t lack any ineffable “it” which costs it a championship, unless “it” is the ability to judge talent subjectively.

It is of course exceptionally difficult to judge talent evaluation, and coaching and devleopment, and training staff, because any one player’s performance is the result of all three areas, plus the player’s unpredictable behaviors and a healthy dose of pure luck. I think I’ve acknowledged that. But over time and many dozens of players and prospects, you would expect most of those unpredictable elements essentially to even out. By way of analogy, batting average may not be a reliable metric over 500 AB, but viewed over 5000 AB, it does start to mean something.

I think it is fair to say, in a similar way, that Indians players and prospects have not had the kind of productivity that they should have had, given their draft and signing pedigrees and any other ways that we can measure fair expectation. Noting that productivity shortfall, and tying it naturally to the scouting and development staff, is quite a far cry from saying that Dolan is cheap.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

so, Dayton Moore’s background was as a scout/scouting director. no point. just, i looked it up, so i figured i’d share…

by Brick. on Oct 9, 2009 11:51 AM EDT reply actions  

I think the caveat here is always, “…who knows what the hell he’s doing.”

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 9, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

wait. are you referring to me or moore?

how long till this meme is old?

by Brick. on Oct 9, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think its best use is very sporadically.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 9, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dayton has his own issues. I would never in a thousand years suggest that hiring an outstanding scout to be your GM is any kind of cure-all. Dayton’s predecessor was Allard, and while he seems to be contributing in the “wise old man” role, it goes without saying that he should never, ever be put in charge of a major league baseball operation again.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lord, can you ever write. Wow.

by afh4 on Oct 9, 2009 12:29 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Jay, or the Lord?

by Brick. on Oct 9, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

The Lord doesn’t write as much as dictate.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 9, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

This made me laugh.

Want out of Cleveland? Easy - mess with LeBron's entourage.

by woodsmeister on Oct 9, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

But aren’t the examples you gave at the beginning (of the great trades Shapiro made) the proof that Shapiro IS a good judge of talent?

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 9, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Or that he is good at using baseballcube.com.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

But can he hire people that help us actually win?

Captain of the SS [DO NOT TRADE] CHOO

by westbrook on Oct 9, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I went into this in a previous piece and debated bringing it up again here explicitly. My theory is that there is no easier place to identify talent than in Advanced-A or higher levels. At that level, you really can rely on statistical information, especially if you’re using the numbers in a sophisticated way, with the confirmation of a scouting staff that is decent if not stellar. Amateur scouting, in contrast, has almost nothing to do with statistical analysis, by the Indians’ own admission.

Let’s not forget, too, that the main reason that the list is so long is that the Indians have had ample opportunities to build it, and a GM with the guts to know that making those KINDS of moves is incredibly obvious from a strategic standpoint. Bottom line, Shapiro’s success in this one particular area can be taken as a confirmation of the overall theory rather than a sticking point.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting points.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 12, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also, how did LaCava do as an assistant GM? Why are you so certain he thrived in that role with the Blue Jays and the Tribe made a mistake by not promoting him as their own assistant GM, without giving us any indications in the article that this is so?

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 9, 2009 12:37 PM EDT reply actions  

i don’t suppose it’s the point – whether he was successful or not – but as an example/evidence of the philosophy…

by Brick. on Oct 9, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I did not start with the assumption that the philosophy is wrong. That, or I’m suggesting that that particular move is not necessarily evidence of what the philosophy really is (whether right or wrong).

In either case, why does a top evaluator have to be the GM or assistant GM?
One can just as easily explain that because of Huntington’s great strength as a talent evaluator and scout, he was better suited to a different (lower on the front-office totem pole) role, and his talents would be wasted as a “suit” higher-up like Shapiro or Antonetti’s current role. They needed him out in the field, not sitting in an office with a nice view and making the final decisions. They needed him as an expert to inform the final decisions made by a suited guy like Shapiro who can bargain well and has an eye for overall business management and the bigger picture.

In other words, Huntington was Shapiro’s Bill Lajoie.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 9, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

In either case, why does a top evaluator have to be the GM or assistant GM?

I don’t know, why? I never said that they should. What I would say is that if the GM isn’t a gifted evaluator, then it’s critical that he have the ability to identify top evaluators, recruit them, cultivate them, and retain them in the system. Furthermore, just about all GMs of all backgrounds spend a lot of time in the field watching players and prospects for themselves, and scouts and cross-checkers spend plenty of time in meetings and filling out reports.

As noted in prior comments, top evaluators have had all kinds of problems running teams, mostly due to a failure to understand the hard realities of player and contract valuations, negotiating skills, navigating the judgment calls necessitated by complex roster situations, leadership issues, etc. Then again, lots of guys like Scheurholz and Gillick have had nothing but ridiculous runs of success.

Neither model guarantees that you have a guy at the top that is capable of making good final decisions, but I would submit to you that a gifted manager/administrator is no more likely to make excellent decisions than a gifted talent evaluator is. Either way, you’ve got to have someone with great judgment who sees all sides of the issues.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great piece, again, Jay. I guess LGT escaped being #12.

It seems like a lot of comments over this season have been pushing toward the idea of baseball performance evaluation 3G. The first generation was idiot stats and old time scouting. Then came the Moneyball/sabermetrics era, focusing on smart guys in suits running sophisticated stats programs. But the inability of many of the teams that have invested in this strategy to have either sustainable success or win WS titles (see Oakland over many seasons), gives us some evidence that number crunching is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for putting together a successful ballclub. The challenge is how anyone, Shap or otherwise, can figure out how to successfully merge these two evaluative generations into a system that is accurate at predicting future performance more often that it is not accurate.

One comment on the comparison to identifying music talent with identifying baseball talent. It seems that there’s a slight difference in that there are, I imagine, tons of really talented performers out there who do not click with the market. That doesn’t mean they’re not good. They “perform” (literally), but do not sell. Baseball talent either performs or it doesn’t, and the evidence is in the actual stats.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Oct 9, 2009 1:01 PM EDT reply actions  

New School management and Old School management are like oil and water – they can never work together. Values are polar opposite as well as management styles. It just won’t work.

The best formula is to have a talented New(er) School guy – like John Hart – follow a superior Old School guy – like Hank Peters. Or half either one of ’em run a organization with a $100M+ payroll.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a simplistic and tremendously un-insightful view. Shapiro and Antonetti are in their current jobs because Hart put them there.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, I knew that going in. I didn’t say that Hart was infallible – after all he signed Jack Morris and Jack McDowell too. So yeah, I get it, but then again I never said that Hart was perfect either.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

And oh yeah, according to Wikipedia anyway, my idol Hank Peters was instumental in hiring Shapiro – but I think it had more to do with Peter’s relationship with Mark’s dad than anything objective.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that’s pretty simplistic. I think a thoughtful management team could figure out how these two ways of evaluating talent can complement each other.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Oct 10, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah, it would be great if we could find the right balance. But having worked in an environment with similar dualities I can tell you it’s a cats and dogs kinda thing. The guy that can harness these dissimilar types is gotta be a managerial genius.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

LGT was fired at the end of Part 9, The Fans, by Vince Grzegorek of Scene. One of the best things about this series, in fact, is that Vince didn’t have to be told, he figured out on his own that we needed to be fired, and he knew that he had to be the guy to pull the trigger, and he did it.

See above, the music industry references weren’t meant as a direct analogy, but rather just to illustrate the difficulty of trying to make all evaluations of human ability scientific.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry I missed that. I haven’t had time to catch up with the entire series, yet.

Yeah, I understood what you were saying about assessment. I just meant that one could be a perfect evaluator of musical talent (using those non-scientific measures), and still be wrong if no one wants to buy that artists’ stuff. It wouldn’t make you a bad evaluator of talent, just a bad predictor of what sells. A perfect evaluator of baseball talent could not fail (with the exception of unanticipated injuries), because the players that evaluator identifies will perform.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Oct 10, 2009 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Plus music evaluation is so subjective. Is Laurence Welk really better than Billie Holliday? After all, Welk sold a lot more albums in ’40s than Billie did.

Baseball – like all sports – is objective. There’s no style points, you either win or you don’t.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think there can be a little of both because there have been really great teams that haven’t won it, or even made the playoffs. The Tribe in 97 were in no way better than the 95, 96, 98, and 99 versions, yet they came oh so close to actually winning it.

by The Grimace on Oct 10, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is Laurence Welk really better than Billie Holliday?


This isn’t very subjective. Billie beats Welk, 999 out of 1000.

by odradek on Oct 10, 2009 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Subjectively no doubt. But if you look at the stats – albums/records sold it might be a lot closer than you think.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Are these adjusted for era and format?

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 10, 2009 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nope. Just straight up record sales in the ‘40s. Frankie Yankovich’s another guy who out sold Billie.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

This reflects back to my favorite saying we often used in golf, “there are no pictures on the scorecard.”

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 10, 2009 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

It seems like a lot of comments over this season have been pushing toward the idea of baseball performance evaluation 3G. The first generation was idiot stats and old time scouting. Then came the Moneyball/sabermetrics era, focusing on smart guys in suits running sophisticated stats programs.

I don’t think this is the reality of the evolution. I don’t think stats were ever ignored completely, and I don’t think scouts ever went by the wayside — and only in a handful of organizations have they really been marginalized.

Most of the “stat serious” front offices are quite explicitly trying to bring the best analysis together with the best subjective evaluations — certainly the Indians and Red Sox and Rangers are explicitly. And when Huntington got to the Pirates, one of the first things he started talking about was how they were going to use advanced metrics like wOBA and FIP.

Again, there is no war. The issue here isn’t whether the Indians think scouting is important, but whether management has the core competency to identify great evaluators, developers and coaches, and to put them into key roles in the organization. The Indians are trying to do everything exceptionally well, but they don’t seem to be succeeding.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can you think of a baseball organization – other than KC – that’s not “trying to do everything exceptionally well”? As one of my profs usta say, “doing your best isn’t good enough. You must do what is required”.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m sure there are one or two others, but I basically agree with you.

You painted the issue as being stats vs. scouts, not me. My point is that that is not really the problem and never was.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again it’s not versus it’s a matter of emphasis. I think you’re advocating something like a 50-50 approach. With the current Indians FO I’d bet that the deciding arguments in the draft/trade/sign discussion is based on numbers not scouting. I think that’s where the problem is.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s quite a bit more nuanced than that. I think there are lots of situations where both the numbers and scouting are clear-cut in the same direction. There are other situations where either the numbers OR the scouting are clear-cut, and it’s relatively easy to tell which one is showing you something more definitive.

In the remaining scenarios, which are many, the difficulty lies in trying to figure out what either source of info is really indicating, and THEN how much weight to give each one.

The larger point is that it doesn’t really matter what the exact proportions of emphasis are, because if the talent evaluation is mediocre, then the results aren’t going to be good regardless.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, you wanna join the “results-oriented boob” fraternity?

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the results are notable. I would like to think I’ve always been results-oriented.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t tell Tabs that – he’ll think you’re a “boob”.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

big ole rec

If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Oct 9, 2009 1:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Thought you would like this.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 9, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the general point here regarding the Indians’ ability to evaluate talent and to find and make good use of people who can evaluate and develop talent is right. But, I also find myself thinking that Huntington was part of the organization that has done a not-very-good job of evaluating and drafting new talent. it’s not clear to me whether he had a role in those bad choices or whether he was ignored or marginalized — if the latter, the case against Shapiro is stronger. We will obviously learn more about Huntington’s merits (or lack of them) as an evaluator of talent now that he’s in Pittsburgh. In the meantime, I’m reserving judgement on whether “marginalizing” Huntington was a big Shapiro mistake.

I DO think his inability/unwillingness to hold people accountable for obvious and repeated failures is a problem. Mirabelli’s repeated poor drafts, Wedge’s repeated slow starts, the persistent problems in translating AAA success into sustained major league success should have led to changes before now. Shapiro’s claim to fame is as a “manager” — but, he’s been too willing to accept mediocre to poor performances from his immediate subordinates.

by peter m on Oct 9, 2009 2:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Agree with everything here. Being a good manager means making tough decisions and not accepting the status quo always.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 9, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shapiro’s hubris may have led him to believe that he could pick a manager who would be a significant positive to the results over the medium to long term. (His sticking with Wedge may be due more to hubris than loyalty).

Ironically, if he were less personally invested in his manager selection, he may have been more willing to pull the trigger sooner.

Could Shapiro have ended up risking too much downside by shooting for too much upside out of the managerial position?

by palcal on Oct 9, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s an interesting way to characterize the situation.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jay – As you know from our sidebar, hubris has always been my fear in this FO. It is one thing to be smart but another to fall in love with how smart you are. One of the three guys who discovered DNA (of all people) once advised to never be the smartest guy in the room. If you are the smartest guy in the room than you have probably ceased to listen to new ideas with the side-effect that you are probably insufferable.

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Stuart, this is one of the most interesting comments I’ve read in a long time.

Also, if our FO still think they’re the smartest, then they’re hopelessly blind.

by jds16 on Oct 11, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hard to say whether Huntington was an asset or a liability here, but all accounts are that he was a big asset, at least as an evaluator. I wouldn’t presume to say definitively.

The larger point is just letting top evaluation and development talent slip out of the organization, while taking extraordinary steps to keep the top spreadsheet guys in the fold.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is probably the most insightful thing I’ve read about the Tribe all season, and there’s been a lot of good stuff. Well done, as usual.

"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay

by Turkmenbashi on Oct 9, 2009 4:40 PM EDT reply actions  

If Belichick and Pioli knew baseball, that combination would be exactly what we need.

Captain of the SS [DO NOT TRADE] CHOO

by westbrook on Oct 9, 2009 6:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Supposedly Pioli and Shapiro are “close friends”. That should help.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can tell you that my ability to assess a person’s talents is entirely intuitive. I have no ability to explain it, or to teach anyone else how to do it.

This is how am with quarterbacks. If only I could prove it to somebody and make a living out of it…

Captain of the SS [DO NOT TRADE] CHOO

by westbrook on Oct 9, 2009 6:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Got another way to relate this to football to turn this safety into a field goal of comments?

by Brick. on Oct 9, 2009 6:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

#13: NEVER HIRE MANGINI

??

Captain of the SS [DO NOT TRADE] CHOO

by westbrook on Oct 9, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

You mean Mark Shapiro’s brother-in-law?

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m curious, what do you think of Troy Smith?

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

he sucks.

Captain of the SS [DO NOT TRADE] CHOO

by westbrook on Oct 9, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then you don’t know quarterbacks.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or you don’t?

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s possible too, just more unlikely.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh no, he sucks. Quite badly, actually.

by Brad D on Oct 9, 2009 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think fwembt’s comment is pretty clear. He doesn’t think that Mr. Smith has the requisite skills to be a successful NFL quarterback. He’s wrong of course, but he’s clear.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, if we are talking NFL it is, at least, debatable. But you said “good QB”. And I would think there is no doubt that he is a good quarterback. Some of the best accuracy I’ve ever seen on both deep and short routes. Great quickness in the pocket and above average top end speed out of the pocket.

The only thing that makes him debatable as a good NFL QB is his size.

Personally- I think is Drew Brees with some speed and perhaps and I really hope he gets his chance soon to be a starter- I just hope it isn’t in Baltimore. (remember he beat out Flacco until some rare stomach virus).

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually not a “stomach virus”. Mr. Smith had a disease/syndrome that was common before the advent of anti-biotics. It’s called Lemierre’s Disease, a necrotyzing secondary infection usually caused by gram negative anarobic bacterium following a streptoccocal infection. It has ~10% morbidity rate. In other words Troy’s lucky to be alive, let alone playing pro football.

