Posnaski on Unfairness
Sort of long, as Posnaski tends to run. But worth it, even after reading dozens of these (and writing a few of them, depending on who is reading this).
"That team that spent $50 million more than any other team, that team with three sure Hall of Famers and as many as four others, that team that bought Milwaukee’s best pitcher and Anaheim’s best hitter and Toronto’s No. 2 starter and Boston’s favorite Idiot and the most expensive player in the history of baseball and so on, that team will win the World Series, and spray champagne on each other, and they will tell you that they won because they came together as a group and kept pulling themselves off the ground and didn’t listen to the doubters.
And then, if you are a not a Yankees fan, you will want to throw up. If you are not a Yankees fan, you are left hoping that next year the randomness of a short playoff series will get the Yankees and allow some other team to win so we can celebrate the hope of Opening Day. And that’s baseball."
Seems like as good a place as any to break the no-swearing rule. I'll restrain, but know that I'm thinking a lot of awful words.
over 2 years ago
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Yeah, I thought that was a bit unfair of Joe. Maybe, as a Clevelander, he’s just in denial.
Il faut d'abord durer.
Truthfully, I don’t even think of him as a Clevelander. I’ve seen him dump on our teams more than hype them (except the Cavs, so maybe a frontrunner.)
Or he could just be acknowledging that Cliff Lee was our best pitcher.
Really? When has he ever dumped on a Cleveland team, except that one post about Mangini? He’s always writing about his love of the Indians and Browns as a kid and his memories from Cleveland. And I’m sure he’d find it amusing that you think he might be a frontrunner since he’s always mentioning that he seems doomed to root for losing teams having grown up a Cleveland fan and been a sportswriter in Kansas City. I don’t know how anyone who’s a fan of teams from those two cities can be called a frontrunner.
I don’t read him enough to know, but I felt that way long before the Mangini article. Just not as big a fan as you seem to be.
I really want to know when else he’s dumped on Cleveland teams, because I certainly can’t think of any times he’s done that. And I read almost everything he posts on his blog. I don’t think it’s fair to say that about someone without backing it up.
by Buckeye Brad on Nov 5, 2009 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
Dumps on might not be the right term, I would say just doesn’t care about the Indians or Browns one bit, and I’m not a fan of people who drop sports allegiances even if it’s done for professional purpose.
Then we might have to just disagree. The Indians are easily his second favorite team, at least in my opinion, so I don’t think it’s fair to say he doesn’t care about them.
Steel Nick
Exactly right. He writes about them often and anyone who reads him frequently know that he still has an affection for the Indians. In fact, I read an interview with him a few weeks ago which asked him his favorite teams, and he responded all the Cleveland and KC teams. So he certainly considers himself a fan.
Here’s another example . . . just last week he had a short post about the Indians possibly hiring Bobby Valentine. He wrote that he though Valentine was exactly the type of manager that a small-market team like the Royals (or Indians) should hire. He was clearly excited that the Indians were interviewing him. Now, we can argue over whether he would have been a good manager for the Indians, but that’s not the point — the point is that Poz was happy that the Indians might hire a manager who he liked. That sounds like a fan to me.
Right. He was in that baseball-celebrity historical fantasy league and managed the Historical Indians to the World Series. Honestly, he doesn’t write much about the current happenings of the Browns and Indians because he is pretty consumed with Kansas City stuff.
Also, I just read Soul of Baseball. It was an incredible book.
There cannot be a “second favorite team”. You’re only allowed one.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
But you can like other people, spend time with other people, have other relationships. Just not the same kind of relationship.
Oh, come one. He’s a sportswriter in KC, but he’s not allowed to have a place in his heart for the team he rooted for as a kid? That’s rather unfair. I agree that normal fans shouldn’t root for more than one team, but this is a different situation.
