News and Notes
by Ryan on Nov 14, 2009 9:01 AM EST
in News
48 comments
Like last year, the Indians made most of their major moves during the season, not after it. Still, there are some moves left to made. First, there's the utility infielder spot...
Would Cleveland Indians be "high-profile" enough for Omar Vizquel to return? | cleveland.com
Bringing Omar! back to be a backup infielder does make some sense. There will be a small but tangible PR boost from the signing, and going on 43, Vizquel can still play decent defense. Bringing Jamey Carroll back would be better move, but he'll be more difficult to sign.
Tribe could use Vizquel's services again | indians.com
Another Omar! article, this time from Anthony Castrovince. He mentions a possible strategic downside to having Vizquel on ths club:
For one, it's expected that if the Indians do decide to pursue a veteran utility player in free agency, they'll need him to spell Valbuena at second base against left-handed pitching, and that's not exactly Vizquel's area of expertise. The switch-hitter batted .485 in just 35 plate appearances against lefties in '09, but he's a career .255 hitter against left-handers.
I'd like to see Valbuena get some at-bats against left-handers next year. He's only had 48 career plate appearances against southpaws, so that's not much to go on. And the Indians will be looking at Jason Donald as well, so I don't think this should prevent the Indians from bringing in Vizquel.
The major problem is his age. He's going to be 43 in April, and as well as he's kept in shape over the years, at some point he's going to break down.
Documentary makes way for the Choo Choo train | 아시아경제
Korean network MBC has produced a documentary about Shin-Soo Choo titled "Choo Shin-Soo, Hitting Major League At Last". This is a Q&A (in English) with Kim Sae-byul, the producer of the program. A sample:
Q: In that sense, you might need to put in some explanation for words such as "five-tool player" that the team’s coaching staff mentions.
Kim: I’m going to put them in subtitles. Because I didn’t really know what it meant. I first heard about the term "five-tool" when I was making this program. We are going to put in subtitles for everything the interviewee says and also for terminology that might need explaining. And we are going to put in all the dates and locations for footage of the games.
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I guess I don’t hate the idea of bringing Vizquel back in that role; if only for the all Venezuelan middle-infield dynamic from a general coolness standpoint. Maybe a tangible benefit of mentoring there.
Still have a hard time thinking we should spend anything over the minimum for the backup middle infield spot though and I wonder if he’d be a distraction more than anything else. Maybe if he’s unsigned in late January and Donald’s health issues persist it could become more of a necessary fit.
My biggest lament right now is how I’m just realizing how brutal the trade market must be for Peralta. Feliz, DeRosa, Figgins all available and theoretically better options on the FA scene and it appears Dan Uggla could be had and shifted to 3B as well.
by cheech99 on Nov 14, 2009 11:43 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
agree re: mentoring. i know this is something a lot of people will dismiss, but omar has been an above-average defensive SS into his early 40s. think he might know a little something about positioning and other mental aspects of playing in the middle infield?
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Nov 14, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whether he knows something that applies to infielders generally or only to his own abilities and style of play, is one question.
Whether he’s able to be a good mentor is another thing.
Whether Asdrubal really would benefit from his help is yet another thing.
No reason to think he knows much about any position but shortstop.
by Jay on Nov 14, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The thought was that the Rangers signed him to mentor Elvis Andrus so there’s at least the idea out there that he is thought of being capable of mentoring a player and imparting advice, etc. to him.
by hans on Nov 14, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That was claimed, but I never heard anything specific to the effect that he actually did anything.
by Jay on Nov 14, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I see nothing in either link to suggest that Omar is a good mentor or coach.
I see that Omar has a high opinion of himself, and Elvis says Omar is his idol.
Those are not remotely the same things.
by Jay on Nov 14, 2009 11:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ok, you asked for evidence to the effect that omar actually did mentor andrus.
both links provided some evidence to that effect. . . i mean, i’m not sure what you expect exactly. even if omar was a fantastic tutor for andrus, i wouldn’t expect that type of thing to get a ton of coverage in the press, particularly with andrus’ language barrier.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Nov 15, 2009 12:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I agree with this (surprisingly right?), its not like we would expect this to be documented, I think the take away from this is that it is “thought” that Omar is someone that can mentor, I mean he’s giving his opinion on players as if it matters and that to me means he considers it important and I would believe that he considers it important because the team that signed him considers his opinion important.
by hans on Nov 15, 2009 3:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What I’m looking for is someone talking about what a good mentor Omar is — other than Omar — in some kind of non-perfunctory way. We can find those quotes about a lot of people. The fact they don’t exist doesn’t mean that Omar isn’t a good mentor, but I start off with the assumption that he isn’t, based on his personality.
by Jay on Nov 15, 2009 8:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Still, its hard to objectively prove that someone is a good mentor. At best you might be able to provide some sort of correlative data or BS rationalization
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Nov 15, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not looking to prove it objectively. I’m looking for any quote from someone other than Omar that doesn’t sound perfunctory.