And I agree with your evaluaiton. Troy’s got a cannon arm, quick feet and lots and lots of guts. I hope he gets his shot, if not in the NFL then I think he’ll shine in the CFL.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now that Drew Brees has been mentioned, I am officially declaring this sub-thread over and done. Off to DBN with you all.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ha, sorry. Moving on.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just wish Sizemore had Troy’s arm is all.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the clarification on the medical stuff. I just remember it being a rare condition and it resulted in a long hospital stay and him losing a bunch of weight in an unhealthy manner.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, well, I’m talking NFL.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 9, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

When he has had consistent playing time in Baltimore, he has done fairly well. He’s just not as good as Joe Flacco, that’s for sure.

He’s also probably a bit undersized for an NFL quarterback.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I just want to bring this up:

Buck Showalter
“Playing Career” (1977-1983) — A, AA, AAA
Minor Leagues, 3 teams (1985-1989) — Manager
New York Yankees (1992-1995) — Manager
Arizona Diamondbacks (1998-2000) — Manager
Texas Rangers (2003-2006) — Manager
Cleveland Indians (2007?) — senior advisor to baseball operations
ESPN (2009?) — Analyst

Ok, what exactly did he do to deserve the title we gave him? Managers aren’t talent evaluators.

Captain of the SS [DO NOT TRADE] CHOO

by westbrook on Oct 9, 2009 6:51 PM EDT reply actions  

I have no idea what your point is, but I think managers absolutely have to be talent evaluators at some level.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well that makes sense, I’m not entirely sure what my point is either.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 9, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you are trying to say we should hire Buck Showalter to be our next manager…or maybe our GM, not really sure, but one of the two

by hans on Oct 10, 2009 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

You know what Eric Wedge has over Buck Showalter? He’s actually managed to win a playoff series! Please, for the love of God keep Buck Showalter away from this team…wasn’t 3 years of David Dellucci enough torture?

by The Grimace on Oct 10, 2009 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Great stuff, Jay. Makes you think. And anything that starts out with Sopranos dialogue will hook me in right away.

by TribeJay on Oct 9, 2009 7:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah with the Sopranos. I actually just started watching the whole series from start to finish and just watched the Episode quoted above last week. It’s like the Wire, too good.

by NickFantana on Oct 10, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great writeup. My new favorite word: codify.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 7:31 PM EDT reply actions  

So finally we get to it. In the end Mark Shapiro is/was unable to produce a repeatedly competitive baseball team. In fact, the organization he’s headed for 8 years has devolved what was an annually competitive team into one that will be lucky to get back to the play-offs in four or five years.

This is a well-written erudite essay, just one thing – maybe two – missing. There’s no personal insight. Insight like: how could I – Jay Levin, Andrew, Adam, Chuck, Turk or any other LGTer – be so horribly wrong about Shapiro? After all our evaluation of Shipiro has been co-signed by all those guys who awarded Shapiro not one, but two GM of the Year Awards. Where is the flaw in Shapiro’s – and by extension, our – talent evaluation methods? How can the Old School scouts who use only "idiot stats" – which would imply that they’re only used by idiots – be better at identifying major league baseball talent than one of the enlightened cognoscenti like Mark Shapiro? Two years ago there’s no way in hell anyone – on this site anyway – would ask these questions without suffering the scorn of almost every blogger here. But now with a Himalayan mountain of evidence it is clear that these questions need be asked. But instead of question our system – which relies heavily on sabermetrics – we’re questioning Mark Shapiro’s skill set. Now that is hubris!

Jay’s outlined what I think is one of the issues and that is the collective disdain for Old School baseball guys who haven’t embraced the New School arithmetic. Could it be that that’s the Achilles heel here? Could it be that by emphasizing the New Math at the expensive of Old School methods we’ve produced a "process" with a canyonesque hole in it? Apparently we have.

BTW, I think that Jay’s come close to a solution. But instead of having the Old School scout guy support the New School Harvard Management type, I’d put the Old School guy in charge and let the MBA type feed him data.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 8:04 PM EDT reply actions  

But instead of having the Old School scout guy support the New School Harvard Management type, I’d put the Old School guy in charge and let the MBA type feed him data.

The key, in either scenario, is for the one that is in charge to be able to accept, balance or correctly mesh the Old School P.O.V. with the New School. It takes trust, guts, and a little counter-intuition for an Old School guy to accept the stat-geek’s data, or for the New School guy to give credence to the hunches and beliefs of the Old School guy.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly, but it’s gonna be tuff marrying these two approaches together.

None of this stuff is “revolutionary”. Old School guys knew how to add BA and walk rate in their head – this was before the calculator when folks could actually perform this trick – and knew that a guy who hit doubles and HRs – what they usta call back in the old days a “power hitter” was more valuable than the guy who hit nothing but singles – the “banjo hitter”.

There’s nothing really new to the Bill James stuff except the vocabulary.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oy.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

And sometimes Old School people do stupid things and defend them with Old School arguments.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 12, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

yup, that’s a bad trade, a bad trade.

by hans on Oct 12, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m gonna go get the papers, get the papers.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 13, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

This seems more like you working out your issues than anyone else working out theirs.

Two years ago, we were looking at a decent bullpen, preceded by a horrible one, preceded by a brilliant one. The trend line in no way indicated that we were about to see two more horrible bullpens, making for three horrible bullpens in four seasons.

Two years ago, nobody, not even you, expected Hafner and Westbrook to spend the great majority of the next two seasons on the DL.

Two years ago, nobody could have predicted that Carmona would be almost entirely unproductive for two more years.

Two years ago, nobody could have predicted that the homegrown international talent crop would dry up and begin to resemble the homegrown drafted talent crop.

A failure to identify and retain top scouting, development and coaching talent has nothing to do with stats.

If a group of astronauts were to botch the calculations to go into a certain orbit, they wouldn’t respond by throwing out calculus. They’d recognize that they’d missed something critical in their decision-making. No matter what the record of the Cleveland Indians, math is still math, Idiot Stats are still Idiot Stats.

If heart surgeons were still using computational methods that were proven to be unreliable decades ago, chances are you’d be dead by now.

The “war” between stats and scouting is a myth, by idiots and for idiots. There is no war. You have to excel in all phases of the game. The Indians aren’t doing that, but it isn’t because they’re not trying.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

If a group of astronauts were to botch the calculations to go into a certain orbit, they wouldn’t respond by throwing out calculus. They’d recognize that they’d missed something critical in their decision-making. No matter what the record of the Cleveland Indians, math is still math, Idiot Stats are still Idiot Stats.

If heart surgeons were still using computational methods that were proven to be unreliable decades ago, chances are you’d be dead by now.

This might be an even better summation than the article above. And that’s saying something.

by Brad D on Oct 9, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

If heart surgeons were still using computational methods that were proven to be unreliable decades ago,

Hate to rain on your analogy parade, but T Surgeons do, in fact, use fluid flow calculations that are recognized by engineering experts to be flawed.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ah, the mystery of the human heart.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

BTW, medicine is a good analogy to baseball, both use some statistical evaluation and both require real – pardon the pun – people skills. Lots of modern docs have the “science” down pat but are poor with people. This has long since been recognized by the medical community and most teaching institutions are trying to correct this short-coming.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

The "war" between stats and scouting is a myth, by idiots and for idiots. There is no war. You have to excel in all phases of the game. The Indians aren’t doing that, but it isn’t because they’re not trying.

I didn’t put it as a “war” merely the level of emphasis – somewhere I’m pretty sure I used the word “emphasis”. So tell me, who is the Old School guy in the Indians FO?

And I can tell you from experience astro physics ain’t all that difficult compared to predicting human performance.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, then. I’m the one who made the point that it’s odd that the Indians are one of the few new-school front offices that don’t employ a special old-school adviser. So for you to bring that up isn’t exactly a counter-argument.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wasn’t meant as a “counter’argument” just to further demonstrate the Indians lack of concern for Old School methods.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not them.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed again.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Forgot to mention, you wanna start a war? Here’s a good way: refer to the metrics that others use as “idiot” something or other. That approach rarely garners any support amongst those who you disagree with. Plus, it says more about you than the people you’re criticizing.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is it all that important to garner support amongst people who have demonstrated a marked recalcitrance in attempting to learn anything beyond a superficial and misleading number?

by Brad D on Oct 10, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you want a “war” then no, berate the other guy and his opinions. If you want a conversation, I’d advise against it.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think I’ve made it very clear that I’m not looking for a conversation on that particular subject.

Also: Recalcitrance!

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just to be clear, do you truly believe that baseball guys who repeatedly use RBIs, BA, and Wins are idiots?

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes as declarative stats, RBI’s and wins are idiot stats.
BA is an idiot stat except in the extreme. With all other things being relatively the same, it is safe to say that a guy with a .338 ba is better than a guy tooling along at .177….

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are a few guys who speak only of “BA” and “RBIs” that are exactly what’s needed in the Tribe’s FO.

They may not be “sophisticated” when it comes to analyzing the contributions of specific Major League players, but they can spot a potential ML All-Star while he’s still in high school. So far the stats savvy guys have failed misserably at that task.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

So they can “an spot a potential ML All-Star while he’s still in high school” using BA, wins or RBI’s?
It is all projection at that point and they are looking at things the quants talk about like k-rate for example even if they don’t assign what they are looking at highfalutin names that look like the came from a U of Chicago econ course.
You are selling the traditional scout way short.

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re stuck on one form of evaluation – stats. This is exactly the short-coming of the Indians FO.

At the ML level and with to a lesser extend the A, AA, and AAA level, this kind of analysis has validity. At the HS and college level, because of the wide disparity of skills among the players, stats are less revealing than analyzing the players actual skill set – direct measurement as it were. This is what scouts do. Many scouts have adopted the newer stats – mostly to placate their pointy-headed FOs – but they rely more on what they see on the field and less on what the see in their spread sheets.

These guys are definitely not “idiots”. And like I said upthread, when you use a blanket term like “idiot stats” you’re dismissing a very, very, valuable subset of folks.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you had a real point to make, you wouldn’t have to talk about who’s pointy-headed.

Nobody cares what stats the scouts are using — as if you actually have any idea.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

There’s the point: scouts can be effective without ever looking at stats. The best of them rely on what they see on the field.

And, if you had a point to make, you wouldn’t have to talk about who’s an “idiot”.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not talking about who’s an idiot — you are.

Idiot stats are for idiots. If you don’t want to be an idiot, then don’t use them in argument.

I have immense respect for the impact and contribution of scouts. See also: THE ENTIRE ARTICLE PRECEDING THIS DISCUSSION.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can you invision an effective scout who only speaks of RBIs, BA and Wins? Would he be an “idiot” because he uses those numbers to describe a player?

I find the use of the term “idiot” offensive and reserve it for a very, very small group of people. Apparently you believe in applying it to a much larger cohort.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am not applying the word idiot to a person — you are.

I am applying it to certain statistical measures.

I can’t imagine an effective scout who speaks only in terms of statistics, whether it’s those three or any other. If he scouted a pitcher and came back saying, “he’s a winner,” he’d probably be fired. That is simply not useful information, regardless of your evaluative bent.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I should clarify a little.

Smart people do stupid things all the time.

Using Idiots Stats is, of course, idiotic.

Just because someone uses idiot stats doesn’t make them an idiot; it only means that they are doing this one, specific, idiotic thing.

By the same token, just because non-idiots use those stats doesn’t change the fact that they’re Idiot Stats.

As a partial aside, my Dad of course can cite the Idiot Stats for practically every Indian who played from 1948 though 1980, or something like that. He believes that batting average in particular has a special place in the history of the game, because the “batting championship” has been a big deal for perhaps 100 years. I can’t argue with this, and my Dad is about as far from being an idiot as anyone I know.

Having said this, he’s certainly beyond arguing that batting average is a useful metric for evaluating performance. He’s math major, he’s prepared extensive statistical evidence in his legal career — he gets it. But batting average is still a lifelong habit, for him and any fan of his generation, and it’s still in all the box scores.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then I’ve got no quarrel with the use of that term – just as long as you footnote this explanation every time it’s used.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe I’ll put it in the Ground Rules.

It was never my intention to stigmatize individuals, only the behavior.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I’m with your father on the protection of historical values. The usage of these terms in and of themselves is not bad—especially when the limitations of these terms are kept in mind. It wasn’t as if people just figured out that BA is limited (hence the old term: “He batted a soft .280”) or that wins are precarious values.

by odradek on Oct 10, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

There’s the point: scouts can be effective without ever looking at stats. The best of them rely on what they see on the field.

Agreed especially at the amateur level. Not only am I agreeing with you on this, I was not previously disagreeing with you on it either. What I was saying is that BA, wins and RBI’s are not effective measures of a players worth nor can they be used to project those players future worth. Perhaps the issue is semantic. If you prefer that I replace “BA, wins and RBI’s are idiot stats” with “BA, wins and RBI’s are less than effective measurements”, fine.

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that using the latter term – less effective, etc. – is much less pejorative. It has the added advantage of making you sound less smug, argumentative and arrogant. I see it as a win-win.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see it as a win-win.

But wins are idiot stats!

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 10, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

They may speak of BA and RBI, but evaluating players with stats is not their job.

Let’s not forget, Chuck, not every scout is a brilliant scout. Nearly every first-round draft pick has come strongly recommended by multiple scouts, and most of them don’t make the majors.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

For all the hand-wringing we are doing over this scouts versus stats stuff, let’s not forget that Shapiro has put a formidable offensive lineup on the field every year since 2005. The complaining, in my opinion, has the wrong focus. We should be talking about the failure to develop better pitching and bullpens.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 10, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I say this because we are talking about BA versus OPS in its simplistic form. Yet not one is complaining about wins versus ERA or other pitching metrics. The failures of our GM has been on the pitching side.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 10, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

In a limited defense, I will offer than pitching performances are much harder to project.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

That’s not the issue Chuck. The Indians don’t need BA and RBI guys. They need an evaluator of talent that isn’t mired in statistical analysis. A fresh pair of “eyes” if you will.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Whoops. Should’ve read all of the comments before echoing them.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

They are Idiot Stats.

Anyone who thinks those stats can be used to evaluate ballplayers effectively is badly misinformed and possibly an idiot.

If a person refuses to budge off those metrics despite the absolutely conclusive and incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, then that person is in fact an idiot.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Idiot – a person of the lowest order in a former classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25.

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Oct 10, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow — you’re making a point entirely in bad faith.

Here’s where you got that definition: Dictionary.com.

It clearly states that that definition is a technical term used within the field of Psychology. It is the second definition listed.

The first definition: “an utterly foolish or senseless person.”

I can’t imagine what point you thought you were making here.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah and its not even used anymore in psychology as a technical term. So an outdated definition at that.

by hans on Oct 11, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

but I’m old so it counts

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Oct 11, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

But you know I’ve seen other obsolet psych terms used on this very same site. Idiot savant for example or the new unPC term, retarded. Just cuz it’s obsolete dosen’t mean it isn’t insulting.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 11, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

that is true, and its basically used as an insult either to a person or a line of thinking. Just pointing out that fanintexas was citing an outdated definition. But, it certainly was used as fanintexas indicated at one time and because of its definition was then adopted as a way to insult someone’s intelligence or ability to think, which it still remains so today. Which you all probably knew already, just didn’t want anyone thinking it was being used within the profession of psychology or similar professions.

by hans on Oct 11, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those terms are used here, but as colloquialisms or slang, not as technical terms.

If I said, “that guy hits a TON,” you wouldn’t accuse me of saying he hits 2000 pounds.

by Jay on Oct 11, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely agree

"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay

by Turkmenbashi on Oct 10, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m no big fan of Shapiro, but it really appears to me that the failures of these teams is mainly on Wedge. These teams had talent. What else is a GM supposed to do? Well, I guess, um, maybe hire a better manager?