For instance, let’s say you have a son who grows up to play pro baseball. Obviously you’re going to become a big fan of whichever team he plays for, but does that mean you’re going to completely stop caring about the Indians? I doubt it. I certainly wouldn’t, at least. Is there something wrong with that?
by Buckeye Brad on Nov 7, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I understand his professional attachment to the Royals. That’s fine with me (as if that matters). Covering a team and having that team become your favorite are two different matters.
I would guess it’s very difficult to spend almost every day covering a team, talking to the players and coaches, and writing about them without becoming attached to the team and rooting for them to do well. To expect a person to not be a fan of that team seems unfair to me.
by Buckeye Brad on Nov 7, 2009 1:11 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok. I can buy that. Would you agree it would be tantamount to cheating for you to have multiple favorite teams?
Sure, but this is different. His job gets that much better if the team he covers plays well. Media folks don’t always get to cover the teams they love. It doesn’t take anything away from the old team if they wish for the success of the new team.
I like teams that aren’t the Cleveland Indians, and I will fight you or Chuck* or anyone if they claim this diminishes my love for the Tribe.
*Note: I would rather not fight Chuck.
Steel Nick
Yeah, for a fan to have more than one favorite team is wrong. As Nick said, some teams I do like more than others, because of the players on the team or the manager or something else, and I might root for those teams in the playoffs if the Indians aren’t involved, but I’ll only ever have one favorite team.
He was just naming the team from whom the player was removed most directly. The Indians had already traded Sabathia.
by Jay on Nov 5, 2009 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I don’t understand what’s wrong with that statement. CC went to the Yankees from the Brewers, not the Indians, and he wasn’t even thinking about coming back here as far as anyone knows. After all, I’m sure Poz probably thinks of Johnny Damon more as a KC guy than a Boston guy since he covered him with the Royals when he was younger but he didn’t call Damon KC’s favorite player because he didn’t leave the Royals to go there.
Not to jump on you, but I really hate this complaint. Posnanski’s blog is something he does on the side, for free, for fun. He writes entertaining, sometimes insightful posts, and he does so frequently. He does it straight from his head and his heart, without wasting time editing.
If you want to see his more professional work, look up his columns at the Kansas City Star and now Sports Illustrated, or one of his books. The guy is an amazing writer.
Right. Saying he needs an editor for his blog is getting rather nit-picky. It’s a blog, not a newspaper article.
by Buckeye Brad on Nov 6, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree with you strongly. Looking at someone’s copy is like listening to a singer before the singing is auto-tuned: you get to see the real level of talent before it is aided or abetted by engineers or editors. There is no such thing as “wasting time editing.” It is, in my humble view, the essence of writing. Not spewing off the top of your head, and laying down unconsidered (and unfunny) witticisms. Writing “slight of hand” reveals an ignorance of English that makes a reader question why they should bother reading someone who is semi-literate at best. People trash newspaper guys like Thomas Boswell and make fun of him for trying to use sophisticated stats, and dismiss him as another MSM newspaper hack. But Boswell can write a sentence. I see little evidence of Mr. Posnanski’s ability to do the same. Newspaper guys would have a field day slashing his copy.
I know this writer is popular here but I find him smug, annoying and dimwitted. His fabled digressions scream “look at me” and his humor, such as it is, doesn’t do anything for me. Add to it the tired shtick of KC and Cleveland, and I’m ready to read Norman Chad. Actually, the illiterate comments in cleveland.com are, to me, funnier than either.
This piece is rambling, discursive, boring, and—again, to my mind—an example of a self-impressed and undisciplined writer.
You know who’s an amazing writer? Red Smith. He’s dead, so maybe he doesn’t count.
you know what makes me question whether i should bother reading something? absurd hyperbole. not typos.
by Brick. on Nov 6, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The phrase “absurd hyperbole” is an awkward over-emphasis. Your capitalization is atrocious. I doubt very much that you graduated the third grade.
by Jay on Nov 6, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions 10 recs
But now it’s on the other side of flag, isn’t it? I’ve almost flagged comments instead of reccing them. Or maybe it’s just me.
Graduated from third grade, Jay. See Bernstein’s The Careful Writer, p. 207: “…it is incorrect to say. ‘He graduated college.’”