I’m saying, there isn’t even a prima facie case here. There’s just “I liked when Omar was a player here, I’d like him to be a mentor.” I can think of a few guys I wish were my mentors, but trust me, idols are not mentors by a long shot.
by Jay on Nov 15, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you really like that term, don’t you? haha. to be fair, it is a handy concept.
i wouldn’t say that i’ve made a prima facie showing that omar is a good mentor. i’d say that i’ve set forth more than a scintilla of evidence—after all, in the web chat link, andrus himself says that omar has been a good mentor for him (near the bottom of the page). i’d say that the quotes, taken together, could lead a reasonable person to believe that omar has been mentoring andrus—keeping up with the legal terminology, i think i’d have to deny your motion for summary judgment here.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Nov 16, 2009 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you admit that you haven’t made a prima facie case, then you have already lost on summary judgment.
by Jay on Nov 16, 2009 7:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is not really correct
to win on summary judgment (at least under the federal rules), all you need to do is create an issue of material fact that has to be resolved by a trial. if you’re “moving” for summary judgment on the issue as to whether or not omar is a good mentor, the court would have to conclude that, even viewing the evidence i presented in a light most favorable to my position, there is no way a reasonable person could believe omar is a good mentor.
since i brought up quotes from andrus himself crediting omar, i can’t see that happening.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Nov 16, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
actually, maybe you’re right (about prima facie/SJ, not omar). damn man, when did you take civil procedure?
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Nov 16, 2009 8:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Clerked for my dad in the late ’80s on some discrimination lawsuits. Surviving summary judgment was synonymous with getting a decent settlement offer. Actually learned a lot about statistical analysis from that same experience.
by Jay on Nov 16, 2009 9:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why would he have been put in that position if he wasn’t thought of as a good mentor? Did Texas go out to find a “bad” mentor for Elvis?
- I don’t claim to know, but I’m assuming that Texas thought he was enough so to bring him in. Whether or not he turned out to be any good at being a mentor? I don’t know, and I’d follow your line that there sure isn’t alot out there saying that he was a substantial part in Elvis’ development.
by hans on Nov 16, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Rangers’ need and desire for Andrus to have a mentor was probably a PR fiction. When you’re bringing in a 42-year-old legend as a backup while giving the starting job to a possibly underripe 20-year-old, you have to say things like this.
by Jay on Nov 16, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t buy this at all, since when do you have to “say things like this”? Why say anything at all, or more importantly why not bring in a player that would likely be a better productive player than Omar to be a back-up, particularly if you thought he would be a negative impact on the development of the prized player (elvis andrus). I doesn’t make sense to bring in someone that would have a negative impact on the more valuable player in the long run.
And a PR fiction? why? I don’t see it that way anymore than if the Indians brought in Omar to be a mentor for Asdrubal being a PR fiction this year, it would only be because they thought he would be a good influence on the player, there are many other options that would a.) have better upside than a forty some old player and b.) have the likelihood to be a better player in the utility role if said 40 year old was not considered a good personality.
by hans on Nov 19, 2009 2:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I never said he would be a detriment to Andrus.
Why not bring in a more productive player? Money. Was there a better player than Omar who was willing to come in on a minor league deal? I don’t think so.
I just think when you put those two players on a roster together, there’s an expectation that the one is supposed to mentor the other, and if you don’t confirm that, then it’s going to be seen as a slight.
by Jay on Nov 19, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Andrus has gotten plenty of press this season, and writers love to write about Vizquel. The story writes itself, if there’s anything to it (and even if there isn’t).
If people around the team felt that having Vizquel around had actually made a significant difference in Andrus’ development, there’d be multiple stories about it.
by Jay on Nov 15, 2009 8:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whether Asdrubal really would benefit from his help is yet another thing.
With the adoration and idolization that Asdrubal has towards Omar, I think it might actually be better off keeping it at that.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
by USSChoo on Nov 15, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But who would wear #13??
Wait 'til next millennium!
by emd2k3 on Nov 18, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Asdrubal. Reread my comment, I’m not advocating for Omar to be here.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
by USSChoo on Nov 18, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Still have a hard time thinking we should spend anything over the minimum for the backup middle infield spot though and I wonder if he’d be a distraction more than anything else.
As long as it’s understood that he’s coming in to be a backup and nothing more, I don’t see him being a distraction.
by Ryan on Nov 14, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, it’ll be a huge distraction over on cleveland.com.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Nov 14, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm deleting my fanshot and putting this here.
Does Andy Marte Play For the Dolphins?
Tony Sparano saw to that this week by, let’s say, suggesting players stop playing dominoes in the locker room and get their minds strictly on football.
Sparano insists he didn’t force the players to end the dominoes games, which often got fairly loud.
Finally convinced my dad that Jeter is immensely hatable.
by westbrook on Nov 14, 2009 12:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I hope we do not sign any FA save the money for 2011.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Nov 14, 2009 12:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
If it’s a one year deal, we would.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Nov 15, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How many tickets is Omar worth? I understand it is silly to spend money on a bench player. However, we might just need some Venezualan leadership that VMart provided. I would love to see this move. What am I saying… I sound like a cleveland.com blogger.