Now the current talent is pretty suspect, and this goes to Jay’s main point. But after a stretch of winning 4 out of 5 central division titles, and 1 world series (which this talent should have done), you’d expect the cupboard to be bare. Instead, we have 7 years of failure and a bare cupboard. Now that sucks.

by oxforddave on Oct 9, 2009 8:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Meanwhile the Twins have been in the play-offs 5 of the last 8 years.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are a few Indians in the cupboard…

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

But not the 2 or 3 guys we need to win the division. You see any Joe Mauer/Joe Nathan/Justin Morneau’s in this organization anywhere?

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really just wanted to make the “Indian in the Cupboard Joke”.

And really, it isn’t out of the realm of possibly that in 2 years we are sitting here asking how many other teams have a Santana/C. Perez/LaPorta in their organization.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

*possibility

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heck, two years ago, there was a debate if we’d rather have Mauer/Morneau or Hafner/Martinez. I think we were pretty split.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Back then I would have came down on our side and I don’t think Mauer’s “power” this year sticks.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree. I’ve been waiting for this for years. Watch where this home runs go. He’s always had power, and now he’s learning how to use it. Anyone who hits 16 opposite-field home runs has the ability to hit 40. It’s now just a question if he’s willing to come out of that inside-out stroke just a little bit more. Maybe he won’t ever hit 40, but I for one will not be surprised if he does.

by TribeJay on Oct 10, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do like the opposite field power, but I was reading somewhere about true homeruns and many of his homeruns were “just barely”. I could be confusing that and I can’t find the article again, but it’s just a thought. But if he could duplicate that HR output, I wouldn’t be too terribly surprised either.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 10, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

The ones to left, probably so. But when he turns on it, he’ll hit some no-doubters.

by TribeJay on Oct 10, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I think we both see the same things, I just don’t expect him to start turning on it more. I think if he develops that, that average is gonna plummet and people will wonder what happened, even though it might actually be more valuable.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 11, 2009 3:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yay! Another silver lining. We’d be great if we had 700 silver linings.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 9, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Joe Mauer was the #1 overall pick in the draft — we haven’t been as bad as the Twins were, nor have we been bad nearly as long or consistently.

Joe Nathan was the product of a trade, like many of our best players and prospects.

Justin Morneau isn’t all that. I give you Nick Weglarz, and you’ll take it and like it.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

True, but then again so was Brien Taylor, Phil Nevin, Alex Rodriguez, Paul Wilson, Darin Erstad, Kris Benson, Matt Anderson, Pat Burrell, Josh Hamilton, Adrian Gonzalez, Bryan Bullington, Delmon Young, Matt Bush, Justin Upton, Luke Hochevar, and David Price.

In the end you still hafta know something about evaluating talent to get an All-Star with the first pick. And I don’t trust that Shapiro or anyone else in the Indians FO has even that rudimentary skill.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think it’s that hard to make a good first pick when Mark Prior and Joe Mauer are both on the board. Some years, it really is easy.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Darin Erstad is an Eric Wedge wet dream.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

He can pin the other team deep in their own territory and win the battle of field position with his prodigious punting skills.

Want out of Cleveland? Easy - mess with LeBron's entourage.

by woodsmeister on Oct 12, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Joe Nathan can go [redacted]

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 9, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

He made a postseason hero out of A-Rod.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 7:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I mean not even Raffy Perez or Carsten Jackass could pull that off.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 10, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let’s see …

Against Il Cazzi, A-Rod went walk, first-pitch infield pop-up, intentional walk.

Perez faced 21 batters in that series but only faced A-Rod once — give Wedge this much credit, he generally didn’t let their best righty bat against a lefty reliever. The one time they faced off was in the 7th inning, one out, bases empty, Indians with a 6–2 lead, and A-Rod promptly hit a home run.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do remember ARod swing at a slider in that at bat that either hit his back foot or came close. The pitch that he jacked was pretty hellacious too if memory serves…

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

You must be thinking of another pitcher or another game, because A-Rod didn’t swing-and-miss in that at-bat. It went ball, ball, called-strike, foul, home run. Unless the foul ball hit his foot.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Memory serves poorly…

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, my memory argues with fact. Perhaps it was the foul ball…

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

But up until yesterday, A-Rod was seen [unfairly of course] as a postseason goat.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 10, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

He is however, still a postseason douche.

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

He is however, still a postseason-long douche.

fixed.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 10, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Used to be Lee, Sizemore, Sabathia, and Martinez.

by oxforddave on Oct 9, 2009 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wouldn’t you just luv to have those guys back come next April? As it stands now, we’ll be glad just to get the old Sizemore back.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Such a Negative Nancy!

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

How much money are you paying Sabathia to be on our roster next season?

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Carlos Santana comes to mind without even thinking about it. Actually, I’m not going to think about it because you’ll find a way to dismiss anyone I name.

by Brad D on Oct 9, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I haven’t seen much of Santana, but I’ll give you that one – but just that one.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno his upside might be Joe Charboneau without the injury or theatrics.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he puts up an 846 OPS as a 25 year old and then trends upward, which is what you seem to suggest, wouldn’t that make him every bit as good as Morneau?

by Brad D on Oct 10, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Could be. He just looks like a decent hitting, slightly below average OF to me. He ain’t Manny, or Belle or even Thome – that’s all.

We’re definitely gonna hafta pitch better than the 90s clubs cuz we ain’t gonna hit with them. I’m just wishin’ for another Lee/Sabathia combination and Carmona to come back to being Fausto again. That’s what it’s gonna take to bring down the Yankees. A team that scores 900-940 runs a year and ERAs at around 3.5-3.7. If we can do that, we’ll roll for 2-3 years.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well you wanted Mauer, Morneau and Nathan. We have Santana and Laporta so far. A trade could bring us our Nathan.

And you just compared LaPorta to three HOF caliber players, it’s going to be hard for him to match up.

by Brad D on Oct 10, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

That’s exactly the point – course Belle ain’t gettin’ into the HoF unless he buys a ticket – we need 2 maybe 3 HoF caliber guys to go on another run like the 90s. It’s way too early to say, but I don’t see LaPorta at that level. That’s true of Santana as well.

BTW, Mauer – I believe – maybe a HoF caliber talent, Nathan too. Not so sure about Morneau, probably not.

BTW, though it pains me to admit it, CC may have a shot, Cliff too. Victor, I don’t think so.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think Cliff has a prayer, CC has an outside shot. I can’t imagine (and am to lazy to research) that there have been many teams with three HOF players in the lineup for a period of time.

Belle was HOF caliber, I think, but the injury really derailed his career.

by Brad D on Oct 10, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Here hang on to this. I think that Cliff Lee will still be a dominate pitcher when he’s 40. Now that’s a long shot, but I’d bet it.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I could see that, if he can maintain his command I could see him be a better version of Jaime Moyer. CC I don’t see being a high level player or even that good for the life of his current contract let alone beyond it. As for Belle, even with the injury he is a HoF level player. The only thing keeping him out was and is his personality.

by The Grimace on Oct 10, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

So there you have it. Our last big run was powered by at least three Ho talents almost every year. Now we’re hanging our hopes on LaPorta, Santana and Weglarz. I’m still a believer, but I recognize how long a shot that is.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

That run could be indicative of the era though, that we’d need that much HoF talent to make it by in the steroid era. Not saying the Indians were bereft of those well included in the taint of that era but all you need to do is look to teams like the Twins now and you can see that sustained winning can be accomplished with very little HoF level talent (as good as Nathan is closers don’t curry much Hall favor especially since he will be peered with Rivera and Hoffman to an extent).

by The Grimace on Oct 10, 2009 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Manny, Thome and Belle, not to mention Vizquel, who probably has a damn good chance of getting in as well.

"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay

by Turkmenbashi on Oct 10, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

The only thing keeping him out was and is his personality.

Not the only thing. At his peak he put up HOF numbers, but the prime issue here is longevity – he didn’t sustain those numbers long enough because of injuries.

Want out of Cleveland? Easy - mess with LeBron's entourage.

by woodsmeister on Oct 10, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree. If Albert’s hips hadn’t betrayed him, he would have gone into the hall despite his lovable demeanor.

by odradek on Oct 10, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Only his last year he suffered from the hip injury and still managed to put up decent numbers. His numbers speak for themselves, even if he only managed a 12 year career it is still a HoF caliber career.

by The Grimace on Oct 11, 2009 3:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

He gets my vote. One of the best righthanded hitters I ever saw. Better than Manny.

by odradek on Oct 11, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is literally no way to make an argument for Belle being a better hitter than Manny. Manny had a higher, longer peak, played much longer, never posted a full season OPS under 878, and has a career OPS of 1002. As good as Albert was, he wasn’t quite as good as Manny.

by Brad D on Oct 11, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

But when he walked into bars with Jim Rice, people crapped their pants! How can you go against the Fear Factor?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 12, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

This maybe true. But with a team that had Eddie Murray, Jim Thome, Manny Ramirez and Albert Belle on it, Mike Hargrove thought enough of Albert to bat him third. Some day I hope to meet Mike and I’ll ask him why he did that.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 12, 2009 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

He hit him 4th. Baerga was 3rd.

Manny and Thome were still establishing themselves and Murray was on the downside. Belle was in his prime in 94-96 there was no question he should have been in the middle.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 12, 2009 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ranking their three best seasons by OPS+:

197 – Thome 02
193 – Belle 94
186 – Ramirez 00
184 – Ramirez 02
177 – Belle 95
173 – Ramirez 96
171 – Belle 98
170 – Thome 01
167 – Thome 96

Ranking their ten best seasons by OPS+:

197 – Thome 02
193 – Belle 94
186 – Ramirez 00
184 – Ramirez 02
177 – Belle 95
173 – Ramirez 96
171 – Belle 98
170 – Thome 01
167 – Thome 96
165 – Ramirez 06
164 – Ramirez 08
161 – Ramirez 01
160 – Ramirez 03
158 – Belle 96
157 – Thome 95
156 – Thome 97
155 – Thome 06
154 – Thome 03
153 – Ramirez 05
153 – Thome 98
152 – Ramirez 04
150 – Thome 07
149 – Ramirez 09
145 – Belle 93
144 – Thome 04
142 – Belle 99
134 – Belle 91
122 – Belle 92

Pretty typical of chest-thumping anti-stat people … you remember Belle at his very best and pretend like he was always like that. He wasn’t, but Ramirez was. Even Thome hangs in against Belle, peak vs. peak, and outside of those best three seasons, Thome is clearly better.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Manny still is, to an extent.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m pretty sure the reason is going to be that Manny was a pretty mellow (for lack of a better word) guy and Belle was bordering on a DSM4 diagnosis when it came to his temper and intensity. The on the field consequence of swapping those two in the lineup is pretty near 0. The off the field consequence would likely have been significantly greater.

by APV on Oct 12, 2009 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

“CC I don’t see being a high level player or even that good for the life of his current contract let alone beyond it.”

Based on what indication exactly? Did you think he wouldn’t be any good this year too? If so, he’s already proven you wrong there.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 12, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably based on historical attrition rates of pitchers, especially fat ones, but I didn’t write the comment so I don’t know for sure.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 12, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think he’s probably a good bet because of his frame. But of course, none of us really know anything except the historical odds.

The once and future

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Oct 12, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn’t there also something about how stress-free his mechanics are as well?

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 12, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

His frame may make him a better bet than most — if you want to argue that — but no pitcher is a good bet to still be in the game seven years into the future, let alone to still be productive, let alone to still be worth $23 million per season.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with this.

The once and future

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Oct 12, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

As an aside I’d like to point out that in the year 2015, CC will be 34 years old. We won’t know the kind of workload he will have dealt with up to this point, but we know that for his first 9 years he averaged about 210 innings (including a 2007-2009 stretch of 240 IP/year). And he’ll be making $23 million for that season’s work alone. And he can’t be traded, assuming anyone would take him.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 12, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I originally posted this on OTM a year ago … based on PECOTA attrition rates, which stretch out to seven years, you can estimate the relative value of each of the next seven seasons of a player’s career. This technically is irrespective of the quality of play, which would make it more complicated. It’s meant only to represent the relative risk, in each season, that the player will cease to be basically productive.

Using relative values for each of the seven seasons, I then redistributed C.C.’s total contract value into proportionate salaries for each year:

2009 – $29.0 million
2010 – $30.7 million
2011 – $26.3 million
2012 – $23.0 million
2013 – $19.2 million
2014 – $18.2 million
2015 – $14.5 million

Rest assured, the contract still makes no sense in the out years, especially given he has an opt-out clause that may cut the club’s on-field benefits significantly while doing nothing to mitigate risk. But it makes more sense viewed this way than as a straight 23M-per deal.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, cause “life of his current contract” totally meant this year. And the indications are pretty obvious and nickjs21 already pointed it out rather well. But if you think a pitcher that has thrown over 100 pitches in 208 of his 288 career starts is going to be dropping a 3.62 era with a 1.23 whip in 220 innings in his 15th season more power to ya.

by The Grimace on Oct 18, 2009 5:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

RIght. Most ridiculously unwise contracts superficially look good after one year. They will tend to peak in perceived value after one or two years.

Kevin Brown — first two years, averaged 241 IP, 34 starts, 2.80 ERA. Last five years, averaged 119 IP, 19 starts, 3.58 ERA.

by Jay on Oct 18, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well if you’re an Indians fan in the 90s you got to see the 94 Indians – Manny, Thome and Dennis Martinez, the 95 Indians – same three plus Dave Winfield and Orel (he might still make it) , the ‘96 Indians – Thome Manny and Jeff Kent, the ’97 Indians down to two here with just Thome and Manny, ’98 just T&M and then ’99 with T&M and Robbie Alomar. 2000 the same three and then 2001we lose Manny and it’s just Thome and Roberto and then Robbie leaves in 2002 and Thome leaves in 2003.

So yeah, you and I have both seen teams with 2 or 3 and arguably 4 HoFers on them. Just not in the last few years.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

You even forgot a HoF player…Eddie Murray. But yeah, the 90’s Indians were loaded with HoF talent. One could even argue Lofton as a fringe HoF and Vizquel should get in because he is arguably the best player ever at his position.

by The Grimace on Oct 10, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jeff Kent had an OPS+ of 89 for the Indians in 1996, after a 105 OPS+ for the Mets that season. At age 28.
In 1996, Jeff Kent was not seen by anybody as a future HOFer. We were watching something special in 1996, but it wasn’t Kent.

by jds16 on Oct 11, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

We’re definitely gonna hafta pitch better than the 90s clubs

So instead of finishing first in the league in ERA like they did in ’95 and ’96, should they try to finish in negative first?

Of course they won’t score like those clubs did. But when I look at the projected lineup, I see a lineup where they could be above average at every position in ‘11 or ’12…Santana, LaPorta, Valbeuna, Cabrera, Chisenhall, Hafner, Choo, Sizemore, Brantley. Maybe no HOF’ers, but I think the future is pretty bright offensively.

by TribeJay on Oct 10, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

But we didn’t pitch that well from 1997 to 2001.

We also didn’t win 100 games per season after 1996.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed – that’s why I was referring to ’95 and ’96.

by TribeJay on Oct 10, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just got done watching the ‘95 ALDS with Boston. Man, that Indians line-up is just incredible. Lofton gets a walk, goes to third on a bothched bunt from Omar, and then you get Baerga, Belle, Thome, Murray. That line-up just doen’t quit – cept for Sorrento of course. Right now, today, there’s no way to envision that kinda offensive power and speed from the current group – and that’s if all the prospects reach their ceiling.