I meant that he was calibrating the third grade with a cylinder.
by Jay on Nov 6, 2009 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
about which you were correct. i was unsuccessful.
by Brick. on Nov 6, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
One man’s hyperbole is another man’s opinion. I’ve said this before, and it’s tiresome to repeat it, but I’m not being hyperbolic.
I’m reaching here, but “literate” can be used to indicate a literary quality that is praiseworthy, rather than the more common meaning, “able to read and write.”
“Semi-literate,” based on that other meaning, would suggest that his work has approximately 50 percent of the literary quality that something praiseworthy would have.
by Jay on Nov 6, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
Come on, man, isn’t this just a bit overboard?
I genuinely understand most if not all of your criticisms, but the blog really is a different animal. He won’t be editing it, and he won’t be hiring anyone to edit it.
I have absolutely zero difficulty keeping homonyms straight, but I am not above the wrong word slipping out through my fingers as I type — and often, it’s not even a real homonym. It’s uncharitable in the extreme to assert that Joe doesn’t know the difference between “slight” and “sleight.”
I congratulate Tommy Boswell on his sentence-writing, but there ultimately is no good writing without good thinking.
And does anybody really believe that if Boswell was tech-literate enough to have a blog, that his work would be any more error-free than Pos? Blogs don’t tend to inspire intense rumination and rewrite.
Hemingway couldn’t spell for shite, so I know I’m being uncharitable when I look at improper usage. Many writers can’t spell. But I expect a writer to care enough about his or her work to distinguish between it’s/its.
All this is missing the forest for the trees. The piece is digressive, rambling, exhausting and ultimately—to me—doesn’t deliver. The reward for all the heavy lifting doesn’t cover the effort.
I think your second paragraph is a fair criticism, and this piece was pretty typical of Joe’s blog-originating work.
by Jay on Nov 6, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
Regarding slight/sleight, my point was that it’s almost certainly a typo rather than an actual spelling error. I occasionally miss a homonym or get the apostrophe wrong, but it’s never, ever because I don’t know what the proper usage is. I give Joe the benefit of the doubt on that, as I would expect a good writer to give it to me.
by Jay on Nov 6, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not like he wrote, “should of” instead of “should have.”
Jesus God, do I hate that one.
Il faut d'abord durer.
odradek, dude, lighten up. The spelling/grammar stuff smacks of schoolmarmism to me. But I’m with you on a number of your other criticisms: he’s long-winded – his stuff reads like he’s getting paid by the word. He’s in love with his own skills and goes out of his way to display them. And finally, he wrote a piece about Steinbrenner that – ah, you know what pissed me off about the Steinbrenner piece.
Any way, congrats on taking on one of LGTs sacred cows. He needs a little criticism.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
It is schoolmarmish, for which I apologize. I don’t like slovenly or self-impressed writing, that’s all. When he thinks he’s displaying his skills—when he’s riffing and thinking he’s knocking us all down—I see a guy who could spend a little more time reflecting on what he’s saying.
I really disagree with you about showing off his skills. I think any good writer knows that it’s far easier to babble on and on and on than it is to turn in a really crisp piece. I don’t know what professional writer would be impressed with something long and rambling, and I think most would agree that that tends to be the product of not having enough time to ruminate, focus on what you really are trying to say, and edit.
No. There is a good writer in there somewhere but he is burdened with a tendency “to babble on and on” and seems to be self “impressed with…long and rambling”. Whenever I read him, I get off to a good start only to have my eyes glaze over…
I think this applies to most writers who don’t have an editor, and in particular to those who have never had one.
by Jay on Nov 8, 2009 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
I guess he isn’t for everyone.
He doesn’t struggle with basic grammar or style or typographical errors, even in his raw blog posts. So doubting Posnanski’s ability to write a sentence is absurd.
Again, I’ll bring up his books, his newspaper columns, and his work for Sports Illustrated. I don’t think there is a more talented main stream sports writer out there.