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
by jerseywahoo on Nov 14, 2009 3:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Do we need leadership for our Venezuelans, or leadership from a Venezuelan?
Venezuelans currently on the roster: Cabrera, Valbuena, Carrasco.
Now here’s something odd. We don’t have a single Latino outfielder on our 40-man roster, nor a single legitimate prospect of that description, anywhere in the system.
by Jay on Nov 14, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think it’s going to mean a whole lot at the box office, but it would be a nice bit of goodwill to the fanbase.
by Ryan on Nov 14, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s the goodwill of bringing back Kenny in ’07, but without hardly any of the actual benefits. Even if it did spark ticket sales, two weeks of consistently mediocre play would plummet them right back down.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
by USSChoo on Nov 15, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t really care about Vizquel’s leadership ability or his mentoring of anyone in particular. While I think it’s true that ultimately we’re rooting for laundry and not players, there are definitely players I enjoyed watch wear that laundry more than others. If Omar isn’t the most enjoyable player in my lifetime to play for the Tribe, then he’s certainly in the conversation, at least to my mind.
I have no illusions that Omar will somehow turn 2010 around for us. If we are going to compete next year, it’s going to be because young guys develop quickly, our pitching solidifies, and our bullpen gets it together, or something along those lines. It sure isn’t going to ride on who the Tribe signs as a utility infielder.
Omar isn’t going to sell extra tickets in any appreciable quantity; even I, a huge fan, won’t be any more likely to go see a game. If I’m in Cleveland and the Tribe is there, I’ll be at the park regardless of who’s on the roster. There won’t be a run on 13 jerseys. He isn’t going to teach Jhonny to be a world class defensive third baseman.
But if he can be signed for a reasonable contract and knows that his role is going to be a utility infielder, then I can’t see a downside. You don’t have to give away at-bats for any of our infielders; if Valbuena needs to start hitting lefties, then let Omar ride the bench. If Asdrubal is redhot and Omar hasn’t played in two weeks, then who cares if it’s two weeks and one day. But unless Valbuena, Cabrera, and Peralta all plan on playing for 162 games, then there isn’t a player in MLB I’d rather see step in a play a handful of games next year than Vizquel.
Il faut d'abord durer.
by CU Adam on Nov 14, 2009 6:54 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
If fans are going to flock to The Jake en masse because Omar is on the roster as a bench player, we need to find out what else these people are dumb enough to do. And monetize the heck out of it.
Finally convinced my dad that Jeter is immensely hatable.
by westbrook on Nov 14, 2009 7:00 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Let’s be clear about one thing: Omar has always been 100% mercenary. He may love Cleveland, love the fans, love the Jake, love the Indians, love Luis Isaac (oops), whatever. But he has always been a ruthless negotiator and not terribly classy about it.
Unless he’s totally changed from his entire career pattern, it’s bottom line for this guy, and he’s going to the highest bidder. So if another club wants him and might actually go to the playoffs in 2010, they’re going to outbid us, and he won’t be playing here and probably shouldn’t be.
Having said that, the Indians might be the highest bidder. PR ain’t worth much, but Omar’s probably worth 500K. Given his low market value, we really might end up with the guy.
This is assuming he isn’t on Shapiro’s do-not-sign list for God-only-knows-what character fault.
by Jay on Nov 14, 2009 7:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This is assuming he isn’t on Shapiro’s do-not-sign list for God-only-knows-what character fault.
Bad dresser.
by odradek on Nov 14, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw him wearing green pants once at the Beachwood Mall.
by Roger Dorn on Nov 15, 2009 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
God-only-knows-what character fault.
haven’t you already listed several throughout this thread?
Before taking Pro-Acta, please consult your doctor. Do not taunt Pro-Acta.
by Ockus_NYC on Nov 15, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and might actually go to the playoffs in 2010
Call me crazy, but if there is one of those, I’d rather Omar be on that team for his sake. Not including the obvious unmentionable teams.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
by USSChoo on Nov 15, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have a mountain of fond feelings for Omar. I don’t want bad things to happen to Omar. But if we do sign Omar, I would smile if he booted a few grounders and threw a couple into the first base stands more than an acceptable amount. People could shut up and we could all move on.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Nov 15, 2009 9:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don’t give the fans much credit, and they sure don’t deserve it often enough. But even I would say that that fans are smart enough not to be clamoring for the 44-year-old Omar to return in 2011, regardless what he does and where he does it in 2010.
by Jay on Nov 15, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking it would be hard for these people to use his 2010 performance to “prove” that we should have had Omar back much earlier.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Nov 16, 2009 5:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m on the Jason Donald bandwagon. If not Omar, find me Joe Inglett or Jamey Carroll— somebody who at least gets on base and could stick around for a few years if things go well.
by xrickx on Nov 16, 2009 11:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
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