But then I look at the ‘95 pithcing: Nagy and Orel – on the down side of his career – are the aces. I’ll take the ’07 Fausto, CC and the ’08 Lee over either of those guys at their peak.

That’s what I’m talking about. Two honest-to-God stud starters on the team at the same time. Not Nagy and Hersheiser.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

You forgot El Presidente!

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

He wasn’t exactly at his peak either.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, he was. Martinez had a 135 ERA+ from age 36 to 40, 1991 to 1995. Prior to that, he had an ERA+ of 100.

Per ERA+, his best seasons by far were 1991 (age 36) and 1995 (age 40). All things considered, 1995 was probably his third or fourth best season. Nearly all of his good seasons were in his 30s.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yer right. I remember him unravelling rather quickly after that, ERA+ of 109, 58, 93 the following year. So, yeah, in ’95 he was essentially just as good as he was with the Expos in ’91 and ’93.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Funny you don’t like Sorrento because Garko always reminded me of him.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 10, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I see them as similar players Sorrento with more power and Garko making better contact. But Garko was the best alternative we had at the time and no worse than the 6 hitter on the team. Sorrento rarely made it to the top 8 in that line-up.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, he hit 6th in a platoon role for much of the first few months…with Ramirez and Thome hitting 7th and 8th. After Thome proved himself, he moved up to 6th later in the year and Sorrento hit 8th.

by TribeJay on Oct 10, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even though we’ve had a good lineup the last few years, let’s be honest, the #6 hitter in these lineups wouldn’t be in the 1995-1999 lineups at all.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Chuck, I know what you’re saying, but the Tribe didn’t win with two honest-to-God stud starters in 2007. The Braves had the starting pitching advantage most every year for quite a stretch and only won one title. The Cardinals had two honest-to-God stud starters this year and are on their way out as I type this. Sure, you’re better off with top-flight studs but it’s not quite the advantage that it’s made out to be.

by TribeJay on Oct 10, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d opt for lucky, if I knew how to get it.

Barring acquiring an honest-to-God talisman, I’ll go with two of Lee/Carmona/Sabathia – or their equivalent – if I can get it.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

One of the BP guys has made the point, and I agree, that in the playoffs, having three good starters is better than having two great ones. Of course, either way, you’ve got the entire lineup and bullpen to deal with, too.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gimme Lee and Halladay and Tomo Ohka and Jeremy Sowers and I’ll guarantee you a trophy.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think you will. The odds of Lee or Halladay going Cole Hamels (of this week) all the sudden are much greater than Ohka or Sowers suddenly learning how to pitch.

But I’m willing to take that chance, which I’m sure is the point you are making.

by Brad D on Oct 11, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

And of course you remember Byrd getting all cagey-veteran against the Yankees and Westbrook pitching better than anyone could have hope for. Of course then there was CC being CC-play-offs instead of CC-regular season.

I still want my Spahn and Sain duo instead of Nagy/Hershieser/jMartinez.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 11, 2009 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lee and Halladay are not ant better than what we had in 2007, or the Braves had for five or six years in a row.

by Jay on Oct 11, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Justin Morneau’s OBS age 25 .934
Joe Charboneau age 25 OBS .846

So other than having French surnames, what’s Morneau have in common with Charboneau?

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Both drop off after that year. Morneau’s good, but let’s not make him something he isn’t. His career OPS is 851.

by Brad D on Oct 10, 2009 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Luv to have him on the Indians though.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Would you love to have him for the next four years, $56 million?

Somebody is still drinking the RBI Kool-Aid and/or doesn’t understand what an 851 OPS is.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

You know I wouldn’t pay that kinda money. Four years $24M and, yeah, it’s a deal.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

But that ain’t the deal, is it.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Forgot to mention: POSITIONAL VALUE!

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

And, oh yeah fwembt, forgot to mention: POSITIONAL VALUE!!!

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, that’s easy. Super Joe for batting coach in 2010!

by kennesawmountainwahoo on Oct 12, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

He apparently has a good relationship with the PR staff at the very least, as he’s around for little ceremonies like the All-Decades team at Columbus or whatever that was.

by Voltaire on Oct 12, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

not since 1994 – 2001

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Oct 10, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

These teams had talent.

I think this is an important point. The 2007 team was without a doubt one of the top 2 teams in baseball. The baseline talent level has, I think, been pretty solid since 2005. This year’s team, while not without questions in the starting rotation, was a talented roster that smart and dumb systems alike thought was a 88-90 win team – which would have us embarrassing the Yankees right now. I don’t want to give Shapiro a pass because Jay raises many many important points, but there is an underlying reality that Shapiro has put together what is a talented team and should have been a reasonably successful team.

by APV on Oct 10, 2009 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think it might be a different skill set.

Shapiro and even Wedge were good at building a foundation of a good team. But you have to then be able to look to making that team 1.) Good in the postseason and 2.) sustain that success. The first may have more to do with luck and minor managing decisions. But I think there is something to the #2. I have little doubt that Shapiro can rebuild this thing into a team that has talent and might win 90+ games in 2 of 3 seasons again, but can he sustain it?

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 10, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yankees really stole that one. I hate them.

How did that LF ump blow the Mauer double.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 10:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Un.Believable.

--
Force quit and move to trash.

by vbc3 on Oct 9, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

twins still should have scored with the bases loaded and no outs.

by hyphens on Oct 9, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aren’t these fire everyone posts getting old? The Indians have sucked these last 2 years. Let’s face up to that and stop with the sarcastic everyone is to blame bs posts. They’ve sucked. Someone should be canned for that no matter how good each individual move looks.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 10:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Well 714, you maybe the first to go.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow, great comment. Fire the a random commenter on an Indians blog. Great one. Really funny and totally an awesome comment.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s true. He still seems to like me, for some reason.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

i’ll stick up for him a little. He has been on DBN for a while and he is usually reasonable, though I don’t often agree with him.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks. I like DBN, I think maybe it’s a little bit too free flowing. But I’ll take that any day to the strait jacket of the LGT blog.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Apparently you’ve never seen a gamethread.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

So then why don’t you?

Nobody’s keeping you here.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Awesome once again.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not trying to be cute here, I’m serious.

If you don’t like it, why stick around?

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

well, you nailed one big difference between LGT and DBN, but the incredible and consistent content on LGT shouldn’t be ignored- or disrespected.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I had the same thought. This guy is not usually a malcontent.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know what to tell you, we announced it as a 12-part series, and it was a 12-part series. Sorry you didn’t like it. You want a refund?

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes. But this series hasn’t turned out all that great considering the collapse of the Indians.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I will be the first to disagree. This series has been amazing.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really? Fire the fans? That’s pretty inspiring stuff. This board can’t even agree that the Indians have drafted like crap over the past decade and they are running a fire everyone series.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

So if we draft like crap you want to… fire nobody?

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, I want to fire Shapiro and the rest of his team. But if I expressed that opinion, I’ll be roundly and thoroughly beaten down. So I don’t. Even though the Indians haven’t been all that great or even average.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you give valid reasons for such things, you wouldn’t be. If you randomly show up and shout “Shaprio sucks a boat load, lets get that bum outta here!!!”, then that is another story. No matter the opinion it must be brough with intelligence and thought.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Make a credible argument. Maybe you will be “roundly and thoroughly beaten down”. Defending one’s arguments is where we grow as fans and as people. I’ve been agreed with and I’ve been crushed – the latter is always more interesting…

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

So true. For someone who really loves the game and hungers (often futilely) to understand it better, there is nothing more interesting than being shown that you were totally and completely wrong about something.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Philip Rivers!

… back to baseball…

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 10, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

What does that mean dude? Honestly!

by joeee on Oct 10, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

This happens to me on a weekly basis here, and I’ve learned quite a bit from it. Especially from you, Jay.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 10, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, that’s certainly validating. Thanks for your thoughts and for your circumspect approach.

by afh4 on Oct 13, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I could see this.

A hidden benefit of having posted so many comments on here is that I feel we begin to know when someone is being emotional and when they’re posting thoughtful commentary.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 13, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re upset that it took to part 12 to get to Shapiro? You think he should have been first?

Want out of Cleveland? Easy - mess with LeBron's entourage.

by woodsmeister on Oct 10, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought Fire the Fans was actually pretty inspiring stuff.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I mean, it’s not like we’re out there buying tickets.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

(I’m agreeing with you, Jay, in case it’s not clear by my comment.)

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Some of it seemed tongue-in-cheek, some of it was great analysis. Maybe you didn’t like that line they walked along. But really, it was good stuff.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not “inspiring” – “inspired”. And yeah, I thought it was lame too.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

This series was about the collapse of the Indians. I’m open to criticism of it. Some parts were better than others, of course. We often didn’t know if we were kidding or being serious. It was intended to be both provocative and cathartic, but I think the season ended so totally awfully that it was hard for anyone to get any good catharsis out of anything.

Anyway, send me your address, and I’ll send you a full refund.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, we should be in awe of you to provide such content. I’m so grateful for a refund.

Look, I like LGT. But sometimes I feel like expressing an opinion that isn’t popular leads to all sorts of problems. For example, the fire Wedge comments were roundly criticized and a joke was made of them. Until, of course, prominent front pagers started saying that maybe Wedge should be fired. Then it was OK. I just wish this blog would be a little more tolerant of opinions outside of the mainstream.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure where all this attitude is coming from. I thought I was being a pretty good sport, trying to give you a serious answer about why we wrote what we wrote, despite the fact that you’re basically just being a dick about it rather than making a serious critique. And in return, you just give me more attitude? Geez, grandpa, did the cat crap in your oatmeal again?

I’ve got news for you, buddy — we are outside of the mainstream. I’ve got posts here highly critical of Wedge from 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009. The idea that it wasn’t okay to criticize him until some recent turnaround is frankly just bogus. Having said that, often the manager is blamed for things that are totally out of his control, second-guessed with hindsight for moves that were perfectly reasonable given the situation.

Shooting down knee-jerk, dumb criticism of the manager doesn’t mean that criticisms of the manager are out of line. It means that dumb criticisms of the manager are dumb.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Huh? A cat crapping in my oatmeal? I’m not sure what that means. And no, you aren’t outside the mainstream.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Talk to folks at the Jake, listen to talk radio, read up the comments on Cleveland.com. That’s the mainstream.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s not the mainstream. That’s a loud minority who are roundly criticized here. And I agree with the criticism. But, and here is the problem, the Indians have not produced. Even though I’ve agreed with pretty much every every move they’ve made and disagreed with the Cleveland.com crowd. Except, of course, the Cliff Lee trade. Then I agree with the Cleveland.com trade.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

What does the Indians not producing have anything to do with this? Nobody here is claiming they have/are.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you think those people are not the mainstream you are nothing more than woefully misinformed. Read the paper, listen to WKNR or WTAM after a game, read any other Indians site, sit at the Jake for a game, that’s the mainstream. This is as far as you can get from that.

by Brad D on Oct 10, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually I’m with 714 here. It’s the outliers that call in or post. You sit in a bar, or on a construction site, or even the student union at CSU and you’ll get a different view.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’d say from experience that view is still in very close concert with the view expressed on cleveland.com.

by Brad D on Oct 10, 2009 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would just say, simply, that unlike you, Chuck, the mainstream fan does not understand that under the circumstances, keeping Sabathia in the fold was an impossibility at worst and a really bad idea at best.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

The student union at CSU is under construction, so you’d be talking to guys in hard hats over there.

As someone who actually goes to the places you mention, I respectfully disagree. The chorus I hear from virtually all non-obsessed followers I’ve been in contact with is “Dolan is cheap,” “Wedge is an idiot,” and “we should never have traded Martinez.” And, I hear far more about the Browns than about either the Indians or the Cavs. Which makes me wonder about people’s sanity, sometimes.

by peter m on Oct 10, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

So the Mather House is closed? And the Rathskeller? It’s been awhile.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rathskeller is open. It is between work and the Jake. It is so skeevy that I hold my breath when i walk past…

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

See, that hasn’t changed.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you mean Mather Mansion? If so, it’s still there, but temporarily, as a University office building. I think there’s a plan to make into a boutique hotel like Glidden House, but that’s on hold for obvious economic reasons.

by peter m on Oct 10, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now it’s a “mansion” is it? When did Fenn College – oops, I mean The Cleveland State University – get so toney?

BTW, MH usta be the student union back in the Dark Ages, and the Rathskeller was in the basement. They actually served 3.2% beer down there. It was quite the place when it opened.

Coupla other historical points. The swimming pool usta be on the 8th floor of Fenn Tower, right above the basketball court. Out of bounds on the ball court was the wall, so there was no doubt when you were out.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

One more, all of the dorm rooms – all of them for the entire “university” – where on the 12th floor of Fenn Tower. All of them.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

CSU/Fenn College BB Court

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Guess that didn’t work. Try this

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fenn Tower, the whole thing, is now a dorm.

Obviously, the Rathskeller is no longer in the basement — you may recall that the drinking age was raised to 21 back in the early 80s, making much of CSU’s undergraduate population ineligible for such treats as 3.2 beer.

Mather Mansion was always a ‘mansion’ — built for the Great Lakes shipping magnate of that name.

by peter m on Oct 11, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it was Flora Stone Mather who donated the house to the YMCA around the turn of the century. Could be wrong about that. But this much is true, Cleveland State, nee Fenn College was originally a YMCA institution of higher learning. Over the years it morphed into a state school.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 11, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re saying it was a school for retards?

by odradek on Oct 11, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it was an “Idiot School.”

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agree with Chuck in that cleveland.com isn’t necessarily mainstreem. People who comment out of pure emotion and without thinking doesn’t always represent everyone.

I know this might walk a line for politics, but if you read the comments on cleveland.com only, you’d think Cleveland would go 75-25 Republican, but its actually the opposite.

I’m not positive how it plays out in sports, but I don’t think cleveland.com commentators, or KNR callers is necessarily the majority in opinion on sports.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 10, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I also agree that the mainstream isn’t as dumb as the people on the radio or on clevecom.

by NickFantana on Oct 10, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

While the mainstream isn’t as dumb, I’ve found that the mainstream typically agrees with them (being the cle.com or call-in sorts), but with less vitriol.

Consider how many people LGT actually reaches against how easy it is to read a comment under a cleveland.com story or hear a caller on the radio or watch Bruce Drennan or some other garbage. While these opinions might not always be mainstream, they’re still shaping the opinions of the viewers and listeners when it’s all they hear.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 11, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

It means you’re being inexplicably unpleasant.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

You are right, actually. I think I’m upset about seeing Cliff Lee and Sabathia in the playoffs while the Indians finish with a terrible record. And yes, I understand both moves and all of the stat analysis behind them.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then we shouldn’t be arguing.

by Jay on Oct 9, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sabathia would be in New York in the playoffs right now, trade or no trade.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like I said, I understand the rationale for trading Sabathia.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

BTW, that LGT darling, Victor Martinez, looks pretty comfortable on the Red Sox bench wearing a Boston uni. You think there’s any chance he’ll be back with the Tribe – you know, given his professed love for all things Indian?

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 9, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh, no way. I’m sure he’s pretty happy being on a team that contends every year.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don’t think the indians want him back.

by hyphens on Oct 10, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe not at the price he’ll command on the open market, but I’m positive they’d want him back for the right price.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

This seems obvious.

by Voltaire on Oct 10, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ya think so? What if he takes ABs from Santana, then what?

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Victor can play 1B, and for that matter, Santana can play 3B. Given our suspect options at those two positions, believe me, there’s plenty of room for both of them on the roster, even with Shoppach and Marson around.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agent M is quite the suspect.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Future Third Base Coach Victor Martinez. Next!