You say that looking at someone’s copy is like listening to a singer before he is auto-tuned. I agree, this is why I love Joe’s blog so much. His raw talent for writing and story-telling really shines. That you can’t see this makes me doubt how much you’ve actually read of his blog or his other work, or doubt your ability to recognize a good writer. I think it is entertaining and personal, but its not intended to impress. This isn’t copy. This is just something he does for him. An extra outlet for his stories that are admittedly not intriguing enough or original enough for mass publication. Besides, how often to you get to see a journalists’ or a columnists’ copy?
We can put a finished Posnanski SI or KC Star column next to a piece by Bud Shaw, Bill Livingston, Terry Pluto, Thomas Boswell, Norman Chad. When you do that, I think Posnanski looks really good. I don’t think anything as raw as Joe’s blog is available from any of these other writers.
I don’t think there is a more talented main stream sports writer out there.
As a pure writer, Posnanski is not a stand-out and probably never will be. He’s solid, and his fans love him for the things he chooses to write about.
by Jay on Nov 6, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
I probably do overrate his pure writing talent because of his subject matter (Cleveland, baseball stats, Springsteen, baseball history, etc.), his point of view, honesty, and his ability to tell a good story. And he is just so damn prolific.
Just curious, who do you think is a standout as a pure writer in the sports world?
Tough question. My favorite writers generally haven’t been sportswriters, although they’re often interested in sports. Mike Royko was an early favorite of mine, and his column “A Very Solid Book” is one of the greatest sports articles ever written. Obviously our guy Scott Raab is a hell of a writer, but he too is not a sportswriter.
The best sportswriters generally have ended up at SI, as Joe has.
by Jay on Nov 6, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Great names, no doubt. Most of their stuff was before my time, but from what I’ve been able to find, these guys can write.
Still, I don’t see any of Posnanski’s contemporaries coming close to his skill in writing or telling a story. I mean, pointing to some of the best known sports writers in history doesn’t diminish what Joe is doing today.
Anyone see that Scott Raab is doing research for a book about the Cavs’ season in the hopes that it will be about the first championship for his hometown in 40+ years?
by The DiaTriber on Nov 6, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Says Scott will be attending the games in New York and Jersey. I am going tonight, I wish I knew what he looked like.
You would be surprised how many people here would agree with the statement, Indians fan or not.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
10 to 20 times zero is still zero.
Is this the whale section?
by sarcasmdave on Nov 6, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m saying that if ants were to have the equivalent of the World’s Strongest Man competition, they’d be using grains of rice for Atlas Stones.
Is this the whale section?
He doesn’t struggle with basic grammar or style or typographical errors, even in his raw blog posts. So doubting Posnanski’s ability to write a sentence is absurd.
Compared to the general public (cf. cleveland.com comments) he can write. I’ll even give you Bud Shaw. But compared to professional writers I don’t think so. To compare him to Boswell is kind of like comparing Julio Lugo to Cal Ripken.
I haven’t read much of his blog. I’ve been unable to stomach his books. But I can recognize a good writer when I see one.
Well, I guess “good writer” is an opinion. I think he’s a great writer, and so do many others. Your opinion isn’t any more correct than mine or anyone else’s.
Everyone has an opinion.
Not everyone is equally qualified to offer an opinion.
by Jay on Nov 6, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
If William Gass says someone is a great writer, it means more than if I say someone is a great writer. But even with all due respect to your opinion, I don’t see how Pos would be a “great” writer. That’s pretty strong stuff.
He’s an entertaining writer, who writes stuff that interests me. That’s not the same as being a great writer, but I’m glad he’s out there doing what he does. If I want great writing, I’ll go read Raymond Carver or something.
I don’t know what kind of objective measure to use here. Plenty of people think he is a great writer. He does have piles of sports columnist of the year awards and nominations from a variety of regional and national organizations. He was hired by Sports Illustrated.
He was hired by Sports Illustrated.
This is kinda like the Silver Slugger or Gold Glove or GM of the Yeat awards. I’m nonplussed.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Fair enough. Roberts is terrible.