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

He does have a point, though. I remember in a post a couple months ago he was critical of the Indians’ drafting over the past decade and he was getting jumped on for it, by you as well as others. He wasn’t being an idiot about it or anything, just simply stating that we haven’t drafted many players who have helped us in the majors under Shapiro’s watch. But people here were all over him for it.

Now, in your post above, you mention the lack of succes that Shapiro has had in the draft. What’s different now? Why is it okay for you to criticize Shapiro’s drafting record but not okay for others to do it?

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 10, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’d have to point me to the thread, but I suspect that you’ve forgotten some of the finer points. I have been among the leaders mugging people who try to critique the Indians’ draft strategy — the “high ceiling vs. safe picks” argument, which is as much of a dumb non-argument as stats vs. scouts. That is not the same thing as noting the lack of results, or wondering whether the Indians’ drafting has been more bad than unlucky.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know what you are referring to, and it wasn’t about “high-ceiling” picks. It was more along the lines of people defending the strategy while he was saying the results weren’t good so it’s valid to criticize the draft. He seemed to be saying the exact same thing you’re saying in the post above.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 10, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t really see how this justifies his being a jerk in this thread, on an entirely different subject.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

His point was about people with contrary opinions getting jumped on by some members of this site, which does happen at times. I’m not talking about idiots making stupid statements like “Dolan is cheap”, I’m talking intelligent people who have a differing opinion.

Now, I don’t agree with his criticisms of this serie — which I thought was well-done — but he has a point about the way some people here act doesn’t always allow for dissenting opinions.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 10, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brad, I know I can count on you not to prolong an argument that is serving no productive purpose.

Whatever point he was making, it didn’t have anything to do with his original point, which was, “this whole series of articles is stupid.”

Found this thread, but I don’t see any “jumping on.” I think he makes some good points, and he’s answered with some good points.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry, I really didn’t think I was prolonging an argument — I didn’t see this as an argument at all. I fail to see how discussing any possible ways to make this site better is unproductive, but I guess that’s just me.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 10, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cols initial contribution to this thread was not “any possible way to make the site better.”

by Roger Dorn on Oct 11, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure walking in here and saying “Fire Wedge” has been criticized in the past 16 months.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 10, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wanted Wedge fired in 2008, and I don’t remember getting criticized, just a healthy debate.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 10, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree. Not so much this season, but last year I remember people getting criticized for saying Wedge should be fired.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 10, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

By me, for one.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 11, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder how much of that was conviction that Wedge shouldn’t be fired, and how much was shoulder-shrugging at the reality — this F.O. wouldn’t fire him except in more extreme circumstances, as has been made evident.

by fleerdon on Oct 13, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve wanted to Fire Wedge since 2007, but never felt put out.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

{Deep breath}

  • The Fire Everyone series is intended to foster conversation.
  • If you have a train-wreck like the 2009 Indians then all possibilities should be on the table.
  • Nobody is advocating that anyone be fired so much as advancing credible enough arguments so that each can be examined seriously and discussed intelligently.
  • Things are bad, really bad. Maybe everyone involved including the fans, you. me or even Christopher and Adrianna should have to prove that they shouldn’t be fired…

Have fun, stretch your mind. Hell maybe you can argue a side of an issue that you don’t agree with just for the intellectual exercise of it. Above all else, follow the Jim Rome credo of “have a take and don’t suck”. If this is not to your taste and desperately yearn for simplistic answers than perhaps you should quietly move on.

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Please don’t compare this bastion of intelligence to Jim Rome. Listening to him makes my brain hurt.

by Brad D on Oct 11, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes but "have a take and don’t suck" is an excellent credo…

by stuart dean on Oct 11, 2009 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I suppose that is true.

by Brad D on Oct 11, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

For all of Rome’s faults, his interviews are solid. If the show were simply that, I could listen almost every day. It’s the callers that make the show insufferable at times.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Or that it takes him ten minutes to basically reword a single thought 17 times.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 12, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cowherd takes an hour to do the same thing.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 13, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

They collapsed in May.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

They’ve sucked. Someone should be canned for that no matter how good each individual move looks.

I’m pretty sure at least half of the posts in this series have been investigations of those very people you claim need fired. You think Jay wrotealmost 3000 words just for the sake of being sarcastic and nothing more?

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Disagree. The “Fire Everyone” title is too sarcastic to take anything else written seriously.

by Cols714 on Oct 9, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

So the title makes the writing bad? Wow, enlightening.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 9, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, try ignoring the title and just read the above article as if it were in your favorite sports website or magazine or newspaper.

This is great writing and incredible analysis. If you can’t appreciate that, maybe this isn’t the site for you.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 9, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the irony in ‘fire everyone’ is actually useful. It was intended, I think, and was effective in drawing attention to oversimplifications in what all kinds of people were saying about the problem with the Indians. In each case, I think we wound up having to acknowledge that there were arguments to be made that each of the twelve was the culprit, but in each case, we also were reminded that it’s not so simple. I don’t agree with everything I’ve read in these threads, but I have been encouraged to think by what most people here have to say.

by peter m on Oct 10, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I appreciate your take on this, thank you.

For my own part, I can honestly say I was surprised by how much I learned from almost every installment of the series. I expected more of a recounting or exhortation, but there was some great (and sometimes even fresh) substance in there, too. I learned a lot from the parts I wrote, too — I know a lot more about Carl Willis than anyone needs to know now, and I honestly didn’t think I could make a good argument for firing Shapiro when I started writing this final part. The more I worked on it, the more I found there actually was a pretty good case.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I apologize for my own contributions. Especially in the case of Wedge, his actual firing gave my piece much more of a time constraint and made it much more of a reaction piece than I intended. I think there is actually a lot more we can go into with Wedge and his success and failures – but in response to his immediate firing it just wasn’t possible. I thought everyone else’s contributions to the series were outstanding, though.

by APV on Oct 10, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, your loss if you made up your mind after reading the title.

by Ryan on Oct 10, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

What would you have called it?

I thought it was a nice blend of satire, reflection and analysis.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I suppose it’s a half-way interesting point that some suggestions shouldn’t be tongue-in-cheek. And if you ask say, APV, about his Fire Wedge! post, he’d probably tell you he was being serious. I know this because, aside from obvious context clues, APV called for Wedge at some exact date in May, and Wedge was fired before it was posted.

Look at it this way: the Fire Everyone! lense (sorry to use academic speak) is useful because it creates a justification for the LGT authors to critique every single piece of the Tribe without discrimination. If it were, say, entirely serious, the authors would first have to choose which aspects of the Tribe had to go and which could stay, which introduces a layer of interpretation and bias.

by joeee on Oct 9, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

That was the idea. The title was just a way to organize the analysis, and wasn’t an actual directive. If we weren’t as comprehensive as we were, especially if we had omitted Shapiro, the criticism would have been that we weren’t going after the leader of the organization. And just because we covered someone or something didn’t mean that we automatically wanted them gotten rid of.

by Ryan on Oct 10, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

How could we even consider omitting Shapiro? Had it only been a four-part series, he still would have had to be one of the installments.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was just using an over-the-top example.

by Ryan on Oct 13, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

This seems like an incredible overreaction.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 10, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just wish this blog would be a little more tolerant of opinions outside of the mainstream.

by odradek on Oct 10, 2009 2:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Get out of my stream.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 10, 2009 3:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the Indians have been struck by the “smartest guy in the room syndrome” since 2005 or 2007. I remain confident that the front office people are actually smart enough and humble enough to change course given this year’s total breakdown. I remain encouraged by the initial results of the last two drafts and the chance associated with Brad Grant’s promotion to head of amateur scouting.

by APV on Oct 10, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I agree with this. Shap did a great job of managing expectations when he took over. The Colon trade, along with the 2005 season (don’t forget, we only had to go to a sixth starter four times, so we had some luck) gave him credibility with all of us. The incredible good luck from 2005 has been balanced out (or maybe more than balanced out) with some incredible bad luck recently (all of the injuries the past two years). Although I lived through the ’70’s Indians, I don’t think this is the ’70’s Indians. But I’m also not sure about that.

by kennesawmountainwahoo on Oct 10, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

If they weren’t humble before, they should be now.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 10, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Game 1 of the 95 ALDS is on MLB Network right now for anyone interested.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 10, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Completely forgot that Canseco played for the douchebags back then.

by kennesawmountainwahoo on Oct 10, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

That whole organization is Team Canseco.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

The entire organization is on steroids?

You are reading my signature.

by rolub on Oct 12, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m watching this.

Couple observations:
1.) Loving the Costas and Ueker combo.
2.) They talk like it is a forgone conclusion that Belle will win the MVP.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 10, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

3.) Vaughn was nowhere as fat as he was later with the Angels.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

4.) Baerga was 11-for-13 in SB attempts that year. All seasons after that combined, he was 5-for-14.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, you know, he got fat too.

by kennesawmountainwahoo on Oct 10, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was so funny to watch run. If you ignored his utter lack of forward progress, there was so much going on that he looked like he might be fast.

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I will never forget that lineup. Truly a magical year and the team of my childhood.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 10, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I ran into Pena a few years later and thanked him for the home run. Not so much for winning the game as for ending it – I was freezing my ass off at that point.

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I forgot about them checking Belle’s bat.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 10, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

How sweet was that home run from Belle? I still get chills.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 10, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Same.

I love the shot of him pointing to his arm yelling “right f****in here!”

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 10, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can’t believe that Roger Clemens and Tim Wakefield pitched for the Red Sox at the same time. And amazing Wakefield might have been the ace of that staff.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 10, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Supposed to say “amazingly, Wakefield…” I do not think Wakefield is amazing.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 10, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, he was sort of a magician, fooling people with that knuckleball.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 12, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Do we have a game thread going?

by kennesawmountainwahoo on Oct 10, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

They should set up some sort of email alert you can subscribe to for whenever a classic Indians game is scheduled.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 10, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dish Network still doesn’t have it. I email them about once a month but so far it hasn’t done any good.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 10, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

What an amazing play at first. SAFE!!!

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 10, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

TONY PENA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 10, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love the look of disgust on Albert’s face when they walk him.

by kennesawmountainwahoo on Oct 10, 2009 3:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Ok, easily best part of that game was Orel’s outfit during the Pena celebration.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 10, 2009 3:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed. That was awesome.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 10, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, after the 12-part series is complete, what do you feel is most in need of change? Regardless of their reasons, the FO felt Wedge had to be fired. What’s next? Does anyone else get fired?

by lenred on Oct 10, 2009 9:46 PM EDT reply actions  

the whole damned system is in need of a change. it won’t happen though.

technically, as of right now, 25% of the topics in the Fire Everyone series have been fired as Shelton and Willis were dismissed with Wedge. I understand that they may be retained by the next manager, but as of right now, they’re gone.

by clusterchuck on Oct 10, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reading between the lines of Shapiro’s statements, it seems likely Shelton will be back.

It will be interesting to see if changes are made in scouting and development. Yes, Brad Grant is now running the draft, but he still works for Mirabelli, and considering the totality of international scouting, the lack of high-level minor league pitching talent was evidently as big of a problem this season (in Shapiro’s view) as anything at the big-league level. We could also see new faces for Farm Director or Director of Player Development, and other minor league coaches, though I wouldn’t bet on it.

Shapiro and Dolan promised a top-to-bottom review, and I don’t necessarily think firing Wedge is the only result.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can see justification for keeping Shelton. I feel that since the failures of 3 of the past 4 seasons were mostly due to poor pitching and Wedge has taken the fall for those failures, Willis is going down with that ship as well and will not be back.

I am hoping that the order for a top-to-bottom review came directly from Dolan. The reason I say this is that even though Shapiro was not dismissed, it is important that he feel a little bit of the pressure to perform. I look at this as Dolan starting the clock for Shapiro to prove that he can put it together.

by clusterchuck on Oct 10, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think the question is less one of will we see new people, and more one of will we see new approaches from the people we have – which is obviously much more difficult to assess

by APV on Oct 10, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand. I guess the reason that I mentioned the 25% number is that when this overture was announced, we were all uncertain as to what would change. At this point, the playoffs are still being played, we’ve dismissed our manager and coaching staff and we could still see more changes. It was more so my pointing out that I was slightly (and pleasantly) suprised to see that this season spurred on some changes. At the time the overture started, I was not 100% sure that even Wedge would be fired. I think that points directly to a new approach by the FO to sacrifice “stability” for the potential of better performance.

by clusterchuck on Oct 10, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am interested in knowing whom we should hire to replace Shapiro? Let’s throw some names out there so we can compare Shapiro to these highly regarded candidates.

by elsandito on Oct 10, 2009 11:28 PM EDT reply actions  

The Kenny Williams that is already a GM? Is he available?

by elsandito on Oct 10, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

The same what manages the White Sox. Would he do it? Doubtful, but it would be fun to see.

by odradek on Oct 11, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think he would perform as well under more restrictive payroll. His best moves are often taking on a larger contract in hopes of a rebound. The Indians wouldn’t be able to take risks on Peavy and Rios at their current costs.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 11, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Based on the assumption that we are pitiful schleppers who don’t know what’s wrong with Shapiro and Shapiro doesn’t know what’s wrong with himself, Williams does have a WS ring. Maybe Williams is the guy who knows how to identify a “hit”?

by elsandito on Oct 11, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

What are you talking about?

He’s made some good moves, and he’s made some moves where he took on a bad contract. I can’t think of a single example where one move met both criteria.

Keep in mind, he ended up only paying Thome about $20 million total.

by Jay on Oct 11, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just meant he has taken on some big contracts, something that would be more difficult to do with the Indians.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 11, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I’m saying, maybe he’d be even BETTER if he couldn’t do that.

by Jay on Oct 11, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea, I suppose it’s a matter of if he can restrain himself from doing anything stupid that would handicap him with a smaller budget.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 11, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Dolans, while lauded for their hands-off approach, do sign off directly on any major expenditure. There would be no Alex Rios waiver claim and possibly no Jake Peavy trade.

by Jay on Oct 11, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you are probably right. Williams would be under restrictions that would help prevent some of his more risky and sometimes costly moves.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 12, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

He signed Alexei Ramirez. He found that big fat guy with the funny beard to close games.

by odradek on Oct 11, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I acknowledged at the outset of the piece that replacing Shapiro is a daunting problem, and that is part of the case for retaining him. Still, there are other, more successful GMs out there. Some of them have a scouting or playing background, and some don’t. But look at the A’s. True, they’ve now struggled three years in a row, and it’s not clear when they’ll make their next bold strike.

On the other hand, their win total hasn’t dropped below 75 in over a decade, and they just came out of an eight-year period with four 1st-place and four 2nd-place finishes. There’s no ring, of course, but this is a reasonable standard of competitiveness for a small-market success story. The Twins provide another model, as do the Marlins.

These GMs all came from someplace. Not being within the industry, we are in a worse position to look for successors than we are to catalog Shapiro’s successes and failures. Because of that, I don’t presume to insist that he must be fired. I only presume to state, as I did at the outset of the article, that there are good reasons to fire him.

by Jay on Oct 11, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t presume to insist that he must be fired.

Off with his head!

by odradek on Oct 11, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m glad you mentioned the Twins here. I’ve always thought they do a great job of finding useful bullpen arms (or even SP arms) late in the draft, or on the waiver wire. A few examples that pop immediately to mind are Pat Neshek, Nick Blackburn and Scott Baker. Nesheck was a 6th rounder in ’02. Baker was a 2nd round pick in ’03 (selected many picks after we took Javier Herrera). Blackburn was a 29th round pick in ’01. All the caveats of the draft being a crapshoot apply, but still, they seem to turn out more useful arms via the draft than we do.

If I was put in charge of the Indians, I guess I would find out who is responsible for drafting their pitchers and bring that person (people) in.

by lenred on Oct 11, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

And then wait five or six years for that great decision to pan out.

As I mentioned above, there is a real possibility that this has already happened in the form of Brad Grant, but it really is too early to say.

by Jay on Oct 11, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shapiro just doesn’t have that much time, mostly because Dolan doesn’t have that much time. He may have righted the ship, but it’s gonna take at least three years to determine if he’s corrected the drafting flaw in the organization. There’s little chance the Indians will have a winning record and therefore an excellent chance that revenues will decrease once again. Dolan can stand that kinda hit. Shapiro’s gonna be gone in the near term, so why wait until 2010 to start fresh?

Shapiro’s a sharp guy; definitely his father’s son. But he’s not a baseball guy, he’s more of a sports franchise manager and much more adept at handling the business/contract aspects of the game than the baseball part. Not to say he’s not good at the baseball stuff, he’s just not the guy to lead a limited revenue club to repeatedly compete for a title.

But if the next 17 yo Bob Feller hit him in the head with a 102 mph fastball, I don’t think that Shapiro would recognize his talent.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 11, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

mostly because Dolan doesn’t have that much time.

Dolan actually has all the time in the world. He can’t be fired.

by Brad D on Oct 11, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even Larry Dolan has a limit to the amount of money he can lose.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 12, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

You really have no choice but to wait to see if the draft is fixed.

Sure, you can fire the GM before that, but you still have to wait anyway.

The Bob Feller example, pardon me, is just dumb. The issue isn’t whether he can see the obvious. I’m quite sure he can, but one assumes that every GM can see the obvious. Competitive advantage lies in the margins and frontiers of raw ability, knowledge and strategy.

Shapiro has spent his entire adult life working for the Indians. I have no doubt that he is a baseball guy through and through, well beyond just about anyone who could possibly be reading this, even though just about everyone reading this is a baseball fanatic.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Competitive advantage lies in the margins and frontiers of raw ability, knowledge and strategy.

I’m not sure what the “frontiers of raw ability” are, but I know this: in eight years of heading the draft and the previous five shaping the draft the Shapiro lead Indians have drafted Tim Drew, Ryan Drese, CC Sabathia, Zach Sorenson, Jeff Baker, Brian Tallet, Derek Thompson, JD Martin, Ben Fransisco, Ryan Garko, Brian Slocum, Michael Aubry, Scott Lewis, Jeremy Sowers, Jenson Lewis, Trevor Crowe and David Huff. You maybe operating at the “frontiers of raw ability” but you also need to operate at the baseline level at every aspect of the game too. And after at least eight years of drafting we – the Cleveland Indians – are below that baseline. If we are going to compete for a pennant, this level of performance is totally unexceptable.

The sum total of Mark Shapiro’s on-field competitive sports history is four years of playing offensive tackle at Princeton. A (generously estimated) 200 pound offensive tackle at that. He’s never actually been in uniform on a baseball field when professional baseball players are playing – never. I’m sure he learned alot about contracts and such sitting on his daddy’s knee. And I’m also positive that his father was instrumental in getting him his first position with the Indians. I wouldn’t hold that agains him. What I – and the Dolans too, I suspect – will hold against him is the worst record in the American League. No amount of spin is going to change that.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 12, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oops, forgot about the Orioles – so we’re the second worst record in the AL.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 12, 2009 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

You just wasted a lot of typing, and I’m tired of going in circles with you. You assume everything I post is a defense of Shapiro, when I just spent 3000 words critiquing his approach.

I wasn’t defending Shapiro, I was just remarking on what a dumb comment you made about not being able to spot Bob Feller. It is not only possible that Shapiro has produced disappointing teams and you have made a lot of dumb comments at the same time, it is self-evident.

What I meant was the frontiers of being able to find and identify raw ability, and I certainly was not presuming that the Indians are thre. Again, READ THE ENTIRE PRECEDING ARTICLE.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Let’s get to the point and forgoe the personal barbs. One: you said up thread that it will take “five or six years” to determine if Shapiro has adequately address the drafting issues. He doesn’t have that much time – one, two years tops. And I don’t give a damn what Dolan says publicly. Didn’t Shapiro give Wedge a similar “vote of confidence” just earlier this year? You know how much that’s worth.

And two: you say that Shapiro’s a " is a baseball guy through and through". This maybe true also. And he may in fact know more about baseball than anyone on this site. That’s not my point either. My point is this: Shapiro does not have the talent to lead this club to perennial contention. There may not be anyone on this planet who can do that. But that doesn’t mean we should stop looking.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 13, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

I won’t argue how long Shapiro has, because I just don’t know.

When you hire a new drafting guy, you don’t see results at the big-league for five years or so. Brad Grant was promoted to run the draft two years ago, so we have some very early indications but certainly nothing concrete. Mirabelli still supervises all amateur scouting, including the draft, and may be more directly involved with international scouting.

So it may be the case that Shapiro only has one or two years to show results from these changes (and non-changes), but it’s also the case that that’s not enough time. So where we can agree, perhaps, is that a judgment may well be made on Shapiro before we really know how effective his later decisions were, just as Hank Peters was no longer with the team by the time we realized how many monster hitters he’d drafted.

Re: whether Shapiro has the talent, this is precisely what I am questioning in the article. I don’t think it’s an open-and-shut case by any means, but I do think it’s a reasonable position to take that he doesn’t, and any position, pro or con, on the subject is going to be highly speculative. So I guess, bottom line, I won’t argue with you. I think I laid out some pretty strong arguments both for and against, and that’s about as far as this discussion can go, I think.

by Jay on Oct 13, 2009 5:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why does it matter if Shapiro played any sport at any time? That has absolutely no bearing on his ability to do his job.

by Brad D on Oct 12, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

It has a bearing on the perceptions necessary to his job.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Really? You think a man who has spent his entire life around sport is rendered incapable of making a decision based on information he has been given by others because he only ever played at the college level? That’s ridiculous. He makes decisions on the franchise level, he’s not the pitching coach. This might be the most baseless critique of Shapiro that I have ever read.

by Brad D on Oct 12, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve asked Chuck many, many times why he thinks that only former baseball players can make intelligent judgements about the quality of baseball players and he’s never given me a response. That was his entire argument why Ken Tremendous and the other FJM guys know less about evaluating baseball players than Joe Morgan does — because they never stood in a batter’s box and faced a 99-mph heater. He seems to think that the ability to play baseball at a very high level is a prerequisite for being a successful GM of a team, even though there are many examples to the contrary. I repeatedly asked him how Theo Epstein and other GM’s who never played baseball can be so successful but he ignored my questions (as he always does when he doesn’t have a smart-alek answer).

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

See Brad you’re putting words in my mouth and ignoring any possible subtlety. I never said “only former baseball players can make intelligent judgments about the quality of baseball players”. That’s not what I think at all. Here’s my view: former baseball players are more likely to have a more balanced view of a players potential than non-baseball players. That doesn’t mean that a former players view is infallible or that a non-players view is worthless. Bill Veeck never played pro-ball and neither did Hank Peters. Both were pretty good judges of baseball talent in my opinion.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 13, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Here’s my view: former baseball players are more likely to have a more balanced view of a players potential than non-baseball players.

Here’s my view: Brad is frustrated because you don’t support your argument with evidence, choosing rather to just continue to restate it as though it is self-evident.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 13, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Did I ever say it was self-evident? Don’t think I did. Here try this, every time you read one of my posts at this at the bottom: In mauichuck’s opinion. How’s that?

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 13, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

There’s not much subtlety when you repeat over and over again that a person, whoever they are, can’t possible know more about evaluating baseball players than Joe Morgan because “they never stood in the batter’s box and faced a 99-mph fastball”. That was your entire argument.

former baseball players are more likely to have a more balanced view of a players potential than non-baseball players.

What does that even mean? What’s a “more balanced view” of a player’s potential?

Really, if you use Joe Morgan as your benchpoint for former players then you’re going to lose every time. This is the guy who wrote in a book about baseball that a pitcher’s W-L record is the best way to evaluate his performance. You don’t have to be Billy Beane or Bill James to know that’s simply moronic. Of course, many former players are very good at evaluating talent. I never said otherwise. But you can’t always assume that a guy who played pro ball will automatically know more about baseball than a guy who didn’t play pro ball. That’s all I’m saying.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 13, 2009 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

But you can’t always assume that a guy who played pro ball will automatically know more about baseball than a guy who didn’t play pro ball.

The subtlety part. He’s not saying that. He’s saying likelihood. Look at these terms: “can’t possibly,” “always” – no one is throwing these around.

by joeee on Oct 13, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve been listening to this line from Chuck for a couple years; he doesn’t leave any room for subtlety. He throws around blatant generalizations that have no factual basis all the time.

And I think it’s humerous that someone who constantly makes baseless claims in his comments whenever it suits his point is trying to correct me on my comments. But, whatever — keep up the hypocracy.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 13, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brad. Fact of the matter: you mis-characterize Chuck’s argument when you start shrieking about “a person, whoever they are, can’t possible know more about evaluating baseball players than Joe Morgan because ‘they never stood in the batter’s box and faced a 99-mph fastball’.”

Remarks like “can’t possible” make me go from completely agreeing with you to questioning whether you understood his point in the first place.

by joeee on Oct 13, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Shapiro is such an extraordinary judge of talent why don’t the Indians have a better pitching staff? I think there was a time early on when the stats guys ascended to the throne, and they looked at a bunch of hicks (Cam Bonifay signing Jason Kendall to a six-year deal) and figured it would be pretty easy to gain an advantage over the buffoons by applying various quantitative metrics. There were initial gains, but they have sometimes proved illusory. We were told these old-school scout-type guys were a thing of the past and we were now living in a new paradigm. A new way of thinking, where the old rules no longer apply.

I don’t have to point out the folly of thinking that old rules no longer apply (tech boom in mid-1990s, real estate bubble), but we have since come to recognize the value of a balanced approach. I’m not sure Shapiro was an early adapter to this dialectic. Maybe he was dismissive of such old-school valuations, thinking he had discovered a new way to look at baseball. Maybe he over-relied on his methods (hubristically). And that may be because he never played the game. Epstein didn’t either, but he has a few successes to point to.

For the most part, I think experience playing the game makes for better managers and GMs.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

We were told these old-school scout-type guys were a thing of the past and we were now living in a new paradigm. A new way of thinking, where the old rules no longer apply.

I’m sorry, but this is simply not true. We’ve discussed this many times on this site — the idea that Billy Beane and other “stat-savvy” GM’s wanted to get rid of scouts is just simply false. They wanted to use statistics to enhance their information, and they used more than just scouts to evaluate players, but that doesn’t mean they tried to get rid of scouts entirely. No GM would try to run an organization without scouts.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brad, scouts=idiots, people who look at batting average. Such people, old crackers who chewed tobacco, were being supplanted by guys with degrees in statistics.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again, this is pure flame-baiting.

It’s beneath you.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

All right, I desist. No one suggested Billy Beane wanted to get rid of scouts. He just wanted to ignore them because he thought he had discovered a better method.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again, no. Have you actually read Moneyball or are you just going by what you heard from other people?

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, Brad. I read it. I liked the fact that Beane couldn’t bear to watch the games and would ride the exercise bike and go out to the parking lot when the A’s were playing.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well then you should know that he didn’t completely ignore scouts. Just because you also use statistical analysis when evaluating players doesn’t mean you ignore all scouting reports. There are many ways to evaluate a player, after all. Any GM who limits himself to just one area and excludes another — be it scouting, stats, or whatever — is an idiot.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I won’t argue that Beane in many ways suggested that the scouts could be ignored. But this discussion isn’t about Beane — until you were forced to pivot to Beane because your Shapiro argument was hopeless — and frankly, it isn’t about whatever axe you and Chuck find it necessary to grind.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Shapiro is such an extraordinary judge of talent why don’t the Indians have a better pitching staff?

The argument is not that Shapiro is or isn’t a great judge of talent, it’s whether past playing experience is a part of that equation. Even if Shapiro can’t judge talent, it doesn’t mean that deficiency is a product of his having not played.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 12, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes, but if he did, he may have been able to tell if a old schooler was handing him the goods or a piece of crap.

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Oct 12, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

This statement is pure speculation with absolute no basis in fact, and is therefore rhetorically irrelevant.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 12, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec for reccing “Occam, bitches.”

Want out of Cleveland? Easy - mess with LeBron's entourage.

by woodsmeister on Oct 12, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

How many exec of the year awards did Billy Evans win? (He was the first to be called a general manager, 1927 Indians.) Citing the Executive of the Year Award strikes me as silly.

“A legit baseball professional.” Yes, sure Shapiro is. Bill Veeck was also a legit baseball professional. Chuck said:

But he’s not a baseball guy, he’s more of a sports franchise manager and much more adept at handling the business/contract aspects of the game than the baseball part.

I’m not sure I believe this, but it’s worth considering as a possibility. Shapiro’s reliance on method, on system, has helped the franchise tremendously. But I’m not sure his system makes sense from a baseball (not franchise) perspective. On the field, I mean.

I don’t know if the razor works better with your plausible reason (rich teams picked up on the method) or mine (the method wasn’t as good as it seemed). But at least we agree the paradigm has been challenged.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s quite clear that teams that were willing to execute analytical findings with a lot of discipline achieved substantial edges, as long as their scouting didn’t totally collapse.

It is a plain fact that the Yankees and Red Sox are knee-deep in this stuff. I can’t speak with as much clarity on the NL powerhouses, but this is just one more reason the NL can’t keep up with the AL.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s quite clear that teams that were willing to execute analytical findings with a lot of discipline achieved substantial edges, as long as their scouting didn’t totally collapse.

Exactly. I think the Indians’ under Shapiro took their eye off the ball in terms of scouting in their reliance on analysis.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is just ask likely and I’m guessing much more probable that they have just made some poor decisions on the scouting side instead of ignoring it. I mean, guys like Carmona would have to be evidence that the Indians haven’t simply been shevling scouting. Latin American signings have to be based purely on scouting, right?

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 13, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes. The Tribe’s Venezuela scout, Henri Centeno, died in a car accident in January:

“Every player we’ve signed out of Venezuela in the last 10 years, Henri has had a significant role in,” said Mirabelli.

by odradek on Oct 13, 2009 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Henri wasn’t the scout actually, from stories about the accident he was more the coordinator of scouting information in Venezuela. It sounded like he was the contact between the team and local scouts.

by APV on Oct 13, 2009 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

The rest of the article cited above said Centeno actually found many of the players but allowed the scouts to sign and take credit for them.

by odradek on Oct 13, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is my view. The Indians have talked a lot about the way they build up and emphasize scouting as part of their overall operation. I’m pretty sure that they are dead serious about it, I’m not at all sure they are doing it well.

Carmona was signed nine years ago.

by Jay on Oct 13, 2009 5:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t think it was that long ago, but I’m glad my point was clear enough even though I threw out a shoddy reference.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 13, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

It wasn’t a shoddy reference, I just thought I’d shade the context a bit.

by Jay on Oct 13, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

If nothing else, the next guy will have a lot of artillery support for his own kooky schemes. “What do you mean, I can’t start Santana in right? You’re telling me he’ll be worse than Garko out there?”

by fleerdon on Oct 13, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hopefully, he’ll be a manager sans kooky schemes.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 13, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Garko in the outfield was where Wedge lost me. That Shapiro just let him do it is certainly pause-worthy..

by stuart dean on Oct 13, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who knows… without Shapiro, Wedge may have trotted him out there 140 times.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 13, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

This brings up a facet of the Shapiro-led organization that I don’t recall seeing mentioned yet. It seems to me that with Wedge/Shapiro in charge, they focused on one thing that was a hindrance (or didn’t work) the previous year, but took it too far. Garko OF is a great example. At some point, they looked and said “we need to have our guys be more flexible in the positions they play in the field.” So they went out and got DeRo (a super-utility guy), had Garko ply his trade in the OF, they knew they had AsCab to play SS/2B, fell in love with Carroll, then later in the year Giminez. The point being, they took it too far and possibly lost sight of the real focus – put your best 9 on the field to win the $*&) game.