But that doesn’t take away his other accomplishments or independently say he is a bad writer.
When a guy is as successful as Posnanksi and has the awards that Posnanski does, the burden has to flip to the naysayers to come up with reasons he shouldn’t be considered among the best sports writers of his time.
I think I have already enunciated enough reasons why I don’t think Pos should be considered one of the best sports writers of his time.
I’m more interested in how the nature of sportswriting has changed in the past ten years. There aren’t as many baseball writers. The days of the mass-market sportswriter are pretty much over. There are no Dick Youngs or Jim Murrays or Hal Leibovitzes—writers who reached great markets—because that sort of universal medium is gone, or has been supplanted by the witless clowns on ESPN. When I look at a list of recent Spinks Award winners I realize I haven’t even heard of some of them.
Maybe Pos is one of the best of his era. But if that is the case I don’t think this is a particularly good time for baseball writers.
Of guys alive and working today, I’d say Bill James is the best.
I was on your side there ordradek right up ‘til you metioned Hal Leibovitz – probably the worst Cleveland sportwriter of the 60’s and 70’s. Awful, pompous and smug.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Now you need to lighten up, Chuck. Hal was plain corny. I don’t think he was a great sportswriter, but he was influential. He was an example, like Jerome Holtzman at the Chicago Tribune, of a writer who had reach far beyond what anyone has today. Writers like Hal dominated their markets, and were almost universally read.
I’m not citing Hal or even Dick Young (who was also terrible) as examples of good sportswriters, but as examples of dominant sportswriters. Times were different. Everybody read Mike Royko’s columns.
OK, it’s my turn to ask for forgiveness, but the mere mention of Leibovitz sets my teeth on edge. Hal produced little but pompous, limb-wristed, slack-jawed drivel. Every time I read one of his referee apologias – the one semi-athletic endeavor he had a passing experience with – I was moved to drive down to 21st and Payne and choke his goddam eyes out
Leibovitz makes Paul Hoynes read like Herman Melville. In the sea of mediocrity that was the PD sports pages of the 70s, Hal was the absolute nadir.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Lebovitz won the Spink Award in 1999—and is thus a bona fide “award-winning” journalist. His refereeing included stints with the Harlem Globetrotters. He’s also has a B.S. in chemistry from Western Reserve University.
Eric Wedge was the Baseball Writers
Association of America American League Manager of the Year – and is thus a bona fide “award-winning” Major League manager. His baseball experience included stints with the Boston Red Sox and the Colorado Rockies. He’s (sic) also has a B.A. from Witchita State University where he earned All-American honors.
So what?
And come on Odie, a Harlem Globetrotters ref – really?
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I was merely citing some interesting stuff about Lebovitz. He’s a WRU grad, just like somebody on this site. I forget who. And a chem major.
I’m not defending him. He sucks. But he’s a “real Clevelander.”
Dayton was citing awards above as evidence of Posnanski’s quality. We hear the phrase “award-winning” all the time. A lot (most, probably) of awards are meaningless. Neither Wedge nor Lebovitz are great, though both are “award-winning.”
Being a ref for the Globetrotters? That prepares you for a life of writing about the Yankees. What better way to learn about the cruel world than to run up and down the court and call cheap fouls on a stooge team?
You and I seem to be the only two interested in this conversation – but, again, so what?
A coupla fine points. I note that even you are capable of an occasional error in grammar. And it must be particularly egregious for me to catch it, since I am philosophically opposed to criticizing errors in spelling and grammar. But, after all, it’s just a blog. Second, back in Lebovitz’s day, and to a lesser extend mine, Western Reserve was a completely separate entity from Case Institute of Technology. In fact it was an oil and water relationship. When I attended the newly minted CWRU, there were four "colleges". One, Adelbert College – the male school at the Arts and Crafts institution known as Western Reserve, Flora Stone Mather, or "Mather" for women, Cleveland College for the poor unfortunates who lived at home and commuted to the Western Reserve part of campus, and Case, the school the dedicated students – both dorm housed and commuter – who studied real stuff. I went to Case.