That was Wedge. Shapiro? It’s just my view, but it looks like he felt like he got burned so bad on high-ceiling arms that he shied away from them in the draft. Denham, JD Martin, et al. were such a terrible haul in ‘01, and having the injury problems with Miller (’03), they haven’t drafted a HS arm in the first round at any other point in any other draft. And it’s not like there weren’t those high-ceiling guys available. The point is, I think they got burned on high-ceiling HS arms that they decided they just won’t draft HS arms in the first round. As a result, they don’t have any top-notch pitching prospects (drafted) in the system.

Anyone else remember how they were focused on bunting for an entire off-season and ST? They couldn’t do it at the end of the year (’03 maybe?) and spent so much time focused on bunting, that they overlooked other parts of the game that they needed to work on.

by lenred on Oct 14, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

You might be thinking of the end of 2005.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 14, 2009 5:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

And that may be because he never played the game. Epstein didn’t either, but he has a few successes to point to.

So if you never played the game, but took the job as GM of the second richest team in the game, that’s fine. Are we seeing any sort of logical disconnect here? Shapiro was twice the GM of the year, I’d call those successes. Of course, he never played, so that doesn’t count.


For the most part, I think experience playing the game makes for better managers and GMs.

Can you offer any sort of proof of this? Maybe for managers it does, but I daresay there is no correlation for FO positions. Who do you consider a good GM? Cashman, Epstein, Shapiro, Zduriencek, Huntington, Smith, Daniels? Who? None of that list played.

As a matter of fact, only five GM’s played in the MLB. (One of those being Billy Beane, of whom you are no big fan). Clearly, if former players had some special insight in running a team, more of them would be doing it. Owners want to win, they need the best personnel to do that, they hire those people, only five of them are former players. It’s pretty cut and dried. The GM is a manager, not a front line talent evaluator/handler.

by Brad D on Oct 12, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t say you had to play in the bigs. And Beane is one of my favorites, because he isn’t cut and dry.

All things being equal, more successful GMs played than did not.

Zduriencek played for the Appleton Foxes. Neil Huntngton was an All-America first baseman at Amherst. Cashman never played, apparently. Nor Jon Daniels.

My favorite all-time GM is Walter Alston. He struck out on three pitches in his only major-league at-bat.

I agree a GM is a manager, not a front-line talent evaluator, Yet a hubristic GM can dismiss the evaluations of those he views as benighted.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

All things being equal, more successful GMs played than did not.

Sure, in the past. Decades ago all front office people were former players — there weren’t any other options. But those times have changed. If you look over the past 20 years you’ll see that there were just as many successful GM’s who didn’t play than did play.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you have to exlude a hundred years of baseball history to make your point…

I’ll add Charles Comiskey, Branch Rickey and Gabe Paul (batboy for the AAA Rochester Tribe in 1910) to GMs who could tell an inshoot from an outshoot.

Plenty of great players couldn’t manage: Ty Cobb, Pete Rose, Bill Gibson. That doesn’t mean baseball experience is a detriment.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ll add Charles Comiskey, Branch Rickey and Gabe Paul (batboy for the AAA Rochester Tribe in 1910) to GMs who could tell an inshoot from an outshoot.

This would imply that you think GMs who didn’t play don’t understand the basic mechanics of the game. Surely you don’t actually believe that.

Right?

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 13, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right. I don’t believe you have to play the game. Just that such experience is not a hindrance. Chuck has been a little more forceful on this point, with his Joe Morgan defense.

by odradek on Oct 13, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Any defense that involves Joe Morgan as a central witness is an automatic loser.

by Brad D on Oct 13, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just that such experience is not a hindrance.

We agree on this point, but I would add that such experience in and of itself is also not an advantage. The whole discussion seems a little absurd; there are plenty of concerns more legitimate when evaluating a manager or executive than whether or not he ever played. It’s simply not that meaningful.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 13, 2009 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

You could be right about whether it’s legitimate. A few years ago I would have been less inclined to consider it important. Now I’m not so sure.

by odradek on Oct 13, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

What has led to that?

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 13, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just a reassessment of old-school thinking. I am no longer certain the old guys were so out of it. Maybe, as Jay says, it’s because most teams have embraced new science, and the advantages are dispersed. Or perhaps there is some je ne sais quoi to the old ways of thinking that bears further study.

by odradek on Oct 13, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

If the old school were so good, people wouldn’t be looking for a new way of doing things. No one quit the “old school” because they were sick of winning.

by Brad D on Oct 13, 2009 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I didn’t say that was the case. People were quick to reject the past and latch on to a better way. That’s not always a good idea. I’m not so quick to renounce old school now. I think there should be more syncretism between schools.

by odradek on Oct 13, 2009 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just that such experience is not a hindrance.

Once again, I never, ever, ever said this. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I never argued that baseball experience was a hindrance to being a successful GM, only that it is possibly to be a good GM without playing professional baseball. It’s also possible to be a successful GM when you do have experience playing professional baseball. I’ve never said anything to the contrary.

You and Chuck were the ones saying that Shapiro not playing pro baseball was a detriment to his abilities as a GM and I was refuting that point. But I don’t know how you can take that to mean I thought baseball experience was a hindrance to being a good GM. I think you’re just grasping for straws because you’ve run out of arguments.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 13, 2009 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

So were assuming Shapiro played baseball at no time in his youth? Being All American at Amherst gives you some insight into the game that playing in high school doesn’t? At what point do you arbitrarily place the cut off line? College? High school? Little league? This is completely ridiculous. You have little to no leg to stand on and yet you insist on wading into ever deeper water.

by Brad D on Oct 13, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

You cited GMs who didn’t play. In 44 plate appearances over two seasons in A ball, Jack Zduriencik hit .068/.089/.068.

I could list 50 GMs who played, but it wouldn’t prove anything. To cite GMs who didn’t play simply proves you don’t have to play to be a general manager. No one is arguing that point.

by odradek on Oct 13, 2009 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

How did he last parts of two seasons with that line?

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 13, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

He must have played only when it snowed. Maybe he was the best snow infielder the Foxes had.

by odradek on Oct 13, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

he had the finest beard you could ever dream of.

You are reading my signature.

by rolub on Oct 13, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

They chalked it up to SSS, most likely.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 13, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shapiro was twice the GM of the year

I love how this is repeatedly brought up as evidence that Shapiro’s a great baseball GM. Wasn’t Wedge “Manager of the Year”? Didn’t Rafael Palmiro win a 1B Gold Glove and play less than 50 games at that position. What’s next? Silver Sluggers? Rolaids Relief Award winner?

GM of the Year is probably more politically driven than any other award in baseball. All-Star ballotting is no exception.

There should be no annual GM of the Year Award. Instead there should be an award for winning a WS with a payroll in the bottom half of the Major Leagues. Now that would be a real achievement.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 13, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

You realize that different people vote on those awards, right? Again, you make no effort to back any of what you say with evidence. You claim that executive of the year is the most politically driven award in baseball with no support, you can’t just do that and expect no one to call you on it.

by Brad D on Oct 13, 2009 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

You can if you’re Chuck.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 13, 2009 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

OK, then what’s the criteria? A good year? Any stats in here? Where’s the objective evidence? At least if you win a Gold Glove they’ll site your fielding percentage, a Rolaid’s Award, you number of saves, a Sliver Slugger your – oh, my God say it isn’t so! – your BA. What, exactly do the site for your GM of the Year Award?

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 13, 2009 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, he did win 93 and 96 games those years, with one of the smallest payrolls in the game. Other teams also did well, of course, but his peers felt that his team’s success was the most attributable to its GM, moreso than other good teams in those seasons. There are rarely any surprises with this award, it’s usually an up-and-coming team that made a splash with a well respected GM at the helm.

by Jay on Oct 13, 2009 5:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jay answered this already. What I would like is an answer to the baseless claim you made. Is that forthcoming?

by Brad D on Oct 13, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Not to pick on you, fwembt, but can we all consider not putting “gotcha” taglines at the end of our “awesome” posts? It really sounds shrill these days.

by joeee on Oct 13, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I want to know if an answer to my direct question is forthcoming. So no, I’m not going to quit asking other people to engage in reasonable conversation.

by Brad D on Oct 13, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

No, he’s right — asking people to back up their claims is too much. It’s much more fun to just make things up whenever it fits your viewpoint and change topics when you’re confronted with facts which refute your claims. Reasonable conversation is too much to expect from some people.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 13, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is what I’m talking about! So shrill.

Asking people to back up their claims is perfectly reasonable. Asking people to back up their “baseless claim” enters the realm of shrill. “Reasonable conversation” shouldn’t be so syntactically hostile, yo.

by joeee on Oct 13, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m mildly sorry if that offends you but there it no change coming in the foreseeable future. Conversation is occasionally hostile.

by Brad D on Oct 13, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can’t figure out why “syntactically hostile, yo,” is so aesthetically pleasing, but it is.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 13, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love how this is repeatedly brought up as evidence that Shapiro’s a great baseball GM.

There you go again. Nobody has cited it as evidence that he’s a great GM. You are trying to run down the guy as not even being a credible professional, and that’s just ridiculous. The other 29 GMs — including a few former players and many guys with scouting backgrounds — think he’s terrific. That may not make him a great GM, but it at least makes him a competent one.

by Jay on Oct 13, 2009 5:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

The other 29 GMs — including a few former players and many guys with scouting backgrounds — think he’s terrific. That may not make him a great GM, but it at least makes him a competent one.

whoa. . . what? jay, you’re the last guy i want to be arguing with in this thread, because i absolutely loved the piece. but this is just nonsense.

look, we all know that the league generally perceives shapiro to be a good GM. i thought that the point of your piece was to disregard these kinds of perceptions and make judgments based on results, so pointing out the exec of the year awards essentially an argument from authority that gets us nowhere. i think the better argument that mark shapiro is a competent GM comes from his w/l record and the fact that he hasn’t completely run the franchise into the ground—i mean, as you point out, he did build 93- and 95 win teams. there is at least some evidence of competence, unlike say, dayton moore.

i’d also like to point out that brian sabean won the award back in 2002. i mean, should sabean’s detractors constantly have his award thrown up in their faces? at some point that stuff just becomes irrelevant.

If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Oct 13, 2009 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

That has absolutely no bearing on his ability to do his job.

Where’s your support for this statement?

by joeee on Oct 12, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

The fact that there have been many successful GM’s in baseball — and football and basketball — who never played the sport in college or professionally. Theo Epstein has won 2 WS titles in the past 5 years and he never played baseball, for one example. There are many others.

Evaluating baseball talent and playing baseball and two completely seperate talents. The second talent is not a necessary condition to be successful at the first.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your final paragraph is certainly true, but I would listen more to a man who played the game.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Many, many men who played baseball were terrible GM’s, while many, many men who didn’t play the game were great GM’s. You can listen more to a man who played the game but that doesn’t make them a better evaluator of talent. Just like you don’t have to work on the assembly line at Ford or Toyota to become CEO.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

6 of the last 12 championships were won by teams whose GM never played professional baseball:

2004 & 2007 Red Sox – Theo Epstein
2003 Marlins – Larry Beinfest
1998-2000 Yankees – Brian Cashman

That’s just the three I found in a few minutes of research. Many of the other GM’s played minor-league ball for a year or two but never got close to the major leagues.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Many of the other GM’s played minor-league ball for a year or two but never got close to the major leagues.

That is a whole lot different from the guy whose baseball playing days ended in high school or before.

Also! Epstein and Cashman have cash, man.

by joeee on Oct 12, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Still, 50% of the titles were won by GM’s without a pro baseball career, minor or majors. And even if Epstein and Cashman work for big-spending teams that doesn’t mean they aren’t competent executives.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

2006 Walt Jocketty
2002 Tony Reagins
2001 Josh Byrnes
1995 John Schuerholz

none played professionally.

by lenred on Oct 12, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I forgot Jocketty. I don’t think Byrnes was the GM in 2001.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re right. It was Joe Garagiola, Jr. But he was never a player either. His dad was a catcher for 9 years mostly for the Cardinals, back in the 40’s.

by lenred on Oct 14, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

maybe if they did spend time on the assembly line the auto companies would not be in this bad of shape.

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Oct 12, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that’s the problem with the auto companies. Besides, Ford and Toyota (the two I mentioned) aren’t in bad shape at all.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re wrong about Toyota.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 13, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

By this measure one would logically assume that the best players would also make the best managers/coaches. That is clearly not the case.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 12, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

but most have aleast played in AAA,

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Oct 12, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

So?

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 12, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

What people are saying is that the burden of proof is on you guys. If the majority of gms/managers have some professional baseball experience, then you need to prove that it doesn’t matter if you want to vehemently smack down anyone who says pro-ball matters.

by joeee on Oct 12, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

What I’m saying is that playing pro ball does not in any way reflect on your ability to evaluate talent, and I don’t think there is any empirical evidence to the contrary.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 12, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s because there isn’t. Chuck and Odi insist there is. The burden of proof lies on them and, as per the norm, there is none forthcoming.

by Brad D on Oct 12, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hell, boys, this is silly. Do you want me to go back and look at every GM who ever managed and see how many played pro ball? I’m willing to bet a majority did, but that means nothing. That’s simply an expression of a historical condition.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m willing to bet a majority did, but that means nothing. That’s simply an expression of a historical condition.

That contradicts what you said above. You said that you think former players make better GM’s.
  

For the most part, I think experience playing the game makes for better managers and GMs.

You can’t have it both ways. First you argue that being a former ballplayer makes you a better GM then you said it’s just a “historical condition”. As I said before, it was a historical condition for many years, but not any more. The game has changed over the past 20 years — there are just as many new GM’s who haven’t played as those who have. So, yes, over the 100+ years of baseball most front office people were former players but that’s not a requirement now, and it shouldn’t be. And there is no evidence that it makes you a better GM.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

This was simply in response to your argument that more than 50 percent of baseball winners are general-managed by men who didn’t play the game. Ergo, playing the game diminishes one’s chances of winning. This isn’t true at all.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

What’s true is that the whole line of discussion — yours — is silly, and it’s being pursued exclusively in frivolous terms.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

When I point out the folly of others I am being frivolous?

When Shapiro won the Exec of Year Award he was hailed on LGT as a new sort of GM who could run circles around the Cam Bonifays of the world. Maybe that’s still true. But maybe it’s not.

When I inconveniently point out something that was commonly accepted here as fact, I’m silly?

All right, I shut up.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think anyone hailed Shapiro as a new sort of GM. You’re making that up.

Practically every GM in baseball ran circles around Bonifay, so I’m not sure what point you’re even trying to make here.

It was accepted as fact that Shapiro was highly effective because he got good-to-great results with limited resources and was well respected by his peers. The facts supported that view. It was, and is, silly to argue with it.

It’s like saying, since Belle can’t play anymore, that he must have always sucked, even when he was briefly the best hitter in the game. Yes, it’s frivolous. I know what a good point looks like, and I’m not sure you’ve made any.