Clearly we’re in agreement about Mr. Lebovitz’s writing skills, which weren’t much. While researching Mr. Lebovitz’s history – I was trying to find one of his more boneheaded pieces – and I found this. Although it’s mostly about the owner of the Harbor Inn, but it details a brief anecdote about what a tight-ass Mr. Lebovitz was. It also reminded me of Dennis Lustig, a dwarf that usta write for the PD’s sport section. And Dan Coughlin and Chuck Heaton – hacks all, but much, much better than Mr. Lebovitz.
By the way, what do you think of our boy Scott Raab writing a book about the Cavs? I think it’s a waste of his talent – much too provincial and readership limited. His four (five?)-part piece in Esquire about the World Trade Center was a tour de force and demonstrated a writing skill that will be wasted on anything so mundane as a book about that scemo from Akron. Oh well, I guess Scott’s got mouths to feed too.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
and Case, the school the dedicated students – both dorm housed and commuter – who studied real stuff. I went to Case.
Big shocker that the school with the “dedicated” students who studied “real” things is the one Chuck attended.
by Jay on Nov 8, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Little known fact: Chuck is the only real Clevelander.
by Roger Dorn on Nov 8, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
False. Not little known.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Nov 8, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
If we ever get together in Cleveland Roger, I’ll introduce you to a coupla hunnert real Clevelanders.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Gee, Chuck, are you sure the real Clevelanders still think that you’re a real Clevelander?
by Jay on Nov 8, 2009 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
Oh fwembt, it’s about to get even better. I’m trying to finnagle a transfer to France – Provence to be precise. I’m sure I’ll get the business from the boyz back home if I end up there.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I don’t think you’ve ever been to Cleveland.
by Jay on Nov 8, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Just to prepare you, Chuck, since your last visit to France they no longer line the tarmac singing “Over There” when you board the plane.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Nov 9, 2009 5:09 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Real Clevelanders gets an automatic rec from me from now on. It makes me giggle – like “Real Americans” or “real America”.
I hear you singing this to the tune of “Young Americans”
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Nov 9, 2009 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
(1) I make a lot of mistakes. All kinds of mistakes, most of them more serious than grammatical errors. That doesn’t make Joe P. a better writer.
(2) My father went to Western Reserve.
(3) I got no beef with Raab writing about the Cavs. Someone has to explain the bizarre habitues of the Cuyahoga valley to the stunods in New York City. “He’s from there,” the agent says to the publisher.
(4) The Lustig story is great. As is the Harbor Inn. Hal didn’t hang out there, I bet.
Just an FYI among Posnanski’s piles of awards are two from Associated Press Sports Editors for best sports columnist in America (along with 21! nominations) and the Casey Award for best baseball book of 2007 (for The Soul of Baseball).
Barry Manilow won a Grammy, two Emmy’s, three American Music Awards and had five number one hits, and is considered one of the top hunnert pop artists of all time.
Never under estimate America’s appetite for shlock.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I know it’s schlock, but that’s just Manilow being Manilow.
by Jay on Nov 9, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Believe me, I realize this. The Grammys, especially, have no credibility in my mind.
Just trying to bring some semi-objectivity to the debate re: Posnanski. And the APSE awards and Casey award are pretty well-respected.
At some point, with all the evidence, the burden has to be on someone arguing that he isn’t great at what he does. But, enjoying a good story-teller or writer is a pretty subjective thing.
And this is my whole point: Friends was an extremely well done television program.
by Jay on Nov 7, 2009 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve been arguing the exact opposite of this viewpoint for years.
by afh4 on Nov 8, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
it doesn’t matter anymore. we’ve seen the filth it started out as before it was airbrushed by someone that is literate.
by Brick. on Nov 6, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
It is nice to have someone write intelligently so that I can send the link rather than my entropic blather.
by stuart dean on Nov 6, 2009 2:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
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