You and Chuck are just grinding old axes about sabermetrics. You basically haven’t posted anything at all in this thread that was really and truly about the Indians and/or Shapiro.

by Jay on Oct 13, 2009 5:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you wish to insist there never existed at LGT any sort of Greenspanian “irrational exuberance” about Shapiro’s accomplishments—and I can’t be bothered to go back to the end of 2007 and early 2008 to cite examples of such enthusiasms—then I’ll throw in my hand.

Undeniably, Shapiro’s methods garnered some success. More properly, the team had some success. Whether this was attributable to the machinations of the general manager is at present less clear than it seemed to be during the winter of 2007. Shapiro (and his methods) have been called into doubt.

by odradek on Oct 13, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes. By the time you weed out the axe-grinding nonsense from your points and Chuck’s … you end up with essentially the same points I made in the original article.

by Jay on Oct 13, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am glad we agree, then. Ax-grinding aside.

by odradek on Oct 13, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ergo, playing the game diminishes one’s chances of winning.

I never, ever, ever said that. And I never implied that. I have no idea where you would get that from.

I was using the “50% of the winning GM’s” stat to simply show that many executives have been successful without playing the game. I never said, or implied, that not playing baseball increased your chance of success. I don’t know why you would say that, other than trying to change the subject.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

My point here is that baseball did not suddenly enter a new paradigm. Old rules still apply sometimes.

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wouldn’t the numbers of GMs who were former players have more to do with the fact that former players are more willing to make a career out of baseball than nonplayers than whether they are actually more successful?

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 13, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, and they’re more likely to be hired by a former player as well.

by odradek on Oct 13, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

But that has no bearing on skill set, just on majority by default.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 13, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

I showed proof above — 50% of titles in the past 12 years.

Playing baseball and evaluating baseball players are two completely seperate talents and there is absolutely no reason to assume that the first talent is a requirement for the second talent.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, it’s much more than 50% — I missed a few mentioned above.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 12, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is completely, 100% untrue.

by Brad D on Oct 12, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, ants design the best ant farms.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

This figures, from Wikipedia:

The first commercially-sold formicarium was introduced around 1929 and patented in 1931 by Frank Austin, an inventor and professor at the Thayer School of Engineering at Dartmouth College,

by odradek on Oct 12, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

very true. let’s hope so.

by lenred on Oct 11, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

And, despite your disclaimers early in the article, I am still bothered by your summation that Shapiro can be evaluated without comparing him to candidates that would likely replace him. Analysis that lacks an actionable item, seems destined for the rear of the file drawer. And by item, I mean that if we propose to replace Shapiro, we want to bring in someone we have reason to believe is available and displays superior judgement or background or something tangible.

by elsandito on Oct 11, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry you’re bothered by this. I did not prepare this as a study for the Dolans, and I have no expectation for what position it will occupy in any drawer of any file cabinet. It’s public commentary by an outsider. It isn’t a disclaimer to say that we’re less familiar with alternatives to Shapiro than we are with Shapiro himself. With more research I could probably come up with some reasonable candidates, but that was simply beyond the scope of this article.

by Jay on Oct 11, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I didn’t make the basic conclusion clear enough to you. The conclusion is that clearly, other clubs have had far more success evaluating talent than the Indians, and Shapiro is responsible for that, and we have no evidence to suggest that he can fix it. That is not to say that it has been PROVEN that he can’t fix it, only that there is no proof that he has fixed it or can fix it.

by Jay on Oct 11, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Would it be fair to say that there is probably someone in the Twins FO who would be interested in a promotion? The Twins seem to field a competitive team with players they have developed. I’m thinking there must be some kind of process for selecting a replacement GM.
We shouldn’t have to hope that Shapiro will learn to do something he hasn’t done well if someone else is available who already knows that thing. That is, unless Shapiro has other redeeming qualities that we don’t want to lose.

by elsandito on Oct 12, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think you should do a bunch of research on this and submit a FanPost. I’m sorry, but it just doesn’t interest me. Shapiro is not, in fact, going to be fired. I am confident that there are men who could replace him, and possibly someone could exceed him, if he were going to be fired. But he isn’t going to be fired, and figuring out who hypothetically might replace him is an extraordinarily academic exercise.

It was a 12-part series. You’ll forgive us, I hope, if we’re not sorry it’s completed.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

It might be a little premature, but I don’t see Shapiro as GM of the Indians past 2010. If I’m still around, we’ll talk.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Oct 12, 2009 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not that bold of a prediction. Shapiro could easily enter his GM-emeritus status, leaving the reigns to Antonetti.

Now, if you are saying Dolan will force Shapiro out, or that someone besides Antonetti will be taking over, well, that is interesting.

by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 12, 2009 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t see why they’d retain him now just to fire him a year from now, when they’ve already stated publicly that they’re aiming for 2011 and beyond.

by Jay on Oct 12, 2009 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Shapiro would have to quit, which just leads to Antonetti.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 12, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Twins seem to field a competitive team with players they have developed.

What they seem to field, in my view, is a team good enough to steal the division in a down year, but one that’s totally inept against real competition — the Twins’ combined record against the Indians and the Tigers in 2007, the last time this division had several top-flight teams? 10-26. And, I hate to use this logic, but the Twins make a serious dent in the argument that any team can win a World Series if it just gets in — two playoff wins in the last seven years? Two? You say, “The Twins are a good model for the Indians,” and I hear, “That AL Central lamb getting led to the post-season slaughter? That could be us!” Pass.

You want to praise them for finding some good arms, well, great; but let’s not conflate that with enviable success.

And hey, this just in, they kind of suck at fundamentals.

by fleerdon on Oct 13, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I only watched the Twins in the playoffs and that one game playoff this year, and I had never seen so many gaffes from a fundamental perspective.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 13, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

It is true that nearly all of the Twins’ success this decade has been due to good timing — the AL Central was just awful 2002-2004, when they won three straight division titles. Obviously the division didn’t have any good teams this year, either, as the Twins were the only club that scored more runs than it allowed.

The lone exception is the 2006 Twins, which was a genuinely good team that won 96 games. A stellar year from Mauer and Morneau’s dadaist-MVP season powered the Twins to a league-average offense, and they had the best pitching in either league.

by Jay on Oct 13, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

When I feel despair over Carmona, it makes me feel better that I don’t have to feel despair over Francisco Liriano

by APV on Oct 13, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah. Although at least he had garden variety arm problems. Carmona just started sucking for no reason.

by Jay on Oct 13, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

I used the Twins as an example because they operate with a low payroll, hardly ever try to retain players eligible for FA and seem to field talent that they developed. This was in reference to Shapiro’s alleged weaknesses. It’s probable that Shapiro’s team does many things better than the Twins, but my approach emphasized only the weaknesses of the Shapiro team. This is why I made the comment I made. That every executive has strengths and weaknesses and you accept the good with the bad. Wanting to fire people because they have weaknesses is not a productive exercise.

by elsandito on Oct 13, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Almost forgot: Glen Perkins, woooooooooo!

by fleerdon on Oct 13, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Twins are an example of what happens when you have a ridiculous home field advantage and tailor your team to take advantage of it. When they have to play outside on real grass all the time and all their crappy slap-hitting seeing eye singles don’t make it out of the infield, we’ll see whether the Twins management still looks like geniuses for putting that team together on a small payroll.

Want out of Cleveland? Easy - mess with LeBron's entourage.

by woodsmeister on Oct 13, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

If this doesn’t turn out to be true, there’s going to be a lot of upset people around these parts.

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Oct 13, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, I won’t be upset, relatively speaking. I can’t possibly hate them more than I already do. Blue on black, tears on a river, push on a shove, it don’t mean much.

by fleerdon on Oct 13, 2009 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like this post.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 13, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

For the record, I never said that I want to emulate the Twins. I think they’ve failed miserably in some areas of acquiring and playing talent. Crede? Trading for Delmon Young? No thanks to both. They started Brendan Harris 123 times this year. That’s reprehensible.

But they did trade AJ Pierzynski for Liriano and Nathan. They got Craig Breslow off the waiver wire and got a solid year out of him. They drafted serviceable arms in Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Crain.

Again, the point was, they always seem to get good arms. It’s not a stretch to say that the Indians are partially in the condition they are in because of their inability to draft quality arms.

by lenred on Oct 14, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

They got Craig Breslow off the waiverwedge won’t use this guy wire and got a solid year out of him.

fixed

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 14, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder, sometimes, if the Twins haven’t pursued this arms-first strategy to the exclusion of developing position-player depth and quality. If the division isn’t too strong, and if they can cobble together a lineup, they’ve got a team, but all I really see is that they know how to play .520 baseball.

Like I said, if I were going to put together a case that that there is, in fact, a difference between getting into the playoffs and having any chance of advancing through them, the Twins are exhibit A.

Also! Nick Punto.

by fleerdon on Oct 14, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

you can’t fault him for hustling. he plays the game the right way. except when it is the wrong way, like when he hustles too much.

by Brick. on Oct 14, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

pitching and defense wins championships.

At least, that’s what I keep hearing.

by lenred on Oct 14, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that is a old school saying?

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Oct 16, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I guess the wedge-school saying is “Jamey Carroll and Chris Gimenez win championships”?

by lenred on Oct 18, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

This series has been among the best writing this site has ever done.

The once and future

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Oct 11, 2009 10:12 PM EDT reply actions  

This thread has some of the worst comments this site has ever had. Myself included, probably.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 13, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Long threads like this I end up only reading Jay’s comments and those to which he’s responding.

by Matt in LA on Oct 13, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ass kisser.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 13, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

No kidding. Also, if that’s the case, why did he read and respond to this string of comments?

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Oct 14, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s worth noting that I wrote this days before that yawn-inducing you-know-what contest blew up.

The once and future

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Oct 16, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice writeup, and perusing some of the comments has been very interesting as well.

I have to say that its hard giving Shap a standalone critique without considering Eric Wedge, whom he essentially joined his fortunes to to a degree I’d never seen before. That’s what I think his biggest mistake was, a real headscratcher in my opinion, hiring rookie Wedge as the youngest manager in the bigs and giving him peer status from the outset in all decisionmaking.

I guess it points to the corporate idealism that has been an abstract strength but a working weakness – ideas over reaIity is rarely a good day to day strategy. I don’t think he’ll ever do that again – unlike Wedge, Shap adapts fairly quickly, but I think his chosen inability to override on roster decisions, playing time, and general accountability, ended up working against the goal of what he’s been trying to accomplish.

A subjective take of course – and there were positives about the relationship as well – but to me the resulting dynamics in the running of the major league club had a built-in dysfunctionality that contributed a good deal to the fiasco of ’09.

That said, I think the organization has on the whole improved under Shap’s reign – whether that means anything has yet to be shown. You can applaud process, and cite crapshoots, but there is a tally being kept.

by mcrose on Oct 13, 2009 12:11 AM EDT reply actions  

It will be very interesting to see how Shapiro interacts with a new skipper, probably one from outside the organization.

I’m curious to know if the Dolans specified that they wanted to go outside the org to not repeat the Shapiro/Wedge relationship.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 13, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Somewhere there is a managerial candidate smiling because he has 2 favorite players who he’d like to get jobs for too.

Resident Take the Football References One Step Too Far Guy

by westbrook on Oct 13, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I’m sure the Dolans had a few pointed things to say to Shap during the most recent review.

by mcrose on Oct 13, 2009 10:28 AM EDT reply actions  

wups. meant as reply to emd2k3 above.

by mcrose on Oct 13, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

You know, I came across this 2007 Guthrie thread. It’s interesting to see where we’re at today. Some excerpts:\

would you rather be the orioles who have the ‘luxury’ of seeing if they can develop a pitcher at the major leauge level or the indians who can’t ‘wait and see’ because they have to get busy competing for a championship this year?

Cleveland’s good and the farm is stocked. Guthrie wasn’t part of the future for the Indians.

Is it just me or does this beg the question whether the pitching coaches throughout the system may need to be looked at a little more closely? The talent evaluation guys have to be happy though.

I am not saying that judging this is easy only that the perception is growing that we are very poor at developing our players at the major league level.

While I agree the FO has not done an awesome job with some of out upper level prospects, they have been pretty good overall. The numbers speak for them (Vic, Grady, Jhonny, CC, Jake, Raffy, Garko).

Phillips and Guthrie’s upsides are such that we will never completely kick ourselves for giving up on them. They’re just good enough. Marte, contrastingly, has so much talent that giving up on him would be managerial blunder of epic proportions.

by fleerdon on Oct 13, 2009 10:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Marte, contrastingly, has so much talent that giving up on him would be managerial blunder of epic proportions.

So long, King Grinder.

Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!

by USSChoo on Oct 13, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s too bad Sabean was extended. Maybe he could be the guy sitting with Shapiro and picking out pitchers to acquire. Don’t every let him chime in on a hitter, of course.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 13, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

ever, not every. God, Tyler, even if it’s just a response to one of your comments.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 13, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ll probably have a post (or a few posts) on a couple of points in the next week, but I’ve been spending some time compiling Indians farm system data. The Indians currently have a lot of interesting pitching arms. If quantity leads to quality, good things might lie ahead. Here’s to hoping we’ve got good pitching instructional support throughout the system…

by APV on Oct 14, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Haven’t been around, but this popped up on the Kindle (these post look great on the kindle, but there’s no comments, so whatever.) I am in no way up to date on what has been said around here. I haven’t even read the 600 comments here.

Anyway,

1. Great read, and great case.

2. Of course, the case for firing is not about who was responsible, but how we think each person will go doing forward. As for fixing this, I’m not sure which way Shapiro’s style cuts. Yes, he’s committed to a certain process. But on the other hand, he (of all people/fans/gms) is analyzing this as much as we are. He knows it has to be better.

3. I’ve made my case before, but in all of these posts, my response is that this mess is less the result of the failures of Dellucci/Brown/Sowers/Drennan/etc and more the result of the failures of Victor/Grady/Jake/Travis/Raffy/Fausto/Kerry/Jhonny/etc. Again, I’ve said my piece before, sometimes in embarrassing fashion.

4. Not going to lie, this is pretty depressing. As in “why am I following this? Really, this is one of my passions? Pain?” We’re figuring out a train wreck, with no suggestion of why the future might be better. Do we gamble with a random “baseball man” next time? What are the odds that it will work out better, considering how most teams with our payroll do?

5. Back to #1. I said great read, but come on, this was fantastic. Well presented, engaging, thorough, well supported, empassioned and logical. Bravo.

by dgcambridge on Oct 15, 2009 9:03 PM EDT reply actions  

We’re figuring out a train wreck, with no suggestion of why the future might be better. Do we gamble with a random "baseball man" next time? What are the odds that it will work out better, considering how most teams with our payroll do?

This is great irony? of the game. For all we know, this team could win 85-90 games next year. The likelihood is that they won’t, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 16, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Depends on how generously you define the possible.

by odradek on Oct 16, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

It certainly does.

by Jay on Oct 17, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t think they’d lose 97 games this year, so who knows.

Wait 'til next millennium!

by emd2k3 on Oct 19, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jay, this thought just occurred to me this morning. Perhaps Shapiro’s belief over the past few years was that Wedge was his “old baseball mind” personnel guy and that’s why Wedge had such a large role in personnel decisions? Perhaps Farrell and Huntington left not only because of Antonetti’s position as the eventual successor but also because they disagreed with Wedge and Shapiro kept listening to Wedge?

Relatedly, it seems to me that the hiring of a new manager is likely to signal some of the Indians intentions about the direction of the franchise going forward. Viewed in that light, the differences between Bobby Valentine and Manny Acta are pretty striking, right? I’m making the assumption here that Valentine’s far less familiar with stats than Acta.

by NickFantana on Oct 20, 2009 9:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Interesting, but let’s take it over to the new manager discussions. This thread is too big.

by Jay on Oct 20, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

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